Guest guest Posted January 27, 2000 Report Share Posted January 27, 2000 as i told you in the text, the matrix, i have a surreal job in an office building on the corner of one of the busiest intersections in the world. today i put on npr news, to play out of the computer, and they had a story about ben & jerry's ice cream. ben & jerry's, it seems, might be selling out to nestles or a european corporation, so wavy gravy was calling on all activists to go to "scoop shops" and rally for ben & jerry's "so they don't get eaten up by the corporate sharks." people were out in the cold yelling: "save the cow, save the cow, save the cow." npr had recorded the protesters chanting "save the cow, save the cow, save the cow." i was so blown away. i went on to their website and looked for information on cow protection, but none was available. they did have some nice information about the process of making ice cr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2000 Report Share Posted January 28, 2000 > > i was so blown away. i went on to their website and looked for > information on cow protection, but none was available. they did have some > nice information about the process of making ice cr Perhaps you should e mail them and ask about their views. A large cash buyout would put them in a position to fund a Cow Protection Trust, especially if they were approached intelligently and not arrogantly or preachily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2000 Report Share Posted February 4, 2000 On 28 Jan 2000, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > i was so blown away. i went on to their website and looked for > > information on cow protection, but none was available. > > Perhaps you should e mail them and ask about their views. A large cash > buyout would put them in a position to fund a Cow Protection Trust, > especially if they were approached intelligently and not arrogantly or > preachily. > > > Here's our response to your question! Although the message below states that you can either reply to this message or update it on our web site, please DO NOT REPLY to this message - this system is still under development and we will not receive your message. Please use the link to the web page for any updates to your question. We will see those and get back to you as soon as we can. ------------------------------ Summary: what happens to the cows after they stop giving you milk? SUGGESTED SOLUTION: At 02/04/2000 02:41 PM we wrote - Hello: A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life. When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down and used as food products. Thank you for writing and caring. Ben & Jerry's Description: what happens to the cows after they stop giving milk? If your issue remains unresolved, please update your incident at http://www.rightnowtech.com/cgi-bin/benjerry/r?11=000131-0008&130=949366205 You may also update this incident by replying to this message. Because your reply will be automatically processed, you MUST enter your reply in the space below. Text entered into any other part of this message will be discarded. [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===] [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===] ------------------------------ The WebHeads at Ben & Jerry's http://www.benjerry.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2000 Report Share Posted February 8, 2000 "WWW: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)" wrote: > [Text 2995774 from COM] > > On 28 Jan 2000, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > > > > i was so blown away. i went on to their website and looked for > > > information on cow protection, but none was available. > > > > Perhaps you should e mail them and ask about their views. A large cash > > buyout would put them in a position to fund a Cow Protection Trust, > > especially if they were approached intelligently and not arrogantly or > > preachily. > > > > > > Here's our response to your question! > > Although the message below states that you can either reply to > this message or update it on our web site, please DO NOT REPLY > to this message - this system is still under development and > we will not receive your message. Please use the link to the > web page for any updates to your question. We will see those > and get back to you as soon as we can. > > ------------------------------ > Summary: what happens to the cows after they stop giving you milk? > SUGGESTED SOLUTION: > At 02/04/2000 02:41 PM we wrote - Hello: > > A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This > cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life. > > When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down > and used as food products. > > Thank you for writing and caring. > > Ben & Jerry's > > Description: > what happens to the cows after they stop giving milk? > > If your issue remains unresolved, please update your incident at > http://www.rightnowtech.com/cgi-bin/benjerry/r?11=000131-0008&130=949366205 > > You may also update this incident by replying to this message. Because your > reply will be automatically processed, you MUST enter your reply in the space > below. Text entered into any other part of this message will be discarded. > [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===] > > [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===] > ------------------------------ > > The WebHeads at Ben & Jerry's > http://www.benjerry.com > > Hare Krsna! In matters of cow slaughter it is very difficult to tell if the speakers presenting solutions like this are plain ignorant or if they are consciously engaging in double talk. Pretty miserable. Ben and Jerry's states: A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life. When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down and used as food products. *********************************** Hare Krsna dasi comments: In the first place, they are probably lying. They state "When the cows can no longer produce milk...." they are killed. But the actual fact of the matter is that they kill the cows while they are still capable of producing milk. And more likely, they kill them while they are still producing. Usually in a commercial dairy, they stop milking the cow as soon as production falls below 30 lbs per day -- after that point, there is a danger of the cow getting mastitis if she is milked using a machine -- and for a commercial endeavor, it is not economical to hand-milk a cow. So in the first place, they are probably lying. The cow is probably still giving milk, but only enough to feed 30 people a day one cupful apiece. This to them is the same as no milk, so the cow can be killed. B&J states here that a cow give milk for 9 months and dries out for 3. This is not a given. This is entirely a management decision that they make in managing their breeding for their herd. A cow could give milk for 2 or even 4 years, depending on the situation. However, it is a smaller quantity of milk, and it is of a different quality, so probably would not be good for ice cream. They are presenting this as if they are simply reporting a fact of nature, but that is not the case at all. How long the cow gives milk depends greatly on how she is managed by the dairy farmer. Finally, once the cows supposedly "can no longer produce milk" then "they are humanely put down" and "used as food products." Stupendous. Ask them to send you a video clip of them "humanely putting down" a cow. Ask them if they plan to "humanely put down" their mother once she gets old. "Used as food products." That's an interesting way of saying ground up for hamburger. Probably the greatest extent of Ben & Jerry's "cow protection" is that their cows generally come from small farms where BST is not used. That is definitely an improvement in the quality of the life of the cow (in general), but I don't know if I would call it cow protection. Hypocrisy and commercialism go hand in hand -- especially with the dairy industry. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2000 Report Share Posted February 9, 2000 > > > Here's our response to your question! > > Although the message below states that you can either reply to > this message or update it on our web site, please DO NOT REPLY > to this message - this system is still under development and > we will not receive your message. Please use the link to the > web page for any updates to your question. We will see those > and get back to you as soon as we can. > > ------------------------------ > Summary: what happens to the cows after they stop giving you milk? > SUGGESTED SOLUTION: > At 02/04/2000 02:41 PM we wrote - Hello: > > A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This > cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life. > > When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down > and used as food products. > > Thank you for writing and caring. > > Ben & Jerry's > Well, at least they are honest. This is, of course, simply an auto generated response, never seen by Ben and Jerry They are better by degree than other ice cream manufacturers. We can see the glass as half empty, condemn them, and feel good about ourselves, or we can see that at least they have some potential in that they at least gave some edge to a small farmer by not using BGH milk. That is the pinhole. How to penetrate to Ben and Jerry themselves and get designated as a beneficiary of their charity work? Some one needs to pray to Krsna for the insight how to do that, and for the humility to pull it off. Out of my league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2000 Report Share Posted February 9, 2000 "We can see the glass as half empty, condemn them, and feel good about ourselves..." Who's suggesting pessimism, condemnation, and self-righteousness? "or we can see that at least they have some potential in that they at least gave some edge to a small farmer by not using BGH milk." They're giving the edge to the small [demoniac] farmer [who kills cows]. Am I being fanatical? "How to penetrate to Ben and Jerry themselves and get designated as a beneficiary of their charity work?" I looked at the "charity" section of their site, and it seems that grants are very small. Receiving donations from a business that exploits cows is not praiseworthy--spending the money received to protect cows would be the goal. Better yet, in my opinion, to DEMAND that they protect their cows (and make a living instead of a killing). What power do I have to demand anything? None. If Ben & Jerry's customers decided not to eat their ice cream until they had a cow protection program in place, I bet B&J themselves would act. "Some one needs to pray to Krsna for the insight how to do that, and for the humility to pull it off." We all need humility. Is that the issue? Or is it that cows need to be protected? I would favor rallying the