Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 > Therefore how > do you propose to take care of the large numbers of cows we have now. I keep feeling like you must not be reading my e mails because I have stated my position numerous times, yet you continue to place demand on me to explain. Apparently my powers of explanation are inadequate to communicate effectively with you. My proposals are contained in the Minimum Cow Standards that have been approved by the GBC. I can answer questions, if you were to read the document. Certainly the ideas are there in only bare bones fashion, but it is hard for me to fathom what it is you want? please read the Standards and then we could have some discussion on specific points, if they are not detailed enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 > > Just we should change the system. We need to enhance and expand the system. The stress in the Cow Standards is on small scale, with involvement of a broader range of folks than just specialized cowherds. This will manifest variously in various conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA) wrote: > [Text 2784870 from COM] > > > > Martin wrote: > > > [Text 2783767 from COM] > > > > These points are very pertinent. Legitimate criticism is good, but Mother > > Hare Krishna who we all give great respect for her work is becoming guilty > > of jumping the gun in the name of cow protection. She needs to understand > > that she represents ISKCOWP > > I don't believe Mother Hare Krishna dasi has any direct connection with ISCOWP. Madhava Gosh prabhu is correct. I greatly admired the patient work that Chaya and Balabhadra are doing for the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture -- and for ISCOWP (which is technically a separate entity), but I am not directly connected with them. And, it is even possible that they don't agree with my perspective or my methods in every instance. I certainly did not consult with them before posting my letters on cow slaughter at Murari or a history of cow abuse in ISKCON. That is my independent activity, and no one else should be held accountable for my personal actions. I still hope that by calling attention to widespread allegations of cow abuse in ISKCON, it will foster investigation, apology where warrented, rectification and improvement in our policies and actions concerning cow protection. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Maybe we should just let this one go. I kind of forget what it is all about anyway. My main point was to the statement of Maharaj corcerning the solution to the problem of cow protection specifically the one at Murari was when we become privatized or something meaning that. So I just thought that was a mistaken approach because it means that there is no solution now. Just we should change the system. Didn't make any sense, but I didn't want to attack anyone specific on the point so I just kind of blabbered. Please forgive my lack of format or continuity. YS Dvibhuja Das I'll try to do better in the future COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA) <Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Tuesday, November 16, 1999 6:50 PM Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON >[Text 2784886 from COM] > >> Therefore how >> do you propose to take care of the large numbers of cows we have now. > >I keep feeling like you must not be reading my e mails because I have stated my >position numerous times, yet you continue to place demand on me to explain. >Apparently my powers of explanation are inadequate to communicate effectively >with you. > >My proposals are contained in the Minimum Cow Standards that have been approved >by the GBC. I can answer questions, if you were to read the document. >Certainly the ideas are there in only bare bones fashion, but it is hard for >me >to fathom what it is you want? please read the Standards and then we could >have >some discussion on specific points, if they are not detailed enough. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 1999 Report Share Posted November 20, 1999 <<She needs to understand that she represents ISKCOWP << Also the idea of giving some power to ISKCOWP I'm sorry, but several times I noticed this and would like some clarity here: as far as I know there is no such thing as ISKCOWP ! Maybe it is not so important, but what are you talking about: ISKCON or ISCOWP ? These are not exactly the same societies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2000 Report Share Posted February 24, 2000 << Exactly, the brahmanas need to set the example. They ARE, but who recognises them and who respects or supports their efforts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2000 Report Share Posted February 24, 2000 Why don't we become great leaders. Rather than say what are they doing. We must become they. Otherwise, what kind of society will we become if we simply criticize those who have dedicated themselves to taking so much responsibility. What are we doing. All devotees are great and should be leaders. So let us take it from the mood fo how I can improve myself not always what about our leaders. I milk cows and I consider myself a leader. What is the criteria here. You have to have a certain designation in order to get a target. Please realize that Srila Prabhupada never wanted this type of criticism. Constructive criticism with some specific suggestions and maybe even gratitude for their wonderful contribution to our movement would probably be very much appreciated. YS Dvibhuja das COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) <Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Cc: Bir Krishna Goswami <70324.1511 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>; COM: Balavanta (das) ACBSP <Balavanta.