stand with krishna

[Guest guest]

> i'm not sure if it's being implied that i'm a sentimentalist or sahajiya;

> add sinner and fool to the list, and i'll wear the label.

 

Prabhuji, I dont think anyone is implying you are anything less than a very

sincere devotee. Hare Krsna Dasis comments didn't come across to me as being

critical of you personaly.

>

> how many gopis dance on the head of a pin? are my questions about

> krishna's cowherding so unrelated to what we're talking about? or have i

> worn out my welcome on this conference?

 

Not at all I think you got the wrong end of the stick. From my perspective

at least I welcome your refreshing confidence in the virtues of cow

protection. I wish their were more devotees with such leanings.

 

> If we can boil down the economics of cow protection to the smallest unit,

> which i believe would be a per cow basis, i might be able to better assess

> the situation (which i believe is as dark as it has been).

 

While I can understand that you wish to make cow protection work in the here

and now, in the world social position we now have, if you look in the right

places it is clear that Srila Prabhupada wanted to change the entire

paradigm, and introduce varnasrama, maybe we could call it neo-varnasrama.

Varnasrama in the here and now as an *alternative* to the demonic society we

live in that has zero respect for cows.

 

To me this means getting down and dirty on the land with the cows

themselves. When we get onto the cows wavelength (Krsna Himself spent a lot

of time on their vibrational level in Vraja), then we will start to get an

idea of how best to protect them. Really protection means family protection.

When they are part of the family, it becomes second nature. That is when we

recognise them for the wealth they bring, it becomes a direct tangible

reality, not necesarily in monetary terms.

 

Of course not everyone can do this, at least no immediately, so the trusts

scheme is essential to help those that would like to take it to that level.

 

Read the new compilation of Prabhupadas instructions on varnasrama, and you

will see that that is what he wants. He says; "So this vedic scheme,

Varnasrama, is a very important scheme....That is one of the items of Krsna

Consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varna and asrama."

(Speaking about varnasrama Page 177).

 

We seem to be missing an item.

 

> like arjuna, we must be ready to fight the society that raised us. even

> though we ride in cars, and our food comes from the notorious 'teamsters',

> if we stand with krishna, certainly there will be victory. if not, i will

> conclude that i didn't stand with krishna early enough in the fight.

 

I think we have to do more than stand with Him, WE have to fight, WE have to

reintroduce the system of varnasrama that HE created, we have to fight for

that, and the way to do that is to get back to the land, and do it. Its dead

simple really, maybe a bit too simple for folks that prefer pre-packaged

supermarket life, and I think that is the main problem.

 

YS Samba das

[Guest guest]

On 23 Feb 2000, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> Adjustments need to be made. We have seen in NV, that Hindus will make

contributions to help subsidize cow protection. That was not necessary in

Vedic times, but it is necessary now. With a properly designed program, cow

protection can draw large sums of laxmi.

 

> But having a self righteous, attacking, guilt trip laying approach, will

not only not work, it could blow right up in your face, if [potential donors

start looking too closely at what has happened historically in ISKCON and what

is happening currently in India.

 

Comment:

This is a point that can not be understressed, one must be very careful in

dealing with those who are into animal rights (PETA, Vegans, etc.), those who

are the focus of animal rights workers (Ben and Jerrys). To attack when your

house (ISKCON) and your neigbhours (Hindus) are not the cleanest is asking for

trouble. You may find conditions at B&J and in India as horrifying better to

first fix what is wrong in ISKCON before turing your energies toward these

other worthy causes.

>

> We need a fresh start, and fresh starts need to be accompanied by humility.

Seeing what is wrong with Ben and Jerry's (I am using them figuratively here)

approach will get you nowhere, try instead to extract what is right , and

encourage that. We are in no position to make demands, we can only humbly

request.

 

Comment:

To continue in the frame preceding, within ISKCON we have to extract what is

right - encourage it and try to change what is wrong by offering our service

(labour and funds) to help those in a postion to make changes.

Once this is done we can then turn our attention to these other causes.

Ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Ram Prasad (Dasa) (?)" wrote:

 

> i'm not sure if it's being implied that i'm a sentimentalist or sahajiya;

> add sinner and fool to the list, and i'll wear the label.

>

> how many gopis dance on the head of a pin? are my questions about

> krishna's cowherding so unrelated to what we're talking about? or have i

> worn out my welcome on this conference?