troops, clearly defining our position, and fighting for it. RPd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2000 Report Share Posted February 10, 2000 "WWW: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)" wrote: > [Text 3001170 from COM] > > "We can see the glass as half empty, condemn them, and feel good about > ourselves..." Who's suggesting pessimism, condemnation, and > self-righteousness? > > "or we can see that at least they have some potential in that they at least > gave some edge to a small farmer by not using BGH milk." They're giving the > edge to the small [demoniac] farmer [who kills cows]. Am I being fanatical? > > "How to penetrate to Ben and Jerry themselves and get designated as a > beneficiary of their charity work?" I looked at the "charity" section of their > site, and it seems that grants are very small. Receiving donations from a > business that exploits cows is not praiseworthy--spending the money received > to protect cows would be the goal. Better yet, in my opinion, to DEMAND that > they protect their cows (and make a living instead of a killing). > > What power do I have to demand anything? None. If Ben & Jerry's customers > decided not to eat their ice cream until they had a cow protection program in > place, I bet B&J themselves would act. Two points or perspectives come to mind: First: ""If Ben & Jerry's customers decided not to eat their ice cream until they had a cow protection program in place, I bet B&J themselves would act." They might act. If they did, it would be to get a slicker spin on how they treat their cows, not to set up a cow protection program. Why? Because if they actually had cow protection program in place, the price of their ice cream would be so expensive that it would not be marketable. Commercial dairy products and cow protection are essentially incompatible programs. Example: When I was at Gita-nagari milk was selling in the supermarket for about $2 per gallon. But I calculated, based on our actual expenses that our costs per gallon (including the key essential factor of maintaining retired cows) was $10 per gallon. Before I did this computation, I was one of the ones that advocated that commercial consumers should simply pay the little bit more required to protect their cows. But, as a mother, I knew that I would never be able to afford to feed my children milk if it cost $10 per gallon. Neither could Ben & Jerry's sell much ice cream if they had to pay five times as much for their principle ingredient. They would quickly go out of business. That's while I feel it is basically futile to shake our fingers at the dairy industry and demand they protect their cows. Cow protection cannot exist within a capitalist framework. That is the fact. If you would study the dairy industry, neoclassical economics and Marxian economics, you would understand what I am saying. On one hand, I appreciate that since they are not using BST and since they are using milk products from small farms -- the cows are better treated than in most commercial dairies. On the other hand, since the animals are inevitably slaughtered (possibly with a handful of exceptions) after 4-8 years, it can't really be called "cow protection." Also, when the bull calves are also slaughtered at 2 yrs old at the oldest. So, that part annoys me: cow can they pretend it's cow protection. That's hypocritical. Second: My next point is: How can we shake our fingers at others if in so many places we don't have a credible cow protection program. We get all upset that 11 of Krsna's cows from ISKCON property were slaughtered last June -- by arrangement of the temple president. But that is basically because we were able to find out the names and ages of the cows and create an international outrage about the slaughter. But what about hundreds of cows which Syamasundara prabhu points out are mathematically missing from Vrndavana and from Mayapur? And now we receive word that even in the last year, animals are still being shipped out from Mayapur. The absolute fact of the matter is that cow protection is about the lowest priority for the GBC. They will not even fulfill their obligation to meet with cowherds and submit quarterly reports. So, there is a very substantial possibility that, especially on our larger ISKCON farms cows are also being sent to slaughter. With no records, we certainly cannot prove otherwise. So who are we to be shaking our fingers at others and insisting that they uphold the standard of cow protection, when we as an institution (*please remember, there are dozens of individual devotees who themselves are working hard to uphold cow protection as best they can -- despite the apathy of ISKCON's officials other than the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture) are not willing to commit to it? That seems even more hypocritical than Ben & Jerry's. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi > > > "Some one needs to pray to Krsna for the insight how to do that, and for the > humility to pull it off." We all need humility. Is that the issue? Or is it > that cows need to be protected? I would favor rallying the troops, clearly > defining our position, and fighting for it. > > RPd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 >"COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)" ><Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se, Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se >"Noma Petroff" <npetroff (AT) Bowdoin (DOT) EDU>, ramprasad (AT) com (DOT) org, "COM: >Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >Re: ben & jerry's >Tue, 8 Feb 00 11:48 -0500 > >[Text 2997525 from COM] > >"WWW: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)" wrote: > > > [Text 2995774 from COM] > > > > On 28 Jan 2000, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > i was so blown away. i went on to their website and looked for > > > > information on cow protection, but none was available. > > > > > > Perhaps you should e mail them and ask about their views. A large >cash > > > buyout would put them in a position to fund a Cow Protection Trust, > > > especially if they were approached intelligently and not arrogantly or > > > preachily. > > > > > > > > > Here's our response to your question! > > > > Although the message below states that you can either reply to > > this message or update it on our web site, please DO NOT REPLY > > to this message - this system is still under development and > > we will not receive your message. Please use the link to the > > web page for any updates to your question. We will see those > > and get back to you as soon as we can. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Summary: what happens to the cows after they stop giving you milk? > > SUGGESTED SOLUTION: > > At 02/04/2000 02:41 PM we wrote - Hello: > > > > A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This > > cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life. > > > > When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down > > and used as food products. > > > > Thank you for writing and caring. > > > > Ben & Jerry's > > > > Description: > > what happens to the cows after they stop giving milk? > > > > If your issue remains unresolved, please update your incident at > > >http://www.rightnowtech.com/cgi-bin/benjerry/r?11=000131-0008&130=949366205 > > > > You may also update this incident by replying to this message. Because >your > > reply will be automatically processed, you MUST enter your reply in the >space > > below. Text entered into any other part of this message will be >discarded. > > [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===] > > > > [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===] > > ------------------------------ > > > > The WebHeads at Ben & Jerry's > > http://www.benjerry.com > > > > >Hare Krsna! > >In matters of cow slaughter it is very difficult to tell if the speakers >presenting solutions like this are plain ignorant or if they are >consciously >engaging in double talk. Pretty miserable. > >Ben and Jerry's states: > >A cow gives milk for nine months then dries out for three. This >cycle is repeated throughout the cow's productive life. > >When the cows can no longer produce milk, they are humanely put down >and used as food products. > >*********************************** > >Hare Krsna dasi comments: > >In the first place, they are probably lying. They state "When the cows can >no >longer produce milk...." they are killed. But the actual fact of the >matter is >that they kill the cows while they are still capable of producing milk. >And >more >likely, they kill them while they are still producing. Usually in a >commercial >dairy, they stop milking the cow as soon as production falls below 30 lbs >per >day >-- after that point, there is a danger of the cow getting mastitis if she >is >milked using a machine -- and for a commercial endeavor, it is not >economical >to >hand-milk a cow. > >So in the first place, they are probably lying. The cow is probably still >giving >milk, but only enough to feed 30 people a day one cupful apiece. This to >them >is >the same as no milk, so the cow can be killed. > >B&J states here that a cow give milk for 9 months and dries out for 3. >This is >not a given. This is entirely a management decision that they make in >managing >their breeding for their herd. A cow could give milk for 2 or even 4 >years, >depending on the situation. However, it is a smaller quantity of milk, and >it >is >of a different quality, so probably would not be good for ice cream. They >are >presenting this as if they are simply reporting a fact of nature, but that >is >not >the case at all. How long the cow gives milk depends greatly on how she is >managed by the dairy farmer. > >Finally, once the cows supposedly "can no longer produce milk" then "they >are >humanely put down" and "used as food products." Stupendous. Ask them to >send >you a video clip of them "humanely putting down" a cow. Ask them if they >plan >to >"humanely put down" their mother once she gets old. > >"Used as food products." That's an interesting way of saying ground up for >hamburger. > >Probably the greatest extent of Ben & Jerry's "cow protection" is that >their >cows >generally come from small farms where BST is not used. That is definitely >an >improvement in the quality of the life of the cow (in general), but I don't >know >if I would call it cow protection. > >Hypocrisy and commercialism go hand in hand -- especially with the dairy >industry. > >your servant, > >Hare Krsna dasi > > I don't know exact time but Visakha has been milking for about 8 years with out beeing freshened. She presently gives about 10-15pds in the morning and 8-10pds in the evening. magic mamma . yr servant, derek, GN OX PRO, Gita Nagari ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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