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Kalakantha (das) ACBSP (Alachua - USA) <Kalakantha.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Caitanya Mangala (das) KKD (Mayapur - IN) <Caitanya.Mangala.KKD (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Damon S Campbell <damoncampbell (AT) juno (DOT) com>; COM: Tirtharaj (das) TKG (Brisbane - AU) <Tirtharaj.TKG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; sawmilldirect (AT) webtv (DOT) net <sawmilldirect (AT) webtv (DOT) net>; Rennaissanceart (AT) webtv (DOT) net <Rennaissanceart (AT) webtv (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Thursday, February 24, 2000 9:10 AM A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON >[Text 3040062 from COM] > >> I just wonder why not some of ISKCONs great leaders or brahmanas take the >> important action of showing exampel of themselfs practicly serving the >> cowes and thus causing the effect:whatever a great man do common men >> following. >> After all withuot proper vow protection their cannot be proper brahmanas >> and thus the head of society is gonne. > > >This is exactly what Prabhupada ordered his "great" leaders to do more >almost 26 years ago; divide themselves into the different varnas and perform >the specific duties accordingly. Some were to learn and teach the ksatriya >varna skills and sciences, some were to learn and teach the vaisya arts and >sciences, etc. > >The reason one would suspect that they did not follow this order of the guru >is due to false ego of preaching and thinking that as big gun sannyasis and >diksa gurus they would get the most profit, adoration and prestige. Of >course, maybe that's not the case. > >Why else, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2000 Report Share Posted February 24, 2000 > > The reason one would suspect that they did not follow this order of the > > guru is due to false ego of preaching and thinking that as big gun > > sannyasis and diksa gurus they would get the most profit, adoration and > > prestige. Of course, maybe that's not the case. > > > > Why else, then? > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! > > Maybe because the time and circumstances not allowed them yet to follow > this order. One also has to take into consideration that Iskcon and its > leaders and members need also some time for a change of paradigm from the > pioneering time of expanding the movement in all parts of the world to a > paradigm which facilitates moore its consolidation and the spiritual and > material wellbeing of its indipendently situated members. Thus taking care > for its own continuation in the future. Well, maybe. But Prabhupada is the one who said IT COULD BE DONE in 1977: "Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnashrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it. Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something." Leaders make the age, the age doesn't make the leaders. Until there is a strong movement of unified citizens to act against the bad leaders, not against the good leaders, there will be little change as we have seen so obviously over the last 20+ years. God helps those who help themselves. Arjuna HAD to fight even though Krsna had already killed everyone on the battlefield. There is clearly an illness amongst the leaders in power in ISKCON. To not admit this is naivete and apathetic. They may not even know it themselves or admit it. Prabhupada said they have manufactured a hellish idea, one which does not implement divisions of society according to natural guna and karma. This is what will continue to pound on the heads of everyone involved in the institution. Until the citizens demand freedom from mismanagement they will continue to be cheated. This is a bitter medicine which must be administered to "leaders" who will deny the need and will offer more empty promises. How is the Cow and farm inspection and reporting program going for example? Wasn't this a law passed by the GBC? I highly doubt they are following it well at all. How long do you propose to wait, Prabhu? I have estranged myself from ISKCON for many years and do not want to be affiliated in any way with it at this time because I do not condone any of the many child, cow and women abuses perpetrated by the leaders who MUST take responsibility for the same. Until there is a consensus of the GBCs and other leaders of ISKCON who will make a major act of contrition to all abused