 

I'm sorry that you interpreted my comments as a disparagement of your

comments. On the contrary, I appreciate your innocent and thoughtful

inquiries and your attempts to get some momentum going in a productive

direction.

 

As for my comment about "how many gopis can dance on the head of a pin" that

simply reflects my frustration with what seems to be the brahminical focus in

ISKCON to investigate intricate esoteric spiritual questions while failing to

address our fundamental problems on a practical level.

 

There is a passage in James Michener's *Hawaii* in which some shipping

traders taunt the Christian missionaries on the island: "You know you folks

are doing a great service here. It used to be when our boats landed all the

girls from the village would come swimming out to have sex with us. But

since you have been training them up so nicely, now, before having sex, they

always say 'Please' and then 'Thank you.'"

 

So in a way, I feel like we are all like the Hawaiin girls in the story. We

are offering all these courses in the literatures of the Goswamis and fine

techniques of Deity worship -- but we somehow have missed the basics. We are

abusing cows, women and children.

 

So, how can our preaching be credible? As far as I know, still not one

single ISKCON farm project is compliant with ISKCON's minimum cow protection

standards (ISKCON Law 507).

 

And still we imagine that we are so spiritually advanced. So, that's the

irony I was trying to call attention to.

 

> driving a car to the temple is transcendental, and so is walking

 

> i am doing what drutakarama and sadaputa prabhus say the scientists do:

> make a conclusion and gather evidences to support it. the conclusion i am

> trying to support is that the cow protection economy is comparatively

> better (which i believe is the vedantic conclusion). i've been rated in

> the top 1% in this country as far as mathematics skills are concerned,

> and i'm trying to understand why ISKCON's cow protection programs drain

> wealth rather than create it.

>

> I understand that the car may help someone get to the temple faster than

> the ox cart, and that is probably the main factor in why cow protection

> is not working for us--who wants to go back to go-carts? i also

> understand our deal with the devil: we are dependent on oil, and oilmen

> who were significant players in the human slaughter of WWII will not

> easily release their stranglehold on the world economy.

 

At least not for another 30 years or so.

 

> If we can boil down the economics of cow protection to the smallest unit,

> which i believe would be a per cow basis, i might be able to better

> assess the situation (which i believe is as dark as it has been). for

> example, cow dung is a gold mine says an adult cow produces 4 tons of

> dung/year. if that dung is composted or used to produce gobar gas, then

> there is a certain economic benefit which i believe outweighs the cost

> of the cow's maintenance. visakha's 3 gallons/day X 8 years, is roughly

> 8000 gallons of milk--in los angeles, that's worth $20,000, which i

> believe outweighs the cost of the cow's maintenance.

 

I don't think I understand specifically what you are trying to get at here.

The milk value and the dung value is kind of mixed up in this formulation

according to my feeble powers of understanding.

 

But there is one thing to mention, and that is that just because it is

claimed that some product is worth $x per unit, does not mean that you will

receive $x per unit for that product. That was one of the great lessons that

I learned at Gita-nagari.

 

One year, there was a drought, and throughout Juniata county the squash crop

was failing. Well, we had farmed organically, and our squash made it through

the drought in great shape. We had 600 pounds of squash. Even at $.50 per

pound that would have been $300 worth. However, I called all over the state

to see what we could sell. Practically no one would buy it, either because

we did not have 2000 pounds or we did not have liability insurance, etc.

etc. We sold a little bit to some organic restaurants. And some of it we

were able to use for ourselves.

 

Most of it simply rotted. $300 worth of squash does not necessarily mean you

can actually get $300 for it.

 

I had the same experience with Jerusalem artichokes (sunflower roots). We

had lots of beautiful Jerusalem artichokes. They were organic, big, and

worm-free. I was told they were worth $1 per pound. Again, we called all

over the state, and eventually found one organic restaurant that would buy 10

pounds. (Luckily the rest did not rot, because we simply left them in the

ground to grow again next year.)

 

Anyway, capitalism is not as straightforward as it seems. There are many

little twists and turns to it.

 

The real way of trying to see how all this could work out practically would

be to establish a Varnasrama College and set it up with all kinds of

experimental crops and procedures, just like an agricultural college. If,

instead of studying how many gopis can dance on the head of a pin, we were to

seriously develop an agriculture-based varnasrama college -- then we could

find the answers to many of the questions that you raise.

 

We really need an opportunity to do some serious large-scale experimentation

to find the practical answers to the questions of how society can be

organized for self-sufficiency -- Please believe me, we're not going to find

the answers in the Manu Samhita.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi