Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Hare Krsna! I had some discussion last few days with Sanjay Rath on what happens between death and the next re-birth, related to Vimshottari dasha. I strongly recommend devotees not to take personal instructions of him or even closely associate with him. Let us see some excerpts of his letters to me: >Now, faith comes from within and not without. There has to be something >inside that confirms this faith. It just cannot be another 'game' that >the mana is playing. If it is something within then this has to an >anubhava of the atma, and since the atma is old, very old, then it must >have tasted the 'rasa' of yoga to have such a faith. Problem is that the >mana cannot explain this experience of the atma rationally. Hence the >confusion of forms or veshas. Had the mana been associated with the atma >when it enjoyed that 'rasa lila' then the mana could have easily >explained what it is and how it is. Only those who are so close to Him to >carry the experience back to this planet can explain it. Who else can? >This is what Srila Prabhupada was trying to explain in that the >'sac-chid-ananda' body of the Lord is divine and the mana carries the >rasa of the anubhava thereby remembering everything. Even advanced yogi's >like Arjuna failed to recollect the experience as their mana could not >bear the dazzling Brahma Jyoti, what to talk of the the Lord Himself. The >mana fails to retain its indriyas in front of this Jyoti and is >destroyed. This destruction of the mana is the destruction of individual >identity, the 'I' factor we know as Ahamkara. If the 'I' factor is not >destroyed then there will be confusion of identities in subsequent births >and the mana will be confused about the new body and its identity. Anyway >this is too long a topic. Let us agree to disagree on the question of new >or old mana for the time being. This sounds very much like Mayavada philosophy to me. Then, when I was not willing to give in to his arguments, he even went so far as to criticise ISKCON. >Don't worry, I don't represent the disciplinic succession of Sri Sri >Chaitanya as that is a spiritual lineage - the Gaudiya Math represent the >lineage. I am only carrying forward the vedanga Jyotisha. > >You know the difference between the two..Veda & Vedanga. Inspite of my >telling this a hundred times you all cannot understand. There is a >difference between a Siksha & Diksha Guru. And you can be rest assured >that I will not incur that sin of giving Diksha unless I am qualified to >do so from the Gaudiya Matha or any such institution having a bonafide >parampara for diksha. Even if I am qualified, I will think a hundred >times before giving a diksha and will never participate is MASS diksha >and such things as is being done nowadays. Is that what Sri Chaitanya >taught? If you know the truth and lie, then this will be a great sin >against Mahaprabhu. If you don't know then I promise you that you will >get guidance in the nature of Pratibha from Him. I ask again - is this >mass/group diksha the right thing to do? I ask this not because I do not >know, bt because I want this question to stay in your mind. As is your >habit you will have the last word. so be it. > >In any case, be sure that I am not going to ISKCON for Diksha. My search >continues. Strange turn of events indeed - in June I had almost decided >to request Sridhar Maharaj for formal Diksha, and today I have to write >this because of the constant public hostility of the younger generation >at ISKCON. And all I wrote is that I didn't find he presents the philosophy of Sri Chaitanya correctly. It seems he really is so proud with his knowledge that he cannot hear well, and that he is scared with his name and fame after Dinanath Prabhu (and lately also Gauranga Prabhu) brought into the public his unfair dealings with his disciples. So it is better no ISKCON devotees associate with his SJC. Your servant, Dhira Krsna dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Hare Krishna, I am glad that this is coming from Dhira Krishna Prabhu who was still active on Sanjay Rath's mailing lists even after I warned him about Sanjay, but looks like that he now realized for himself what I was telling him before. > I had some discussion last few days with Sanjay Rath on what happens > between death and the next re-birth, related to Vimshottari dasha. I > strongly recommend devotees not to take personal instructions of him or > even closely associate with him. Of course, you can never take "personal" instruction from him because his is impersonalist which became quite obvious once he removed his fake "Vaishnava" cover. Whenever I had debates with him he would always accept that absolute truth is ultimately personal which those of you who have recordings of lectures from Delhi can witness, sometimes on these lecture him and me would spend all the time debating on these subjects and ultimately he would agree with me, but now he removed his covers of fake Vaishnava and it is obvious who he really is. Even if you go for Jyotish consultation to him, he'll tell you only what you want to hear, so in most of the cases his predictions are wrong and when it becomes obvious than he would twist and change them giving so many esoterical reasons for this. > Then, when I was not willing to give in to his arguments, he even went so > far as to criticise ISKCON. > > >Don't worry, I don't represent the disciplinic succession of Sri Sri > >Chaitanya as that is a spiritual lineage - the Gaudiya Math represent the > >lineage. I am only carrying forward the vedanga Jyotisha. Before when his main clients were ISKCON devotees it was Srila Prabhupada who was true representative of Lord Caitanya as he wrote in his book "Crux of Vedic Astrology" but now it looks like it is Gaudya Math when majority of clients are coming from there. I guess Hansadutta's ex. wife has her influence here, now Sanjay is her follower and she is his right hand. Knowing this and that Sanjay is now associating with other ISKCON dropouts it is clear why he is saying this. > >You know the difference between the two..Veda & Vedanga. Inspite of my > >telling this a hundred times you all cannot understand. There is a > >difference between a Siksha & Diksha Guru. And you can be rest assured > >that I will not incur that sin of giving Diksha unless I am qualified to > >do so from the Gaudiya Matha or any such institution having a bonafide > >parampara for diksha. Even if I am qualified, I will think a hundred > >times before giving a diksha and will never participate is MASS diksha > >and such things as is being done nowadays. Is that what Sri Chaitanya > >taught? If you know the truth and lie, then this will be a great sin > >against Mahaprabhu. If you don't know then I promise you that you will > >get guidance in the nature of Pratibha from Him. It is obvious that he will never give diksha to anyone because: first he knows that he is a chronic liar and as he said if he knows the truth and lies he will incur sin (not that he is worried about that