Guest guest Posted February 22, 2000 Report Share Posted February 22, 2000 i'm not sure if it's being implied that i'm a sentimentalist or sahajiya; add sinner and fool to the list, and i'll wear the label. how many gopis dance on the head of a pin? are my questions about krishna's cowherding so unrelated to what we're talking about? or have i worn out my welcome on this conference? driving a car to the temple is transcendental, and so is walking. i am doing what drutakarama and sadaputa prabhus say the scientists do: make a conclusion and gather evidences to support it. the conclusion i am trying to support is that the cow protection economy is comparatively better (which i believe is the vedantic conclusion). i've been rated in the top 1% in this country as far as mathematics skills are concerned, and i'm trying to understand why ISKCON's cow protection programs drain wealth rather than create it. I understand that the car may help someone get to the temple faster than the ox cart, and that is probably the main factor in why cow protection is not working for us--who wants to go back to go-carts? i also understand our deal with the devil: we are dependent on oil, and oilmen who were significant players in the human slaughter of WWII will not easily release their stranglehold on the world economy. If we can boil down the economics of cow protection to the smallest unit, which i believe would be a per cow basis, i might be able to better assess the situation (which i believe is as dark as it has been). for example, cow dung is a gold mine says an adult cow produces 4 tons of dung/year. if that dung is composted or used to produce gobar gas, then there is a certain economic benefit which i believe outweighs the cost of the cow's maintenance. visakha's 3 gallons/day X 8 years, is roughly 8000 gallons of milk--in los angeles, that's worth $20,000, which i believe outweighs the cost of the cow's maintenance. a bus pass costs $30/month. insurance on a car costs $50-400/month. gasoline costs $10-40/week. an ox cart costs how much to maintain? i don't see the numbers betraying the statements of the vedic sages. that's why i'm trying to understand from you devotees, who have experience with cows, what are the factors that make cow protection less viable than fossil fuels? i believe the only factor is ignorance, not of the cowherders, but of the general population who demand the cars to drive to the temple. of course merchants of the fossil fuels perpetuate this nescience. like arjuna, we must be ready to fight the society that raised us. even though we ride in cars, and our food comes from the notorious 'teamsters', if we stand with krishna, certainly there will be victory. if not, i will conclude that i didn't stand with krishna early enough in the fight. ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2000 Report Share Posted February 22, 2000 > > 8000 gallons of milk--in los angeles, that's worth $20,000, which i > believe outweighs the cost of the cow's maintenance. I'll go over this again. That 20K is the retail price. It includes trucking to the processing plant, pastruizing, homogenizing, bottling, delivery to the retail store. Every step of the way, someone adds value and makes money, then the retail markup at the store. so the milk at the cow cannot be valued at the ultimate retail price. > . that's > why i'm trying to understand from you devotees, who have experience with > cows, what are the factors that make cow protection less viable than > fossil fuels? If I have 500 dollars, I can put it in the bank and earn 5% interest, $25 a year. Or I can buy a gun and a mask, walk into the bank, and stick it up, achieving a much greater return on investment. Fossil fuels are like robbing the earth. Cash capitalism creates artificial conditions. Cow protection works in a natural environment. Built into the low cost of the milk in the stores is the money the dairymen recieve for the slaughter of the cow, and also the money they don't spend on maintaining a cow when it isn't giving milk. Selling some dung may be okay, but where are the nutrients in the dung coming from? They are depleting the soil over the long run. You will be removing nutrients from a closed system. If you remove too much, your soil fertility will suffer, and civilizations rise and fall on soil fertility. The way cow protection will become viable is when those who have a spiritual vision of the cow make an endowment program to subsidize protected milk production. This is very real possibility. We are in unusual times, so we may have to use unusual methods, but cow protection, yes, even now, can be viable, if we can use our intelligence to not try to repeat proven unsuccessful patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2000 Report Share Posted February 23, 2000 > >driving a car to the temple is transcendental, and so is walking. > >i am doing what drutakarama and sadaputa prabhus say the scientists do: >make a conclusion and gather evidences to support it. the conclusion i am >trying to support is that the cow protection economy is comparatively >better (which i believe is the vedantic conclusion). It is comparatively better in terms of real wealth, which is an abundance of the simple necessities, grains, milk products, cloth. Without having to work in industrial OR agricultural enterprises which poison the earth. Comparitively better when you consider the LONG range impact on our lives of dependence on artificial lifestyle, and that of generations to come. Comparitively better in terms of restoring love and appreciation for the value of bovines beyond the dinner table. Comparively better in terms of the spiritual and long range material benefits of producing everything locally. But it will never work as far as I have observed