citizens and apologize to the world I will remain away and practice Krsna consciousness with my few devotee friends. > > To allways see only the negative side may be counterproductive for a > positive change in the mind and hearts of some of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2000 Report Share Posted February 25, 2000 The fact that you are estranged from Iskcon means you are what. Why are you decrying Iskcon. You are estranged from it. Yet you are an authority on it. If you don't help by being a humble servant of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon, then how can you be so bold to criticize. You deserted, then try to act like you are the hero. It is never too late by the mercy of Sri Guru and Gouranga, but you should not blashpheme those who have dedicated their lives to the propogation of the holy name otherwise you will suffer the results in some future life and the you will say why am I suffering. YS Dvibhuja das COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) <Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Cc: Bir Krishna Goswami <70324.1511 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>; COM: Balavanta (das) ACBSP <Balavanta.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Kalakantha (das) ACBSP (Alachua - USA) <Kalakantha.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Caitanya Mangala (das) KKD (Mayapur - IN) <Caitanya.Mangala.KKD (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Damon S Campbell <damoncampbell (AT) juno (DOT) com>; COM: Tirtharaj (das) TKG (Brisbane - AU) <Tirtharaj.TKG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; sawmilldirect (AT) webtv (DOT) net <sawmilldirect (AT) webtv (DOT) net>; Rennaissanceart (AT) webtv (DOT) net <Rennaissanceart (AT) webtv (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se> Thursday, February 24, 2000 3:40 PM A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON >[Text 3040613 from COM] > >> > The reason one would suspect that they did not follow this order of the >> > guru is due to false ego of preaching and thinking that as big gun >> > sannyasis and diksa gurus they would get the most profit, adoration and >> > prestige. Of course, maybe that's not the case. >> > >> > Why else, then? >> >> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! >> >> Maybe because the time and circumstances not allowed them yet to follow >> this order. One also has to take into consideration that Iskcon and its >> leaders and members need also some time for a change of paradigm from the >> pioneering time of expanding the movement in all parts of the world to a >> paradigm which facilitates moore its consolidation and the spiritual and >> material wellbeing of its indipendently situated members. Thus taking care >> for its own continuation in the future. > > >Well, maybe. But Prabhupada is the one who said IT COULD BE DONE in 1977: > >"Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A >pamphlet came out about introducing the varnashrama system in the society, >but actually nothing came of it. >Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something." > > >Leaders make the age, the age doesn't make the leaders. Until there is a >strong movement of unified citizens to act against the bad leaders, not >against the good leaders, there will be little change as we have seen so >obviously over the last 20+ years. God helps those who help themselves. >Arjuna HAD to fight even though Krsna had already killed everyone on the >battlefield. There is clearly an illness amongst the leaders in power in >ISKCON. To not admit this is naivete and apathetic. They may not even know >it themselves or admit it. > >Prabhupada said they have manufactured a hellish idea, one which does not >implement divisions of society according to natural guna and karma. This is >what will continue to pound on the heads of everyone involved in the >institution. Until the citizens demand freedom from mismanagement they will >continue to be cheated. > >This is a bitter medicine which must be administered to "leaders" who will >deny the need and will offer more empty promises. How is the Cow and farm >inspection and reporting program going for example? Wasn't this a law passed >by the GBC? I highly doubt they are following it well at all. > >How long do you propose to wait, Prabhu? > > > >I have estranged myself from ISKCON for many years and do not want to be >affiliated in any way with it at this time because I do not condone any of >the many child, cow and women abuses perpetrated by the leaders who MUST >take responsibility for the same. Until there is a consensus of the GBCs and >other leaders of ISKCON who will make a major act of contrition to all >abused citizens and apologize to the world I will remain away and practice >Krsna consciousness with my few devotee friends. > > > > >> >> To allways see only the negative side may be counterproductive for a >> positive change in the mind and hearts of some of us. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2000 Report Share Posted February 25, 2000 Now this is a constructive suggestion. Your servant, Pancha Tattva dasa On 24 Feb 2000, Madhava Gosh wrote: > Yes, If I was running ISKCON, we would set up a program where only protected > milk would be offered to the Deities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2000 Report Share Posted February 26, 2000 > The fact that you are estranged from Iskcon means you are what. Why are > you decrying Iskcon. You are estranged from it. Yet you are an authority > on it. If you don't help by being a humble servant of Srila Prabhupada's > Iskcon, then how can you be so bold to criticize. You deserted, then try > to act like you are the hero. Yes. I am a fool and have been a fool most of my life. I will try to increase my chanting of the Holy Name and perhaps my anger at abusive pretentious people will diminish in time. I hope someone within ISKCON will begin to truly defend the honor of the innocent, unprotected mahatmas and cows who have suffered so greatly for years and years lest they be forgotten. Thank you for the reminder, Prabhu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2000 Report Share Posted February 28, 2000 Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON >>The fact that you are estranged from Iskcon means you are what. Why are >>you decrying Iskcon. What we should be concerned with is how to make Iskcon more habitable for mentally healthy, alert, responsible, people, ..rather we use the philosophy to riddle them with guilt about being estranged, or for leaving the movement, or having complaints based on factual observation about the movement, when all we have to do is ask them why?...and LISTEN. Maybe we can thus find the clue as to what we are doing wrong that is causing so many souls to leave Iskcon's shelter, and embittering them. Even as we can see with Janesvara, souls who are still concerned with the welfare and future of Iskcon. He's not actually estranged I would say, he's probably chosen to estrange himself from various avaisnava practices (like cow abuse that passes off as protection) that can go on in the name of KC, not KC itself. I'm that way myself, personally. Quite a healthy, positive alternative to blindly running with the herd speaking from practical experience. Oh, in his next letter Janesvara goes to prove my point- he is not estranged from KC: When I was a member of ISKCON and I saw even a hint of spousal abuse or women abuse I would interject immediately with physical force if necessary. Several times I went face to face with an abusive husband or brahmacari and made it painfully clear of the consequences they could suffer as the result of their abusive actions. I am not an apathetic person. I was temple commander of one of the biggest temples in the movement (Brooklyn) and I was a brahmacari at the time. Others were devious and abusive to the brahmacarinis but I still had to make sure they had their supplies of feminine hygiene articles, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, etc. for their asrama handing them out personally to the women with respect and gentlemanliness. It is not a hard thing to do. But the mind has to at least be out of the gutter of pretentious "advancement" and admit to low born qualities with humility and truth. This is what I saw the greatest lack of in the so-called leaders at the time. I presume the same disease is rampant in your ISKCON AP now. >> You are estranged from it. Yet you are an authority >on it. There is a difference between having an opinion and voicing it and being an authority. It is not only mouthpieces for the GBC who can be listened to, or even considered an authority. They may even disagree with the GBC- on the basis of loyalty to Prabhupada. If more people did this, then our leaders would be held more accountable for their actions and things can only improve. >>If you don't help by being a humble servant of Srila Prabhupada's >Iskcon, then how can you be so bold to criticize. Can you please explain to me how valid factual criticism is not serving Prabhupada's Iskcon. And it takes more than a dash of humility and straw-in-the-teeth, as you will almost certainly get land-mined. >>You deserted, then try >to act like you are the hero. We desert Iskcon, factually when we desert the aims for which it was set up: "The Krsna consciousness movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent..." , When such independent thinking is discouraged, with guilt trips laid, that is not KC >Yes. I am a fool and have been a fool most of my life. Well we all have, but that doesn't mean we are meant to be. Learning to discriminate abusive pretentious people from actual vaisnavas is part of that process, as you are doing. >I will try to increase my chanting of the Holy Name and perhaps my anger at abusive pretentious people will diminish in time. I hope not. Read the quote from Bhatisiddhanta about how to be qualified for chanting (its at the end)... I hope someone within ISKCON will begin to truly defend the honor of the innocent, unprotected mahatmas and cows who have suffered so greatly for years and years lest they be forgotten. We all have this responsibility, it just isn't going to