because he has done that and is doing it all the time) but because other also realize that he is lying all the time and in second case because he knows that doesn't know basic things about philosophy and the Vedas so he doesn't want to embarrass himself. Every new bhakta in ISKCON could defeat him philosophically. I have to give him a credit that he is really good word juggler and sincere mayavadi who is equally offending all forms of the Lord. He can deceive innocent people with his sweet words until they realize what he is up to. He will never say that all his students from Delhi have rejected him in utter disgust after he cheated every single one of them. Also he will not mention that he has 2 police cases on his back, that he fled from Delhi to Bhuwaneshwar to avoid police arrest, that he left his wife and 2 small children and that now he has new girlfriend who is regularly visiting him there in Bhuwaneshwar. He has cheated his students from Delhi for more than $30,000 which in India is huge amount of money, by getting them into business deals and getting loan advances from his students and than of course never giving them any loans (list of his frauds is quite big, but these are main ones). > >In any case, be sure that I am not going to ISKCON for Diksha. My search > >continues. Strange turn of events indeed - in June I had almost decided > >to request Sridhar Maharaj for formal Diksha, and today I have to write > >this because of the constant public hostility of the younger generation > >at ISKCON. Here Sanjay is again referring to Sridhar Maharaja as if Sridhar Maharaja is supporting his actions and only because of "constant public hostility of the younger generation at ISKCON" (which if my prashna is correct, Sanjay here refers to myself J) he doesn't want to take initiation from Sridhar Maharaja. I am also wondering if Sridhar Maharaja would give him an initiation in any case knowing that he is heavy smoker, unsure if he is vegetarian, definitely is womanizer and also likes to drink alcohol in a company of good friends and woman. When talking to a person Sanjay likes to use third person's names to look like they support him, thinking that those persons whose name he is using will never get to know that. On many occasions he was using Sridhar Swami's name for this purpose which I also pointed out to his servant Mayapur Prabhu, but I never heard that Sridhar Swami disassociated himself from Sanjay Rath's claims. > And all I wrote is that I didn't find he presents the philosophy of Sri > Chaitanya correctly. It seems he really is so proud with his knowledge > that he cannot hear well, and that he is scared with his name and fame > after Dinanath Prabhu (and lately also Gauranga Prabhu) brought into the > public his unfair dealings with his disciples. So it is better no ISKCON > devotees associate with his SJC. It is unfortunate that those ISKCON devotees who were studying from Sanjay and after finding out from Sanjay himself that he has no Jyotish (or any other) sampradaya behind him, that he cheated his students, that he is a mayavadi, that he is a smoker, that he no spiritual sadhana.. still think that they can learn something from him and want to associate with Sanjay or his teachings. Y/s, Dnd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Dear devotees, Hare Krishna. I was immediately banned from the Vyasa list (list of SJC Gurus) as soon as my emails to Sanjay about his status became publicised. He also put me to a read/only mode on the internal email lists of SJC (Varahamihira and Srijagannath) and stopped responding to any of my emails since then (Jan 2003). My latest reply to his Mayavadi comments and belittling of Srila Prabhupada's Gita freaked him out so much (I'm reproducing the email below) that he completelt removed me from all SJC lists. I'm still a member of Vedic-Astrology, which is an open discussion forum with a lot of participants, so I think it's useful to represent bona fide Krsna conscious philosophy there (Is I don't get banned from there also) and discuss Jyotish in this vein. Dina natha prabhu pointed out the one of his devotee friend found a very good Jyotish in south India, who is expert in Jaimini Sutran and is a pukka Vaishnava as well. I'm still waiting for Dina natha prabhu to hand me the contacts so that I could start corresponding with this astrologer. It is sad that there are so many cheaters in Kali yuga, and even if one approaches with sincerity, like I believe Dina natha, Mayapur and myself did, we find out after some time that we are cheated. Really, it is only Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON which is our shelter beyond the hypocricy of this Kali yuga. Also, I did some web search on Sri Achyuta and the Panca Sakha, which turned out the be the founders of the Ativadi sampradaya. I'm attaching the file in case anyone is inetersted to read it. Your servant, Gauranga das Here is my last email in respond to Sanjay's mail: JAYA JAGANNATHA! Dear Sanjayji and others! Pranaam. I have added some comments in blue. - Sanjay Rath vedic astrology Saturday, March 29, 2003 9:02 PM Re: [vedic astrology] Birth and death ~Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya~ Dear Dhira Krsna, Other points are given below: >1. In the Gita Bhagavan says that all beings reincarnate based on 'His >will' and the time, place, parents and circumstances are all decided by >Him. So, would the mana be competent to decide or take the atma to its >next incarnation? Well, in the Gita Krsna says in chapter 8 text 6: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he will attain without fail." Who's the one who is remembering here? Of course, the Atma will remember his identity when he is completely cleansed of material contamination, yet, when he is identifying with this material body and mind, will he remember this state of being? Is it not the Mana, who then carries the Atma to its next destination? Of course, this happens by Krsna's will, but Krsna will fulfill the desire of the Atma on its travel through the material world, of course according to its karma, or merit. Rath: Quitting the body is one thing. Attaining another body is another thing. The Mana does not leave the atma until the grace of Lord Maheswara so makes it happen. It is not the Mana that carries the Atma but vice-versa. It is the Atma that carries the Mana due to its dwelling in the senses and desires. Swami Abhedananda in his experiments in London has proved that immediately after death a person continues to do such things that he desired to do most. This proves that the mana is attached to the Atma. Further, if the mana had all the power to take the Atma where-ever it pleased then no one will go to Narka-loka (actually, Tala's, Narkas are separate). Mana is the wilful doer through which the atma is enjoying this creation. Why will anyone like to go to the Tala like Patala loka?? Thus, the person is forced to go there due to the laws of Karma. I guess even Draupadi and Arjuna went there...thats a different issue. This seems to be a bit controversial here. So either the Manas (mind) continues to exist after death or is changed together with the gross body. Fisrt we should understand that the mind is one of the coverings of the soul (atma), which is material. Let me quote Bg. 8.24 and purport to make this understand: agnir jyotir ahaù çuklaù ñaë-mäsä uttaräyaëam tatra prayätä gacchanti brahma brahma-vido janäù TRANSLATION Those who know the Supreme Brahman attain that Supreme by passing away from the world during the influence of the fiery god, in the light, at an auspicious moment of the day, during the fortnight of the waxing moon, or during the six months when the sun travels in the north. PURPORT When fire, light, day and the fortnight of the moon are mentioned, it is to be understood that over all of them there are various presiding deities who make arrangements for the passage of the soul. At the time of death, the mind carries one on the path to a new life. If one leaves the body at the time designated above, either accidentally or by arrangement, it is possible for him to attain the impersonal brahmajyoti. Mystics who are advanced in yoga practice can arrange the time and place to leave the body. Others have no control—if by accident they leave at an auspicious moment, then they will not return to the cycle of birth and death, but otherwise there is every possibility that they will have to return. However, for the pure devotee in Kåñëa consciousness, there is no fear of returning, whether he leaves the body at an auspicious or inauspicious moment, by accident or arrangement. Another quote from Srimad Bhagavatam (5.11.6.): duùkhaà sukhaà vyatiriktaà ca tévraà kälopapannaà phalam ävyanakti äliìgya mäyä-racitäntarätmä sva-dehinaà saàsåti-cakra-küöaù TRANSLATION The materialistic mind covering the living entity’s soul carries it to different species of life. This is called continued material existence. Due to the mind, the living entity suffers or enjoys material distress and happiness. Being thus illusioned, the mind further creates pious and impious activities and their karma, and thus the soul becomes conditioned. PURPORT Mental activities under the influence of material nature cause happiness and distress within the material world. Being covered by illusion, the living entity eternally continues conditioned life under different designations. Such living entities are known as nitya-baddha, eternally’ conditioned. On the whole, the mind is the cause of conditioned life; therefore the entire yogic process is meant to control the mind and the senses. If the mind is controlled, the senses are automatically controlled, and therefore the soul is saved from the reactions of pious and impious activity. If the mind is engaged at the lotus feet of Lord Kåñëa (sa vai manaù kåñëa-padäravindayoù [sB 9.4.18]), the senses are automatically engaged in the Lord’s service. When the mind and senses are engaged in devotional service, the living entity naturally becomes Kåñëa conscious. As soon as one always thinks of Kåñëa, he becomes a perfect yogé, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gétä (yoginäm api sarveñäà mad-gatenäntarätmanä [bg. 6.47]). This antarätmä, the mind, is conditioned by material nature. As stated here, mäyä-racitäntarätmä sva-dehinaà saàsåti-cakra-küöaù: the mind, being most powerful, covers the living entity and puts him in the waves of material existence. Here in the sloka the term antar-atma is used, and Srila Prabhupada translates it as mind. >If the mana was attached to the atma for all times even after death, then >every person will remember the past life and existance. Not necessarily. Can one not forget his past lifes, just like you forgot now which book of KN Rao mentions this about continuing dasha? Check out the Gita chapter 4, text 5 where Krsna says that He can remember all past births, but not Arjuna, that means because Arjuna, being an Atma, forgot. When the child is in the womb, he forgets his past life, and especially during birth, which is such a horrible time. There are also souls who, due to their sinful activities, have to be taken to the narakaloka's or hells, do they not suffer because the Mana is attached to the Atma, or do you think the Atma is free from the Mana at that time? According to Srila Prabhupada's philosophy, the Mana stays attached to the Atma at all times during our journey through the material world, and only at the time of moksha will the Atma be liberated from it. Otherwise, if not the Mana, who will give remembrance of past material existance? Rath: Srila Prabhupada is right but your understanding seems to be different. The Mana is attached to the Atma during the journey through the material world. Now the question is which worlds are material and which are spiritual. The hint to this is in the two prefixes used for the gayatri mantra- One reads' Om Bhur Bhuva Svah', the other reads ' Om Bhu, Bhuva Sva, Mahar, Janah, Tapah, Satyam....Is the Satya Loka a material abode?? Yes, it is. Satyaloka is called Brahma loka in other terms, and Krishna says (Bg. 8.16): ä-brahma-bhuvanäl lokäù punar ävartino ’rjuna mäm upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate TRANSLATION From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunté, never takes birth again. PURPORT All kinds of yogés—karma, jïäna, haöha, etc.—eventually have to attain devotional perfection in bhakti-yoga, or Kåñëa consciousness, before they can go to Kåñëa’s transcendental abode and never return. Those who attain the highest material planets, the planets of the demigods, are again subjected to repeated birth and death. As persons on earth are elevated to higher planets, people on higher planets such as Brahmaloka, Candraloka and Indraloka fall down to earth. The practice of sacrifice called païcägni-vidyä, recommended in the Chändogya Upaniñad, enables one to achieve Brahmaloka, but if, on Brahmaloka, one does not cultivate Kåñëa consciousness, then he must return to earth. Those who progress in Kåñëa consciousness on the higher planets are gradually elevated to higher and higher planets and at the time of universal devastation are transferred to the eternal spiritual kingdom. Çrédhara Svämé, in his commentary on Bhagavad-gétä, quotes this verse: brahmaëä saha te sarve sampräpte pratisaïcare parasyänte kåtätmänaù praviçanti paraà padam “When there is devastation of this material universe, Brahmä and his devotees, who are constantly engaged in Kåñëa consciousness, are all transferred to the spiritual universe and to specific spiritual planets according to their desires.” So even the residents of Brahmaloka are subject to repeated birth and death, thertefore it's still a material abode. Forgeting the past is also a great gift of Bhagavan. Else if you remembered all the sins you did in the past, life itself would be impossible to live. If you remembered the relationships you had with the other atmas from another existence you would be too busy trying to correct them. this is also a blessings in disguise from Jaganatha. In fact Sri Prabhupada has written "....We may