Guest guest Posted January 13, 2000 Report Share Posted January 13, 2000 Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again. Todays question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen and phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities and have to go to hell? We just got our soil test, and the results are thus. pH P K OM% ExCa ExMg CEC 5.3 21 0.36 8.622 200 130 11.3 Does that mean anything to anyone? >From what little I have learned, we are going to have to lime the land. Also it seems that we will need Nitrogen, and Phosphorous. We have started making compost, but it will be months before it is ready. You cant buy compost here, so fish meal seems to be the only answer to put some goodies in the ground for hungry crops. We did just receive 10lbs of Dutch white clover seeds. Say I plant some tomato, onion / garlic, (these are good companions with Tomato, as they protect from fusarium) and say some red kidney beans in a raised bed, with some partialy composted cow manure would that be good? Later, when these crops are up somewhat, I could sow some clover. Will the clover make nitrogen available to the other crops, immediately (or in a short time)? The clover is a perennial. Does that mean it will keep springing up after it is cut? Can I leave it, and when I want to plant the next crop, just cut it back, and let it spring up as a live mulch? To do that I would assume that the clover wil take longer to recover than the newly planted crops would take to grow. Dutch clover grows to about 12 inches. Could I grow this clover in some of the beds first, before anything else, and then expect that it is going to nitrify the soil, so much that I need not add other conditioners like fish meal (apart from the lime of course)? After our land was cleared of tea, a good amount of the top soil was pushed to one side, still stuck to the tea roots. These roots were piled up about 8 feet high, and up to 12 feet wide around the edge of the land, mostly in the forest edge. There are also many random boulders in the pile each weighing anything up to several tons. So that top soil wont be easy to reach, at least not till the tea plants have broken down somewhat. Also the soil on the land, was churned up to dig out many of these large boulders. So in many places top soil and sub soil have been mixed. We are just plodding through this land, making raised beds, and seiving out the stones. It takes us about three days to make a 100 square foot bed like this (one bed each, evey three days). As the soil is all churned up it is very difficult to seperate the sub from the top soil. So our beds are kind of mixed like that. Is that going to be a problem? I think we are getting mostly top soil, but often it appears that a lot of sub soil is also being mixed in. I have been reading that a lot of the nutrients in sub soil are good, and that deep rooted plants can bring these nutrients up. So it crossed my mind that this sub soil if it is well mixed with compost, will be good. Any comments will be gratefully received. Your Servant Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2000 Report Share Posted January 13, 2000 "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > [Text 2927138 from COM] > > Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again. > > Todays question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen and > phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities and have > to go to hell? Some people will say so. I don't have a clear undersatnding of why. Is the fish meal whole fish that has been harvested specifically for fertilizer? Then I can see not doing it. Is it by products of slaughter that will end up in the landfill if not recycled as fertilizer? personally, I am not so sure that should be a problem, but I am open to opinions. There is a fish market near us, that all the byproducts of slaughter are neatly bagged up and sent to the landfill. If you go in and ask, they will give them to you. Personally, I have never done it, and have no desire to, but I don't know why in theory it should be a problem. It is there regardless if I were to use it or not. I remember you saying you didn't want to use grass clippings from a race track because of the chemicals in the grass, a wise choice. What happens to the stable litter? Is someone else already getting that? > > > We just got our soil test, and the results are thus. > > pH P K OM% ExCa ExMg CEC > > 5.3 21 0.36 8.622 200 130 11.3 > > Does that mean anything to anyone? > > >From what little I have learned, we are going to have to lime the land. I would say definitely lime, unless there is some other local practice for raising soil acidity. Otherwise, you should be thinking about crops like strawberries and potatoes taht will do okay in lower pH soils. Even regular agricultural lime can take a year or so to have an effect. Teh quicklimes are a little tricky to use, be careful if you go that route. > Also > it seems that we will need Nitrogen, and Phosphorous. > > We have started making compost, but it will be months before it is ready. > You cant buy compost here, so fish meal seems to be the only answer to put > some goodies in the ground for hungry crops. > > We did just receive 10lbs of Dutch white clover seeds. Say I plant some > tomato, onion / garlic, (these are good companions with Tomato, as they > protect from fusarium) and