Saving seeds

[Guest guest]

>Could somebody give me an synopsis about Fukuokas teaching or system, or

>what ever it may be called?

 

>Ys Ud

 

Well that's a broad question...

He beleives that we should all go back to natural farming methods without

any cultivation and no chemical, pesticides or herbicides and no added

compost - but I say he is using straw mulches covered with chicken manure!

That's a form of composting - besides you got to get a lot of chickens to

get enough manure to cover all your fields with it. He calls it DO NOTHING

agriculture, But he is not doing nothing, he is getting so much chicken

manure!

 

So composting methods could be construed as 'DO A LOT LESS' framing as you

don't have to cultivate.(so much)

He grows green leguminous crops as green manure as in permaculture and

regular faarming. Self seeding the crops is a nice ideal which I would like

to try on a larger scale than my London garden. In correct areas it can be

done. However to feed at the rate we need to I think intensive organic

cultivation is in order.

What he does though is he collects the seeds treats them in a certain way

and sows them again in different places. So one can let nature do so much

but again She needs some assistance if you want a heavier more dispersed

yield. It doesn't mean you are exploiting the land by getting heavey

production , as long as you replenish as much or more than you have taken

out. King Prthu exploited the earth's surface for all kinds of agricultural

crops, but this doesn't mean it was bad exploitation. (as previously

discussed).

[Guest guest]

I was just cleaning up my files when I came across this one.

 

> I have at least three times had to clean up weed invested failed plots

> where some neophyte has come in with a little knowledge and determined to

> do permaculture and still grow regular vegetables. I don't doubt that

> someone somewhere can do it, but most people will fail at it, and waste

> a lot of time and energy in the process.

 

Oh my god! Thats what I was about to do! I mean I really like what I have

read about permaculture. What I like about it is the idea that you can

replenish the soil using various grain and grass crops etc.

 

There is a lot of information regarding growing green manure crops with

grains, but I have not found anything much about growing such cover crops

with vegetables.

 

I am a rank neophyte at this, about to jump in at the deep end, and I really

dont want to be one of those people having Gosh come in, shovel in hand,

having to clean up my plot. (I guess I wont have to worry about that, as I'm

not paying his fare).

 

What I like about cover crops is their ability to stifle weeds, and preserve

soil moisture when mulched. We just had the worst drought in history here,

so water retention in the soil is important. Do you mean to say that cover

crops and vegetables dont mix?

 

We are just about to take delivery of the ' seed to seed' book. And

wherever possible we want to do our own seed saving. I understand that maybe

we will not be able to save all our seeds.

 

I should mention that while I admire the permaculture way, and eventualy

would like to fully embrace it, initialy I need to make some bucks from

veggies, (there is a good market here for them) so I can build my house, and

get some basic equipment for survival. At the same time we wil be going

organic, as naturaly as possible. In other words with minimum external

input. I just read an excellent article by John Jeavons on the role of

cereal crops in providing carbon for composting. So we will be incorporating

a bit of that too.

 

Can anyone reccomend systems of using cover crops with vegetable production,

so that the cover crops suppresses the weeds but does not stifle the

veggies. What are the fastest growing cover crops. We need quite fast

turnover.

 

I am not attached to permacluture per se, but do want to do completely

sustainable and natural farming at all costs.

 

Any information would be good. I dont want to be added to Gosh's list.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

>

> Oh my god! Thats what I was about to do! I mean I really like what I have

> read about permaculture. What I like about it is the idea that you can

> replenish the soil using various grain and grass crops etc.

 

I am no expert on permaculture and probably have a lot of mis conceptions about

it. Just my experience is that it has been neophyte gardeners who have

promoted

it, usually with the idea that somehow or other they are going to do this

shortcut system that will mean no work. The "no work" ethic has usually

resulted in failure.

 

>

> There is a lot of information regarding growing green manure crops with

> grains, but I have not found anything much about growing such cover crops

> with vegetables.

 

Green manures can be used with anything, and are an excellent tool. Something

like buckwheat can be planted after spring crops like peas, early cabbage,

carrots beets, etc. My perspective is zone 5b, northern temperate zone, but

buckwheat goes in around July 1, or even later. Also, a cover crop of turnips

can go in as late as Aug 1. Rye can be planted anytime after Aug 1 until after

frost, and still make good growth that can be turned under before planting

crops after last frost date in the spring.We are just about to take delivery of

the ' seed to seed' book. And

 

> wherever possible we want to do our own seed saving. I understand that maybe

> we will not be able to save all our seeds.

 

You have to choose nonhybrid seeds and pay attention to separating like things

by either time or space.

 

>

>

> I should mention that while I admire the permaculture way, and eventualy

> would like to fully embrace it, initialy I need to make some bucks from

> veggies, (there is a good market here for them) so I can build my house, and

> get some basic equipment for survival. At the same time we wil be going

> organic, as naturaly as possible. In other words with minimum external

> input. I just read an excellent article by John Jeavons on the role of

> cereal crops in providing carbon for composting. So we will be incorporating

> a bit of that too.

