A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

[Guest guest]

I've seen some of these pictures aswell. It's terrible to see the condition

of these cows and more over the lack of concern for their welfare from the

'managers' (damagers). All due respects to those who do care and help where

they can.

It should be made possible to legally prosecute those responsible for such

gross neglect !!

 

Reading all this made me think how it is possible that an ISKCON farm can

turn into cowcentration camp, where gross injustice is going on towards

innocent and defenseless minorities, where hardly anything can be done

legally against it and everything is being tried to cover it all up. I hope

we will learn from the horrible facts of the past...

and progress towards a more glorious future.

 

SEE EVERYTHING ... HEAR EVERYTHING... SAY EVERYTHING ... so does GOD !!!

[Guest guest]

"COM: Malati (dd) ACBSP (Columbus - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2769531 from COM]

>

> Hare Krishna..Is there documentation proof as of this horror storey?

> (ie:some kind of facts to verify the statements?) I think this is very

> important in order to get your points across effectively and insure an

> adequate response.

>

> I could not eat lunch today as a result of reading your letter. Children,

> women, cows,....what/who is next?

 

Malati Prabhu--

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I'm not sure whether you are addressing me directly. (I never know if

devotees are addressing me unless they call me Hare Krsna dasi or Mother Hare

Krsna -- that's a life-long joke my spiritual master played on me.)

 

Anyway, as for documentation. I have given what I could. The FBI has a

saying: "There is no justice without investigation." In general, our policy

in ISKCON has been: We don't investigate. The Child Protection Office (is

that the correct name) is fortunately changing that. Investigation --

especially by impartial and thorough outside investigators -- costs money,

and unfortunately we have never wanted to spend that money to investigate

whether certain charges are factual. It's almost like a Catch 22 in ISKCON:

Don't bring up these allegations until we have investigated to see if they are

true. And when do you plan to do that investigation? -- Never!

 

On the other hand, I have only quoted from sources whom I personally feel are

credible. For example, when a devotee with the strength of character and

reputation for competent cow care of the stature of Syamasundara prabhu states

that the mathematics for the Vrndavana and Mayapura gosalla indicates that

hundreds of cows are missing from what should be there, I give him very strong

credence. His logic is very strong.

 

The fact that the GBC's have never investigated this situation and have never

made any public apology for the unfortunate history of their projects is very

disturbing to me. In fact, I must say that it makes me question their

qualification as spiritual leaders.

 

I am happy to see that you personally are working on reports for New

Vrndavana, etc. Much better late than never. The past history of New

Vrndavana should also be investigated. Once again, as Vyapaka prabhu points

out, the mathematics do not add up. According to the number of cows they bred

per year, there should be many more cows there. The situation is somewhat

awkward because is seems that much of the problem took place while New

Vrndavana was not part of ISKCON. Nevertheless, those cows originally

belonged to ISKCON. They did not leave ISKCON when the leader of their

community became a demon. They were trapped there. So, still ultimately, we

should take the responsibility.

 

On the other hand, any community can, on its own investigate its record of

abuses -- to the cows, to the children, to the women, and even to other

devotees -- it can work to come up with its true history, no matter how

shameful that history may be. Then it can present that history before the

devotees, before Srila Prabhupada and before the Deities. It can pray for

forgiveness and pray for the intelligence and the spirit of cooperation to

rectify the sins of the past. Out of such an act of purification can come

great hope and a very practical lesson for generations of the future not to

repeat our grievous errors.

 

I feel very strongly that much of our current troubles of quarrels come from

our failure to come to grips with our shameful history of cow abuse in

ISKCON. The GBC where abuse has occurred probably have a good idea of what

has happened. Certainly it is their duty to Srila Prabhupada to make sure

that the management of all their communities is going nicely. If cows are

being abused, it means that "all the affairs of management [are going] to

hell" as Srila Prabhupada states in the Seventh Canto.

 

How can ISKCON progress unless we atone for our offenses to Krsna's

messengers, the cows?

 

But it is so much more than simply clearing out the bad karma from our sins of

the past (or even of the present). If only we will investigate this situation

with the cows, when we seriously look for the answers to solve the problem we

will change our way of life in a manner that will be much more conducive to

Krsna consciousness.

 

Sarve sukhino bhavantu -- Make Everyone Happy -- is what Srila Prabhupada said

many times. And that begins with the cows. If we make arrangements so that

the cows can actually be taken care of nicely, it will require a complete

social restructuring. And that complete restructuring, to "thoroughly

overhaul society" as Prabhupada put it, will be into a society where everyone

is treated well, and everyone is encouraged in his or her service to Krsna.

 

You ask what is next? What is next is abuse of the elderly -- that's you and

me in a very few more years. That's really what is next -- unless we clean up

ISKCON and beg Krsna for forgiveness for our spiritual blindness and our sins

of the past.

 

Children, women, cows.... I just have to say that I was not surprised that

Vrndavana, which is noted for its history of child abuse, and which has

evidently lost several hundred cows over the years, was the site of the recent

beatings of women. Vrndavana has never publicly apologized for its history of

child abuse or cow abuse. This indicates a very weak spiritual leadership.

Thus, I am not at all surprised to hear about women abuse. These things are

all connected. Without a doubt there are many sincere devotees living and

serving Prabhupada there, including the current cowherd. However, when the

leadership is so weak that it will not apologize instantly and seek atonement

for all its abuses to the children and cows and women, it creates a great

handicap for the general spiritual advancement of our society.

