Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 Hare Krsna Dasi wrote: The point here is that time, alone, is not sufficient to render humanure > safe for the vegetable garden. A composting process with adequate > vegetable matter to insure the proper carbon/nitrogen ratio for > thermophilic bacteria to heat up and act to kill the pathogens is required. I would disagree. Howards findings in all over India were that around every village there was a fertile belt where the grain or other crops grew much more intensly and profusely than closer in. This he discovered was due to the places where the villagers had been going out to pass effluent. (from the 'Remaking of Village India', circa 1926. Oxford University press) But as you say for a vegetable garden's immediate use - high temperatures are necessary - therefore he developed in Indore Composting method based on the ancient practices of the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese and the dates of research go back as far as 4,700 years in Farmers of Forty Centuries (Dr. F.H. King) Remember these peoples were feeding the highest densities of population on the planet....' In the Shantung Province, a farmer with a family of twelve kept one donkey, one cow and two pigs on 2.5 acres of cultivated land a density of population at the rate of 3,072 people, 256 donkeys, 256 cattle and 512 pigs per square mile. The average of seven Chinese holdings visted (by Dr. F.H. King) gave a maintenance capacity of 1,783 people, 212 cattle or donkeys and 399 pigs - nearly 2,000 consumers and 400 rough food transformers per square mile of farmland. In comparison with these figures, the corresponding statistics for 1900 in the case of the United States per square mile were: population 61, horses and mules 30.' (from the 'Lost Science of Organic Cultivation' Brahma Publications) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 "COM: Radha Krsna (das) ACBSP GB (Great Britain)" wrote: > [Text 2715473 from COM] > > Hare Krsna Dasi wrote: > > The point here is that time, alone, is not sufficient to render humanure > > safe for the vegetable garden. A composting process with adequate > > vegetable matter to insure the proper carbon/nitrogen ratio for > > thermophilic bacteria to heat up and act to kill the pathogens is > required. > > I would disagree. > > Howards findings in all over India were that around every village there was > a fertile belt where the grain or other crops grew much more intensly and > profusely than closer in. This he discovered was due to the places where > the villagers had been going out to pass effluent. (from the 'Remaking of > Village India', circa 1926. Oxford University press) > But as you say for a vegetable garden's immediate use - high temperatures > are necessary - therefore he developed in Indore Composting method based on > the ancient practices of the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese and the dates of > research go back as far as 4,700 years in Farmers of Forty Centuries (Dr. > F.H. King) > Remember these peoples were feeding the highest densities of population on > the planet....' In the Shantung Province, a farmer with a family of twelve > kept one donkey, one cow and two pigs on 2.5 acres of cultivated land a > density of population at the rate of 3,072 people, 256 donkeys, 256 cattle > and 512 pigs per square mile. The average of seven Chinese holdings visted > (by Dr. F.H. King) gave a maintenance capacity of 1,783 people, 212 cattle > or donkeys and 399 pigs - nearly 2,000 consumers and 400 rough food > transformers per square mile of farmland. In comparison with these figures, > the corresponding statistics for 1900 in the case of the United States per > square mile were: population 61, horses and mules 30.' > > (from the 'Lost Science of Organic Cultivation' Brahma Publications) The example offered here is China -- but I don't find any mention that these people were free from parasites. Therefore, I don't find any proof that their method of recycling humanure actually did destroy all the pathogens. Rather, even as recently as 1960, pathogens from humanure were an extremely important health problem in China: Consider economist E.L. Jones's description of China, for example (*The European Miracle: Environments, Economies, and Geopolitics in the History of Europe and Asia,* 2nd ed.. p. 6): ************************************* During the Southern Sung period, when agriculture and settlement were shifting south, schistosomiasis and other worm infestations were first described, in a text of 1264 for example (Elvin:186). Faeces discharged into water made China the world reservoir of lung, liver and intestinal flukes and the Oriental schistosome, all serious causes of chronic illness (Polunin 1976:127). ....Human excreta were used as a fertiliser, and soil- transmitted helminth infestation was an occupational hazard for the farmer. According to Han Suyin (1965:390) there was ninety percent worm infestation among children in Peking in the early twentieth century and worms were visible everywhere on paths and alongside buildings. A 1948 source ascribed twenty- five per cent of deaths to faecal-borne infections. ....The aggregate weight of liver parasites in Chinese bodies is estimated as equivalent to the combined weight of two million human beings; in 1960 ninety per cent of the rural population (i.e. eighty percent of the total) were said to be infected with tapeworms; and one-third of all deaths were reported to be caused by this helminthian worm infestation (Borgstrom 1972a:108)...Combined ill-health, heat and malnutrition in the tropics have been show to cut labour productivity per man by up to eighty-seven per cent, besides raising absentee rates (Harrison 1979:604). *************************** Excellent composting requires sufficient carbon to be mixed with the nitrogen-rich human (and animal, if desired) excrement so that the compost reaches a high enough temperature to kill the pathogens. Also, Jenkins method requires that the compost be aged at least one year. Therefore, there is a combination of high heat (which he measures with thermometers) and time to kill the pathogens. Carbon does not have to come from sawdust. It can come from other plant sources, such as dried leaves, hay, etc. Many municipalities maintain some kind of mulching facilities to dispose of ground up tree limbs and shrubbery. In the town where I live, this bark mulch is free. You just go to the bark mulch dump and get as much as you like. On the other hand, if one lives in a location where plenty of water is available, but very little bark, sawdust, dried leaves, hay, etc is available, it seems like a satvik toilet would be preferable to Jenkin's method (which, although it is called "sawdust" toilet does not necessarily use sawdust). your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 1999 Report Share Posted October 27, 1999 >On the other hand, if one lives in a location where plenty of water is >available, but very little bark, sawdust, dried leaves, hay, etc is >available, >it seems like a satvik toilet would be preferable to Jenkin's method >(which, >although it is called "sawdust" toilet does not necessarily use sawdust). >your servant, >Hare Krsna dasi Yes, China as Howard describes is full of examples of the best and the worst as I have already quoted previously. In the case of toilets, as you mention, you have certainly found the worst. However, longer ago than the time you quote in certain places proper compost was made. Howard developed the Indore system from thirty years research and he came up with a system that kills pathogens etc in a much shorter time than one year. We have been growing food (with no ill effects) on this material after 90 days and 60 days in India. So yes you don't have to have such undesirable material hanging around for a year or so as in the Jenkins system. We will be investing in 3 foot thermometers for university trials in the near future to prove the system to the sceptics and the rest of the scientific world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 > > We have been growing food (with no ill effects) on this material after 90 > days and 60 days in India. So yes you don't have to have such undesirable > material hanging around for a year or so as in the Jenkins system. I wonder if it would be as safe if the people's stool was from meateaters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 1999 Report Share Posted November 10, 1999 >I wonder if it would be as safe if the people's stool was from meateaters? This is a common question and a very good one The answer is yes it would be safe. I have consulted the company who I work in conjunction with - Ecological Sciences UK, as a colleague I am visiting this week in Germany has asked are the anti-biotics destroyed that may come through in the dung of karmi fed cows? Are they taken out of the food chain? The answer is yes they are all destroyed. Even heavey metals that may appear in commercial sewage sources have their uptake reduced into plants by the thermophylic composting process. Vermiculture actually reduces the heavey metals to acceptible levels by European standards. This naturally remains as 'inorganic fertiliser' but our goal is to convert sewage from 'uncontaminated sources' into 'organic fertiliser' Our effort is with others to change the current legislation at EEC level to this effect. The missing link in the chain has been missing long enough. And we beleive it is a Vedic practise to reconstitute it to the land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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