Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Dear Lakshmi, I appreciate what you wrote in your mail. But, I want to strike a different note on the following thing you wrote: > THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates > offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for > different cultures and religions we can. [background for non-SJC people: In the SJC tradition, the devata corresponding to a planet in the 12th house from AK in navamsa is called ishta devata and supposed to take one towards moksha.] Can you please quote the verse in which Parasara advocates offering a Vishnu form for ishtadevata? I missed that verse when I studied BPHS. Parasara did associate planets with Vishnu's avataras at the beginning of BPHS. But, as far as I know, Parsara he did not talk about Vishnu's avataras when he talked about worshipping a devata based on the planets in the 12th house from karakamsa. The following verses are from the 33rd chapter in BPHS (on Karakamsa): kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthAne svabhochchasthe shubhagrahe | sad.hgatirjAyate tasya shubhalokamavApnuyAt.h || 64|| kArakAMshAd.h vyaye ketau shubhakheTayutexite | tadA tu jAyate muktiH sAyujyapadamApnuyAt.h || 65|| meshhe dhanushhi vA ketau kArakAMshAt.h vyaye sthite | shubhakheTena sandR^ishhTe sAyujapadamApnuyAt.h || 66|| vyaye cha kevale ketau pApayuktexitepi vA | na tadA jAyate muktiH shubhalokaM na pashyati || 67|| raviNA saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite | shivabhaktirbhavesyatta nirvishaMkaM dvijottama || 68|| chandreNa saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite | gauryAM bhaktirbhavettasya shAktiko jAyate naraH || 69|| shukreNa saMyute ketau kArakAMshAd.h vyayasthite | laxmyAM saJNjAyate bhaktirjAtako sau samR^iddhimAn.h || 70|| kujena saMyute ketau skandabhaktau bhavennaraH | vaishhNavo budhasauribhyAM guruNA shivabhaktimAn.h || 71|| rAhuNA tAmasIM durgAM sevate xudradevatAm.h | bhaktiH skande.atha herabhbhe shikhinA kevalena vA || 72|| kArakAMshAd.h vyaye sauriH pAparAshau yadA bhavet.h | tadA.api xudradevasya bhaktistasya na saMshayaH || 73|| Here is a rough translation: "If a benefic planet is in own sign or exaltation sign in the 12th house from karakamsa (AK in navamsa), the native will reach an auspicious loka. If Ketu is there, with benefic planet conjunction or aspect, then moksha/sayujya is obtained. If such a Ketu is in Aries or Sagittarius, aspected by a benefic planet, then sayujya (joining one of the deities - different from moksha, but almost as good) is obtained. If Ketu in 12th is alone or conjoined/aspected by malefics, the native neither gets moksha nor reaches higher lokas. If Ketu is with Sun in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Shiva is suggested without doubt. If Ketu is with Moon in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Gouri is suggested and a Shaakta is born. If Ketu is with Venus in the 12th from karakamsa, devotion to Lakshmi is caused and the native is blessed. If Ketu is with Mars, native will be a devotee of Skanda. Mercury and Saturn make one a Vaishnava, while Jupiter makes one a devotee of Shiva. In the case of Rahu, native worships tamasi form Durga or kshudra devatas. If Ketu is alone, then devotion is to Skanda or Ganesha. If Saturn in the 12th from karakamsa is in a malefic sign, then native devotes to a kshudra devata [instead of Vishnu] without doubt. " The way we find ishta devata in the SJC tradition is NOT from Parasara. It has similarities, but you will see what Parasara said above and it is not the same as what SJC tradition teaches. Moreover, there is no reference to Vishnu's avataras here. I have no disrespect for either tradition, but, as Parasara's name was brought up, I wanted to throw light on what I believe Parasara advocated. May the light of Brahman shine within, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- sohamsa, "lakshmikary" <lakshmikary wrote: > > Jaya Jagannatha, > Dear Sundeep, > Rather you making judgements on each other etc,or decided yu are > right or wrong, lets accept it is a personal thing/path ,isnt > everyone on a unique path of self realization of life,? Just because > I beleive this or that what does that mean to some catholic nun? > > THere is so much variation, but now we read Parasara advocates > offering a Vishnu form for Isthadevata , but modernizing it for > different cultures and religions we can. > The 12th rashi from AK in navamsa can have so many influences to it. > Also D-20 itself shows so much potential for variation,about ones > attitude,devotion etc. > So one is the same ! Thank-God.So there is no "ONE path" or God that > we ARE ALL rigidly following.(or not following) > Depends on our free will and individuality and our unique connection > to the universe. > Why dont you post your chart and show us your Isthadevata and > palanadeveta and give some astro analysis, as this is an astro forum. > I heard that some SJC people were compiling a number of charts of > catholics and others and showing ishtadeveta ,etc//as a good study. > For example at one time I did many buddists and inpersonalists chart > and many had Sun in the 12th house in rasi and as their ISthadeveta. > A big area of study as people from a wide variety of cultural back > ground consults an astrologer. > With regards, > Lakshmi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Dear Sanjay, > Why did Parasara talk of the Vishnu avataras in one > full chapter of BPHS. > Please bear in mind that Parasara is a Maharishi and > not like most other > Jyotisa authors because he is the author of the > VISHNU Purana and has heard > the word as indicated in his authorship (lack