 

The question must be asked: Are people who will not uphold the principles

taught by Srila Prabhupada and the laws of ISKCON fit to be our spiritual

leaders?

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/10/99 9:40:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, ISCOWP (AT) bbt (DOT) se

writes:

 

<< And what about the 2 cows and 1 bull sold for breeding? It is the

Ministry's recommendation that these animals be sought after and brought

back to Murari.

We pray they have not been slaughtered yet.

>>

 

I applaud the ISCOWP for creating a responsible system of accounting for our

mother cows. Perhaps the cows could be given birth certificates as well as

death certificates, to help protect their peaceful existence and help us be

accountable for them.

 

When we take on responsibility for a cow or any animal, that responsibility

is a lifetime commitment for that animal's natural life. That animal becomes

a member of the family. Family members are not traded in for better stock.

We are to learn to unconditionally love and support them.

 

Srila Prabhupada taught us that if a cow lives a natural life duration the

next birth that jiva would take birth in the human form. To prevent the

living entities chance to become human and have the opportunity of solving

the riddle of samsara though Krishna consciousness is the greatest violence.

Our duty as Vaisnavas is to facilitate Krishna consciousness in this human

form.

 

Societies that do not give protection to women and children, also abuse

animals. The next segment of the population to get abused are old men. When

will the abuse end? We are all in-line for abuse sooner are later, if we

don't stop it now.

 

YS, Kusha devi dasi

[Guest guest]

> We have had neglect. Honestly if you

> were to see our cow report you'd know that we're not blind about this, and

> we work bloody hard all day, we still have problems! It boils down to damage

> control and gradually upgrading an inherited problem in a responsible and

> sustainable way. We are well below the standards, I can admit that and I am

> a cowherder

 

I totally hear this. I could cut and paste this for New Vrindaban. Most

devotees don't care anything about cows except to satisfy tongue with the milk,

a few making lots of sacrificies to maintain barely minimal conditionsd, and

the passers through criticizing the few for not having the higher standard when

it is the apathy of the many that created the situation. The simplistic

looking

for a magic bullet to solve the problems instead of the difficult committements

to attain true standards.

 

 

 

 

>

> Should there not be a ban imposed on the breeding and enforced as there

> seems little point in GBC passing laws such as the cow protection one, if

> nobody takes any notice of them?

> ys

 

There are very exacting and prohibitive preconditions to breeding contained in

the GBC resolution, meant to prevent future such occurences. Enforcement is

problematic, but at least the knowledge is there.

 

The point of the Standards were so anyone could have some systematic idea of

what should be going on, so the old excuse "We didn't know!" is no longer

acceptable.

[Guest guest]

> Or, even the first one year's blood money could have been used to buy the

> fencing and the problem would have been solved. Instead the money was used

> for what? And for how many years?

 

I was going to make the same point. How much does 5 miles of fencing cost.

Surely $11,000 would cover it?

 

YS

[Guest guest]

High tensile fencing installed by a professional runs about $1 US @ foot plus

$150 US per brace station. The number of brace stations is determined by the

number of turns and gates. For sake of discussion, say 10 stations per mile.

One mile would thus be around $6800 US. Assuming the $10,000 was Canadian

currency, it still seems possible to do 1 mile per year. Depending on shape,

but with a square enclosing the most possible space, that is about 40 acres

by

rough calculation. A four year plan enclosing a space could end up with a

square with a perimeter of 4 miles of fence totaling 640 acres.

 

Obviously there are a lot of variables, so none of this should be taken as

other

than ballparking.

 

"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2770737 from COM]

>

> > Or, even the first one year's blood money could have been used to buy the

> > fencing and the problem would have been solved. Instead the money was used

> > for what? And for how many years?

>

> I was going to make the same point. How much does 5 miles of fencing cost.

> Surely $11,000 would cover it?

>

> YS

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2769448 from COM]

>

> Dvibhuja dasa

> Ø Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada if we should farm communally

or

> seperate and he replied that faming meant communally.

>

> I believe this is the quote he is referring to, from conversations with

> devotees on August 1, 1975 in New Talavan.

>

> Nityänanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce

> the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food

> independently?

> Prabhupäda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Commu nity

means

> work everything for the community.

> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

> Prabhupäda: No, it is service (?).

 

There is a distinct difference between commuinty and communally. Communally is

a

function of common ownership. Community is a function of common goals.

 

For instance, it is not necessary that every family owns there own apple

press.

The time it takes to set it up and clean it, for a small amount of apples or

grapes, may be prohibitive, but if I could take my juice apples to someone

who

is going to be juicing all day, and give a portion of the juice in exchange,

my

time is better utilised.

 

The extra juice the juice man makes he can trade to someone who specialized in

drying tomatoes, etc. That seems to be what Srila Prabhupada is saying. In

communal living, none wants to prune the trees, compost them, keep the grass

down, pick the apples or press them. But they will all show up to drink the

juice.

 

Communism doesn't work.

 

The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application within a

larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of organization.

Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am currently observing the

systematic dismantling and destruction of New Vrindaban by the leadership that

still functions on a communal paradigm. The 70s are over guys, Trotsky and

Che

are dead.

[Guest guest]

Dear Malati Prabhu,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

> [Text 2769531 from COM]

>

> Hare Krishna..Is there documentation proof as of this horror storey?