say some red kidney beans in a raised bed, with > some partialy composted cow manure would that be good? In that low pH, without the steer manure, you won't do much at all. > Later, when these > crops are up somewhat, I could sow some clover. Will the clover make > nitrogen available to the other crops, immediately (or in a short time)? It forms nodules of nitrogen on the roots that become available after the plant decomposes. > > > The clover is a perennial. Does that mean it will keep springing up after it > is cut? Can I leave it, and when I want to plant the next crop, just cut it > back, and let it spring up as a live mulch? To do that I would assume that > the clover wil take longer to recover than the newly planted crops would > take to grow. Dutch clover grows to about 12 inches. I have never seen anyone do this successfully, planting right into the clover. How will you do weed control in the clover itself? Please do this as a side experimental type deal first before making a strong committement to the method. Some clovers may not do well in low pH soils. > > > Could I grow this clover in some of the beds first, before anything else, > and then expect that it is going to nitrify the soil, so much that I need > not add other conditioners like fish meal (apart from the lime of course)? IF I were to use it as a green manure, I would be thinking about red clover, which is a coarser grwoing clover that will grow in lower pH soil. It is when you plow it down the nitrogen becomes more available. As the soil is all churned up it is very difficult to seperate the sub from > the top soil. So our beds are kind of mixed like that. Is that going to be a > problem? Bulldozer is quick but extremely crude. Yes, it is a problem, but you can correct it over a few years by addition of lots of organic matter. Top soil is essentially sub soil mixed with organic matter. It takes a lot. I have built numerous gardesn over the years. If you add a lot of organic matter to the soil, it takes about 3 years before you start to notice a differnce in soil structure. taht is adding about 2-4 inches deep of finished compost per year. By the 4 year the differnce starts to be dramatic. Of course that is in the Temperate zone where for 1/2 the year the ground is cold and idle. In the tropics, it could happen faster. that is also where we have heavy clay soils. Sandy soils will show a quicker response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2000 Report Share Posted January 13, 2000 "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > [Text 2927138 from COM] > > Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again. > > Todays question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen and > phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities and have > to go to hell? > > We just got our soil test, and the results are thus. > > pH P K OM% ExCa ExMg CEC > > 5.3 21 0.36 8.622 200 130 11.3 > > Does that mean anything to anyone?.... > > Your Servant > Samba das I wish that Vyapaka prabhu would step in on this one. As an organic farming certifier, I'm sure that he knows exactly what it means. What you really need is a book called **The Soul of Soil** by .....Smilie? and Joyce Gershuny. My husband gave me a copy for Christmas. This is a stupendous book. I know that Vyapaka has recommended it also. I don't have time to tell you much about it right now, but it contains every thing about this kind of information. It is so clearly written and easy and engaging to read. Don't start your varnasrama college without it. Also, speaking of books, I ordered a copy of **The Carbon Connection** on interlibrary loan. Forget that one. The man who wrote it may have understood who he was talking about, but his presentation was completely incomprehensible. I could not make head nor tail of it. Too bad he didn't have a spiritual master when he was young to advise him, "You are very intelligent about farming techniques, but your knowledge will not be very productive for the world unless you marry a woman with an MA in English to help you translate your ideas in to language that others can understand." Anyway, **Soul of Soil** would help you a lot to understand this. Also, I know Vyapaka could help you. I don't have his address handy or I would add him to this post. But possibly he's reading and will reply anyway. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 > > > "COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote: > > > [Text 2927138 from COM] > > > > Prabhus, its your resident ultra greenhorn quasi farmer here again. > > > > Todays question is this. If I put fish meal on our land, as a nitrogen > > and phosphorous source, will I be condemned by the higher authorities > > and have to go to hell? > > > > We just got our soil test, and the results are thus. > > > > pH P K OM% ExCa ExMg CEC > > > > 5.3 21 0.36 8.622 200 130 11.3 > > > > Does that mean anything to anyone?.... > > > > > Your Servant > > Samba das > > I wish that Vyapaka prabhu would step in on this one. As an organic > farming certifier, I'm sure that he knows exactly what it means. The following may of some help. Soil pH is the traditional measurement of the intensity of the acidity (or alkalinity) of your soil. A pH below 7.0 is acidic. A pH above 7.0 is alkaline. pH is measured in a soil/water paste made with distilled water. It is very useful as