happen by magic. It is our duty... Words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur; the Enemy of Hypocrisy: --------------- A chanter of the kirtan of Hari is necessarily the uncompromising enemy of worldliness and hypocrisy. As a chanter of the kirtan of Hari, it is his constant function to dispel all misconceptions by the preaching of the truth in a most unambiguous form without the influence of person, place or time. That form has to be adopted which is least likely to be misunderstood. It is his bounden duty to oppose any person who tries to deceive and harm himself or other people by misrepresenting the truth, either due to malice or genuine misunderstanding. This will be possible if the chanter of kirtan is always prepared to submit to be trodden on by thoughtless people if any discomfort to himself will enable him to do good to his persecutors by chanting the truth in the most unambiguous manner. If he is unwilling to chant the kirtan under all circumstances due to consideration of self-respect or personal discomfort, then he is unfit to be a preacher of the Absolute Truth. Humility implies perfect submission to the truth and no sympathy for untruth. A person who entertains any sympathy for untruth is unfit to chant the kirtan of Hari. Any clinging to untruth is opposd to the principle of humility, born of absolute submission to the truth. Those who serve the truth all time, by means of all their faculties, and have no hankering for the trivialities of this world, are always necessarily free from malice born of competing worldliness, and are therefore fit to admonish those who are actively engaged in harming themselves and others by this method of opposing or misrepresenting the truth in order to attain the rewards of such a policy in the shape of a perpetuation of the state of misery and ignorance. The method which is employed by the servant of the good preceptor for preventing such misrepresentation of the truth, is a part and parcel of the truth itself. It may not always be pleasing to the diseased susceptibilities of the deluded mind, and may even be denounced by that as a malicious act, with which they are only too familiar, but the words of truth from the lips of a loyal and humble servant of Hari possess such beneficent power that all effort to suppress or obstruct them only serves to vindicate to impartial minds the necessity of complete submission to the Absolute Truth as the only cure of the disease of worldliness. Humility that is employed in the unambiguous service of the Truth is necessarily and qualitatively different from its perverted prototype, which is practiced by cunning people of this world for gaining their worldy ends. The professors of pseudo-humility have reason to be afraid of the preachings of the servants of Hari, (one whose duty it is to expose the enormous possiblity of mischief possessed by the many forms of so-called spirituality), when they are taken to task for serving the untruth. ================== ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2000 Report Share Posted February 28, 2000 Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON >>The fact that you are estranged from Iskcon means you are what. Why are >>you decrying Iskcon. What we should be concerned with is how to make Iskcon more habitable for mentally healthy, alert, responsible, people, ..rather we use the philosophy to riddle them with guilt about being estranged, or for leaving the movement, or having complaints based on factual observation about the movement, when all we have to do is ask them why?...and LISTEN. Maybe we can thus find the clue as to what we are doing wrong that is causing so many souls to leave Iskcon's shelter, and embittering them. Even as we can see with Janesvara, souls who are still concerned with the welfare and future of Iskcon. He's not actually estranged I would say, he's probably chosen to estrange himself from various avaisnava practices (like cow abuse that passes off as protection) that can go on in the name of KC, not KC itself. I'm that way myself, personally. Quite a healthy, positive alternative to blindly running with the herd speaking from practical experience. Oh, in his next letter Janesvara goes to prove my point- he is not estranged from KC: When I was a member of ISKCON and I saw even a hint of spousal abuse or women abuse I would interject immediately with physical force if necessary. Several times I went face to face with an abusive husband or brahmacari and made it painfully clear of the consequences they could suffer as the result of their abusive actions. I am not an apathetic person. I was temple commander of one of the biggest temples in the movement (Brooklyn) and I was a brahmacari at the time. Others were devious and abusive to the brahmacarinis but I still had to make sure they had their supplies of feminine hygiene articles, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, etc. for their asrama handing them out personally to the women with respect and gentlemanliness. It is not a hard thing to do. But the mind has to at least be out of the gutter of