Real Action

[Guest guest]

> > >The most unfortunate thing I've

> > >noticed is that many of the same ones who caused problems in ISKCON are

> > >now causing problems for Narayana Maharaja. Hitopadesa says one's

> > >conditional nature (svabhava) stands out above everything else, no

> > >matter how much reformation one undergoes.

> >

> > Ditto. My observation has been exactly the same.

>

> Mine too.

 

It seemed at the time that the major driving force behind this mass exodus

was, besides NM, the fact that no structured environment existed: it was

the very beginning of a 'movement'. And because there was no 'system', no

gurukulas, no temples, no ashrams, no administration, no seeming

'hierarchy', then everything seemed quite blissful - no problems = very

appealing. It was impossible for any of ISKCON's problems to exist in that

environment, because ISKCON *is* structured. Within that structure the bad

elements will always find their way to the surface, and we have to deal with

them. How we deal with them depends on our Krishna consciousness: our

maturity and experience - and our leadership.

 

It was simply a matter of time before the same problems arose in that group,

as they started to develop a more societal profile. Perhaps from their

experiences in ISKCON they can handle some of the problems that will arise

in a better way than we did. Yet I doubt very much that they will have even

a portion of the same success as ISKCON in dealing with a lot of those

issues, because they've already proven what they do in the same

circumstances - they run. That's a generalization, also, but I'd say it's a

fair one.

 

Ys

Braja Sevaki dd

[Guest guest]

> Hariballabha and her husband have been able to create a devotional climate

> in which many of these different devotees can co-exist and even inspire

> each other in spiritual life without starting turf battles. It seems like

> a great model for other parts of the world where temple congregations

> consist of members from different Vaisnava groups. Hariballbha, I'd love

> to hear more about exactly how that works in Berlin.

 

By bad propganda and "preaching" especially of our former GBC (Harikesa) all

of us had been very prejudiced of other groups including Paramadvaiti Swami

and his disciples who opened a center in Berlin in 1990. From time to time

they visited our temple and a nice relationship developed between some of

the devotees. The same with the disciples of Narayana Maharaja (we have

been celebrating the Ratha festival together in 2000).

 

When NM came to visit Berlin more than three years ago all devotees went to

his programs to get their own impression. Over the years some devotees from

Germany got initated by him. *None* of these devotee were rejected by ISKCON

for being bad elements (I find the "bad element" statement low class and it

speaks for itself). These are devotees who felt alone, disappointed and hurt

after their spiritual master left.

 

On the last Euro GBC meeting my second point for the agenda was "faith in

leadership" which aroused a heated discussion. I mentioned that *nobody*

of the GBC men came to Germany to help the devotees after Harikesa's

departure (except JPS, who then left our country after being accused of some

GBC's for collecting new disciples) nor did anyone ask about the welfare of

the devotees. However, they did ask my husband and me whether there was

any danger of losing our properties after the visit of NM.

 

Nevertheless I don't accuse any of the GBC since I realize that these

devotees are overworked and most of them sincerly serve the mission without

being interested in receiving name and fame or power. But I also understood

that one has to open one's mouth there even at the risk of being disliked

by some. To point the finger again and again to important issues which need

to be discussed and not ignored. And since it is all of us members of this

society who create this society (including the GBC), we are all faced with

the need to help to make changes possible, but not by fights, intolerance,

and black or white opinions.

 

To point the finger at others will not help nor solve any problems, nor do

we get cured by the idea of being cheated since we all followed this sick

system voluntarily for years. And we need to be in the same boat and not

waste our time discussing who is more dedicated and so on.

 

Y.s. Hariballabha dd

[Guest guest]

> From time to time

> they visited our temple and a nice relationship developed between some of

> the devotees. The same with the disciples of Narayana Maharaja (we have

> been celebrating the Ratha festival together in 2000).

 

This sounds to me as something that I wouldn't have any

difficulties identifying as -- spirituality. Not so often

found in this world of material designations and relationships,

though.

 

 

> When NM came to visit Berlin more than three years ago all devotees went

> to his programs to get their own impression. Over the years some devotees

> from Germany got initated by him. *None* of these devotee were rejected by

> ISKCON for being bad elements (I find the "bad element" statement low

> class and it speaks for itself). These are devotees who felt alone,

> disappointed and hurt after their spiritual master left.

