Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 I can't seem to send this privately, although I've tried 3 times. So here it is, public. Dear Dvibhuja: You talk about not criticizing devotees, but your letter criticizes all the devotees on this conference, some specifically. You’re lucky you didn’t criticize the leaders of our movement because they’re perfect, and, if you criticize perfected beings, you get the defects that you projected onto them. The obvious way to avoid criticizing ISKCON is not to talk about ISKCON’s shortcomings, and focus on Cow Protection. If, however, we fail to address OUR shortcomings, how will we fix them? An example of a problem in ISKCON: I was a professional cook before I joined. My third or fourth bhakta leader didn’t like the way that I was cutting vegetables. He said that I shouldn’t spend so much time cleaning them. I was making sure that the carrots and potatoes had no black on them—which was a laborious task because the temple was buying third-class bhoga. When I told him that my mother had taught me how to clean and cut vegetables, he called my mother a pig and asked me if I’d like to return to living with her. That devotee was later punched in the face by another devotee for something else. I was, to my discredit, cheering and disappointed when the fight was broken up. That devotee later became the vegetable cutter in the Deity kitchen, and the head pujari told me that my ex-bhakta leader just wouldn’t take the time to cut the vegetables nicely. He stayed in that position for three years. I saw it as an example of how Krishna works. Did I report this problem to the Temple President? Yes. Did he support me? No. In fact, he was ready to ship me off to another temple because I had no service. The devotee again called my mother a pig. Later on, after I was kicked out for suggesting that the temple leaders shave their heads and go on Harinama with us new guys, I was initiated and became a cook. Actually I was always a cook. I became a devotee cook, and, although fallen, am still appreciated by some for my efforts in the kitchen. Anyway, this is a happy story, because it has a happy ending, and I weathered the storm. What does it indicate though? I remember one evening, after a holy day feast that was exceptional, one of the other cooks turned to another devotee and said: “And they kicked him out of the kitchen. This is the problem with this movement.” I don’t know if it’s a serious problem, but, as far as not engaging someone according to his or her capacity, it’s a serious problem. Later on I discovered more serious problems. One highly-positioned devotee threatened me in front of the Deities. Two highly-positioned devotees threatened me that if I didn’t follow their instructions, they would “take it out on my spiritual master.” And, finally, when my spiritual master slipped and fell, the ultimate managers decided that lying to me was the best thing to do. So many other issues can be addressed in ISKCON, and I am also weary of these topics. The ksatriyas aren’t listening. I remember reading somewhere that the king would always give audience to the subjects. I feel that I know no one who will face the people who threatened me and my spiritual master because who wants to get into a fray with two ex-chairmen of the GBC? So then what? We just live in fear of our GBC? If we offend them, they will hurt us? I’m sorry I can’t see the beauty in this arrangement. I love ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada by not going along. I want to stick to the principles of Krishna consciousness which I’ve read about in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Those are more important to me than the “ultimate managing authority.” Now, I could take the approach that I am a sinful person, and I’ve been yanked out of ISKCON like a useless weed. Either way, I want to do some service to protect the cows, and I want to focus on how to start something in that direction. I know about 25 Prabhupada disciples in a twenty-five-mile radius. ALL of them are alienated from the temple. Accept things favorable, reject things unfavorable—if ISKCON wants to help, great. If not, option 2. Ram Prasad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 Hare Krishna; No one denies there are always problems in this material world. Everyone, Everyone, all of us have to overcome our mind and senses. No one is exempt. As we become successful we can help others just as Srila Prabhupada helps us. So I don't say you don't have a mind, I am just saying to criticize on the cow conference about your own personal difficulties using devotees you practically know nothing about is not right. So that is my complaint. I am sorry if you are not happy in this ISKCON. I am, even though I am a fallen soul, I love my ISKCON leaders. I don't envy them because I am fortunate enough by the mercy of Guru and Gouranga. It is just not good to have animosity towards devotees who are dedicating their lives to Krishna consciousness. No offense Prabhu, but what makes your mind think it is our duty to rectify our movement by your criticism of our devoted leaders. Because you had a personality clash with someone in the kitchen. Show me a person in this movement who hasn't had some runin with someone. It is not relavant. So please don't become angry because I feel it inappropiate to use the cow conference to address our greivances. Founded or unfounded. I am writing this to help you understand I am not your enemy. It is just from a devotional standpoint, it is dangerous to criticize devotees. So I know you say well what