if you try to mix in the artificial lifestyle with cow protection and try to make it pay off your car and your house. SP advised us to give up dependency on money, then it will work, only then. Then basically one is free from NEEDING money, one may sell a bit of excess, or rent out a guest house or something if one requires a bit for incidentals, but basically one is relieved of the burden of money-dependency. Freedom, huh? Otherwise you have to pay an arm and a tooth for each litre. Puts it out of the reach of poor people (like me). i've been rated in >the top 1% in this country as far as mathematics skills are concerned, >and i'm trying to understand why ISKCON's cow protection programs drain >wealth rather than create it. > >I understand that the car may help someone get to the temple faster than >the ox cart, and that is probably the main factor in why cow protection >is not working for us--who wants to go back to go-carts? Why are you going to the temple, to have kirtan? Why not have it on the way? Why race to the temple to do what you can do on the way- we are in too much of a hurry. Krsna was quite happy with the bullock cart... i also >understand our deal with the devil: we are dependent on oil, and oilmen >who were significant players in the human slaughter of WWII will not >easily release their stranglehold on the world economy. Therefore we are more aware than ever, on the dire necessity to take up Prabhupada's directions regarding simple living... > >If we can boil down the economics of cow protection to the smallest unit, >which i believe would be a per cow basis, i might be able to better >assess the situation (which i believe is as dark as it has been). for >example, cow dung is a gold mine says an adult cow produces 4 tons of >dung/year. if that dung is composted or used to produce gobar gas, then >there is a certain economic benefit which i believe outweighs the cost >of the cow's maintenance. visakha's 3 gallons/day X 8 years, is roughly >8000 gallons of milk--in los angeles, that's worth $20,000, which i >believe outweighs the cost of the cow's maintenance. Visakha is an exceptional cow though. A good average is 3 yeaRS. > >a bus pass costs $30/month. insurance on a car costs $50-400/month. >gasoline costs $10-40/week. an ox cart costs how much to maintain? Exactly. >don't see the numbers betraying the statements of the vedic sages. that's >why i'm trying to understand from you devotees, who have experience with >cows, what are the factors that make cow protection less viable than >fossil fuels? i believe the only factor is ignorance, not of the >cowherders, but of the general population who demand the cars to drive to >the temple. of course merchants of the fossil fuels perpetuate this >nescience. And we are their blind followers. > >like arjuna, we must be ready to fight the society that raised us. even >though we ride in cars, and our food comes from the notorious >'teamsters', if we stand with krishna, certainly there will be victory. That is not possible unless we are prepared to follow the spiritual master. Yasya prasadad... ys, niscala ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2000 Report Share Posted February 23, 2000 > > > > >i am doing what drutakarama and sadaputa prabhus say the scientists do: > >make a conclusion and gather evidences to support it. the conclusion i am > >trying to support is that the cow protection economy is comparatively > >better (which i believe is the vedantic conclusion). Actually, you have that a little off. What scientists do is put forth a hypothesis, then test the hypothesis, and then come to a conclusion. In any scientific study, you will always see the conclusion at the end. Good scientific method means all facts must be considered, and the conclusion must be based on those facts, whether or not they support the original hypothesiss. Many times scientists come to conclusions that invalidate their original hypothesis. I think we are probably just talking semantics here, but defining what words mean is a great part of what is necessary for good communication. As Niscala has pointed out, there are many benefits to cow protection, not simply economic. If you confine your inquiry to the aspect of economics alone, then classical models of how cow protection is beneficial may not hold up. You have to look at the braoder picture. I was raised on a farm where we had 50 beef calves a year. We made money doing it. Within a cow slaughter culture, raising cows made economic sense, if you ultimately slaughtered them. In Vedic times, noone slaughtered cows, so the playing field was level, everyone had roughly the same macro economic factors to consider. Trying to use that model and apply it in a micro manner in a cow slaughter culture, and only evaluate it from a purely economic perspective, your hypothesis won't hold up. Adjustments need to be made. We have seen in NV, that Hindus will make contributions to help subsidize cow protection. That was not necessary in Vedic times, but it is necessary now. With a properly designed program, cow protection can draw large sums of laxmi. But having a self righteous, attacking, guilt trip laying approach, will not only not work, it could blow right up in your face, if [potential donors start looking too closely at what has happened historically in ISKCON and what is happening currently in India. We need a fresh start, and fresh starts need to be accompanied by humility. Seeing what is wrong with Ben and Jerry's (I am using them figuratively here) approach will get you nowhere, try instead to extract what is right , and encourage that. We are in no position to make demands, we can only humbly request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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