also note herein that a living entity forgets everything due to his change of body, but the Lord remembers because He does not change His sac-cid-ananda body." Thus, the loss of memory occurs when there is a change of body as Prabhupada has given the reason for this. Now I fully agree with this. Please read on. Next natural question is when does this change of body begin? Immediately after death - no this cannot be as the person continues doing what he wanted to do. The good person has to first suffer the Tala's and Narka's - here also the mana has not left else he will not be able to suffer. This is vividly described in the Bhavishya Purana in the dialogue between Sri Krishna and Yudhisthira. The good person then goes to the various heavens and enjoys the fruits of some good karma- He cannot enjoy the fruits if he does not have a mana attached. Now what happens after this is over? Does he simply come down to earth? Check also Gita chapter 15 texts 8-9: Here Krsna clearly states that the atma carries his different conceptions of life from one body to the other, as the air carries aroma's. In text 9 He states that the atma is situated in its subtle body of mind, intelligence and ego, and again takes on a body with senses according to its conceptions of life. Rath: Chapter 15 Text 8 uses the word 'utkraamati-ishvarah'. What have you understood from this? Prabhupada's translation is the gist of the matter and you are expected to read further and understand what he was trying to explain in just one sentence. Isvarah is Pasupati Siva, the lord of the body and Utkrama means to step up, rise, ascend and refers to the atma that ascends after death when it gives up the body. In fact Yudhisthira's feet did not touch the ground. Death is also called PUNYA because the atma, having suffered its sins in this Bhu-Loka, gives up the body and its 'feet do not touch the ground'. I suggest that you make a serious word-by-word reading of the Gita if you really want to understand it, and even after all these years, honestly, I don't know the Gita. Life is best spent in trying to "understand Ram and know Krishna". In hindi it is said as 'Ram ko samjho Krishna to jaano, neend se jaago O! mastano". Prabhupada has very nicely and simply translated the text 9 as 'The living entity, thus taking another gross body, obtains a certain type of ear, eye, tongue, nose and sense of touch, which are grouped about the mind.' In fact the text clearly reads 'adhisthaaya manas ca-ayam' indicating that the five indriyas mentioned afore are situated in the manas. If these gyanendruyas are going to be different and are the constituents of the mana, then is the mana not new? Does the dog have the same mind as that of a human being? In another purport, Srila Prabhupada cites Bg. 18.61.: éçvaraù sarva-bhütänäà håd-deçe ’rjuna tiñöhati bhrämayan sarva-bhütäni yanträrüòhäni mäyayä “The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.” Yantra means a machine, such as an automobile. The driver of the machine of the body is the individual soul, who is also its director or proprietor, but the supreme proprietor is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One’s body is created through the agency of mäyä (karmaëä daiva-netreëa [sB 3.31.1]), and according to one’s activities in this life, another vehicle is created, again under the supervision of daivé mäyä (daivé hy eñä guëa-mayé mama mäyä duratyayä [bg. 7.14]). At the appropriate time, one’s next body is immediately chosen, and both the individual soul and the Supersoul transfer to that particular bodily machine. This is the process of transmigration. During transmigration from one body to the next, the soul is taken away by the order carriers of Yamaräja and put into a particular type of hellish life (naraka) in order to become accustomed to the condition in which he will live in his next body. This answers the question why the soul has to go to Narakaloka, which is in fact beyond Pataala. Where has Prabhupada said that the same mana continues into the next birth? Prabhupada has given a simple, lucid and clear translation for us to read and better our lives. It is not a commentary ('Teeka') but a translation for making it simply understandable. In fact, Srila Prabhupada has given the perfect Teeka for Bhagavad-Gita,called the Bhaktivedanta Purports. My Guru Maharaja, Srila Sivarama Swami has written a whole scientific analysis proving that Srila Prabhupada's commentary is most perfectly reflecting Krishna's intentions in speaking the Gita. Please refer to www.lalonline.com for the book. For example, where you have given the meaning Pasupati Siva to the word Iswara, Srila Prabhupada clearly states in the purport to sloka 15.9: PURPORT Here the living entity is described as éçvara, the controller of his own body. If he likes, he can change his body to a higher grade, and if he likes he can move to a lower class. Minute independence is there. The change his body undergoes depends upon him. At the time of death, the consciousness he has created will carry him on to the next type of body. If he has made his consciousness like that of a cat or dog, he is sure to change to a cat’s or dog’s body. And if he has fixed his consciousness on godly qualities, he will change into the form of a demigod. And if he is in Kåñëa consciousness, he will be transferred to Kåñëaloka in the spiritual world and will associate with Kåñëa. It is a false claim that after the annihilation of this body everything is finished. The individual soul is transmigrating from one body to another, and his present body and present activities are the background of his next body. One gets a different body according to karma, and he has to quit this body in due course. It is stated here that the subtle body, which carries the conception of the next body, develops another body in the next life. This process of transmigrating from one body to another and struggling while in the body is called karñati, or struggle for existence. Bg 15.9 It seems you read another Gita or are you just quoting from your memory, having no books at all there in Jagannath Puri? Then I would advise you, to approach an Iskcon center there and go check the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is in their library. Rath: 'The Gita as it is' is readily available. There are also excellent commentaries on the Gita like the Gyaneswari. Does this have an english translation now? Anyone in the list please confirm. Maharashtra group please check on this. I don't know whether you read all that. I agree that it is necessary to do a wide reading of all works containing Krishna's teachings. >However, I do not agree to the methods employed being traditionally >inclined to the teachings of the great masters Parasara, Jaimini, Varaha, >Kalyan verma and recent Harihara etc. What is their opinion then on this relation of dasha for the present life regarding past life karma etc.? Rath: Till now the ones I have heard say that the Vimsottari dasa continues exactly where it left. Like a watch that had stopped starts ticking