Selective defense

[Guest guest]

> Please note that it is largely the same crew of people here which were

> in Topical Discussions when blatant disregard and ridicule of Srila

> Prabhupada were going on.

 

Please tell me who except for Mahdusudani Radha you have in mind? Who else

is in this crew?

 

> Ekanath posted pure filth [...]

> I didn't hear any of you, who

> are now so alarmed by my rudeness, speak up then.

 

I will repeat again (but for the last time) what I wrote to you on TD after

you accused me of the same:

 

*I simply had not seen that text by Ekanath.* At the time, the conference

was getting 80 texts per day. I was not aware of his text until Praharana

objected to it and Ekanath apologized. He also took Praharana's suggestion

and changed his Pamho name to Ekkehard Lorenz, his karmi name. I will

forward you privately TD texts by me and Mahanidhi in which we have

previously strongly objected to his attitude, just to show you that sarcasm

against Srila Prabhupada is something I strongly feel about and find

unexcusable.

 

I am personally not alarmed by your rudeness, as you have not been rude to

me, but I saw it as an obstacle to discuss things objectively in this forum

or in fact to discuss them at all.

 

E.g., the issue of the Indian orphanage was raised by Isvara Prabhu in

India, then a number of devotees, from different places of the world, wrote

that ISKCON should do something about it, as this Manihara was an ISKCON

devotee and confirmed child abuser. These were Raghunath, Vipramukhya Swami,

Urmila, Ananta Purusottama, Madhumati, Hariballabha. But when Madhusudani

Radha also expressed her concern, you started to attack her that this is

just welfare work and she is trying to make a campaign for her own name,

fame and glory. That's why I wrote that your attack was selective.

 

ys, mdd

[Guest guest]

At 12:14 PM 2/25/2002 +1000, Jahnu (das) (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

> > That may be, but here I have to agree with the above; if we

> > can't even treat each other like ladies and gentlemen, how will we

> > treat each other like Vaisnavas?

>

>I agree with that, Mukunda Datta prabhu. My doubt is, should we also

>treat people like ladies and gentlemen who are not ladies and

>gentlemen?

 

I dunno; let's consult our shatra. Let's see--oh, here's one: trinad api

su-nichena, taror iva sahishnuna, amanina mana-dena kirtaniya sada harih.

So if our goal is actually kirtaniya sada harih, then we should be humble

and forbearing and offer respect to all. If we want to see how the rheoric

of love works, we should consult Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita to see how Lord

Chatianya and His associates discussed things among themselves. If our real

concern is exalting ourselves and our own conception of Krishna

consciousness, then we may be rude to those we don't consider ladies and

gentlemen.

 

I'd also like to suggest that there are other ways than raising questions

about the application of Lord Chaitanya's teachings to undermine the

potency of His movement. Another may be to use our underdeveloped

understanding of them to bludgeon those whose perspective may be different

from ours.We see this taught by the example of many of those in leadership

positions in ISKCON (and other Gaudiya missions as well, no doubt). Srila

Prabhupada, on the other hand, exhorted us to find unity in diversity.

 

I find it interesting that we tend to identify "them" as kali-chela,

rarely--if ever--ourselves. I don't mean to pick on Braja by pointing this

out; hers is just one example of a tendency I've seen over the last 33

years associating with devotees. Criticizing vaishnavas is a very dangerous

business. All shastras and all acharyas warn vigorously against it. In

1931, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati wrote the following to one of his

disciples:

Srimad-Bhagavatam has instructed us not to praise or criticize others'

nature or activities. It is said also in Sri Chaitanya-Bhagavata that one

goes to hell by criticizing others. My instruction to you is not to

criticize others, but to correct and purify yourself.

I am forced to criticize my own disciples and those who come to me

for instruction. I do not understand why you would go out of your way to

perform such a difficult task.

 

One of my interests is observing the manner in which devotees carry out

these discussions (sorry--I'm trained as a rhetorician, and this is a way

to purify that mind set). Too much of what I see (particularly in myself)

is not encouraging.

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Bill Reed wrote:

> In 1931, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati wrote the following to one of his

> disciples:

> Srimad-Bhagavatam has instructed us not to praise or criticize others'

> nature or activities. It is said also in Sri Chaitanya-Bhagavata that one

> goes to hell by criticizing others.

 

It seems his Divine grace was paraphrasing this helpful verse

(11.28.1):

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: One should neither

praise nor criticize the conditioned nature and activities of other persons.

Rather, one should see this world as simply the combination of material

nature and the enjoying souls, all based on the one Absolute Truth."

 

Notably, the verse doesn't mention Vaisnavas; it's a general principle.

So how much more should it then apply to sadhus and Vaisnavas?

 

I don't know about the Caitanya Bhagavata verse, but since today

is Sri Nitai's appearance anniversary, let's consider how Lord Caitanya

instructed Him--it might help us organize our own priorities:

 

"Listen, listen Nityananda, listen Haridasa, make My [following]

order known everywhere. Going to each and every house, beg this as alms:

'Chant "Krsna," worship Krsna, follow Krsna's instructions.' Do not speak

of anything other than this, and do not make others speak about anything

other than this. At the end of each day, please come and give me your

report."

 

In his commentary, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura clarifies Lord

Caitanya's intention by adopting His voice as follows:

 

"To chant the holy names of of Krsna, to serve Krsna by engaging

in kirtana, and to become educated in Krsna-siksa by being inclined to

service--these are the only duties of the living entities. You should not

beg anyone for anything other than to engage in these activities, and you

should not teach anyone any other subject. For the benefit of all living

entities you should throughout the day beg for the alms that I have

described to you, and in the evening you should report to Me. I will be

greatly pleased if I know that you are trying to benefit all living

entities. This is my mission."

 

 

MDd