an index of relative acidity, but does not by itself predict lime requirement with great accuracy. Optimum pH level is 6.0 - 7.0 for home gardens. Ideal pH is 6.0 for all turf. The optimum soil pH for potatoes is 5.5 to 6.0. Lime index is a pH measurement taken in a buffered solution which has been allowed to react with the soil's acidity. It is used to measure the total exchangeable or reserve acidity in the soil. It can be thought of as a simulated liming of the soil to measure it's response to a lime application. The lime index, together with the current soil pH measured in water, is used to accurately calculate the quantity of soil acidity to be neutralized and the lime application necessary to raise your soil pH to the optimum level for the crop you plan to grow. In the past, lime index was called "buffer pH". Pounds per acre extractable Phosphorus (P) is an index or scale for determining phosphorus availability. It is not a direct measure of plant P uptake, but corresponds directly to the amount of phosphorus that plants will be able to take in from this soil over the next growing season. The per acre estimation assumes a 6-2/3 inch plow layer or rooting zone. Most soils have about the same capacity to hold and supply phosphorus, so test levels are reported on a pounds per acre basis only. The optimum level for most garden crops is from 20 to 40 pounds per acre (0.5 to 1 lb per 1000 sq. ft.) or the equivalent on a smaller area. Any phosphorus test level over 40 lb per acre is considered excessive. Pounds per acre exchangeable Potassium(K), Magnesium(Mg), and Calcium(Ca) is an index or scale for determining the availability of these three nutrients over the next growing season. As with the phosphorus level, the pounds per acre estimation assumes a 6-2/3 inch plow layer or rooting zone. The available portion of these three nutrients are held by the soil and are taken into plants as positively (+) charged particles called cations. The optimum level of these nutrients depends very much on the ability of the soil to hold these cations. This will be explained in more detail next. Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) is an estimation of the soil's ability to hold cations. It is a measure of the total amount of negative (-) charge in the soil. Since opposite charges attract, these (-) charged sites in the soil hold the (+) charged cations. CEC varies according to soil texture, organic matter content, and pH. The (-) exchange sites hold most of the available potassium, magnesium, and calcium in the soil as well as exchangeable or reserve acidity (mostly aluminum). The CEC which appears on the report form is not directly measured. Instead, it is estimated by converting the exchangeable Ca, K, Mg, and acidity levels found to equivalent amounts of (+) charge. All the (+) charges can then be added together. The sum of the (+) charges is assumed to equal the net (-) charge or CEC of the soil. Soil charges are expressed in terms of milliequivalents per 100 grams of soil (me/100 gm). In most soils, the net negative (-) charge or CEC will increase as the pH is increased. Because of this it is necessary to take into account the change in CEC after a recommended lime application. CEC is estimated at a projected pH, which varies depending on the crop to be grown. This projected pH or pH management level is explicitly stated for your crop in the first line of the Laboratory Results section. Because of this variation in nutrient holding capacity, a single soil can have two entirely different CEC estimates if recommendations are requested for two crops with different optimum pH levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2000 Report Share Posted January 16, 2000 **Soul of Soil** Any more details about this title, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2000 Report Share Posted January 16, 2000 On 17 Jan 2000, Radha Krsna wrote: > **Soul of Soil** > > Any more details about this title, please. Amazon.com has a few titles with "Soul of Soil". What author? The Soul of Soil : A Soil-Building Guide for Master Gardeners and Farmers ~ Usually ships in 2-3 days Joe Smillie, et al / Paperback / Published 1999 Our Price: $13.56 ~ You Save: $3.39 (20%) The Soul of Soil; A Guide to Ecological Soil Management Grace Gershuny, Joseph Smillie (Contributor) / Paperback / Published 1996 Our Price: $16.95 (Special Order) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2000 Report Share Posted January 18, 2000 In a message dated 1/16/2000 6:20:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, aryan (AT) uswest (DOT) net writes: > Amazon.com has a few titles with "Soul of Soil". > > What author? > > The Soul of Soil : A Soil-Building Guide for Master Gardeners and Farmers ~ > Usually ships in 2-3 days > Joe Smillie, et al / Paperback / Published 1999 > Our Price: $13.56 ~ You Save: $3.39 (20%) > > The Soul of Soil; A Guide to Ecological Soil Management > Grace Gershuny, Joseph Smillie (Contributor) / Paperback / Published 1996 > Our Price: $16.95 (Special Order) > > Another good source for books on the net is http://www.bestbookbuys.com. It provides comparision pricing from about 10 different book stores. Some of the stores sell second hand books as well so there can be real savings. yhs, Kanti dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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