>

 

Mian thing is to go see what the older gardeners in your particular environment

have been doing successfullly. Principle of living guru, blah blah blah.

 

>

> Can anyone reccomend systems of using cover crops with vegetable production,

> so that the cover crops suppresses the weeds but does not stifle the

> veggies. What are the fastest growing cover crops. We need quite fast

> turnover.

 

This is where you get in trouble. There is no magic cover crop that will

surpress all weeds. A small clover like white dutch may be the closest thing,

but will be weey until it is established and will never be 100%.

 

We mulch for weed suppression and moisture conservation. We use black plastic

on the gourds, just because of the scale we are on, but the common mulch we

use on veggies and floweres is 4 to 6 layers of newspaper, covered with a

light

layer of hay.

 

IF you are serious about getting into self sufficiency, and have limitations

on

your time and money, buy your vegetables the first year or so and concentrate

on fruit trees, berries, and perennials like asparagus, rhubarb, comfrey,

jerusalem artichokes and the like. They take time to get established , but

the

effect is cumulative year to year, whereas veggies you start from scratch

yearly.

[Guest guest]

>Oh my god! Thats what I was about to do! I mean I really like what I have

>read about permaculture. What I like about it is the idea that you can

>replenish the soil using various grain and grass crops etc.

 

I don't like your expression. I take it you mean Krsna. As I'm sure you must

why don't you say so. I am forever telling Gurukula children off for this

and I tell them you never hear a sannyassi saying like this or senior

devotees, or when did Prabhupada ever say this.

You may find me fastidious here, but it may be suprising what is not

pleasing to some and what is not pleasing to others.

 

>Thats what I was about to do! I mean I really like what I have

>read about permaculture. What I like about it is the idea that you can

>replenish the soil using various grain and grass crops etc.

>What I like about cover crops is their ability to stifle weeds, and

>preserve soil moisture when mulched. We just had the worst drought in

>history here, so water retention in the soil is important. Do you mean to

>say that cover crops and vegetables dont mix?

 

Having looked into permaculture and many other techniques I understand your

feelings. The whole key is management technique.

Firstly time management.

This is the most important factor in paermaculture. To cite an example.

Recently I helped one devotee here mulch his entire allotment about 80m2

with (second) damaged straw. We mulched to about 15 inches deep for starters

and then this settled to about 8 incheds deep. The surrounding allotments

were abound with couch etc and other grasses. in 3 weeks the others were3

feet high and the straw had obscured everything. Then he bought his seeds.

When he showed them to me it was apparent that he had missed the growing

season and so abandoned the idea of having an allotment this year. In the

4th week some dock weeds had emerged which I proceeded to dig out also a

little couch grass had appeared.

 

So in one month the weeds were well suppressed. Don't cut them off simply

fold them over to the ground and mulch. All it would have taken is a little

time put in to weeding. They say you have to pull out couch grass.

So with a little time management on the gardeners behalf regularly one can

easily knock out the couch grass.

 

This would be best done as you remove the mulch for planting your

transplants. This is the best system if you are dealing with previously weed

infested land. Then your transplants are ahead of your weeds by a long way,

several weeks.

 

It depends on the types of weeds you have. You can indeed leave the mulch

down and make an opening where you wish to plant. In this case you may find

that slugs and snails are abound and need controlling. Best opportunity to

put in a pond. You need a large pond for a permaculture site in order to

keep down these creatures. Ducks also eat 100 pests a minute, but they

cannot eat large slugs, too slimey. Also good are hedgehogs, slow worms and

of course birds.

 

As this devotee had decided to abandon the plot for a year, he should not.

He should maintain it for the entire year until next season. a lot less

weeding than otherwise is the result. The more ferile your earth becomes the

easier it is to pull out couch grass and other weeds that are more attracted

by infertile soil.

 

The straw mulch took one afternoon to spread. And this mulch will

continually breakdown into humus, although slowly. I mixed in a large amount

of lawn mowings that happened to be coming by at the time to increase the

nitrogen content, which incidentally has to be 1.7 percent in order to

completely decompse organic matter.

 

Then, when you have all this under control you can think about expanding.

 

There are the seven layers in permaculture of the different heights of

naturally developed plants theat will succeed from one height to the next.

This is very interesting.

If you want to grow vegetables you need to stop weeds smothering them or you

will waste your time. So start small until the ground is under control. The

secret of control is to prevent neighbouring weeds seeding onto what you are

already trying to control. If you can't do this you have a much harder

battle on your hands. I think this is one reason why the Victorians had

walled gardens. They kept out pests, seeds and wind and gave support for so

many fruiting climbing plants.