again. I cannot agree with this theory of two-dimensional time and it standing still!! The three clocks still progress forward, no matter how small. Best regards & have a nice day. Thank you for this nice discussion on Bhagavan but let us leave the thread here until someone sends the data. Sanjay Rath Yours, Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer gauranga (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net Jyotish Remedies: WWW.BRIHASPATI.NET Phone:+36-309-140-839 - "Dinanatha Das" <dnd (AT) dinanatha (DOT) com> "Dhira Krsna BCS" <Dhira.Krsna.BCS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Astrology" <Astrology (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Ministry of Jyotish" <Ministry.of.Jyotish (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Cc: "Jyotish Services" <Jyotish.Services (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Vedic Astrology (Symposium hosted by Shyamasundara Das)" <Vedic.Astrology (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "sateesh batas" <makara (AT) ntlworld (DOT) com> Friday, April 11, 2003 5:01 AM Re: the latest on Sanjay Rath > Hare Krishna, > > > > I am glad that this is coming from Dhira Krishna Prabhu who was still active > on Sanjay Rath's mailing lists even after I warned him about Sanjay, but > looks like that he now realized for himself what I was telling him before. > > > > > I had some discussion last few days with Sanjay Rath on what happens > > between death and the next re-birth, related to Vimshottari dasha. I > > strongly recommend devotees not to take personal instructions of him or > > even closely associate with him. > > > > Of course, you can never take "personal" instruction from him because his is > impersonalist which became quite obvious once he removed his fake > "Vaishnava" cover. Whenever I had debates with him he would always accept > that absolute truth is ultimately personal which those of you who have > recordings of lectures from Delhi can witness, sometimes on these lecture > him and me would spend all the time debating on these subjects and > ultimately he would agree with me, but now he removed his covers of fake > Vaishnava and it is obvious who he really is. Even if you go for Jyotish > consultation to him, he'll tell you only what you want to hear, so in most > of the cases his predictions are wrong and when it becomes obvious than he > would twist and change them giving so many esoterical reasons for this. > > > > > Then, when I was not willing to give in to his arguments, he even went so > > far as to criticise ISKCON. > > > > >Don't worry, I don't represent the disciplinic succession of Sri Sri > > >Chaitanya as that is a spiritual lineage - the Gaudiya Math represent the > > >lineage. I am only carrying forward the vedanga Jyotisha. > > > > Before when his main clients were ISKCON devotees it was Srila Prabhupada > who was true representative of Lord Caitanya as he wrote in his book "Crux > of Vedic Astrology" but now it looks like it is Gaudya Math when majority of > clients are coming from there. I guess Hansadutta's ex. wife has her > influence here, now Sanjay is her follower and she is his right hand. > Knowing this and that Sanjay is now associating with other ISKCON dropouts > it is clear why he is saying this. > > > > >You know the difference between the two..Veda & Vedanga. Inspite of my > > >telling this a hundred times you all cannot understand. There is a > > >difference between a Siksha & Diksha Guru. And you can be rest assured > > >that I will not incur that sin of giving Diksha unless I am qualified to > > >do so from the Gaudiya Matha or any such institution having a bonafide > > >parampara for diksha. Even if I am qualified, I will think a hundred > > >times before giving a diksha and will never participate is MASS diksha > > >and such things as is being done nowadays. Is that what Sri Chaitanya > > >taught? If you know the truth and lie, then this will be a great sin > > >against Mahaprabhu. If you don't know then I promise you that you will > > >get guidance in the nature of Pratibha from Him. > > > > It is obvious that he will never give diksha to anyone because: first he > knows that he is a chronic liar and as he said if he knows the truth and > lies he will incur sin (not that he is worried about that because he has > done that and is doing it all the time) but because other also realize that > he is lying all the time and in second case because he knows that doesn't > know basic things about philosophy and the Vedas so he doesn't want to > embarrass himself. Every new bhakta in ISKCON could defeat him > philosophically. I have to give him a credit that he is really good word > juggler and sincere mayavadi who is equally offending all forms of the Lord. > He can deceive innocent people with his sweet words until they realize what > he is up to. He will never say that all his students from Delhi have > rejected him in utter disgust after he cheated every single one of them. > Also he will not mention that he has 2 police cases on his back, that he > fled from Delhi to Bhuwaneshwar to avoid police arrest, that he left his > wife and 2 small children and that now he has new girlfriend who is > regularly visiting him there in Bhuwaneshwar. He has cheated his students > from Delhi for more than $30,000 which in India is huge amount of money, by > getting them into business deals and getting loan advances from his students > and than of course never giving them any loans (list of his frauds is quite > big, but these are main ones). > > > > >In any case, be sure that I am not going to ISKCON for Diksha. My search > > >continues. Strange turn of events indeed - in June I had almost decided > > >to request Sridhar Maharaj for formal Diksha, and today I have to write > > >this because of the constant public hostility of the younger generation > > >at ISKCON. > > > > Here Sanjay is again referring to Sridhar Maharaja as if Sridhar Maharaja is > supporting his actions and only because of "constant public hostility of the > younger generation at ISKCON" (which if my prashna is correct, Sanjay here > refers to myself J) he doesn't want to take initiation from Sridhar > Maharaja. I am also wondering if Sridhar Maharaja would give him an > initiation in any case knowing that he is heavy smoker, unsure if he is > vegetarian, definitely is womanizer and also likes to drink alcohol in a > company of good friends and woman. > > When talking to a person Sanjay likes to use third person's names to look > like they support him, thinking that those persons whose name he is using > will never get to know that. On many occasions he was using Sridhar Swami's > name for this purpose which I also pointed out to his servant Mayapur > Prabhu, but I never heard that Sridhar Swami disassociated himself from > Sanjay Rath's claims. > > > And all I wrote is that I didn't find he presents the philosophy of Sri > > Chaitanya correctly. It seems he really is so proud with his knowledge > > that he cannot hear well, and that he is scared with his name and fame > > after Dinanath Prabhu (and lately also Gauranga Prabhu) brought into the > > public his unfair dealings with his disciples. So it is better no ISKCON > > devotees associate with his SJC. > > > It is unfortunate that those ISKCON devotees who were studying from Sanjay > and after finding out from Sanjay himself that he has no Jyotish (or any > other) sampradaya behind him, that he cheated his students, that he is a > mayavadi, that he is a smoker, that he no spiritual sadhana.. still think > that they can learn something from him and want to associate with Sanjay or > his teachings. > > > > Y/s, > > Dnd. > > > > > > > > ---- > PrimPosta e-mail egy eletre! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Dinantha Said: > Hare Krishna, > > > > I am glad that this is coming from Dhira Krishna Prabhu who was still > active on Sanjay Rath's mailing lists even after I warned him about > Sanjay, but looks like that he now realized for himself what I was telling > him before. > > > > > I had some discussion last few days with Sanjay Rath on what happens > > between death and the next re-birth, related to Vimshottari dasha. I > > strongly recommend devotees not to take personal instructions of him or > > even closely associate with him. > > > > Of course, you can never take "personal" instruction from him because his > is impersonalist which became quite obvious once he removed his fake > "Vaishnava" cover. Whenever I had debates with him he would always accept > that absolute truth is ultimately personal which those of you who have > recordings of lectures from Delhi can witness, sometimes on these lecture > him and me would spend all the time debating on these subjects and > ultimately he would agree with me, but now he removed his covers of fake > Vaishnava and it is obvious who he really is. Even if you go for Jyotish > consultation to him, he'll tell you only what you want to hear, so in most > of the cases his predictions are wrong and when it becomes obvious than he > would twist and change them giving so many esoterical reasons for this. > > Dear Maharajas, Prabhus, and Matajis; Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Bhakta-vigna-vinasa Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya! I didn't want to comment right away on the texts revealing the true nature of Sanjay Rath (SR) until more came out from his former ISKCON students lest I be misconstrued as being envious of Mr. Rath or having a grudge against him. But now that a 3rd disenchanted student has also said something I will now say a few words. I recall that when I first heard of Sanjaya's claims, that were echoed by his students like Gauranga Dasa, that Sanjaya came in the only legitimate Jyotish Parampara because he was coming in direct lineage from Acyutananda Dasa, a member of the famed Pancasakha (five friends) who were intimate associates of Lord Caitanya I was very suspicious. I thought to myself "if Acyutananda Dasa was an intimate associate of Lord Caitanya and was inspired to do jyotish from Him why have we not heard of him before? Why is he not mentioned in the Caitanya Caritamrita? After all His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada was a famed Jyotisha, he was from Puri and above all he wrote a commentary on CC in Bengali that Srila Prabhupada heavily quoted; why he didn't mention this Acyutananda Dasa if he was so close to Lord Caitanya? Why this Acyutananda Dasa is not mentioned in Gaura-ganodesha Dipika or other authentic Vaisnava texts?" This got me to be very suspicious. Also, if the Acyutananda Dasa is coming in the Parampara from Lord Caitanya and Sanjay Rath is in the parampara from Acyutananda Dasa then why did the writings of Sanjay Rath contain so much utter nonsense that is unacceptable to anyone conversant with Gaudiya Vaisnavism or any other branch of Vaisnavism? For example Sanjay Rath's writings and books are rampant with mayavada ideas. He glorifies known mayavadis like Vivikananda. He prolifically recommends worship of demi-gods in his texts especially his book on remedial measures. Either this Acyutananda Dasa was bogus or a mayavadi or sahajiya; or Sanjay Rath was; or they both (SR and AD) were. So over a year ago I started to make inquiries into this (see separate letter to Braja Hari dasa a devotee from Orissa) and my worst fears were confirmed. Acyutananda Dasa is not an intimate associate of Lord Caitanya but rather a Sahajiya or perhaps more properly he is termed as a Jnana-Misra Bhakta. And we all know that in Vaisnava circles this means that he was an impersonalist, a mayavadi. But more was to be revealed the deeper I dug. Last November I returned to India for the first time in 20 years (it was fantastic, I recommend all devotees to go and visit the various Holy places) and stayed for almost 4 months. Among other things I was making contact with senior astrologers who had expertise in special areas of jyotish that I was interested in and I was fortunate enough to have met several that fit the bill perfectly. Anyway, part of the trip brought me to Bhubaneshvara where I stayed for several days. I wanted to find out as much as possible about Acyutananda Dasa, the pancasakha and the type of Jyotish that Acyutananda Dasa practiced. Though I didn't find out everything that could possibly be found out I did find out some very interesting things and made some very good contacts and will be returning for more inquiries. It seems that everyone just took what Sanjay Rath said at face value. But when I got to Orissa I soon found out that things were not exactly the way that Sanjay Rath described them to be. First of all it became very clear that Acyutananda Dasa was not at all a close associate of Lord Caitanya nor was he a suddha Vaisnava as Sanjay Rath claimed. The following link http://tinyurl.com/9shy gives a good idea of what the panca-sakha and Acutyananda Dasa are all about. I will also send in a separate text a letter sent to me by a god-brother who wished to remain anonymous, in it is part of a quote from his Master's thesis and he has included a large list of references on the panca-sakha apasampradaya. Anyone at all familiar with Sanjay Rath's writings, especially on the net, would get the distinct impression that the Jyotish parampara coming from Acyutananda Dasa must include teachings regarding the Jaimini system of astrology. Sanjya Rath says about himself: "I am a traditional Vedic Astrologer belonging to the Bira Balabhadrapur Sasan village of Puri in Orissa, India. The tradition is traced from Sri Achyuta Dasa who was born in a Khandayat family of Orissa and later became one of the Pancha-sakha of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. My Grandfather Pundit Jagannath Rath, was the Jyotish Ratna of Orissa, India and this tradition was continued through my paternal uncle Pt. Kasinath Rath (my Diksha Guru)." http://tinyurl.com/9s1n In the above text Sanjay Rath states that the tradition coming from Acyutananda Dasa is coming through him now as his paternal uncle initiated him into it. We