Guest guest Posted April 20, 2002 Report Share Posted April 20, 2002 <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> wrote: >We are having a table > during this time at the > temple and we had the idea to write a pamphlet, > flyer on the subject of > buying milk from the market is supporting the > slaughter industry and what > positive actions can be taken. > Would you > care to write something for it? >From the Vegan Society website: "Once the cow has given birth, her calf is usually removed after a few hours. In nature calves would normally suckle for 6-12 months...As it is the birth of the calf that causes milk production, it is critical for the farmer that the cow becomes pregnant again during lactation and produces the next calf one year after the previous one." The calves are then killed. The Iskcon farming formula produces almost no milk. Instead, we buy mass quantities of milk products from the baby cow killing industry. Why are devotees told that its wrong to buy bread baked by "karmis", when we get all of our milk by killing baby cows? Maybe we should change our rules to make cow killing by drinking milk against the regs and get rid of the rule that says we can only have sex 4 or 5 times in our life. As far as I can tell, the official ISKCON farming/cow/milk formula just doesn't add up. It is as out of touch with reality as the idea that the moon is farther from the earth than the sun is. We should begin by correcting this error. Yes, we are all fools. Prabhupada would be furious to find out that we are disobeying his cow protection rules and are killing baby cows and suctioning off their milk for ourselves. Have we no shame? Have we no sense of decency, at long last? Can we finally stop lying to ourselves? Can we finally stop this cover-up? We must all be atheists to think that these crimes will go unpunished. How much worse will we make this for ourselves? Oh! The shame of it all! The shame! A crime so against natural order and the decency of life, so shameless a violation of individual boundaries and affront to personal and family privacy it would shock Dracula. To kill her baby and then keep pumping away at her breast, not even giving her a chance to mourn. Totally unacceptable. The most grievous form of parasitism found in the entire animal kingdom. Now let's go over the list of reforms I have been working on: Brahmins to become full vegetarians. Milk produced for deities by protected cows with protected calves only. Milk prasad given to guests and children first. Milk produced in this honest and humane way to be given a prominent role in Temple ceremonies and used as a preaching tool. No more stealing, killing and machine driven suction gang rape of a grieving mothers udders to get milk. Temporarily looking to the original vedic system, by being more understanding of certain castes eating meat, including adult cow/bull meat, with a completely vegetarian human society as the end goal. Our Brahmins to put the weight of their preaching to stopping the killing of baby cows and the machine driven suction gang rape of their grieving mothers udders to get milk. This will help prevent our Brahmins from being corrupted by the milk/rape/veal industry. Brahmins will also make sure that as more people become vegetarian, the farm animals that they used to eat are not becoming extinct. Brahmins to provide praise and emotional support to companies trying to come up with an honest, humane solution to our milk crisis. Brahmins will support companies that are trying to genetically engineer a cow that can produce milk without the machine driven suction gang rape of a grieving mothers udders after having all of it's children murdered every year. Thank you. Your delinquent servant, darwin Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Please visit the "Baby Cows Robbed and Murdered" topic I Just started on Istagosthi.org: http://istagosthi.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000170 It is about the evil milk farming industry and ISKCON's inability and unwillingness to change their false milk production formula so that we can begin to address the issue. Anyone can post replies, you don't need to register. Istagosthi.org is a totally free and open forum with a very hip moderator and absolutely no censorship. Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote: > Dear Madhava Gosh Prabhu and Prabhus, > > PAMHO. AGTSP. > > The GBC meetings are only one day with three days after being a festival. > Malati says there is a lot to jam in one day. So it does not look like we > will even get to speak and if we do there will be very little time and > probably not much attention. We are having a table during this time at the > temple and we had the idea to write a pamphlet, flyer on the subject of > buying milk from the market is supporting the slaughter industry and what > positive actions can be taken. Like an appeal to the devotees. This is probably too complex to institute, but what I'd like to see is this: Set up a special Cow Protection Grant Fund 1. Fifty percent of that would go to ISCOWP to maintain current cows and cover administrative costs. 2. Fifty percent would go into a scholarship/grant fund to provide training and land to young devotee farmers. 3. Temples or individual devotees could then make a commitment to donate so much per month. In addition, there could be fund raising at special events. 