> (ie:some kind of facts to verify the statements?) I think this is very

> important in order to get your points across effectively and insure an

> adequate response.

 

Yes, there is documentation. Bhaktin Debbie has gone down to the stockyard

and spoken to the man in charge. He remembered the cows as they appeared to

him to be different than all the others. He said they were well mannered and

obedient and somehow different. Bhaktin Debbie explained that she trained

the oxen and was very close to them. The man then produced all the

documentation of their sale, their description, and a copy of the check paid

for them. Bhaktine Debbie has the copies. She went down there to check on

the 3 which were sold for breeding. The man told her that the person who

they were sold to doesn't keep the animals he buys for very long because he

buys and sells and most likely they have been slaughtered. Remember they

were sold in June and Debbie just spoke to him a few days ago. The man will

speak to the person they were sold to, to find out their fate and will then

get back to Bhaktin Debbie.

 

We are all waiting to hear if the numbers have increased to 14 cows

slaughtered. We are praying to Lord Krsna.

 

Your servant,

Balabhadra das

[Guest guest]

But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

 

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

talavan (AT) com (DOT) org <talavan (AT) com (DOT) org>; COM: Cow (Protection and related

issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Thursday, November 11, 1999 4:50 AM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2771099 from COM]

>

>

>

>"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" wrote:

>

>> [Text 2769448 from COM]

>>

>> Dvibhuja dasa

>> Ø Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada if we should farm

communally

>or

>> seperate and he replied that faming meant communally.

>>

>> I believe this is the quote he is referring to, from conversations with

>> devotees on August 1, 1975 in New Talavan.

>>

>> Nityänanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and

produce

>> the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food

>> independently?

>> Prabhupäda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Commu nity

>means

>> work everything for the community.

>> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

>> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

>> Prabhupäda: No, it is service (?).

>

>There is a distinct difference between commuinty and communally.

Communally is

>a

>function of common ownership. Community is a function of common goals.

>

>For instance, it is not necessary that every family owns there own apple

>press.

>The time it takes to set it up and clean it, for a small amount of apples

or

>grapes, may be prohibitive, but if I could take my juice apples to

someone

>who

>is going to be juicing all day, and give a portion of the juice in

exchange,

>my

>time is better utilised.

>

>The extra juice the juice man makes he can trade to someone who specialized

in

>drying tomatoes, etc. That seems to be what Srila Prabhupada is saying.

In

>communal living, none wants to prune the trees, compost them, keep the

grass

>down, pick the apples or press them. But they will all show up to drink

the

>juice.

>

>Communism doesn't work.

>

>The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application

within a

>larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of organization.

>Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am currently observing

the

>systematic dismantling and destruction of New Vrindaban by the leadership

that

>still functions on a communal paradigm. The 70s are over guys, Trotsky

and

>Che

>are dead.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Communism doesn't work.

>

> The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application

> within a larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of

> organization. Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am

> currently observing the systematic dismantling and destruction of New

> Vrindaban by the leadership that still functions on a communal paradigm.

> The 70s are over guys, Trotsky and Che are dead.

 

Dvibhuja das wrote:

 

> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

 

So would you say they where promoting Communism for their devotees as a

social and economical form of living?

[Guest guest]

Martin wrote:

 

> [Text 2771581 from COM]

>

> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

 

And? Please show where they ever espoused communism as a means for societal

organization. The proferred quote certainly didn't.

 

Commu nity

 

> >means

> >> work everything for the community.

> >> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

> >> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

 

It doesn't say working for the commune.

[Guest guest]

On 10 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

I just have to say that I was not surprised that Vrndavana...was the site of

the recent beatings of women.

 

Dear Vaisnavas & Vaisnavis,

 

Please accept my respectful obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I wasn't there in Vrndavana. I'm stuck in this "remote corner of the world"

called Alachua, where one day in the future "New Raman Reti" will manifest.

But I have a friend (name withheld) whose sister-in-law witnessed the entire

series of events. This is what he wrote to me:

 

 

Last night my wife called up her sister (wife of temple devotee, ----das), who

lives in Vrindavan and who witnessed the "beating" incident.

 

According to my sister-in-law, what happened is as follows:

 

With regard to men offering their obeisances in front of Sri Sri

Radha-Syamasundara--particularly sannyasis--it was decided beforehand by

temple authorities that the ladies in front of Sri Sr

[Guest guest]

On 10 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>I just have to say that I was not surprised that Vrndavana...was the >site of

the recent beatings of women.

 

 

Dear Vaisnavas & Vaisnavis,

 

Please accept my respectful obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I wasn't there in Vrndavana. I'm stuck in this "remote corner of the world"

called Alachua, where one day in the future "New Raman Reti" will manifest.

But I have a friend (name withheld) whose sister-in-law witnessed the entire

series of events. This is what he wrote to me:

 

 

Last night my wife called up her sister (wife of temple devotee, ----das), who

lives in Vrindavan and who witnessed the "beating" incident.

 

According to my sister-in-law, what happened is as follows:

 

With regard to men offering their obeisances in front of Sri Sri

Radha-Syamasundara--particularly sannyasis--it was decided beforehand by

temple authorities that the ladies in front of Sri Sri Radha-Syamasundara

should move back to let them offer their obeisances, and afterwords they may

come forward as usual. The ladies were informed of this.

 

However, the women were not cooperating--they would not move for the

sannyasis and brahmacaris to offer their obeisances. And aparently this

non-cooperation went on for some few days.

 

Then on that "fateful morning," some senior men in the temple (temple

commander, Aindra Prabhu, and some others) joined their hands and formed a

human chain to prevent the mothers from standing where the sannyasis were

offering their obeisances.

 

The mothers became upset and started pushing, trying to break the chain. The

so-called "beating" incident was when Parvati Mataji almost succeded in

breaking through the chain and the temple commander (a brahmacari) grabbed her

hand to prevent her from moving forward. According to my sister-in-law,

nothing more than this happened. There were no "beatings,gang-rapes," etc.

 

According to my sister-in-law, the ladies who were mainly responsible for

this were Parvati dd, Ganga Mata dd (disciple of Narayana Maharaj, and who

works in the Gurukula), Radha-Kunda Mataji (Jasomatinandan Prabhu's wife),

Krishna-das Kaviraja Prabhu's wife, and others.

 

According to my sister-in-law, Parvati Mataji was saying to other ladies

that since Srila Prabhupada always stood in the back, the men (sannyasis,

et. al) should also stand in the back and let the women go up front. My

wife commented: "What's this nonsense that the men should follow Srila

Prabhupada's example and stand in the back but the women should not follow

Srila Prabhupada's example and stand in the back? They don't want to follow

Srila Prabhupada."

 

I asked my wife (born and raised in India), how Indian men, women, and

sannyasis would co-exist in any other temple. She said that what the women

would do is also go up front and have darshan (usually on another side apart

from the men), but when a sannyasi comes to offer obeisances and have darshan,

out of respect they move away and then come back after he leaves.

 

My sister-in-law said, "It is awful what they (Western women in

particular) are trying to do."

 

All this I have heard from my wife, who spoke directly with her sister.

 

Your servant,

_________das

[Guest guest]

I would say that this ISKCON was founded by Srila Prabhupada and in my

experience it functions nicely if we are in the fire so to speak. So It

would seem prdent to understand how to increase our attachement to the

devotional process, not just consider it useless because some people find it

not to their likeing.

Please don't misunderstand I can comprehend that sometimes change comes as

we more realize the instructions of Guru and Gouranga however in the case of

devotees becoming independent in all aspects of our service, this is not

always the way. I know in the case of a car or something if you own it you

tend to take better care of it, but what if you should happen to truly

understand that the car belongs to Krishna and gradually by the Grace of

Guru and Gouranga one develops some attachment to pleasing Krishna. Then at

that point the car would be better taken care of because we want to please

Krishna. So the problem could be that we don't love Krishna enough. Not

that the car belongs to ISKCON or me. So this I believe can work also

although one doesn't have to exclude the other.

One has to admit that at some point we have to have some type of communal

effort. If you distribut Prasadam, someone has to own the van, the pots,

and have a bank balance to pay for the gas. So If that someone happens to

be an ISKCON temple president who is inspired to serve in this way, then

does that not mean communism of a sort. Of course this che crap is for

those who worship che. We worship Srila Prabhupada and therefore we see

that he is pleased when we work cooperatively together. Actually everything

is owned by the Brahmanas already so we have nothing to give to them. This

is stated by Maharaj Prthu in the fourth canto. So everything ultimately

belongs to Krishna. So where is the question of our owning something.

But of course the point is what works to spread this Sankirtana movement

and in relation to cow protection, it is not philosophical. Show me how you

will take 150 cows and tell somebody here don't kill them, sell them, make

sure you feed them nicely all at your own expense, and its ok if you take

some milk for selling. It just isn't going to work. We spend many

thousands of dollars each year maintaining the cows here. So my experience

is most people who want just the independence wants the part of the cow that

makes the milk, not the part that takes the feed. So does it matter whethe

you call it communism or demoncrazy or whatever, if we are sold out to

please Srila Prabhupada the burden of cow protection will overwhelm us and

we will be dwelling in the same planet Drumilla is going to unless he

receives the special mercy of the Lord which of course is possible because

this is Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana movement.

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) <Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Martin <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Thursday, November 11, 1999 11:20 AM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2771985 from COM]

>

>>

>> Communism doesn't work.

>>

>> The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application

>> within a larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of

>> organization. Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am

>> currently observing the systematic dismantling and destruction of New

>> Vrindaban by the leadership that still functions on a communal paradigm.

>> The 70s are over guys, Trotsky and Che are dead.

>

>Dvibhuja das wrote:

>

>> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

>

>So would you say they where promoting Communism for their devotees as a

>social and economical form of living?

>

[Guest guest]

Again I have to say that Mother Hare Krishna is becoming more and more noted

for appearing like someone who is more concerned with stirring the fire than

putting it out. I agree when there is some legitimate problem she is a very

well respected mother and should be given all respect as a very dear

devotee, but lately I must say that on a few occasions she is coming across

as somewhat of an instigator. Maybe this is required I don't know and I

don't want to be disrespectful, but it seems that if we are going to right

the wrongs and save the downtrodden, first we should know the facts.

otherwise we become part of the problem.

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) <Guru-Krsna.HDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Bhakti-tirtha

Swami <btswami (AT) ibm (DOT) net>; COM: Gopal Krsna Goswami

<Gopal.Krsna.Goswami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Malati (dd) ACBSP (Columbus - USA)

<Malati.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp) (Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se>;

BKGoswami (AT) compuserve (DOT) com <BKGoswami (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>

Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:32 PM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2772335 from COM]

>

>On 10 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>>I just have to say that I was not surprised that Vrndavana...was the >site

of

>the recent beatings of women.