construe that Jaimini system must be an integral part of Acyutananda Dasa's paramapa because Sanjay Rath seriously pushes this system and has published a text on Jaimini called "Jaimini Maharishi Upadesha Sutras" claiming to unlock the mysteries of the Jaimini system. His other books and writings heavily rely on Jaimini methods and he at times alludes that Acyutananda Dasa says "such and such" about a Jaimini topic in his writings. (I am told he never actually quotes the exact text by Acyutananda Dasa so we don't know if such text actually exists or if Sanjaya Rath is making it up.) In short he is considered by his followers as one of the best astrologers in the world: "Pundit Sanjay Rath is generally acknowledged as one of the most brilliant Jyotish teachers in the world today. Hailing from Puri in Orissa, Sanjay has written numerous books on Jyotish, specializing in the Jaimini Upadesa Sutras and other esoteric works of Jyotish." http://tinyurl.com/9si7 and read sidebar. In the above it is clearly stated that Sanjay Rath specializes in Jaimini. This is all well known to anyone who knows the situation but I am just underscoring the point for those who may not be totally up to speed. Now I should say that when I first heard that Sanjay Rath, who is Orissan, was considered an expert in Jaimini, and that Jaimini jyotish was coming from Acyutananda Dasa and preserved in Orissa I was very surprised and perplexed. "Orissa" I thought, "how could Orissa be a center for Jaimini astrology?" I had first purchased Suryanarayana Rao's translation and commentary on "Jaimini Sutras" in Hyderabad in October 1977 and BV Raman's "Studies in Jaimini Astrology" on April 29, 1981 in Calcutta and read them in the early and mid 80s. They were not easy to understand as I was still mastering Parasara system (if one can ever do that). Anyway, I had read up on the system as well as various articles that were sometimes published in BV Raman's "Astrological Magazine" on Jaimini Astrology. From what I had read it was the consensus that the epicenter for Jaimini astrology was within the Brahmana agrahayanas of Andrah Pradesha. K.N. Rao also confirmed this in his book "Jaimini's Chara Dasa" p.13-16 in reference to Pandita Vemuri Ramamurty Sastri (a resident of Andrah Pradesh), whom KN Rao calls his "Known but Unseen Jaimini Guru." KN Rao refers to this great astrologer on several occasions in his writings and I will mention him later as well. In any case Orissa was never on the radar screen when it came to Jaimini astrology. So I was very surprised to hear that it was in Orissa that real astrology, with a heavy dose of Jaimini, was practiced. Considering that Sanjay Rath was specializing in Jaimini and that he came in the "authentic and bona fide" line of Acyutananda Dasa I was expecting that Orissa would be a hotbed of Jaimini astrology. But when I got to Bhubaneshvara in mid February I was astonished to find that Jaimini was unheard of for all practical purposes. I visited one senior astrologer, Mr. Narayana Rath (Rath is a common name in the jata-Brahmana community of Orissa) who specialized in KP system of astrology. He said he didn't know of any astrologers who practiced Jaimini system. I also went to Kuttack and met with head of the local Oriyan astrological society. This man publishes a monthly jyotish magazine and is very well connected to the astrological community in Orissa. He told me that once every month senior astrologers from all over Orissa come and hold a meeting presided over by him. He said 50-100 astrologers attended the monthly meeting. I asked him if he knew anyone who practiced Jaimini system? He said he didn't know anyone. I asked him if he knew of Acyutananda Dasa and he said yes, he was famous all over Orissa. This statement about Acyutananda Dasa became self-evident as everyone I met whether they knew astrology or not knew who he was. I asked him if he knew Sanjay Rath? He said he never heard of Sanjay Rath, that he was very busy and was only familiar with the real luminaries in the astrological world. I had to chuckle when I heard that. I guess he doesn't lurk on the net all day and night. What was surprising to me was that in the land of Acyutananda Dasa Jaimini astrology was not practiced. This didn't make any sense. Something was wrong here. Or maybe not, maybe Acyutananda Dasa had nothing to do with Jaimini Sutras. It sure looked that way. The next time I go he invited me to attend one of the monthly meetings and then I could inquire from the assembled Pandits if anyone knew of traditional Oriyan jyotish methods (particularly those of Acyutananda Dasa) or of Jaimini astrology. It should prove to be interesting. Anyway, so far it doesn't look at all good regarding the relationship between Jaimini and Acyutananda Dasa. I mean everyone knows of Acyutananda Dasa but Jaimini astrology is known in name only among the native astrologers. Coming back to Mr. Narayana Rath who I mentioned earlier as a specialist in KP system. He was quite familiar with all the local mystics and sadhakas, and introduced me to two of them. One was a Shakta who could predict the future, in fact over the phone he told both Mr. Rath and I why I was there and many other details that I recorded. The other person that Narayana Rath took me to meet was Visvanatha Rath a brahmana living close to Puri (Teaspur) who was in possession of what is locally called as a "mallika" and supposedly coming from Acyutananda Dasa himself. They are also known in ISKCON as "copper-plate readers" because some of the reading is done with the use of copper plates. The man I visited also had silver and gold plates. These "mallikas" are something like nadi-granthas but not quite the same. In nadi granthas like the Brghu or Suka nadis the astrological positions are mapped out and the reading is based on the planets. The "mallika" readings, at least the one I had, was not based on planets at all. Another senior astrologer I met later (from Chennia) told me that he and his friends classified nadis into 2 groups "mantra and tantra" nadis. Mantra nadis didn't mention planets but just gave predictions whereas tantra nadis mentioned planets. I told him that I thought 'tantra" was a misnomer and they should be called "graha" nadis instead because they were based on grahas. It seems that mantra nadis are more akin to what we would call "chanelling." For more information on the Mallikas aka Pothi see the following link: http://tinyurl.com/9shg The reading that I got from this mallika reader was a bit confusing and the two translators could not agree on what he was saying. One thing was evident and that was that he didn't use planets. This I found odd because Acyutananda Dasa is known as an astrologer. One interesting point that I heard from several of the senior astrologers and that was that a Shakta was the best Vaisnava because when one worships Devi (Durga) without material desire then She is actually Radha. They were proud of this. But when I asked them if this is true then why you are sticking to Shakti acara you