4. The the grant fund should be set up so there would be some type of outside oversight as far as accounting is concerned. ISCOWP already has an excellent record for accountability. Accountability is becoming increasingly important in the public's mind these days, so they should be confident that if large sums are given, an outside group or auditor will be auditing the funds. The central idea would be: Many of us drink milk because Srila Prabhupada said it is important to build fine brain tissue for spiritual understanding. At the same time, we want to somehow create an alternative to the current slaughter house/dairy system. Therefore we want to pay a "tax" on our milk consumption, so that we can use that money to set up small-scale Krsna conscious farms to help build up cow protection and create an alternative to the present system. In this way the "tax" or donation that one makes would actually be contributing to setting up an alternative to the present dairy system. At present, we really do not have a means to help give young farmers training, equipment and land -- thus no substantial progress is made towards setting up an alternative. This is a tricky thing because it's important that such a program bring in substantially more than ISCOWP is bringing in right now. This program should not be something that will in effect decrease the funds that ISCOWP currently brings in. ISCOWP has show itself to be a cornerstone for the international devotee cow protection movement. So nothing should be set up to reduce what they are getting to operate. On the other hand, we really do need a way that young devotees who are not financially gifted can devote their brains and youthful energy to setting up small-scale self-sufficient farms. We need a fund and a way to grant them money for training and land. I think that if devotees could actually see -- well something is going on here, we're not just treading water trying to survive, we're actually expanding and providing a meaningful place for young people in our society -- then they will be more inspired to give. I feel this will be an important way to spread not only cow protection -- but actually to spread Krsna consciousness in the most attractive way. These young devotee farm families will be very fired up preachers. Anyway, that's my idea. As I say, it's probably way to complicated to set up, but I just can't see how we'll get farmers on the land if we don't set up some farming grant system. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi > Would you > care to write something for it. I'd say as brief and to the point as > possible without sacrificing the knowledge needed to understand the point. > There can be photos, drawings etc. This will reach a lot of people. Maybe we > could put it also on Chakra. If anyone else would like to contribute some > writing please do so. Credit given to writers. > > Right now I am overloaded with paper work, so help is needed. > > Your servant, > Chayadevi > - > Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> > Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > Sunday, April 14, 2002 12:09 PM > Re: report 2 > > > > > > > > > > Once again I am trying to catch up on everything. What Madhava Gosh is > > > saying is correct. Just as the Indian temples/goshallas had gotten use > to > > > the idea that giving away their animals was okay (now that has been > > > outlawed) the western temples have gotten use to the idea that to > > > continuously buy Karmi milk is okay. So, my idea is that there is going > to > > > be a North American GBC meeting this May here at New Vrndavana and that > > this > > > Ministry will make a presentation about this. Balabhadra is into it. I > > don't > > > know that we can expect something to happen but it will raise the > > awareness > > > that this is a serious situation that has been rationalised for years > > > > Yes with all the bankruptcy stuff going on unlikely to see any serious > > financial committement this go around. > > -- Noma Petroff Academic Department Coordinator BOWDOIN COLLEGE Department of Theater & Dance 9100 College Station Brunswick ME 04011-8491 Phone: (207) 725-3663 FAX: (207) 725-3372 http://academic.bowdoin.edu/theaterdance/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Hare Krsna dasi you are totally right. I think this is a great idea and we should try to set some thing up. It will be complicated but you guys did do the standards and that was really complicated. One thing that just popped into my head that along with paying a "tax" ISKCON and anyone can give land along with money. That could be one way to get a jump start on getting people onto the land. The cow protection grant fund would give the land as a grant but if the person(s) does not fulfill the requirements then it could revert back to the cow protection grant fund. Maybe the intial grant could be for 5 years and if they have not fulfill the conditions of the grant by the end of 5 years it would go back to the grant fund but if they did it would automatically be renew for 5 or maybe 10 years. These are just some quick ideas. Lakshmi On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:35 -0400 "Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> writes: > "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote: > > > Dear Madhava Gosh Prabhu and Prabhus, > > > > PAMHO. AGTSP. > > > > The GBC meetings are only one day with three days after being a > festival. > > Malati says there is a lot to jam in one day. So it does not look > like we > > will even get to speak and if we do there will be very little time > and > > probably not much attention. We are having a table during this > time at the > > temple and we had the idea to write a pamphlet, flyer on the > subject of > > buying milk from the market is supporting the slaughter industry > and what > > positive actions can be taken. Like an appeal to the devotees. > > This is probably too complex to institute, but what I'd like to see > is this: > > Set up a special Cow Protection Grant Fund > > 1. Fifty percent of that would go to ISCOWP to maintain current > cows and cover > administrative costs. > > 2. Fifty percent would go into a scholarship/grant fund to provide > training > and > land to young devotee farmers. > > 3. Temples or individual devotees could then make a commitment to > donate so > much per month. In addition, there could be fund raising at special > events. > > 4. The the grant fund should be set up so there would be some type > of outside > oversight as far as accounting is concerned. ISCOWP already has an > excellent > record for accountability. Accountability is becoming increasingly > important > in > the public's mind these days, so they should be confident that if > large sums > are > given, an outside group or auditor will be auditing the funds. > > The