pretentious "advancement" and admit to low born qualities with humility and truth. This is what I saw the greatest lack of in the so-called leaders at the time. I presume the same disease is rampant in your ISKCON AP now. >> You are estranged from it. Yet you are an authority >on it. There is a difference between having an opinion and voicing it and being an authority. It is not only mouthpieces for the GBC who can be listened to, or even considered an authority. They may even disagree with the GBC- on the basis of loyalty to Prabhupada. If more people did this, then our leaders would be held more accountable for their actions and things can only improve. >>If you don't help by being a humble servant of Srila Prabhupada's >Iskcon, then how can you be so bold to criticize. Can you please explain to me how valid factual criticism is not serving Prabhupada's Iskcon. And it takes more than a dash of humility and straw-in-the-teeth, as you will almost certainly get land-mined. >>You deserted, then try >to act like you are the hero. We desert Iskcon, factually when we desert the aims for which it was set up: "The Krsna consciousness movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent..." , When such independent thinking is discouraged, with guilt trips laid, that is not KC >Yes. I am a fool and have been a fool most of my life. Well we all have, but that doesn't mean we are meant to be. Learning to discriminate abusive pretentious people from actual vaisnavas is part of that process, as you are doing. >I will try to increase my chanting of the Holy Name and perhaps my anger at abusive pretentious people will diminish in time. I hope not. Read the quote from Bhatisiddhanta about how to be qualified for chanting (its at the end)... I hope someone within ISKCON will begin to truly defend the honor of the innocent, unprotected mahatmas and cows who have suffered so greatly for years and years lest they be forgotten. We all have this responsibility, it just isn't going to happen by magic. It is our duty... Words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur; the Enemy of Hypocrisy: --------------- A chanter of the kirtan of Hari is necessarily the uncompromising enemy of worldliness and hypocrisy. As a chanter of the kirtan of Hari, it is his constant function to dispel all misconceptions by the preaching of the truth in a most unambiguous form without the influence of person, place or time. That form has to be adopted which is least likely to be misunderstood. It is his bounden duty to oppose any person who tries to deceive and harm himself or other people by misrepresenting the truth, either due to malice or genuine misunderstanding. This will be possible if the chanter of kirtan is always prepared to submit to be trodden on by thoughtless people if any discomfort to himself will enable him to do good to his persecutors by chanting the truth in the most unambiguous manner. If he is unwilling to chant the kirtan under all circumstances due to consideration of self-respect or personal discomfort, then he is unfit to be a preacher of the Absolute Truth. Humility implies perfect submission to the truth and no sympathy for untruth. A person who entertains any sympathy for untruth is unfit to chant the kirtan of Hari. Any clinging to untruth is opposd to the principle of humility, born of absolute submission to the truth. Those who serve the truth all time, by means of all their faculties, and have no hankering for the trivialities of this world, are always necessarily free from malice born of competing worldliness, and are therefore fit to admonish those who are actively engaged in harming themselves and others by this method of opposing or misrepresenting the truth in order to attain the rewards of such a policy in the shape of a perpetuation of the state of misery and ignorance. The method which is employed by the servant of the good preceptor for preventing such misrepresentation of the truth, is a part and parcel of the truth itself. It may not always be pleasing to the diseased susceptibilities of the deluded mind, and may even be denounced by that as a malicious act, with which they are only too familiar, but the words of truth from the lips of a loyal and humble servant of Hari possess such beneficent power that all effort to suppress or obstruct them only serves to vindicate to impartial minds the necessity of complete submission to the Absolute Truth as the only cure of the disease of worldliness. Humility that is employed in the unambiguous service of the Truth is necessarily and qualitatively different from its perverted prototype, which is practiced by cunning people of this world for gaining their worldy ends. The professors of pseudo-humility have reason to be afraid of the preachings of the servants of Hari, (one whose duty it is to expose the enormous possiblity of mischief possessed by the many forms of so-called spirituality), when they are taken to task for serving the untruth. ================== ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2000 Report Share Posted February 28, 2000 << when all we have to do is ask them