should be doing according to Vaisnava (satvika) agama. This they didn't like. (-P Just before I left I met a very good contact and I greatly lamented that I met him so late. Anyway, this man was very good in English being a retired English professor, so I asked him to interpret what the Mallika reader was saying. He was also a Gaudiya Vaisnava a Shyamanandi hence not prone to sahajiya and mayavadi leanings like Sanjaya Rath. He then told me an amazing thing--that on behalf of a German university he had been researching Acyutananda Dasa and his writings for the last 10 years and he was very familiar with most of the mallika readers (60 of them) and that all but 1-2 of them were fake. He listened to the tape of the reading I had made and pointed out that the translators were putting words in the mallika readers mouth and that the mallika reader himself was not reading the mallika but making things up as he went along. In other words he was not reading what was on the palm leaf but interpolating and adding things, as he was "inspired" to do. He called this cheating. He promised that when I returned he would take to me to the most authentic followers of Acyutananda Dasa who would mystically predict the future. But then again he indicated that planets were not used by them but some other siddhi was available to them. Anyway, I look forward to my next visit to Orissa where I will dig deeper into this subject. At this point it would appear that Orissa is as I had originally thought-no where on the Jaimini radar screen. I also made contact with four top level Jaimini Pandits, one in Karnataka the rest in Andrah Pradesh. Two of them had read Sanjay Rath's book on Jaimini and said it was hopelessly confused especially the last 2 adhyayas. Everyone was in agreement that Rahu could never be used as a chara-karaka unless there was a tie between planets. When I asked why they all said in reference to Atmakaraka, that the Atmakaraka is the planet that leads to Moksa while Rahu leads to samsara so it could never be Atmakara except in very special cases which seldom if ever happen. Sanjay Rath teaches that Rahu is eligible to be Atmakara just like any other planet, no special rule required. What was interesting is that they all agreed that Andrah Pradesh held the heart of Jaimini Astrology. Of the the 4 panditas 2 were quite aged (74 and 80+) and one is not long for this world. They were both past masters of Sanskrit being retired Sanskrit professors. However I was very excited that the second oldest pandit was in good health and that he had been training a successor for the last 4 years. His main student was very serious in his study of Jaimini and from him I found out a very amazing thing that both he and his guru had intimate relationship with the late Pandita Vemuri Ramamurty Sastri previously referred to by me in relation to KN Rao's unseen Jaimini Guru. It seems that the elder Pandit had learned Jaimini system from Pandita Vemuri Ramamurty Sastri himself and that the student was like the nephew of Pandita Vemuri Ramamurty Sastri. He said "like the nephew" because his father was a pancangakara (maker of pancangas) and that Pandita Vemuri Ramamurty Sastri would travel to his father's house and stay for some weeks at a time every year, so they were very close. (He told me his family had been astrologers since 1250 AD and showed me the family tree to prove it.) In any case these two men, the Guru and shishya, who had connection with Pandita Vemuri Ramamurty Sastri have a huge quantity of rare material on Jaimini system in the form of very old books, palm leaf manuscripts and even photos of palm leaf manuscripts. I personally saw it all with my own eyes as I sat in his library-ahh the smell of old bookworm eaten manuscripts is still in my memory. The shisya told me that to publish it all would take 50 volumes of 1000 pages each. I suggested that he call the book "Jaimini Jyotish Vidya Sagara" considering the mass of material they had. Some years ago I had previously written to the senior Jaimini Pandita (the Guru) to ask him to teach me Jaimini astrology. Firstly because it was evident that he was extremely learned in Jaimini system with over 50 years in the field and had published many articles on the subject and books in Sanskrit and Telegu on Jaimini. Secondly I wanted to study with him because he was a pakka Vaisnava and not some fake mayavadi-sahajiya pretending to be a devotee. He agreed to teach me but then suddenly correspondence was cut off. I was dismayed. But when I met him in person I found out why. He had gone blind so could no longer take care of correspondence but luckily for me just 2 days before my coming he had cataract surgery on one eye and would have the same done to the other eye so he would be able to see again. At that time he accepted me as his student in Jaimini and gave me a copy of his translation and commentary on Ramanujacarya's "Sri Bhashya" commentary on the Vedanta Sutras. He also gave me a copy of his nice book "Muhurta Sindu" on muhurta. I already had a copy of translation and Sanskrit commentary of Jaimini Sutras since 1994. After meeting with him and his main sisya I was very satisfied that I had found a real source of knowledge in Jaimini. I was always disturbed by Sanjay Rath's presentation, I could see he had some knowledge but at the same he repelled me because I could just feel that "something was rotten in the State of Denmark." He confused more than he clarified. But then again if one studies his chart in light the first few pages of chapter 6 of J.N. Bhasin's book "Medical Astrology" one can understand. I am sending some supplementary texts separately regarding the Pancasakha. Your humble servant Shyamasundara Dasa PS see also http://tinyurl.com/9sb7 published by Dinanatha Dasa PPS I have left out the names of certain people for various reasons, one being that I don't want them to be attacked by Sanjay Rath or his followers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 > I didn't want to comment right away on the texts revealing the true nature > of Sanjay Rath (SR) until more came out from his former ISKCON students > lest I be misconstrued as being envious of Mr. Rath or having a grudge > against him. But now that a 3rd disenchanted student has also said > something I will now say a few words. Nice one Shyama. Very diligent and investigative work, and revealing also. Your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2003 Report Share Posted April 21, 2003 > > I didn't want to comment right away on the texts revealing the true > > nature of Sanjay Rath (SR) until more came out from his former ISKCON > > students lest I be misconstrued as being envious of Mr. Rath or having a > > grudge against him. But now that a 3rd disenchanted student has also > > said something I will now say a few words. > > Nice one Shyama. Very diligent and investigative work, and revealing > also. > > Your humble servant, > Hari-sauri dasa Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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