of > better word) of the Rig > Veda. Parasara is a Maharshi and that is why we should be careful when using his name to support a view. Given that Parasara explcitly gave Shiva, Gouri etc as the deities based on planets in the 12th from AK's amsa, it is factually incorrect to say that "Parasara advocates" that ishta devata (deity worshipped based on the 12th from AK's amsa) should be a Vishnu avatara. That is all I am saying. Having a view different from Parasara's, based on tradition, is fine, but incorrectly attributing a view to Parasara is what made me speak out on this.. I gave my freewheeling thoughts on ishta devata in another mail and you responded: > Now it is your assumption that Sri Ramakrishna's > Ista devata is Kali. > I think the Ista devata is Shiva/Rama and Sri Well, it is indeed my assumption. However, it is not an unreasonable one. When Ramakrishna finally obtained nirvikalpa samadhi, merging into the formless reality, the deity he sought permission to do so was Kaali. Also, the "form" that acted as the "final barrier" to merging with the "formless reality" was Kaali - the form that he had to cut to reach nirviklapa samadhi was that of Mother Kaali. And, yet, you claim that Kaali is not his ishta devata!!!! Hmmm... Many of us may get attached to so many deities at various stages in our lives. Can we call all of them or the first one of them as ishta devata? I don't think so. Ishta devata is that special deity, complete surrender to whom can magically transform one's life. That deity controls the native fully and acts as the link of the native to divinity. If at all one reaches savikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the deity that one experiences. If at all one reaches nirvikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the form that may act as the final barrier to merging with the formless reality. An avatara like Ramakrishna Paramahansa did so many different sadhanas and excelled in all of them. But, can all those be called ishta devatas? Kaali was the devata he surrendered to and Kaali was the devata who guided his life. Kaali was the devata he saw everywhere. Kaali was the form he had to finally overcome, in order to reach nirvikalpa samadhi. I cannot think of any other deity as Ramakrishna Paramahansa's ishta devata. The fact that he did and excelled in so many sadhanas does not take away anything from the key role of Kaali in his life, which can be played only by ishta devata. > would also do the Puja > sometimes at the Kali temple. This is the Bhakti > yoga of Lagna lord Saturn > (Kali) in 9th house....the rest is history. That is Yes, the rest is history! That is precisely why I think Kaali is his ishta devata!!! As you said below, he had "perfect Bhakti" and "complete submission" to Kaali. And you say that "the rest is history". If there was "perfect Bhakti" and "complete submission" to a deity and "the rest is history", isn't there a higher definition of ishta devata? Doesn't it tell you that Kaali is his ishta devata? Any thumb rule that shows another deity as ishta devata in this case and requires a laborious justification needs fine tuning IMHO. Please realize that I am not dismissing the tradition and the use of 12th house from AK in navamsa. I am only saying that thumbrules like "take the occupant and lord if empty" are not perfect and need finetuning. In this case, 12th has a planet, but 12th lord Jupiter is stronger. He is in Saturn's house with Saturn. Saturn shows Kaali. Jupiter shows Taara. So it was a variation of Kaali who was a little like Taara (Taarana Kaali), surrender to whom created a historical spiritual personage who not only obtained the most perfect self-realization but paved the way for self-realization in many many people for many many more generations to come!! > perfect Bhakti when the > lagna lord goes to the ninth house and is exalted > (highest ideals) and > retrograde (humility/complete submission) or in some > cases, it can be > combust in perfect oneness with the Sun which is > also superb for spiritual > awakening. > Ramakrishna achieved one-ness > with Ista devata at a very young age. Look at his > spiritual path and > spiritual master Totapuri (Advaita Vedanta) which is > the path of Shiva. Totapuri considered worship any form (including Shiva) as silly. He only believed in the formless reality. Lord Shiva Himself mastered so many different sadhanas of so many different forms, apart from union with the formless reality (Brahman). Thus, whether Totapuri followed "the path of Shiva" is debatable. Finally, one comment. Different deities are lauded in various scriptures as the givers of moksha. If one holds the view that there are subtle and supreme forms of various deities that are capable of granting moksha, it is justified. Maharshi Vasishtha even says that one can obtain moksha without worshipping any form (just as Totapuri believed). Of course, Vasishtha himself worshipped so many forms. May the light of Brahman shine within, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Dear Narasimha, Only about Ishta devata of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa - 12th from his AK in Navamsha is Sun and it receives aspect (rasi) of Venus, a Stree graha. Shiva being indicated by Sun, aspect of Venus showing the female form of Shiva can not be ruled out. So even with SJC method his Ishta devata does seem appropriate with what he in fact worshiped. However I would like to point out that Ishta devata has two connotations. First is the Devata that is ishta of the Jataka meaning that jataka may like that devata. Second being the Devata that will do Ishta (protection/good) for the Jataka. Of course being a Sanskrit Pandit, I need not tell you this, but this distinction seems to be many a times overlooked. Chandrashekhar. Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote: > Dear Sanjay, > > > Why did Parasara talk of the Vishnu avataras in one > > full chapter of BPHS. > > Please bear in mind that Parasara is a Maharishi and > > not like most other > > Jyotisa authors because he is the author of the > > VISHNU Purana and has heard > > the word as indicated in his authorship (lack of > > better word) of the Rig > > Veda. > > Parasara is a Maharshi and that is why we should be careful when using > his name to support a view. > > Given that Parasara explcitly gave Shiva, Gouri etc as the deities > based on planets in the 12th from AK's amsa, it is factually incorrect > to say that "Parasara advocates" that ishta devata (deity worshipped > based on the 12th from AK's amsa) should be a Vishnu avatara. That is > all I am saying. > > Having a view different from Parasara's, based on tradition, is fine, > but incorrectly attributing a view to Parasara is what made me speak > out on this. > > I gave my freewheeling thoughts on ishta devata in another mail and > you responded: > > > Now it is your assumption that Sri Ramakrishna's > > Ista devata is Kali. > > I think the Ista devata is Shiva/Rama and Sri > > Well, it is indeed my assumption. However, it is not an unreasonable one. > > When Ramakrishna finally obtained nirvikalpa samadhi, merging into the > formless reality, the deity he sought permission to do so was Kaali. > Also, the "form" that acted as the "final barrier" to merging with the > "formless reality" was Kaali - the form that he had to cut to reach > nirviklapa samadhi was that of Mother Kaali. > > And, yet, you claim that Kaali is not his ishta devata!!!! Hmmm... > > Many of us may get attached to so many deities at various stages in > our lives. Can we call all of them or the first one of them as ishta > devata? I don't think so. Ishta devata is that special deity, complete > surrender to whom can magically transform one's life. That deity > controls the native fully and acts as the link of the native to > divinity. If at all one reaches savikalpa samadhi, ishta devata is the > deity that one experiences. If at all one reaches nirvikalpa samadhi, > ishta devata is the form that may act as the final barrier to merging > with the formless reality. > > An avatara like Ramakrishna Paramahansa did so many different sadhanas > and excelled in all of them. But, can all those be called ishta devatas? > > Kaali was the devata he surrendered to and Kaali was the devata who > guided his life. Kaali was the devata he saw everywhere. Kaali was the > form he had to finally overcome, in order to reach nirvikalpa samadhi. > I cannot think of any other deity as Ramakrishna Paramahansa's ishta > devata. The fact that he did and excelled in so many sadhanas does not > take away anything from the key role of Kaali in his life, which can > be played only by ishta devata. > > > would also do the Puja > > sometimes at the Kali temple. This is the Bhakti > > yoga of Lagna lord Saturn > > (Kali) in 9th house....the rest is history. That is > > Yes, the rest is history! That is precisely why I think Kaali is his > ishta devata!!! As you said below, he had "perfect Bhakti" and > "complete submission" to Kaali. And you say that "the rest is > history". If there was "perfect Bhakti" and "complete submission" to a > deity and "the rest is history", isn't there a higher definition of > ishta devata? > > Doesn't it tell you that Kaali is his ishta devata? > > Any thumb rule that shows another deity as ishta devata in this case > and requires a laborious justification needs fine tuning IMHO. > > Please realize that I am not dismissing the tradition and the use of > 12th house from AK in navamsa. I am only saying that thumbrules like > "take the occupant and lord if empty" are not perfect and need finetuning. > > In this case, 12th has a planet, but 12th lord Jupiter is stronger. He > is in Saturn's house with Saturn. Saturn shows Kaali. Jupiter shows > Taara. So it was a variation of Kaali who was a little like Taara > (Taarana Kaali), surrender to whom created a historical spiritual > personage who not only obtained the most perfect self-realization but > paved the way for self-realization in many many people for many many > more generations to come!! > > > perfect Bhakti when the > > lagna lord goes to the ninth house and is exalted > > (highest ideals) and > > retrograde (humility/complete submission) or in some > > cases, it can be > > combust in perfect oneness with the Sun which is > > also superb for spiritual > > awakening. > > > > Ramakrishna achieved one-ness > > with Ista devata at a very young age. Look at his > > spiritual path and > > spiritual master Totapuri (Advaita Vedanta) which is > > the path of Shiva. > > Totapuri considered worship any form (including Shiva) as silly. He > only believed in the formless reality. > > Lord Shiva Himself mastered so many different sadhanas of so many > different forms, apart from union with the formless reality (Brahman). > Thus, whether Totapuri followed "the path of Shiva" is debatable. > > Finally, one comment. Different deities are lauded in various > scriptures as the givers of moksha. If one holds the view that there > are subtle and supreme forms of various deities that are capable of > granting moksha, it is justified. Maharshi Vasishtha even says that > one can obtain moksha without worshipping any form (just as Totapuri > believed). Of course, Vasishtha himself worshipped so many forms. > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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