why?...and LISTEN. Maybe we can thus find the clue as to what we are doing wrong that is causing so many souls to leave Iskcon's shelter, and embittering them. Yes, it sometimes feels like in a handicapt home or psych. hospital where people aren't taken very serious and noone really understands their needs or hears their desperate cries. But what can the patients do ? They are limited or handicapt in their ways of expression. But who is responsible ? The one who speaks 'unclear' or the one that doesn't (want to) hear/understand ? << Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 29, 2000 Report Share Posted February 29, 2000 I was wondering when you would climb on the bash wagon. It was to good to resist. Some bigot GBC mouthpeice like me defending ISKCON from a poor disheartended soul who has been kicked out by its ruthless leaders. Grow up. This kind of attack is not ever going to be ok. Your are talking about the sacred body of Srila Prabhupada. Of course you can address ISKCON GBC as any soul can. It is not an unnapproachable elitist group. It is made up of wonderful devotees. Yet you and your ilk have the crudity to address it as some gestapo group which needs to be insulted and demeaned in order to please Srila Prabhupada. We are not all idiots. Some times it is just too much to sit back and listen to such unfounded and downright blashphemy of Srila Prabhupada's body. Become more cognizant of simple respect for ISKCON and what it is. It is special, "ISKCON I AM". Oh I guess that means I am just a mouthpeice for someone. Please just be gentlemen and speak about the GBC body with respect and I am sure that everyone will accept your advice as vaisnava devotees of the Lord. I am probably as far removed from GBC as any soul in the three worlds, but the idea of beaing able to belittle everything with crasp rudity makes me become somewhat repugnant. anyway I think you understand. Just find someplace where people don't have love and respect, then it won't matter. I might be a disciple of those souls you are chooosing publicly lambast for your own personal reasons and saying Oh I am doing this for the good of ISKCON. Who are you trying to fool. We have minds too. We know how it works. You can pass that off maybe on some new bhaktis, but I have been here from the beginning and taking care of the cows by Prabhupada's mercy for many of those years and to hear you try to lay out some synopsis with your insulting motives is very ludicrous to me. I understand what difficulties we have and it is not GBC, but devotees who don't want to cooperate. Those who think their sense gratification is more important and basically the modes of nature. There are always victims, but in this philosophy we can overcome by love and trust. Not the opposite. YS Dvibhuja das Noelene Hawkins <niscala99 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:00 PM Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON >Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON > >>>The fact that you are estranged from Iskcon means you are what. Why are >>>you decrying Iskcon. > >What we should be concerned with is how to make Iskcon more habitable for >mentally healthy, alert, responsible, people, ..rather we use the philosophy >to riddle them with guilt about being estranged, or for leaving the >movement, or having complaints based on factual observation about the >movement, when all we have to do is ask them why?...and LISTEN. Maybe we can >thus find the clue as to what we are doing wrong that is causing so many >souls to leave Iskcon's shelter, and embittering them. Even as we can see >with Janesvara, souls who are still concerned with the welfare and future of >Iskcon. He's not actually estranged I would say, he's probably chosen to >estrange himself from various avaisnava practices (like cow abuse that >passes off as protection) that can go on in the name of KC, not KC itself. >I'm that way myself, personally. Quite a healthy, positive alternative to >blindly running with the herd speaking from practical experience. Oh, in his >next letter Janesvara goes to prove my point- he is not estranged from KC: > >When I was a member of ISKCON and I saw even a hint of spousal abuse or >women abuse I would interject immediately with physical force if necessary. >Several times I went face to face with an abusive husband or brahmacari and >made it painfully clear of the consequences they could suffer as the result >of their abusive actions. I am not an apathetic person. I was temple >commander of one of the biggest temples in the movement (Brooklyn) and I was >a brahmacari at the time. Others were devious and abusive to the >brahmacarinis but I still had to make sure they had their supplies of >feminine hygiene articles, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, etc. for their >asrama handing them out personally to the women with respect and >gentlemanliness. It is not a hard thing to do. But the mind has to at least >be out of the gutter of pretentious "advancement" and admit to low born >qualities with humility and truth. > >This is what I saw the greatest lack of in