>

>

>Dear Vaisnavas & Vaisnavis,

>

>Please accept my respectful obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

>I wasn't there in Vrndavana. I'm stuck in this "remote corner of the world"

>called Alachua, where one day in the future "New Raman Reti" will manifest.

>But I have a friend (name withheld) whose sister-in-law witnessed the

entire

>series of events. This is what he wrote to me:

>

>

>Last night my wife called up her sister (wife of temple devotee, ----das),

who

>lives in Vrindavan and who witnessed the "beating" incident.

>

>According to my sister-in-law, what happened is as follows:

>

>With regard to men offering their obeisances in front of Sri Sri

>Radha-Syamasundara--particularly sannyasis--it was decided beforehand by

>temple authorities that the ladies in front of Sri Sri Radha-Syamasundara

>should move back to let them offer their obeisances, and afterwords they

may

>come forward as usual. The ladies were informed of this.

>

>However, the women were not cooperating--they would not move for the

>sannyasis and brahmacaris to offer their obeisances. And aparently this

>non-cooperation went on for some few days.

>

>Then on that "fateful morning," some senior men in the temple (temple

>commander, Aindra Prabhu, and some others) joined their hands and formed a

>human chain to prevent the mothers from standing where the sannyasis were

>offering their obeisances.

>

>The mothers became upset and started pushing, trying to break the chain.

The

>so-called "beating" incident was when Parvati Mataji almost succeded in

>breaking through the chain and the temple commander (a brahmacari) grabbed

her

>hand to prevent her from moving forward. According to my sister-in-law,

>nothing more than this happened. There were no "beatings,gang-rapes,"

etc.

>

>According to my sister-in-law, the ladies who were mainly responsible for

>this were Parvati dd, Ganga Mata dd (disciple of Narayana Maharaj, and who

>works in the Gurukula), Radha-Kunda Mataji (Jasomatinandan Prabhu's wife),

>Krishna-das Kaviraja Prabhu's wife, and others.

>

>According to my sister-in-law, Parvati Mataji was saying to other ladies

>that since Srila Prabhupada always stood in the back, the men (sannyasis,

>et. al) should also stand in the back and let the women go up front. My

>wife commented: "What's this nonsense that the men should follow Srila

>Prabhupada's example and stand in the back but the women should not follow

>Srila Prabhupada's example and stand in the back? They don't want to follow

>Srila Prabhupada."

>

>I asked my wife (born and raised in India), how Indian men, women, and

>sannyasis would co-exist in any other temple. She said that what the women

>would do is also go up front and have darshan (usually on another side

apart

>from the men), but when a sannyasi comes to offer obeisances and have

darshan,

>out of respect they move away and then come back after he leaves.

>

>My sister-in-law said, "It is awful what they (Western women in

>particular) are trying to do."

>

>All this I have heard from my wife, who spoke directly with her sister.

>

>Your servant,

>_________das

>

[Guest guest]

If the King is Krishna, who would mind working for Hime? It is just

semantics anyway. We are devotees and to try and legislate this ism or that

ism isn't them message of Lord Caitanya or Srila Prabhupada, the message is

simple that we surrender everything to Krishna. So you say well you should

not be communal in your surrender, but everything should be owned by Grhasta

and I say how do you propose to do that with cow protection. Lets don't

argue isms, what can be done now. On one hand you are crying the GBC has to

make sure that cows are being protected and on the other you are saying they

should be controlled by Grhasta. Please explain one example of where there

is any Grhasta taking care of 150 cows by himself. And if he is do you

think the GBC would be allowed to send the cows their when other temples in

His or Her zone has the need in order to protect the cow. Please just give

me your vision of how to protect comws without communal cooperation. Please

anybocy give me one practical example of how to do this in ISKCON. Not when

Ksatriyas ruled the earth or some other distant time. Right here and now or

even 30 or 40 years in the future. How to do it? That is what I mean. You

can call it communism if you want but the cows have to be protected by those

who do it to please Krishna and unfortunately show me the person right now

who can do it alone. Or one that can do it without remuneration of some

sort. For Gods sake many times the pujaris are paid in ISKCON, and they

don't even have to slosh trought the mud in the freezing weather, or be

kicked oar have to chase calves and mothers sometimes. So again I have all

respect for the concept that in general people are more inclined to work if

they are well remenunerated which is sort of what is being put forth, but

Cow protection is not like that in reality. It is not profitable in the

mundane sense. If it was it would be the Vedic culture. The milk is cheap,

but the meat is the most materialistically desirable. So if its my dairy,

then who the hell are you or some GBC to tell me I can't sell some cows to

maintain the rest of the herd. Already this has happened. But everyone

even Mother Hare Krishna is so busy shooting down the ISKCON projects and

then Maharj comes up with this lets us privatize utopian idea, when actually

the problem is where is your devotion to fixing the system we have. Oh the

system is wrong, thats why it doesn't work. Not Drumilla should never have

been in charge of a temple therefore it is the problem of management not the

system. The system may change but no matter what system it is if we are not

Krishna Conscious it will be a failure.

Again I ask anyone to tell me in a practical sense what should be done.

