Salvia divinorum

[Guest guest]

Anyone familiar with this herb?

 

It can produce mystical experiences. The question is: if an herb like this can produce mystical experiences, why meditate? Why not just take salvia divinorum to experience other realms of reality? Also how authentic are these experiences, really? If an herb can produce the same effects meditation does, does this mean that out of body experiences, visions, etc. only are results of brain chemistry? How can an herb affect the spirit?

[Guest guest]

In South American shamanism, they use this herb to induce trance states. Keep in mind, these shamans are very knowledgable in herbology and the metaphysical realms they journey into. They are not looking for a cheap high - they are looking for spiritual experiences - experiences that the spirits of the plants can help bring on. They use these herbs for very specific purposes and with the knowledge of what to expect.

[Guest guest]

I have plenty of experience with salvia divinorum from my pre-chanting days. I also have much experience with mushrooms, lsd, and pot. It was my experience with these drugs that led me to chanting and now that I am chanting, I know for certain that they have nothing to offer me anymore.

 

It is very easy to become reliant on these things for so called spiritual development. I used to think of my self as an explorer of consciousness. I had friends who I'm sure thought/think of themselves in the same way. There are several conclusions that I reached after much experience with these things.

 

First, they produce temporary effects and that in and of itself should be a clue as to their usefulness. Anything experienced with salvia is like something experienced in a dream- it soon dissapears. It is the same with mushrooms, lsd, and pot. It is as temporary as the body that you inhabit.

 

Secondly, they are entirely mental. I'm am not making a claim as to whether or not the effects are imaginary or not- I personally believe that they aren't simply imagination, but there is no proof. By mental, I mean that the experiences are limited to the mind. These experiences do not elevate you spiritually. If they did, then I would have accumulated some great spiritual merit, but as it is I'm very impure and can not even chant the holy names of God for long.

 

As to whether or not they should/could be used as a substitute for meditation, it really depends on what your goal is. If you wish to access spiritual realms/astral plane, then you may find some use in them under the direction of someone who knows what they're doing. I would not reccommend this however, as it is a waste of time. You should rather ask what the highest goal of human life is and how to acheive that instead of asking if you could use drugs as a substitute for meditation. Meditation is not just a thing to do. There is a purpose behind it. Make sure that your purpose is worthwhile.

 

I have a friend who's desire for meditation is only to be more calm. They very highest goal that he seeks is mystical powers. My mind sometimes proposes to me that mystical powers would be a good thing to have, but I have to ask myself why. The only reasons that I can come up with have to do with material gain and even if I did attain the highest mystical powers, what then? Will those mystical powers make me happy? Maybe I could make myself so small that I could become invisible? What good is that when I'm still subjected to birth, death, disease, and old age? Even worse, what if I become so wrapped up in my abilities that I forget Krishna?

 

Sorry for being so long winded. I hope that my rambling has helped in some way, even if it was not a perfect answer to your question.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Haribol.

[Kulapavana]

 

Anyone familiar with this herb?

 

It can produce mystical experiences. The question is: if an herb like this can produce mystical experiences, why meditate? Why not just take salvia divinorum to experience other realms of reality? Also how authentic are these experiences, really? If an herb can produce the same effects meditation does, does this mean that out of body experiences, visions, etc. only are results of brain chemistry? How can an herb affect the spirit?

 

the state of the body certainly affects our consciousness. some substances produce just the bodily "altered states" (where it is all just hallucinations or or mere bodily sensations) some others enable you to enter the subtle realms of ghosts and other such beings (which can be a risky business). that's about all these things can do for you.

 

however, these are not the goals of true meditation.

[Guest guest]

 

I have plenty of experience with salvia divinorum from my pre-chanting days. I also have much experience with mushrooms, lsd, and pot. It was my experience with these drugs that led me to chanting and now that I am chanting, I know for certain that they have nothing to offer me anymore.

 

It is very easy to become reliant on these things for so called spiritual development. I used to think of my self as an explorer of consciousness. I had friends who I'm sure thought/think of themselves in the same way. There are several conclusions that I reached after much experience with these things.

 

First, they produce temporary effects and that in and of itself should be a clue as to their usefulness. Anything experienced with salvia is like something experienced in a dream- it soon dissapears. It is the same with mushrooms, lsd, and pot. It is as temporary as the body that you inhabit.

 

Secondly, they are entirely mental. I'm am not making a claim as to whether or not the effects are imaginary or not- I personally believe that they aren't simply imagination, but there is no proof. By mental, I mean that the experiences are limited to the mind. These experiences do not elevate you spiritually. If they did, then I would have accumulated some great spiritual merit, but as it is I'm very impure and can not even chant the holy names of God for long.

