Re:Lifetime Lease

[Guest guest]

Comment by Rohita:

Therefore lifetime lease with conditions. Some conditions for extra

security: the lifetime lease could be extended indefinitely should one's

dependents show an interest and ability in self-sufficiency, and come up to

the requirements in other ways, like 4 regs, etc. This would be more

encouraging for the 2nd generation, and those that plan for their welfare

e.g. parents, and it would also encourage long-term planning like orchards.

Also I think that selling off ISKCON land is not allowed by the GBC and is

discouraged by the cow ministry as it means (or can mean) less land for the

cows.

 

Does anyone have such an agreement - if not, perhaps we could try to get

something together on this conference? I've been trying (well...) for a

long time to figure out how just such a document should be worded and what

to include in it...nistula dasa

[Guest guest]

On 14 Aug 1999, Nistula das wrote:

 

On 14 Aug 1999, Nistula das wrote:

 

> Comment by Rohita:

>Therefore lifetime lease with conditions. Some conditions for extra

security: the lifetime lease could be extended indefinitely should one's

dependents show an interest and ability in self-sufficiency, and come up to

the requirements in other ways, like 4 regs, etc. This would be more

encouraging for the 2nd generation, and those that plan for their welfare e.g.

parents, and it would also encourage long-term planning like orchards. Also I

think that selling off ISKCON land is not allowed by the GBC and is

discouraged by the cow ministry as it means (or can mean) less land for the

cows.

>

>

Nistula Prabhu;

Does anyone have such an agreement - if not, perhaps we could try to get

something together on this conference? I've been trying (well...) for a long

time to figure out how just such a document should be worded and what to

include in it...nistula dasa

 

Comment:

Actually the above comment is Niscala dd, I do not have lease but do have a

set of covenants that goes with the sale of any property. The intent of these

covenants is creating an environment suited to devotees. One problem with

these covenants is that we can finance the sale of the land, but cannot

finance any building of homes. Mortgage companies will not finance homes with

these covenants on the land.

 

As I mentioned before If you own the land your home is on, it is a small

parcel and in a planned village arrangement. There will be so many decreases

in expense.

I.e. Shared utilities, less land less initial cost, no need of easements etc.

 

Now if you are interested in agriculture this land you can take out on a

lifetime lease. I have some ideas on the wording for this in addition to the

already functioning covenants mentioned above.

 

The moderator of the cow conference does not appear to be present and as Samba

Prabhu suggested this thought train should be moved to Practical Varnasrama,

all of us becoming members of that conference?

___________________

 

To Niscala dd, ISKCON is not opposed in the sale of land, what it is opposed

to is the sale of the property, which the deities occupy for obvious reasons.

That land must never be sold. We sell land here in New Talavan, this land is

sold with covenants on and they are worded such that it would only be

acceptable to devotee. Many rural communities (suburbs etc.) here in America

sell with covenants most are related to beauty and cleanliness and are

straightforward.

 

The above covenants (on the land) referred to are passed on to descendants

with the approval of the board of directors of the landholding corporation.

Covenants can also be modified for each party just as long as the community

security is not threatened. We do not want a devotee selling his land to a

non-devotee, so the sale of land is prohibited by the temple possessing first

option if the land is to be sold, there is also a clause stating that property

sold must be a fair market value according to the prevailing value of

neighboring land at the time of sale (based on government assessor

evaluation).

 

The intent is to establish a temporary extended family until the actual

extended family becomes manifested. This is the purpose of settling in a

village setting. Ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Rohita Prabhu wrote:

> As I mentioned before If you own the land your home is on, it is a small

> parcel and in a planned village arrangement. There will be so many

> decreases in expense.

> I.e. Shared utilities, less land less initial cost, no need of easements

> etc.

>

> Now if you are interested in agriculture this land you can take out on a

> lifetime lease. I have some ideas on the wording for this in addition to

> the already functioning covenants mentioned above.

 

Earlier you mentioned about some lands being leased communaly for cow

grazing etc. In the UK this type of communaly used land is called 'Common

land'. It is a very ancient system, where certain lands near a village are

left in a wild state, and are used for the collection of herbs, firewood,

animal grazing etc. Sometimes village fairs may be held on the edge of this

land, there are many uses, and also there are civil codes in place to

protect such lands. I think such land, rather than being 'leased' should

actualy be held by the ksatria as common land for all to use. Of course we

may not have the luxury for this, it all depends on the amount of and kind

of landholdings we have. But such land is an invaluable resource for all,

and needs to be preserved by the ruling class.

>

> The moderator of the cow conference does not appear to be present and as

> Samba Prabhu suggested this thought train should be moved to Practical

> Varnasrama, all of us becoming members of that conference?

 

I have made you all members. I am also posting the trail of old texts in

this string to the new conference. You can either post to both, or just post

to the new one. Its probabaly better to avoid cross posting, as it can get

out of hand and be an annoyance.

 

> The above covenants (on the land) referred to are passed on to descendants

> with the approval of the board of directors of the landholding

> corporation. Covenants can also be modified for each party just as long as

> the community security is not threatened. We do not want a devotee selling

> his land to a non-devotee, so the sale of land is prohibited by the temple

> possessing first option if the land is to be sold, there is also a clause

> stating that property sold must be a fair market value according to the

> prevailing value of neighboring land at the time of sale (based on

> government assessor evaluation).

>

> The intent is to establish a temporary extended family until the actual

> extended family becomes manifested. This is the purpose of settling in a

> village setting.

 

This seems very sound. You mention here that we dont want the devotees

selling to non devotees. While I agree in general, I wonder if that is

something we should look at a little deeper. the concept 'non devotees' may

need some clarification.

 

Srila Prabhupada does say that we can even have grihamedhis living on our

farms. Sometimes we come across people who are extremely sincere in their

intent to live a natural life, and who are very talented, hard working, etc,

but who are also sense enjoyers, or can we say grihamedhis. If such people

are open to new ideas, and attracted to the concepts of Krsna Consciousness,

there may be a possibility that they can rise above their sinful activities.

Such people may have much to offer our devotees in terms of actual life

skills, and in turn by helping our communities in this way, they may be

purified and inspired to take to spiritual life, but very gradualy. In my

years as a devotee, I have met many people like this. Actualy many of our

devotees even fit into this mould, secretly engaging in sinful activity,

while keeping an putward veneer of respectability.

 

This is a touchy area. Maybe we should have periferal areas on the farms for

people who wish to be a part, who have something positive to offer, but who

are still possessed of the grihamedhi 'spirit'. Srila Prabhupada was indeed

very merciful, the fact that he has suggested this, I think makes it

imperative for us to try to understand how it can be accomodated. Maybe this

is a way that our farms can actualy develop as varnasrama communitites. As

it is it is often almost impossible to get our devotees to do anything even

remotely 'austere'. But there are many people 'out there' who would love to

get 'back to the land'. We can offer a very positive future for such people.

But of course we have to manage them very well. Maybe this is not for now,

but worth a thought.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

Samba

Earlier you mentioned about some lands being leased communaly for cow grazing

etc. In the UK this type of communaly used land is called 'Common land'. It is

a very ancient system, where certain lands near a village are left in a wild

state, and are used for the collection of herbs, firewood, animal grazing etc.

Sometimes village fairs may be held on the edge of this land, there are many

uses, and also there are civil codes in place to protect such lands. I think

such land, rather than being 'leased' should actualy be held by the ksatria as

common land for all to use. Of course we may not have the luxury for this, it

all depends on the amount of and kind of landholdings we have. But such land

is an invaluable resource for all, and needs to be preserved by the ruling

class.

Comment:

Yes if the ksatriya has the time to manage the care of this land. From

experience if it is free people will abuse this land, now if they have to

maintain the fields etc. they will do nicely and some percentage of the

produce will give to the ksatriya and also to the brahmana. If the ksatriya

can engage someone to guard it and maintain it properly then I would agree to

the idea of 'Commons', otherwise no.

