Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 - Martin <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net> Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:22 AM Re: ATTENTION > Now we get to the heart of the matter. You are aware of the things being > said in regard to the criticism of our devoted leaders. I wrote sometime > ago and complained about the organizers of this confernce not stepping > forward and saying something about this type of spiritual sickness. I feel it is a spiritual sickness not to be primarily concerned for the numerous cows who have died, the numerous children who are now dysfunctional due to abuse in our school system, the numerous women whose self esteem has been destroyed in a system controlled by our "devoted" leaders. If this is not our primary concern then we are truely impersonalists which is a definite "spiritual sickness." It doesn't take much intelligence to see that something is wrong and desperately needs to be corrected. What about all those "devoted" women, children and cows who gave how many years of their life to this movement and only have ruined lives or no life in return ? Or is this Krsna consciousness movement just for a few elite members and the rest can rot? I think not. You may > not appreciate what effort I have made for you in this regard, but beleive > me it is better to have been wrong about stopping what was becoming more and > more of a problem. I don't mind if you remove me or not. Quite honestly. > I really don't. It is nothing personal with your or your good husband. I > will probably drop off soon anyway as I don't always have time to be this > involved Forgive me for my lack of appreciation. What was becoming more and more a problem is your attitude in dealing with the other devotees on this conference. The ones you accuse of being offenders are attempting to go forward in a humble positive manner. Your impersonal " holier than thou" attitude persists after I have asked for constructive progress. >I do advise you however that if you are in charge of this > conference and it becomes full of those who want to decry ISKCON, then you > will of course be the one who is partially responsible if you don't at least > speak up. You advise me? Is this suppose to intimidate me? " If "I am in charge? Make me feel guilty that I am not a "devoted" follower of the "devoted leaders?" Something is going to happen to me if I am not? Seems that after 30 years of being an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada I have experienced this approach many times before. I am very tired of it. I have seen too much sufferring for too long, 30years of it. And still there are persons like yourself who say that our "devoted" leaders can not be questioned. I know that I will suffer, and that will be for all the times I did not question the leadership when I saw children sufferring and I knew in my guts that something was wrong but I did not want to be offensive to our "devoted" leaders by questioning or trying to put a stop to it. I was so afraid of being accused of being offensive, not humble, and not being liked by our "devoted" leaders. Who knows, maybe if I had spoken up there might have been a positive difference in some lives today. I say truth shall prevail. The facts should be presented, the investigation begun, the results reported. There is just too much pain amongst too many devotees to just shut them up with platitudes and threats. Then if someone is not guilty there is proof of innocence. That is what the Standards, the GBC report forms are all about. Supplying accountability. Right now there is no accountability, one is accused of being an offender if they question, if they express their anquish over the deaths and abuses. <SO give me liberty or give me death.> Your self-imposed matrydom is yours alone. I have removed you from the conference. Your servant, Chayadevi > > ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related > issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:30 AM > ATTENTION > > > >Dear Dvibhuja Prabhu, > > > >PAMHO. AGTSP. > > > >Having followed your texts and the other contributors on this cow > conference > >for several months now, it seems to me, that you are the most offensive in > >the way you have dealt with the devotees. You talk about how they shouldn't > >mention the short comings of the Leaders that they see and then you blast > >them with offensive language, much more offensive than the language they > are > >using. After I have placed a letter for peace on this conference you yet > >have to come back continuing the same drift of conversation that I asked to > >be stopped. While others are volunteering their services. This doesn't look > >to good as to your intentions. > > > > > >Yes, there are many wonderful devotees who have given their lives in > serving > >Guru and Gouranga both in the leadership and grass roots rank and file. > >Srila Prabhupada has given us different guidelines to follow in our > >spiritual activities one of which is "purity is the force". That purity > >will speak for itself in the fruits of the tree being either sweet or sour. > >There is both sweet and sour fruit on the ISKCON tree. What the devotees > are > >saying is that they don't want to eat the sour fruit anymore. They have > >already seen what branches are producing sour furit. > > > >As organizer of this cow conference I ask one more time that you stop your > >continuing offensive chastisement of the other devotees on this conference. > >If you do not like what they say then, as you have threatened, remove > >yourself from the conference. If you remain on the conference and continue > >in the manner you have chosen to use, then I will remove you from the > >conference. This is the last warning. > > > >In all these years (since 1993) I have never removed anyone. Mostly, if > >there was some heavy criticisms it was directed at Balabhadra and myself. > It > >is a different story when one sees other devotees who are expressing their > >heartfelt opinions and observations in a loyal manner towards Srila > >Prabhupada be cut down as offenders. > > > >Either you cooperate, or remove yourself, or be removed. > > > >Your servant, > >Chayadevi > >Organizer of cow conference since 1993 > > > >---- Original Message ----- > >Martin <> > >Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Varnasrama > >development <Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > >Wednesday, March 01, 2000 2:17 PM > >Re: A History of Blaming Anyone But Me > > > > > >> Offenses are such that even we try to do some good the whole thing can be > >> spoiled by offending the Vaisnavas. > >> I don't doubt that all of the devotees that are embroiled in this > >mometary > >> contreversy mean to try and help the cows. However, it would not be > >> prudent to not understand that everything depends on the mercy of Guru > and > >> Gouranga as I am sure you are aware. If we think that we can simply say > >> things because it is a cow conference and that there are not reactions we > >> are wrong. I hope you understand that it is only fair that when someone > >> becomes morose or bitter about ISKCON they are still liable for what they > >> say. It is not justification to blast those devotees who have dedicated > >> their lives to this Sankirtan movement. So it pains me. I am not very > >> learned, but I understand that this can destroy our movement. It doesn't > >> matter how you paint it. This is what can destroy our movement. > >> Criticism of course can always be there. However venting,and foolishly > >> portraying our revered devotees who we love and beg for their > association, > >> as bad guys is not going to work. > >> You and I both know that our service is not hendered by anything other > >> than our own lack of sincerity. We may cry victim, foul etc. But on the > >> ultimate plane we know it is just our lack of Krishna consciousness. > >> Venting on the devotees who have taken up the management tasks will be > >> counterproductive on all levels. > >> I say let us return to the ways of glorifying our Godbrothers and those > >> Vaisnavas who are giving their lives to this Sankirtana movement. In > this > >> way everyone will want to help and then of course Krishna will make nice > >> facility. In this way we can't go wrong, Krishna will always protect us. > >> It works. It is not material. > >> > >> YS > >> Dvibhuja das > >> > >> Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius) <Samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > >> Martin <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; concep (AT) prodigy (DOT) net.mx > >> <concep (AT) prodigy (DOT) net.mx>; Cow (Protection and related issues) > >> <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Varnasrama development > <Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > >> Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:40 AM > >> Re: A History of Blaming Anyone But Me > >> > >> > >> >> Why don't we just make up any group > >> >> and blame them. The leaders are leaders because Krishna has put them > >in > >> >> this position and they have accepted. Why? It must be for the money > >or > >> >> power. Yea thats it, these corupt GBCS are all getting rich and > >planning > >> >> to buy a huge farm in Hawaii. Lets all get together and gettVNN to > >put > >> >> out a special on this new conspiracy. You don't need any facts. Lets > >> >> just play on igonorance and envy. God knows there is plenty of that > >> >> around. > >> >> > >> >> YS > >> >> > > > >> >Krsna lets all sorts of people get in big positions, Sai Baba, Maharishi > >> >Mahesh Yogi, some of them even more powerful and wealthy than our > >> >impoverished movement (forced to sell off its prime farms, and defending > >> >itself in courts of law). We had our own leaders who used their power in > >> >unjust ways and were exposed eventualy, Jayatirtha, Kirtananda, etc. > >> > > >> >Is it not bad enough that cows under ISKCON's jurisdiction have DIED in > >> >abusive situations? This terrible occurence resulting in a spontaneous > >> group > >> >of concerned 'lay' devotees, along with the appropriate ministries > >> >co-operating to formulate a set of laws to safeguard the cows, only to > >find > >> >that these LAWS are also not followed by the very leaders that ratified > >> >them? > >> > > >> >What does this say? > >> > > >> >There is something very wrong going on in Govindas movement. > >> > > >> >The devotees that you seem to take exception to are all (at least as far > >as > >> >I can tell) concerned individuals, who appear to CARE, and who are > >> >enthusiastic to do something for the cows and ISKCON. Yet all you seem > to > >> do > >> >is to disparage them, to say the least. > >> > > >> >To say that there is nothing wrong within the ISKCON framework, and that > >> >there is nothing wrong with any of the leaders in ISKCON (given a > history > >> >abundant with abusive leaders), would seem to be simply blind. Are we > >meant > >> >to be blind followers? To blaspheme Srila Prabhupadas body would indeed > >be > >> >suicidal, but to point out a dangerous malaise that threatens that body > >is > >> >surely needed? Not that all 'leaders' are to be held to account, but to > >> deny > >> >that there is any wrongdoing is really to be blind. > >> > > >> >The motivation of these devotees (it seems to me) is to return to the > >> values > >> >Srila Prabhupada has taught us, and to take to task those who may claim > >to > >> >be leaders, but who are not offering us the kind of selfless, and > >> >enlightened leadership that Srila Prabhupada gave. > >> > > >> >That is my impression and I am amazed that you seem to find them guilty > >of > >> >the worst possible misdemeanor. It would be one thing if they were > trying > >> to > >> >minimise Srila Prabhupada as some kind of conditioned soul, as is going > >on > >> >in some other conferences. But these devotees appear to be hankering for > >> the > >> >kind of consistency, honesty, and integrity, that only a soul such as > >Srila > >> >Prabhupada can give, and not those who may attempt to imitate him. > >> > > >> >They want to take up Srila Prabhupadas instructions (a mandate that all > >his > >> >followers have inherited) to wrack their brains to make this movement a > >> >grand success. How can any follower of Srila Prabhupada deny this right > >to > >> >any other? > >> > > >> >Surely to meditate on his instructions, and to discuss them with others > >is > >> >the prerogative of all his followers. > >> > > >> >Your servant > >> >Samba das > >> > >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Now we get to the heart of the matter. You are aware of the things being said in regard to the criticism of our devoted leaders. I wrote sometime ago and complained about the organizers of this confernce not stepping forward and saying something about this type of spiritual sickness. You may not appreciate what effort I have made for you in this regard, but beleive me it is better to have been wrong about stopping what was becoming more and more of a problem. I don't mind if you remove me or not. Quite honestly. I really don't. It is nothing personal with your or your good husband. I will probably drop off soon anyway as I don't always have time to be this involved. I do advise you however that if you are in charge of this conference and it becomes full of those who want to decry ISKCON, then you will of course be the one who is partially responsible if you don't at least speak up. SO give me liberty or give me death. YS Dvibhuja das ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:30 AM ATTENTION >Dear Dvibhuja Prabhu, > >PAMHO. AGTSP. > >Having followed your texts and the other contributors on this cow conference >for several months now, it seems to me, that you are the most offensive in >the way you have dealt with the devotees. You talk about how they shouldn't >mention the short comings of the Leaders that they see and then you blast >them with offensive language, much more offensive than the language they are >using. After I have placed a letter for peace on this conference you yet >have to come back continuing the same drift of conversation that I asked to >be stopped. While others are volunteering their services. This doesn't look >to good as to your intentions. > > >Yes, there are many wonderful devotees who have given their lives in serving >Guru and Gouranga both in the leadership and grass roots rank and file. >Srila Prabhupada has given us different guidelines to follow in our >spiritual activities one of which is "purity is the force". That purity >will speak for itself in the fruits of the tree being either sweet or sour. >There is both sweet and sour fruit on the ISKCON tree. What the devotees are >saying is that they don't want to eat the sour fruit anymore. They have >already seen what branches are producing sour furit. > >As organizer of this cow conference I ask one more time that you stop your >continuing offensive chastisement of the other devotees on this conference. >If you do not like what they say then, as you have threatened, remove >yourself from the conference. If you remain on the conference and continue >in the manner you have chosen to use, then I will remove you from the >conference. This is the last warning. > >In all these years (since 1993) I have never removed anyone. Mostly, if >there was some heavy criticisms it was directed at Balabhadra and myself. It >is a different story when one sees other devotees who are expressing their >heartfelt opinions and observations in a loyal manner towards Srila >Prabhupada be cut down as offenders. > >Either you cooperate, or remove yourself, or be removed. > >Your servant, >Chayadevi >Organizer of cow conference since 1993 > >---- Original Message ----- >Martin <> >Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Varnasrama >development <Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net> >Wednesday, March 01, 2000 2:17 PM >Re: A History of Blaming Anyone But Me > > >> Offenses are such that even we try to do some good the whole thing can be >> spoiled by offending the Vaisnavas. >> I don't doubt that all of the devotees that are embroiled in this >mometary >> contreversy mean to try and help the cows. However, it would not be >> prudent to not understand that everything depends on the mercy of Guru and >> Gouranga as I am sure you are aware. If we think that we can simply say >> things because it is a cow conference and that there are not reactions we >> are wrong. I hope you understand that it is only fair that when someone >> becomes morose or bitter about ISKCON they are still liable for what they >> say. It is not justification to blast those devotees who have dedicated >> their lives to this Sankirtan movement. So it pains me. I am not very >> learned, but I understand that this can destroy our movement. It doesn't >> matter how you paint it. This is what can destroy our movement. >> Criticism of course can always be there. However venting,and foolishly >> portraying our revered devotees who we love and beg for their association, >> as bad guys is not going to work. >> You and I both know that our service is not hendered by anything other >> than our own lack of sincerity. We may cry victim, foul etc. But on the >> ultimate plane we know it is just our lack of Krishna consciousness. >> Venting on the devotees who have taken up the management tasks will be >> counterproductive on all levels. >> I say let us return to the ways of glorifying our Godbrothers and those >> Vaisnavas who are giving their lives to this Sankirtana movement. In this >> way everyone will want to help and then of course Krishna will make nice >> facility. In this way we can't go wrong, Krishna will always protect us. >> It works. It is not material. >> >> YS >> Dvibhuja das >> >> Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius) <Samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net> >> Martin <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; concep (AT) prodigy (DOT) net.mx >> <concep (AT) prodigy (DOT) net.mx>; Cow (Protection and related issues) >> <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) pamho (DOT) net> >> Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:40 AM >> Re: A History of Blaming Anyone But Me >> >> >> >> Why don't we just make up any group >> >> and blame them. The leaders are leaders because Krishna has put them >in >> >> this position and they have accepted. Why? It must be for the money >or >> >> power. Yea thats it, these corupt GBCS are all getting rich and >planning >> >> to buy a huge farm in Hawaii. Lets all get together and gettVNN to >put >> >> out a special on this new conspiracy. You don't need any facts. Lets >> >> just play on igonorance and envy. God knows there is plenty of that >> >> around. >> >> >> >> YS >> >> > > >> >Krsna lets all sorts of people get in big positions, Sai Baba, Maharishi >> >Mahesh Yogi, some of them even more powerful and wealthy than our >> >impoverished movement (forced to sell off its prime farms, and defending >> >itself in courts of law). We had our own leaders who used their power in >> >unjust ways and were exposed eventualy, Jayatirtha, Kirtananda, etc. >> > >> >Is it not bad enough that cows under ISKCON's jurisdiction have DIED in >> >abusive situations? This terrible occurence resulting in a spontaneous >> group >> >of concerned 'lay' devotees, along with the appropriate ministries >> >co-operating to formulate a set of laws to safeguard the cows, only to >find >> >that these LAWS are also not followed by the very leaders that ratified >> >them? >> > >> >What does this say? >> > >> >There is something very wrong going on in Govindas movement. >> > >> >The devotees that you seem to take exception to are all (at least as far >as >> >I can tell) concerned individuals, who appear to CARE, and who are >> >enthusiastic to do something for the cows and ISKCON. Yet all you seem to >> do >> >is to disparage them, to say the least. >> > >> >To say that there is nothing wrong within the ISKCON framework, and that >> >there is nothing wrong with any of the leaders in ISKCON (given a history >> >abundant with abusive leaders), would seem to be simply blind. Are we >meant >> >to be blind followers? To blaspheme Srila Prabhupadas body would indeed >be >> >suicidal, but to point out a dangerous malaise that threatens that body >is >> >surely needed? Not that all 'leaders' are to be held to account, but to >> deny >> >that there is any wrongdoing is really to be blind. >> > >> >The motivation of these devotees (it seems to me) is to return to the >> values >> >Srila Prabhupada has taught us, and to take to task those who may claim >to >> >be leaders, but who are not offering us the kind of selfless, and >> >enlightened leadership that Srila Prabhupada gave. >> > >> >That is my impression and I am amazed that you seem to find them guilty >of >> >the worst possible misdemeanor. It would be one thing if they were trying >> to >> >minimise Srila Prabhupada as some kind of conditioned soul, as is going >on >> >in some other conferences. But these devotees appear to be hankering for >> the >> >kind of consistency, honesty, and integrity, that only a soul such as >Srila >> >Prabhupada can give, and not those who may attempt to imitate him. >> > >> >They want to take up Srila Prabhupadas instructions (a mandate that all >his >> >followers have inherited) to wrack their brains to make this movement a >> >grand success. How can any follower of Srila Prabhupada deny this right >to >> >any other? >> > >> >Surely to meditate on his instructions, and to discuss them with others >is >> >the prerogative of all his followers. >> > >> >Your servant >> >Samba das >> >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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