 

Once you have a weed seed free environment you have the makings of a very

good project. The worst mistake anyone can make is to let weeds seed in an

uncontrolled fashion.(and then plough them up again the next season)

 

This is why I'm against ploughing- That's wastern ploughing. It's one of the

most unscientific activities along with western toilets.

Balarams plough is a different tool and serves a much different purpose...

What our bulls should be doing, or man power if you don't have any is to

simply aerate the soil on the surface and create a seed bed from suitably

weedseed free soil.

 

On highly infested land I would treat it accordingly and not even attempt to

necessarily plant anything the first year or maybe two or at least not on

land you cannot weed by hand.

 

When you can produce your first years vegetable crop then you can think

about green manuring between seasons. You can plant green crops such as

chick weed or clover(s) which as you note do both replenish soil (nitrogen)

and check weeds. The secret is with both weed mulches is that they are

specific weeds that remain lower in height than the other plants you intent

to grow. On our permaculture course in Gloustershire the lady was keeping an

acre under rotated crop in a terrace system without the actual terrace level

divider as land can tolerate as much as 15 percent incline without run off.

Above this was the bank of an enormous pond that held enough natural water

for the entire irrigation the year round and harboured the frogs and water

plants etc,. You make the upper edge of the pond where it meets the

hillside into many little peninsulars - this increases the 'edge' which is

the most productive part of the pond.

 

While your're doing all this you'll find that it is not very difficult to

make a compost. They do it in permaculture but not very accuratley.

That again is sim[ply a management technique alone. It is simply where you

put your waste rather than just leaving it to unthought out previous

arrangements - this includes all human waste as well.

 

>I understand that maybe

>we will not be able to save all our seeds.

 

No you won't especially if you eat all the plants!

 

I find you need a secure garden or field for this or someone like the wife

goes and pulls up the unkempt looking seeding plants as they may appear to

look a mess! There are details in the books of how to attach plastic

surrounds etc to cath seeds..

 

I am saving some old varieties at present as these are very valuable to keep

for future generations. But I need more space to do this an grow a food crop

 

>I should mention that while I admire the permaculture way, and eventualy

>would like to fully embrace it, initialy I need to make some bucks from

>veggies, (there is a good market here for them) so I can build my house,

>and get some basic equipment for survival. At the same time we wil be going

>organic, as naturaly as possible. In other words with minimum external

input.

 

All the clovers and chick weed are fast growers. American sweet is one of

the best.....previously this was know, I believe, as Astragalus Sinicus

which the chinese used and it was imported from there to America.

Then I would seriously suggest the establishment of a compost factory. don't

worry only a small one. By the process of making compost you can have a more

intensive scheme and less rotation worries than otherwise. I have grown

melon on rock in India and space becomes more productive by this method -

after all we are trying to feed as many people as possible are we not......

I always keep a thin mulch of partially decomposed compost on the surface of

my soil. I find this is the best way to keep encouraging all the different

types of earth worms and prevents moisture and nutrients from evaporation.

 

Worms are the invisible labour force that, on good land, are feeding crops

to an extent equal to 50 bullocks on 100 acres (Sir Albert Howard, papers on

humus, circa, 1930)

 

>Can anyone reccomend systems of using cover crops with vegetable

>production,

>so that the cover crops suppresses the weeds but does not stifle the

>veggies. What are the fastest growing cover crops. We need quite fast

>turnover

 

In your compst heap, if you leave it after first turn you can grow melons

etc., quicker as the warmth is more intense there than the ground. etc.etc.

[Guest guest]

> This is why I'm against ploughing- That's wastern ploughing. It's one of

> the most unscientific activities along with western toilets.

> Balarams plough is a different tool and serves a much different purpose...

> What our bulls should be doing, or man power if you don't have any is to

> simply aerate the soil on the surface and create a seed bed from suitably

> weedseed free soil.

 

What is the difference between western ploughing and other kinds?

[Guest guest]

>I've also done this is in my garden this summer, but I was wondering if you

>should keep this layer moist, as I would think it's not so good to let it

>dry out, is it ? I first raked a layer of compost into the top-layer, and

>then put extra compost while putting the seeds in. I did another layer of

>straw/hay mulch on top when the seedlings had some height, but indeed

>problems with slugs and larvae. In general, I was quite satisfied, but the

>soil needs improvement. I have two piles of compost running. I hope this

>will do for the upcoming season...

 

You can keep it moist, but it will keep in moisture anyway. BUT don't water

at night. Water in the morning as that will greatly help dter slugs from

patrolling at night.

 

An inch a year is good for an application combined with a good crop

rotation.

 

Make as much as you can.

 

Since you were here at the Manor we have now running 5 wire bins for the

disposal of all waste Prasad and kitchen waste, flowers etc.

They are working very well, but as they are not covered they are more

metaphylic instead of thermophylic. This is because they would get up more

heat if they had a roof on them and if they were managed better.