 

As to whether or not they should/could be used as a substitute for meditation, it really depends on what your goal is. If you wish to access spiritual realms/astral plane, then you may find some use in them under the direction of someone who knows what they're doing. I would not reccommend this however, as it is a waste of time. You should rather ask what the highest goal of human life is and how to acheive that instead of asking if you could use drugs as a substitute for meditation. Meditation is not just a thing to do. There is a purpose behind it. Make sure that your purpose is worthwhile.

 

I have a friend who's desire for meditation is only to be more calm. They very highest goal that he seeks is mystical powers. My mind sometimes proposes to me that mystical powers would be a good thing to have, but I have to ask myself why. The only reasons that I can come up with have to do with material gain and even if I did attain the highest mystical powers, what then? Will those mystical powers make me happy? Maybe I could make myself so small that I could become invisible? What good is that when I'm still subjected to birth, death, disease, and old age? Even worse, what if I become so wrapped up in my abilities that I forget Krishna?

 

Sorry for being so long winded. I hope that my rambling has helped in some way, even if it was not a perfect answer to your question.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Haribol.

 

What's the difference between mental and spiritual? And how are these OBE's and astral projections mental and not spiritual? From what I understand, these OBE's and astral projections have to do with a displacement of consciousness, as in consciousness sort of being "kicked out" of the body. So, isn't consciousness the spirit we all talk about? If so, and consciousness is being kicked out and thus travels to other realms of reality, how does this constitute a difference between mental and spiritual? How does consciousness become mental?

 

Also, how did experience with salvia lead you to chanting?

 

As far as mystical powers or experiences are concerned, I think they are necessary for correlating your experience with that of your external reality. To compare and contrast what you've experienced and see whether the effects of that experience do bring fruit in external reality can help clear doubts as to whether you're on the right path and you're not being deluded. God-realization of course is the ultimate goal, but I think it would be presumptuous to discard mystical experiences as unnecessary when you're not even sure of the reality of God and other realms to begin with.

[Guest guest]

I should not have said that these experiences are "mental". Spiritual transcends mental. What I was trying to explain is that mystical powers in and of themselves are not worth much. BUT, i think there is a difference between mystical experiences in a general sense and mystical powers in a more specific sense. Levitating would be an example of a mystical power. A mystical experience is harder to define, but could be something like a feeling of connection with God or something along those lines. Mystical experiences can be a sign that one is progressing (still they are not a goal in and of themselves), but mystical powers may or may not occur.

 

Sure, the consciousness could leave the body. That should tell us that we are not the body. That "spirit" is us. We ARE spirit, consciousness (but not the supreme consciousness), soul, or whatever other label that you want to use. We are eternally blissful and full of knowledge in our natural condition- blissful spirit.

 

I began chanting after a powerful experience on mushrooms. I suppose it salvia that led me to mushrooms, lsd, and marijuana. I was a "good kid" and never did anything illegal so when I heard that there was a hallucinogenic herb that I could buy legally, I couldn't wait to try it. I had ben very interested in things like tarot and psychics and religion in general. Needless to say, salvia opened up a lot of doors for me in terms of what I felt comfortable with. My first experience was something i wouldn't forget. I was hooked on the psychidellics trip. Anyway, I stopped using all hallucinogens after one particular mushrooms trip. It was really a wonderful experience where I felt a oneness with everything that I saw. I felt as if the world was there for me to enjoy and that I could accomplish anything as long as I did what was necessary. An "elevated" feeling stayed with me for a week and dwindled off over the second week. I was sure that I had had some kind of spiritual breakthrougha nd had never been so content in my life. But, it faded. Looking back, it almost seems like I was in a manic state, but that was not the case.

 

So, i began looking on the internet and reading everything that I could about experiences like these which led me to several impersonalist "hindu" teachers. I decided at that point that mediation would be the only way for me to get that feeling back permanently and so I found someone to tell me what to do (I actually read several books and talked to several people and was never quite satisfied). It was by Krishna's mercy that I was introduced to several of his devotees who instructed me on how to chant and how to live in accordance to spiritual principles. Salvia divinorum, pot, mushrooms, and lsd have nothing on chanting the holy names of God. This is experiential. Is does not require much faith. If you have sincerity and you chant, you will experience the benefits.

 

Whether or not you believe in God is irrelevant. That is one of the beautiful aspects of this process. If you want to know that God exists, chant. If you want mystical powers, chant. If you feel like crap, chant. The result will be the same- purification and the development of your innate love for God.

 

Once again, I apologize for being so longwinded.

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[krishnadasa]

Just one sent, Mystics cant see the self (Soul), unless blessed by the Super soul. So what a plant can do?????????