Don't just criticize that o NV has so much blood on their hands, Saranagati

di this, etc. Those things are of course to be corrrected, but what do you

suppose can be done to make sure that the temples are better equipped to

gradually reach that platform we are all striving for. When the oxens are

engaged properly according to Srila Prabhupada's desire, when mother cows

milk is appreciated by everyone devotees and karmis alike. In the form of

yogurt,butter,ghee,butter,curd,etc. I wish that at least someone would be a

little more practical about helping these communities that are striving to

actually implement cow protection. Not just sit back and say Oh can you

beleive they did this or that. Half the time it is an exxageration anyway

and the other half it was corrected already and the other half are trying

their best. So we sat back and do our little thing and say look at those

skinny cows. So in this way Drumillas flourish. Where is the actual

commitment. Is it time to milk. How can I adopt a team of oxen. Can I

help bring some devotees to some farm and start this oxen program. I guess

not unless you can make a buck right?

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Thursday, November 11, 1999 2:10 PM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2772250 from COM]

>

>

>

>Martin wrote:

>

>> [Text 2771581 from COM]

>>

>> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

>

>And? Please show where they ever espoused communism as a means for

societal

>organization. The proferred quote certainly didn't.

>

>Commu nity

>

>> >means

>> >> work everything for the community.

>> >> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of

the

>> >> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

>

>It doesn't say working for the commune.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I am happy to see that you personally are working on reports for New

> Vrndavana, etc. Much better late than never. The past history of New

> Vrndavana should also be investigated. Once again, as Vyapaka prabhu

> points out, the mathematics do not add up. According to the number of

> cows they bred per year, there should be many more cows there. The

> situation is somewhat awkward because is seems that much of the problem

> took place while New Vrndavana was not part of ISKCON. Nevertheless,

> those cows originally belonged to ISKCON. They did not leave ISKCON when

> the leader of their community became a demon. They were trapped there.

> So, still ultimately, we should take the responsibility.

 

You erred very gravely in your imperfect assessment that the previous leader

of New Vrindavana became a demon. Temporary fall down in Krishna

consciousness does not neccessarily amount to someone becoming a demon. Lord

Krishna points out in the Bhagavad-gita, "api cet suduracaro bhajante mam

ananya bhak sadhu eva ... ksipram bhavati dharmatma..

In commenting on these two famous verses of the Gita, Srila Bhaktivinode

Thakura said a fallen devotee due to some mistake is still a sadhu, and a

person who will have such a view of such devotee becomes a thoroughly

religious person.

We should be very careful on what kind of mentality we have towards our

fallen leaders. Afterall, what makes you think you are better situated than

that person?

 

ys,

 

Isvara dasa.

[Guest guest]

COM: Isvara (das) GGS (Vrindavana - IN)

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

> [Text 2774135 from COM]

>

> > Vrndavana should also be investigated. Once again, as Vyapaka prabhu

> > points out, the mathematics do not add up. According to the number of

> > cows they bred per year, there should be many more cows there. The

> > situation is somewhat awkward because is seems that much of the problem

> > took place while New Vrndavana was not part of ISKCON. Nevertheless,

> > those cows originally belonged to ISKCON. They did not leave ISKCON

when

> > the leader of their community became a demon. They were trapped there.

> > So, still ultimately, we should take the responsibility.

>

> You erred very gravely in your imperfect assessment that the previous

leader

> of New Vrindavana became a demon. Temporary fall down in Krishna

> consciousness does not necessarily amount to someone becoming a demon.

Lord

> Krishna points out in the Bhagavad-gita, "api cet suduracaro bhajante mam

> ananya bhak sadhu eva ... ksipram bhavati dharmatma..

> In commenting on these two famous verses of the Gita, Srila Bhaktivinode

> Thakura said a fallen devotee due to some mistake is still a sadhu, and a

> person who will have such a view of such devotee becomes a thoroughly

> religious person.

>

We should be very careful on what kind of mentality we have towards our

> fallen leaders. Afterall, what makes you think you are better situated

than

> that person?

 

>From Malati dd

[Text 2774464 from COM]

 

<Thank you ISwara for your clear vision on a sensitive issue.>

 

Your compassion for those who fall down is laudable, however when the fall

downs encompass activities which are criminal and bring great harm to the

vulnerable members of our society then the compassion is misplaced. You are

forgetting the victims to whom you must give attention and compassion.

 

In the case of Kirtananda (whom we are referring to here), He did tremendous

service to Srila Prabhupada which Lord Krsna will never forget, but he also

committed criminal acts towards the cows, children, and women under his

care. By Lord Krsna's arrangement he is suffering his punishment by USA law.

It should be noted that his first criminal arrest was for animal abuse

(abuse to the cows) years before any subsequent arrests.

 

There is a grave difference between fall down and criminal activity. It is

this mentality of confusing fall down with criminal activity that has

allowed homosexual pedophiles in the guise of devotees, who abused countless

young, innocent and trusting young boys, remain in positions of respect

within our movement years after the abuse was reported. It is this confusion

with fall down and criminal activity that has allowed a devotee who sexually

assaulted young girls and women to live within an ISKCON USA community for

years after the said acts without any punishment, statement, thorough

investigation from the authorities. It is this confusion between fall down

and criminal activity that allows a devotee like Drumilla, who recently

criminally sold 11 (and now possibly 14) cows to the slaughter house, go on

with his life without any immediate statement from our leaders to the

criminality of this act.

 

Compassion is laudable and necessary but let us bestow it largely upon the

innocent, vulnerable members of our society (cows, women, children and

eventually old men)some of who will now suffer the rest of their lives with

horrific memories rather then solely to the great "Sadhus" who victimized

them in a so called fall down.