the so-called leaders at the >time. I presume the same disease is rampant in your ISKCON AP now. > >>> You are estranged from it. Yet you are an authority >>on it. > >There is a difference between having an opinion and voicing it and being an >authority. It is not only mouthpieces for the GBC who can be listened to, >or even considered an authority. They may even disagree with the GBC- on the >basis of loyalty to Prabhupada. If more people did this, then our leaders >would be held more accountable for their actions and things can only >improve. > > >>If you don't help by being a humble servant of Srila Prabhupada's >>Iskcon, then how can you be so bold to criticize. > >Can you please explain to me how valid factual criticism is not serving >Prabhupada's Iskcon. And it takes more than a dash of humility and >straw-in-the-teeth, as you will almost certainly get land-mined. > >>>You deserted, then try >>to act like you are the hero. > >We desert Iskcon, factually when we desert the aims for which it was set up: >"The Krsna consciousness movement is for training men to be independently >thoughtful and competent..." , > >When such independent thinking is discouraged, with guilt trips laid, that >is not KC > >>Yes. I am a fool and have been a fool most of my life. > >Well we all have, but that doesn't mean we are meant to be. Learning to >discriminate abusive pretentious people from actual vaisnavas is part of >that process, as you are doing. > >>I will try to >increase my chanting of the Holy Name and perhaps my anger at abusive >pretentious people will diminish in time. > >I hope not. Read the quote from Bhatisiddhanta about how to be qualified for >chanting (its at the end)... > >I hope someone within ISKCON will >begin to truly defend the honor of the innocent, unprotected mahatmas and >cows who have suffered so greatly for years and years lest they be >forgotten. > >We all have this responsibility, it just isn't going to happen by magic. It >is our duty... > >Words of > Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur; > the Enemy of Hypocrisy: >--------------- >A chanter of the kirtan of Hari is necessarily the uncompromising enemy of >worldliness and hypocrisy. As a chanter of the kirtan of Hari, it is his >constant function to dispel all misconceptions by the preaching of the >truth in a most unambiguous form without the influence of person, place or >time. That form has to be adopted which is least likely to be >misunderstood. > >It is his bounden duty to oppose any person who tries to deceive and harm >himself or other people by misrepresenting the truth, either due to malice >or genuine misunderstanding. This will be possible if the chanter of kirtan >is always prepared to submit to be trodden on by thoughtless people if any >discomfort to himself will enable him to do good to his persecutors by >chanting the truth in the most unambiguous manner. If he is unwilling to >chant the kirtan under all circumstances due to consideration of >self-respect or personal discomfort, then he is unfit to be a preacher of >the Absolute Truth. > >Humility implies perfect submission to the truth and no sympathy for >untruth. A person who entertains any sympathy for untruth is unfit to chant >the kirtan of Hari. Any clinging to untruth is opposd to the principle of >humility, born of absolute submission to the truth. Those who serve the >truth all time, by means of all their faculties, and have no hankering for >the trivialities of this world, are always necessarily free from malice >born of competing worldliness, and are therefore fit to admonish those who >are actively engaged in harming themselves and others by this method of >opposing or misrepresenting the truth in order to attain the rewards of >such a policy in the shape of a perpetuation of the state of misery and >ignorance. > >The method which is employed by the servant of the good preceptor for >preventing such misrepresentation of the truth, is a part and parcel of the >truth itself. It may not always be pleasing to the diseased susceptibilities >of the deluded mind, and may even be denounced by that as a malicious act, >with which they are only too familiar, but the words of truth from the lips >of a loyal and humble servant of Hari possess such beneficent power that all >effort to suppress or obstruct them only serves to vindicate to impartial >minds the necessity of complete submission to the >Absolute Truth as the only cure of the disease of worldliness. > >Humility that is employed in the unambiguous service of the Truth is >necessarily and qualitatively different from its perverted prototype, >which is practiced by cunning people of this world for gaining their worldy >ends. The professors of pseudo-humility have reason to be afraid of the >preachings of the servants of Hari, (one whose duty it is to expose the >enormous possiblity of mischief possessed by the many forms of so-called >spirituality), when they are taken to task for serving the untruth. >================== > > >____ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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