are you doing. There is a difference in saying our leaders are all blank and blank and saying it isn't appropriate for devotees trying to build loving exchanges in order to better serve mother cow. I think you will have to agree. So maybe this can be a peace offering and you can just let me use senority on you here. I joined in 72 so maybe since I am getting to be an old man now you can just humor me as if I was your uncle. I beg to remain YS Dvibhuja das Your servant Dvibhuja das WWW: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?) <ramprasad (AT) com (DOT) org> COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:40 PM criticizing criticism >[Text 2979681 from COM] > >I can't seem to send this privately, although I've tried 3 times. So here it >is, public. > >Dear Dvibhuja: > >You talk about not criticizing devotees, but your letter criticizes all the >devotees on this conference, some specifically. > >You're lucky you didn't criticize the leaders of our movement because they're >perfect, and, if you criticize perfected beings, you get >the defects that you projected onto them. > >The obvious way to avoid criticizing ISKCON is not to talk about ISKCON's >shortcomings, and focus on Cow Protection. If, >however, we fail to address OUR shortcomings, how will we fix them? > >An example of a problem in ISKCON: I was a professional cook before I joined. >My third or fourth bhakta leader didn't like the way >that I was cutting vegetables. He said that I shouldn't spend so much time >cleaning them. I was making sure that the carrots and >potatoes had no black on them-which was a laborious task because the temple >was buying third-class bhoga. When I told him that >my mother had taught me how to clean and cut vegetables, he called my mother a >pig and asked me if I'd like to return to living with >her. > >That devotee was later punched in the face by another devotee for something >else. I was, to my discredit, cheering and disappointed >when the fight was broken up. That devotee later became the vegetable cutter >in the Deity kitchen, and the head pujari told me that >my ex-bhakta leader just wouldn't take the time to cut the vegetables nicely. >He stayed in that position for three years. I saw it as an >example of how Krishna works. > >Did I report this problem to the Temple President? Yes. Did he support me? No. >In fact, he was ready to ship me off to another >temple because I had no service. The devotee again called my mother a pig. >Later on, after I was kicked out for suggesting that the >temple leaders shave their heads and go on Harinama with us new guys, I was >initiated and became a cook. Actually I was always a >cook. I became a devotee cook, and, although fallen, am still appreciated by >some for my efforts in the kitchen. > >Anyway, this is a happy story, because it has a happy ending, and I weathered >the storm. What does it indicate though? I remember >one evening, after a holy day feast that was exceptional, one of the other >cooks turned to another devotee and said: "And they kicked >him out of the kitchen. This is the problem with this movement." > >I don't know if it's a serious problem, but, as far as not engaging someone >according to his or her capacity, it's a serious problem. > >Later on I discovered more serious problems. One highly-positioned devotee >threatened me in front of the Deities. Two >highly-positioned devotees threatened me that if I didn't follow their >instructions, they would "take it out on my spiritual master." >And, finally, when my spiritual master slipped and fell, the ultimate managers >decided that lying to me was the best thing to do. > >So many other issues can be addressed in ISKCON, and I am also weary of these >topics. The ksatriyas aren't listening. I remember >reading somewhere that the king would always give audience to the subjects. I >feel that I know no one who will face the people who >threatened me and my spiritual master because who wants to get into a fray >with two ex-chairmen of the GBC? > >So then what? We just live in fear of our GBC? If we offend them, they will >hurt us? I'm sorry I can't see the beauty in this >arrangement. I love ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada by not going along. I want to >stick to the principles of Krishna consciousness >which I've read about in Srila Prabhupada's books. Those are more important to >me than the "ultimate managing authority." > >Now, I could take the approach that I am a sinful person, and I've been yanked >out of ISKCON like a useless weed. > >Either way, I want to do some service to protect the cows, and I want to focus >on how to start something in that direction. I know >about 25 Prabhupada disciples in a twenty-five-mile radius. ALL of them are >alienated from the temple. > >Accept things favorable, reject things unfavorable-if ISKCON wants to help, >great. If not, option 2. > >Ram Prasad > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 Uncle Dvibhuja: I agree this isn't the place for grievances. When I hear frustration coming from other devotees, I can sympathize, and that's what I'm talking about. I don't know how it was when Srila Prabhupada was around. You do. When devotees would complain about the situation at their temple, how did Srila Prabhupada react? Your servant, RPd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2000 Report Share Posted February 2, 2000 dear Prabhus can you have these impoprtant discussions on another conference this is the cow onference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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