 

hari hari bol

[Guest guest]

 

I should not have said that these experiences are "mental". Spiritual transcends mental. What I was trying to explain is that mystical powers in and of themselves are not worth much. BUT, i think there is a difference between mystical experiences in a general sense and mystical powers in a more specific sense. Levitating would be an example of a mystical power. A mystical experience is harder to define, but could be something like a feeling of connection with God or something along those lines. Mystical experiences can be a sign that one is progressing (still they are not a goal in and of themselves), but mystical powers may or may not occur.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I wouldn't call feeling connected to everything an actual mystical experience. Though it could be a product of a mystical experience, I don't think it is a mystical experience per se. To me, a mystical experience would be something like seeing a deva, or traveling to other realms, or experiencing something on a different plane of reality. Or possibly God touching or helping you in some tangible way.

 

As for mystical powers, I do believe they exist, and I believe they are worth something, as far as indicating that all of this isn't as real as we think. Sure, ultimately they are useless, as they are not the end of our spiritual search. However for the immediate moment, they are useful I believe in pointing out the unreality of this world, our own potential, and it serves more or less as signposts to our spiritual progress. That's why they are there, though at the same time they can also be deterrents to searching for God if one becomes too fascinated with them.

 

In any case, I don't understand why you put the word hindu in quotations when discussing impersonalist teachings. They are as valid as the bhakti path, and just as hindu.

 

As for chanting for purification and development of love for God, that's fine. But if you wanted to seek proof of God and proof of spiritual powers, why would you chant the Hare Krishna mantra if it doesn't provide you with what you want? That is, since you claim love for God comes through chanting, and seemingly nothing else. Seems pointless to me when that isn't the immediate goal that a person is seeking. In any case, I believe you are wrong, chanting brings about whatever experience you need to prove to yourself God exists, and whatever you need to progress spiritually.

 

As for meditation, again, I believe your conclusions that it can't bring about the same experience that resulted from salvia on a permanent basis, are again wrong. Perhaps it couldn't do anything for you, or you didn't have the patience to do it for long. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be the way you progress. However, that doesn't invalidate its purpose or its effect in the least. To each his own, however. I believe in chanting, and I believe in meditation. Each one has their own path to God, and it's up to the person and God to choose which path is right for the person.

 

In any case, again, I disagree with krishnadasa. Mystics CAN see the Self or the soul. Perhaps drug users and people using herbs aren't as LIKELY to see the Self. Perhaps seeing the Soul is dependent on the Supersoul's or God's grace. However, that doesn't invalidate other paths, nor does it invalidate the possibility drug users or herb users can see the Soul. It's up to God to bestow that blessing, and it's clearly not limited to any one path. Anyone who says it is, is a deluded fool.

[Guest guest]

I put hindu in qutes just as I would place christian or buddhist in quotes. These are bodily designations and have nothing to do with out essential nature. i could just as easily have written personalist "hindu". it doesn't matter.

 

The world around you is real. We are not living in some dream state although it can certainly feel like that sometimes. I used to really enjoy lucid dreams and the speculation that they would inspire, but just because some things are not readily apparent does not automatically make this world that we experience a non-reality. If you hit yourself with a hammer you are going to feel it regardless of whether or not you consider it and the world around you real.

 

If you are after spiritual powers, then go after spiritual powers... but the ultimate goal is love of God and loving and serving God brings real happiness. Anything else is a waste of time in my opinion.

 

"As for chanting for purification and development of love for God, that's fine. But if you wanted to seek proof of God and proof of spiritual powers, why would you chant the Hare Krishna mantra if it doesn't provide you with what you want"

 

Because it does provide you with what you want. We all want the same thing. This is fact. If I was a better student I would be able to point out where scriptures say that by chanting the names of God one does not miss out on any of the benefits of other processes. Perhaps someone else could help out here?

 

Thank you.

haribol.

[Guest guest]

Also please don't think that I misunderstand what you are saying about salvia being useful in the short term. Well I think I understand anyway... kind of like everything happens for a reason?

 

Sure, this is true, but if you need to get to the 15th floor of a building it would be best to take the elevator. In my thoughts, all of these other things like mystical powers, drugs, accumulating lots of differnt spiritual ideologies and the such is like walking up one flight of stairs, getting distracted by all of the goings on of the new floor, getting bored with that floor, climbing the stairs again and repeating the process over and over again. And, it could go on lifetime after lifetime. And even then, you aren't guaranteed to ascend. Hedonism can disguise itself in all kinds of spiritual clothes. It is safer and quicker to follow the prescribed process for this yuga which is the chanting of the holy names. I'll leave it at that.