 

Your servants,

Balabhadra das & Chayadevi

[Guest guest]

Dear Balabhadra Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Obviously I am not confusing criminal activities with falldown. As a partial

witness to what went on in New Vrindavana in those days, no members of that

community was immune to the activities that took place. Of course the leader

bore the brunt of the consequences of what happened.

The points in my comment was that fall-down of a devotee should never be

cause of jubilation for any devotee, rather should be a reflection upon

ourselves to assess how much is our surrendering process to Krishna. Like

Srila Prabhupada would said that "I am simply praying to Radharani that I do

not fall down"

In reality, the desire to advance the Krishna consciousness movement in the

beginning led to apparent criminal activities due mainly to insufficient

understanding of Krishna consciousness and the grace of the Supreme Lord.

Just consider sankirtana tactics in America and also may be Europe, where

every devotees had to cohersed the karmis by using various lying methods to

get money from the public. Is that not criminal?. Devotees even shoplifted

in Supermarket because afterall as they say "everything belongs to Krishna".

If that is not criminal, then what is it?

The fact is that mistakes have been made by all the devotees, and there is

no exception. The way to rectify those mistakes is not by pointing fingers,

but by soul searching among ourselves.

 

Ys,

 

Isvara dasa.

[Guest guest]

Martin wrote:

 

> [Text 2772861 from COM]

>

> I would say that this ISKCON was founded by Srila Prabhupada and in my

> experience it functions nicely if we are in the fire so to speak.

 

Yes, it works great communally for some people for some time, but being "in

the fire" is not easily sustainable for most devotees.

 

> So It

> would seem prdent to understand how to increase our attachement to the

> devotional process, not just consider it useless because some people find it

> not to their likeing.

 

Here you seem to be equating devotional process with communalism. I don't

think

that is valid. Devotional service is not limited by socio economic paradigms.

However, you will find little in sastra to support communalism and much to

support private ownership, although not exactly in the sense Americans

percieve

ownership. Limited forms of communalism will always have their place, but not

as an organizational vehicle for a greater mobilization of larger populations.

[Guest guest]

> On one hand you are crying

 

Do I come accross as weepy?

 

> the GBC has to

> make sure that cows are being protected and on the other you are saying they

> should be controlled by Grhasta.

 

Where did I say that? I think you are trying to challenge me on a point I'm

not

making.

 

> Please just give

> me your vision of how to protect comws without communal cooperation.

 

Through the establishment of Trusts with cows as the beneficiary and the

Trustees acting as ksatriyas allocating resources.

 

> You

> can call it communism if you want but the cows have to be protected by those

> who do it to please Krishna and unfortunately show me the person right now

> who can do it alone.

 

As I have never advocated that position(doing it alone), I feel little need to

defend it.

 

> Cow protection is not like that in reality. It is not profitable in the

> mundane sense.

 

I agree. New Vrindaban is certainly the example of abysmal failure where

trying

to make a profit from cows is concerned.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> In the case of Kirtananda (whom we are referring to here), He did tremendous

> service to Srila Prabhupada which Lord Krsna will never forget, but he also

> committed criminal acts towards the cows, children, and women under his

> care. By Lord Krsna's arrangement he is suffering his punishment by USA law.

> It should be noted that his first criminal arrest was for animal abuse

> (abuse to the cows) years before any subsequent arrests.

 

As always, I preface any remarks about Kirtanananda by saying I have no desire

to have him back in management, and that he is where he belongs, getting the

treatment he needs for his advancement. As for his first arrest, those

charges

were dropped. The cows died in a blizzard where it became impossible to feed

them. 20,000 cows died in WV in that blizzard.

 

But it is true, he built up the herd numbers, directly against the advice of

at least one life long farmer (me) and when it didn't turn out the way he

thought it would, he turned his back on them and pulled the plug on the

funding, causing a lot of unnecessary deaths and suffering. For that, he is

himself now suffering.

[Guest guest]

These points are very pertinent. Legitimate criticism is good, but Mother

Hare Krishna who we all give great respect for her work is becoming guilty

of jumping the gun in the name of cow protection. She needs to understand

that she represents ISKCOWP and is the flag bearer of cow protection in

ISKCON, so she has to be more careful in her reporting of the situations

that surely always develop when trying to protect Krishna's cows. This may

be new ground but I think it time to address this issue of saying these

things without legitemate substaniation of the the issue.

Also the idea of giving some power to ISKCOWP. Possibly we could organize

a membership where `there was some positive organiztional function whereby

we could in a nonsecterain spirit function as an educational body as well as

a protectorate as well. Then in this mood funds could be raised via this

conference and perhaps this could be the beginning of a way to better serve

Srila Prabhupada's mission of cow and ox utilization and protection.