 

As the most usual reason for "going over" to NM seems to

be: a disappointment with the current ISKCON leadership,

as well as the hopes for the new inspiration in following

on with the process of Krsna consciousness.

 

To me, this phrase "bad elements" and the allusion on MN as

rather a kind of a favorable "cleaner of ISKCON's thrush"

rather is not so surprising, coming from some of the ISKCON

leaders themselves. Own purity is never to be questioned

nor doubted, and the phenomena of many devotees leaving

their leadership over to NM is being translated on the

way to ensure self-preservation: It must not be understood

as anything wrong with them, leaders, but only with those

who loose the faith into their (leaders') qualification and

purity (or "Prabhupada", as conventionally it is always in

phrased so).

 

But that has ever been there, regardless of NM or not,

that the proof of the genuine spirituality is simply the

expression of loyalty to the ISKCON institution and the

leaders. Harikesa himself was very keen on that point, and

he was looked upon many (of us, too) for his (in)famous

definition of who a real Vaisnava is: "When you get old,

you look around and see who is still around in ISKCON along

with you -- that is a real Vaisnava." Yeah...

 

And of course, it is said that the tree of Caitanya Mahaprabhu

is always shaking so that "bad apples" may fall down and

not trouble the tree. I guess that's how those kinds of

statements with "bad elements" become an authorized spiritual

siddhanta. However, wether "Caitanya's tree" is supposed

to mean the institution of ISKCON governed by the GBC, only,

no matter what... it's an another issue.

 

Personally, all in all, I see so much more positivism in

all this NM happaning (and somebody tell me I am of negative

views!):

I understand the distribution of KC as a free market and not

perhaps a monopoly where the place is for ever secured for you

no matter of the performance. So, some market concurrence may

be healthy: You better shape up or the market might be taken

away by the more qualified ones! Or keep playing "sour grapes"

how bad goods only is what has being "cleaned" out from your

store-house.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Braja wrote:

> It was simply a matter of time before the same problems arose in that group,

> as they started to develop a more societal profile. Perhaps from their

> experiences in ISKCON they can handle some of the problems that will arise

> in a better way than we did. Yet I doubt very much that they will have even

> a portion of the same success as ISKCON in dealing with a lot of those

> issues, because they've already proven what they do in the same

> circumstances - they run. That's a generalization, also, but I'd say it's a

> fair one.

 

Yes. In Vedic literature, it is said that one's karma is written

in some subtle, indelible script on one's forehead, and only the minor

demigods entrusted as the agents of one's prarabdha-karma can read it. I

suppose this is something like the barcodes Corporations will probably be

implanting onto their clones in the evetual future. But anyway, this

notion has given rise to the proverb that "wherever you go, your forehead

goes with you."

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

At 07:09 PM 3/2/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote:

>PS. Astonishing that it came from Germany. They are know to be cold and

>rational :-)

 

Hariballabha is an astonishing person indeed; clear-headed, rational,

compassionate and warm - all at the same time.

Madhu

[Guest guest]

At 04:04 PM 3/2/2002 +1000, Braja wrote:

>It was simply a matter of time before the same problems arose in that group,

>as they started to develop a more societal profile. Perhaps from their

>experiences in ISKCON they can handle some of the problems that will arise

>in a better way than we did. Yet I doubt very much that they will have even

>a portion of the same success as ISKCON in dealing with a lot of those

>issues, because they've already proven what they do in the same

>circumstances - they run. That's a generalization, also, but I'd say it's a

>fair one.

 

Of course you'd say it's a fair one, since you made it. :-)

Others might not agree, pointing out that many of them stayed for decades

and fought the good fight, and that many of them never intended to leave

ISKCON but were forced out because they had the audacity to find someone

more appealing than most of ISKCON's leaders.

 

Babhru

[Guest guest]

At 02:50 PM 3/3/2002 +1000, Braja wrote:

>By the sounds of things, you're not too enamored by ISKCON, are you Babhru?

>I wonder if that would be a bit of a detriment to being organizer of an

>ISKCON conference? That is of course if you accept that this is an ISKCON

>conference, because I'm not sure what it's meant to be if it's not. This is

>an observation, and certainly one I'd like you to clarify, because frankly

>I'm not really interested in being on a forum with so-called ISKCON

>devotees, when all I seem to do is defend ISKCON. I'm really tired of it, so

>if you'd be completely open here I'd appreciate it.

>

>We've already seen the 'benefits' of a forum where those who are not so

>impressed with ISKCON are allowed to roam free with their thoughts. It just

>turned into an offensive quagmire, and I really don't want to be involved in

>a little replica of that. Better to shut it down completely rather than just

>pretend it's going ot be any different. A little honesty now might save a

>whole lot of distress.

 

A fair question. I've been part of ISKCON since 1969-70. I've withdrawn

from active participation in ISKCON on a couple of occasions because of the

nonsense perpetrated by its leaders. However, I've never stopped chanting

my rounds, following the principles, or sharing what little I understand of

Krishna consciousness with others. Anyone who has read more than a few of

my texts knows my confidence in ISKCON's leadership is limited. However, I

remain an ISKCON member, fully enamored of ISKCON and its mission to

propagate the teachings of Lord Chaitanya. Need a character reference? Ask

Badrinarayan, or Mukunda Maharaja, or Gunagrahi Maharaja, or anyone else

who actually knows me. For the last several years, before I moved here to

the island of Hawaii, I attended the San Diego temple's programs regularly.

I served as a member of the temple's board of directors for 2-3 years,

worshiped the temple's Govardhana-shila for about 9 years, cooked for the

Deities, gave classes regularly, at the request of Badrinarayan and the

other devotees. I've been married to the same woman for 29 years and have

always been faithful to her and to Srila Prabhupada. We raised two

daughters as devotees who, although they're in their 20s, have never

contemplated violating the regulative principles. Between us, my wife and I

have spent 20 years working in gurukulas (I started one in Hawaii that we

ran for about 5 years, and we worked at the one in Three Rivers,

California, and my wife managed the gurukula in San Diego for 7 years.),

and have no complaints against us; we get along great with all our former

students.

 

Am I what you would call a "so-called ISKCON devotee"? That's your

judgment, and frankly, I don't care what you or anyone else says. If you

think I'm out of place as organizer of this conference, I'll be happy to

withdraw. Between my job as an English professor at Hawaii Community

College, my somewhat demanding sahdana (Besides at least 16 daily rounds, I

worship a shalagrama-shila and two tiny Govardhana-shilas every morning;

You can see Them at http://www.salagram.net/sstp-Babhru.html-- I also try

to spend time each day reading bhakti-shastras.), and my other duties, I

find I don't have much time for other things. So just give me the word, and

I'm gone. I don't know whether this is, should be, or must be an "ISKCON

conference." I don't think in those terms anymore. I'm interested in

following the order of our gurus and cultivating progressive Krishna

consciousness, associating with devotees who encourage that, and doing what

I can to help others do the same. I would like to hear from the

participants, including you and Jahnu, of course, what shape you all would

like this forum to take, what purposes you would like to see it achieve.

I'm not at all attached to doing this; in fact, I, like Raghu, was about to

request that I be removed, when several devotees asked me to consider

serving as the organizer. I am not interested in supporting a forum for

gossip or vaishnava-aparadha. Over the last 33 years, I've seen devotees

come up with so many good "reasons" for slandering other devotees, and I

have seen no good come of it (this is supported by guru, sadhu, and shastra

as well). Ever.

 

How about you? How's your history--honestly? Why don't you and Jahnu serve

as organizers; then you could shape it according to your vision.

 

Aspiring to serve devotees,

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

>

> Why don't you and Jahnu serve

> as organizers; then you could shape it according to your vision.

 

I belive, the killing off the conference(s) would be more

likely scenario here. Which could be already on the way,

in a sense, as my experiences are giving me a hunch...

 

Here you have already gotten the whole list of unacceptable

occurrences on an ISKCON forum, that went both unchecked and

even encouraged: the slander of the ISKCON leadership and the

GBC, and the promotion of Narayana Maharaja. And the organizer

has already exposed himself as not "enamored by ISKCON"...

 

Too bad, too bad.

"This is the end, my only friend, the end...", as the old

good "The Doors" would say it.

 

 

 

- mnd