central idea would be: Many of us drink milk because Srila > Prabhupada said > it is important to build fine brain tissue for spiritual > understanding. At the > same time, we want to somehow create an alternative to the current > slaughter > house/dairy system. Therefore we want to pay a "tax" on our milk > consumption, > so that we can use that money to set up small-scale Krsna conscious > farms to > help build up cow protection and create an alternative to the > present system. > > In this way the "tax" or donation that one makes would actually be > contributing > to setting up an alternative to the present dairy system. At > present, we > really > do not have a means to help give young farmers training, equipment > and land -- > thus no substantial progress is made towards setting up an > alternative. > > This is a tricky thing because it's important that such a program > bring in > substantially more than ISCOWP is bringing in right now. This > program should > not be something that will in effect decrease the funds that ISCOWP > currently > brings in. ISCOWP has show itself to be a cornerstone for the > international > devotee cow protection movement. So nothing should be set up to > reduce what > they are getting to operate. > > On the other hand, we really do need a way that young devotees who > are not > financially gifted can devote their brains and youthful energy to > setting up > small-scale self-sufficient farms. We need a fund and a way to > grant them > money > for training and land. I think that if devotees could actually see > -- well > something is going on here, we're not just treading water trying to > survive, > we're actually expanding and providing a meaningful place for young > people in > our society -- then they will be more inspired to give. I feel this > will be an > important way to spread not only cow protection -- but actually to > spread Krsna > consciousness in the most attractive way. These young devotee farm > families > will be very fired up preachers. > > Anyway, that's my idea. As I say, it's probably way to complicated > to set up, > but I just can't see how we'll get farmers on the land if we don't > set up some > farming grant system. > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi > ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 - Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Cc: Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:35 PM Re: GBC Meeting and Milk Issue > > This is probably too complex to institute, but what I'd like to see is this: > > Set up a special Cow Protection Grant Fund > > 1. Fifty percent of that would go to ISCOWP to maintain current cows and cover > administrative costs. you mean current cows in ISKCON N. America? > > 2. Fifty percent would go into a scholarship/grant fund to provide training > and > land to young devotee farmers. > > 3. Temples or individual devotees could then make a commitment to donate so > much per month. In addition, there could be fund raising at special events. > > 4. The the grant fund should be set up so there would be some type of outside > oversight as far as accounting is concerned. ISCOWP already has an excellent > record for accountability. Accountability is becoming increasingly important > in > the public's mind these days, so they should be confident that if large sums > are > given, an outside group or auditor will be auditing the funds. Yes, Having a professional is best. > > The central idea would be: Many of us drink milk because Srila Prabhupada said > it is important to build fine brain tissue for spiritual understanding. At the > same time, we want to somehow create an alternative to the current slaughter > house/dairy system. Therefore we want to pay a "tax" on our milk consumption, > so that we can use that money to set up small-scale Krsna conscious farms to > help build up cow protection and create an alternative to the present system. > > In this way the "tax" or donation that one makes would actually be contributing > to setting up an alternative to the present dairy system. At present, we > really > do not have a means to help give young farmers training, equipment and land -- > thus no substantial progress is made towards setting up an alternative. > > This is a tricky thing because it's important that such a program bring in > substantially more than ISCOWP is bringing in right now. This program should > not be something that will in effect decrease the funds that ISCOWP currently > brings in. ISCOWP has show itself to be a cornerstone for the international > devotee cow protection movement. So nothing should be set up to reduce what > they are getting to operate. Thank you on this one. This has always befuddled me. In order to do what you say a lot of money must come much beyond what we collect now. I suppose if something is set up or presented nicely there is something to attract such money. > > On the other hand, we really do need a way that young devotees who are not > financially gifted can devote their brains and youthful energy to setting up > small-scale self-sufficient farms. We need a fund and a way to grant them > money > for training and land. I think that if devotees could actually see -- well > something is going on here, we're not just treading water trying to survive, > we're actually expanding and providing a meaningful place for young people in > our society -- then they will be more inspired to give. I feel this will be an > important way to spread not only cow protection -- but actually to spread Krsna > consciousness in the most attractive way. These young devotee farm families > will be very fired up preachers. Yes, I agree. We are just treading water as a Society in regards to our rrual communities and cow protection. > > Anyway, that's my idea. As I say, it's probably way to complicated to set up, > but I just can't see how we'll get farmers on the land if we don't set up some > farming grant system. I'm thinking that maybe it isn't. You have presented it simply. It is an easy concept to understand. To get the ball rolling we just need to make this simple presentation. Then a