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

WWW: Jiva Goswami (Dasa) SDG (Newnansville FL - USA) <JivaGo (AT) FDT (DOT) Net>

COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama

development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Bir Krishna Goswami

<70324.1511 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>; COM: Balavanta (das) ACBSP

<Balavanta.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Kalakantha (das) ACBSP (Alachua - USA)

<Kalakantha.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Damon S Campbell <damoncampbell (AT) juno (DOT) com>; COM:

Mukhya (dd) (SysOp) (Lund - S) <Mukhya (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Tirtharaj (das) TKG

(Brisbane - AU) <Tirtharaj.TKG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu

<npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; sawmilldirect (AT) webtv (DOT) net <sawmilldirect (AT) webtv (DOT) net>;

Rennaissanceart (AT) webtv (DOT) net <Rennaissanceart (AT) webtv (DOT) net>

Monday, November 15, 1999 7:50 PM

A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2782095 from COM]

>

>On 08 Nov 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Hare Krsna dasi 8 Nov 1999

>>

>> A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

>>

>> ***ABSTRACT: A recent incident of cow abuse in ISKCON has led to focus on

>> the alleged perpetrator of the crime, but cow abuse in ISKCON has been

>> widespread and on-going. ISKCON's history of cow abuse should be

analyzed

>> carefully, not simply to vilify certain individuals, but to examine how

>> organizational weaknesses lead to situations that foster abuse.

>..

>

>> 3. In about 1993 or 1994, I heard that through neglect, an ox wandered

>> into the hay barn at Gita-nagari, fell partway through the floor boards

>> and was slowly electrocuted to death by the barn's electrical system.

>> Also around that time, I had my heart broken to learn that Burfi, our

>> handsome Brown Swiss lead ox at Gita-nagari for 12 years - who had even

>> pulled a cart in front of the White House - was left for a number of days

>> to die in a mud hole in the freezing winter weather.

>> ...

>

>

>Reformation of cow protection in our society is an extremely important

task. I

>can't imagine that any follower of Srila Prabhupada could sell, give or

>whatever, cows for slaughter as described at Murari. I think I met that

>devotee years ago. I'm appalled. There is a sad legacy in ISKCON of

failure,

>abuse and neglect in nearly all areas: Book distribution, Deity worship,

>protection of children and women, fund raising, and on and on.

>

>Having said that, the above quoted "fact" concerning the ox falling through

>the floor in Gita Nagari is a gross misrepresentation. This was pointed out

a

>couple of years ago when the same author posted the same misinformation. I

can

>only assume that the balance of the 650+ line post is of the same

character.

>It is gossip on the National Inquirer/VNN standard. Maybe we need a Grocery

>Checkout Tabloid Conference. There is more than enough gossip in my remote

>corner of the world that I don't need it on a global level. This kind of

lack

>of objectivity, poor reasoning and demagoguery is far more pervasive and

>possibly closer to the core of ISKCON's problems than the particular issue

of

>the day. It certainly promotes apathy, as one doesn't know what to believe.

>The Vrindavan incident of late is another good example. Should I believe

these

>reports? The male chauvinist boor version? Or the feminist G.I. Jane

version?

>Should I still care? I actually prefer the Inquirer as I KNOW that story

about

>the baby switched at birth with an alien is just crap. It doesn't pretend

to

>be anything else.

>

>I'm interested in hearing about problems in our society and what is and/or

>what should be done about rectifying and atoning for the sins of the past.

I

>just wish that these kinds of sensationalized misrepresentations would not

>dominate the discussions. Thank God I've seen enough good in our society to

be

>able to put all the bad into perspective. The good has and still does

exist.

>Some times I wonder if some of our COM commentators ever get out? I'm more

or

>less useless, but even I go to the temple sometimes. We've had one great

>festival after another down here. I even got 3 loose ox back in their

fields

>just a couple of days ago.

>

>One solution to the particular problem of cow protection is to give the Cow

>Protection Minister real power. Big title looks good on the business card

but

>that's about it. How about giving the minister power to levy sanctions on

>neglectful GBC's, TP's or whoever. Real sanctions that could actually

>motivate.

>

>Your servant,

>

>Jiva Goswami das

>

[Guest guest]

Again the argument is for cow protection and ox utilization, not pottery and

even trunip growing. How one addresses the cow protection is different

because of the logisitics and the sacradness of the animals. Therefore how

do you propose to take care of the large numbers of cows we have now.

Certainly this is not philosophical. I say we have to encourage communal

support for our ISKCON and if you have some proposal of how to make the

transition, then please put it forth as this would be a start in the right

direction as you see it and perhaps all together we can start to improve

Iskcon cow protection and ox utilization.

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Monday, November 15, 1999 7:50 PM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2782097 from COM]

>

>

>

>Martin wrote:

>

>> [Text 2772861 from COM]

>>

>> I would say that this ISKCON was founded by Srila Prabhupada and in my

>> experience it functions nicely if we are in the fire so to speak.

>

>Yes, it works great communally for some people for some time, but being

"in

>the fire" is not easily sustainable for most devotees.

>

>> So It

>> would seem prdent to understand how to increase our attachement to the

>> devotional process, not just consider it useless because some people find

it

>> not to their likeing.

>

>Here you seem to be equating devotional process with communalism. I don't

>think

>that is valid. Devotional service is not limited by socio economic

paradigms.

>However, you will find little in sastra to support communalism and much to

>support private ownership, although not exactly in the sense Americans

>percieve

>ownership. Limited forms of communalism will always have their place, but

not

>as an organizational vehicle for a greater mobilization of larger

populations.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Martin wrote:

 

> [Text 2783767 from COM]

>

> These points are very pertinent. Legitimate criticism is good, but Mother

> Hare Krishna who we all give great respect for her work is becoming guilty

> of jumping the gun in the name of cow protection. She needs to understand

> that she represents ISKCOWP

 

I don't believe Mother Hare Krishna dasi has any direct connection with ISCOWP.