> The above covenants (on the land) referred to are passed on to descendants

with the approval of the board of directors of the landholding

corporation. Covenants can also be modified for each party just as long as

the community security is not threatened. We do not want a devotee selling

his land to a non-devotee, so the sale of land is prohibited by the temple

possessing first option if the land is to be sold, there is also a clause

stating that property sold must be a fair market value according to the

prevailing value of neighboring land at the time of sale (based on

government assessor evaluation). The intent is to establish a temporary

extended family until the actual extended family becomes manifested. This is

the purpose of settling in a

village setting.

This seems very sound. You mention here that we dont want the devotees selling

to non devotees. While I agree in general, I wonder if that is something we

should look at a little deeper. the concept 'non devotees' may need some

clarification.

Comment:

Just like I mentioned this devotee he could not follow all the principles, he

still works with the devotees, comes to the feasts etc. but he lives away and

he has no animosity to the temple because he made this discussion out of his

own personal feeling of guilt. No one looks down on him, because many are also

inclined to not be so strict. They are all devotees, some have done a great

deal of service, but at this time and place they are not so strict. They all

have something to contribute and what ever they are willing to do this should

be encouraged not just push them away. Non-devotee means they have some

animosity toward the deity of the Lord. All others are devotees. Some do not

know it (innocent) and others do, they are all attracted to some aspect of the

Lord, and they just have some attachment to sense pleasure also.

Samba

Srila Prabhupada does say that we can even have grihamedhis living on our

farms. Sometimes we come across people who are extremely sincere in their

intent to live a natural life, and who are very talented, hard working, etc,

but who are also sense enjoyers, or can we say grihamedhis. If such people are

open to new ideas, and attracted to the concepts of Krsna Consciousness, there

may be a possibility that they can rise above their sinful activities. Such

people may have much to offer our devotees in terms of actual life skills, and

in turn by helping our communities in this way, they may be purified and

inspired to take to spiritual life, but very gradualy. In my years as a

devotee, I have met many people like this. Actualy many of our devotees even

fit into this mould, secretly engaging in sinful activity, while keeping an

putward veneer of respectability.

Comment:

The purpose of Varnasrama is gradually raise one consciousness, but to do this

they must be able to associate with those that are stricter. So let them take

prasadam, appreciate the deity and others service and when they are inclined

they can render service or give something.

Samba

This is a touchy area. Maybe we should have periferal areas on the farms for

people who wish to be a part, who have something positive to offer, but who

are still possessed of the grihamedhi 'spirit'. Srila Prabhupada was indeed

very merciful, the fact that he has suggested this, I think makes it

imperative for us to try to understand how it can be accomodated. Maybe this

is a way that our farms can actualy develop as varnasrama communitites. As it

is it is often almost impossible to get our devotees to do anything even

remotely 'austere'. But there are many people 'out there' who would love to

get 'back to the land'. We can offer a very positive future for such people.

But of course we have to manage them very well. Maybe this is not for now, but

worth a thought.

Comment:

There are three basic levels of devotee;

1. Fixed up living at the temple giving the majority of their time serving

at

the temple in one capacity or another. Usually brahmana grhastras, widows, and

brahmacari or sannyasi.

2. Grhastras, living on own land but following principles. They live near

the

temple and come if not on a daily basis then at least once a week. They belong

generally to the upper varnas.

3. Grhamedhi, lives away from temple (sometimes at a great distance) and

comes irregularly. They are not able to follow strictly at this time. They are

predominately of the Sudra Varna or lower.

 

These are not strict categories and sometimes you can find others from the a

different category in amongst, this changes after a time as the individuals

feel they do not fit in and move to where they feel comfortable. People may

even shift from one group to another. Hopefully, people will develop an

affinity for the deity and will gradually turn their mind toward him more

often so that at the time of death they may go back to godhead.

 

As to how this is set up, there is no need Krsna will prompt the living entity

and by their behavior one will be able to understand their position. In the

older temples in the west this already exists the 'enlightened' temple

management see this and deals with the individuals accordingly.

 

Ys, Rohita dasa