bank account or savings account or CD espescially for this. A contract or reciept signed by us that we will use these funds for the point (given by you above) of their choice and that a financail report will be gvein every year. It is when the money becomes a lot that it gets moire complicated. But then you can afford to hire someone, hopefully devotees, to do the accounting (quarterly reports), legal arrangement with land, etc. Maybe when the account reaches a previously determined amount, an amount that you could actually do something with would any administrative costs come into affect. I am use to things growing slowly! Thoughts please and thank you very much. > Your servant, Chayadevi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 When we speak of getting devotees on the land we must be sure what we are suggesting. If land is going to be used for growing a few vegetables, that can be done in a small piece of land attained practically anywhere. If we want persons to farm acres in a cow protection atmosphere then we must have a clear financial understanding how that person will make a living. Here are some models: 1. Living on the land 100% dependant on the land for maintenance. Things sold pay for things not grown. Lifestyle based on protection of cows and powered by oxen primarily. 2. Living in a rural setting but maintained by outside employment. With the excess money from employment some cows/oxen are maintained. 3. Living in an urban setting but having a small locally accessed piece of land for growing kitchen produce. If there is a land trust that holds land and leases it then on what basis would the land be leased? 1.Rent paid. 2.All land farmed according to CP(Cow Protection) principles. Some thoughts. If we advocate 1. then that can be done in any case as there are farms that can be leased probably everywhere. The problem is that if someone wants to farm the CP way then we have not worked out the economic formula yet. Leasing a farm can only be justified if the person is farming conventionaly with our present economic realities. If we can solve on what basis the land trust would allocate land then we have the basis of our land reform proposal for the GBC because ISKCON already has a land bank, and in some ways is already a land trust. We haven't solved the realities and on what basis you would let someone use your land, and what securities there would be on both sides. The land trust idea I feal is a secondary step. The first step is we must quantify the criteria for which we would let someone utilise our land. If we had 100 acres at our disposal and we wanted someone to live on it or use it what would our requirements be from the tenant and what gaurantees would the tenant require from us. A major deliberation which again we have not cracked is how will the tenant make a living for the family from the land they are leasing? ys syam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 Grants for young farmers.... First a pitch to someone who can produce a base funding. second- what about a kind of homesteading... devotees or temples with a surplus of land (at least for the present) give a temporary lease (donated or nominal) to sincere proven responsible devotees wishing to develop land. Sort of a feudal system could be established, with exchange for goods as part of the rent. Because land in Iskcon is notorious for being in flux, a contract of 10 years (5?), contingent upon actual development and tangible production within two years time. Option to buy land at a set price within 5 to 10 years? This would require the landholders to be generous on a "good faith" ticket. (sometimes a difficult concept for devotees, unfortunately). Benefits to landholders - bring new blood to communities, create potential for entrepenurial (spelling?) enterprise (butter, ghee, preserves), good public relations (i.e. living what we preach), potential for attracting outside interest in our society (i.e. preaching potential), give our youth a ground floor investment in the societies and their families future... i could go on. Bottom line is need landowners (individual and temple) and donation of say $50,000 to start. oh yeah and a little extra sweat from Iscowp to help in the training. obeisances ekaBuddhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 > Bottom line is need landowners (individual and temple) and donation of say > $50,000 to start. oh yeah and a little extra sweat from Iscowp to help in > the training. > obeisances ekaBuddhi Yes, that is about the amount I felt things could start to happen. So either the funds could be collected and deposited until they reach that amount or approach mostly only those who have wealth and could give that amount or a few such persons and it could add up t that amount. To approach we need to have a good plan or the best we can get at this time. In order for there to be a guaranteed economic plan for the homesteader there would have to be a wide understanding of the importance of getting devotees on the land amongst the leaders and other devotees. Because that would mean that the devotees only buy bhoga from devotees, employ the treamster and his ox team to do some work, buy milk from the devotees at a higher price than at the market, etc. We really don't have that kind of infrastructure. We really should but the average devotee consciousness is more on a self survivorship. I personally feel that to wait till we have such an understanding will mean a very long time. In the meantime we need to put our materials to educate the devotees. I know that if we received a little help as mentioned by Ekabhuddhi and others it would be very encouraging and I know some young men that wanted to get on the land and if they had received a little help they would have been very inspired. Most people expect to have to do some outside work to get some money, that they are not going to get it all from the land from the get go. Just some thoughts. Your servant, Chayadevi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 While devotees are on a self survival mode, non-devotees in some areas would appreciate "whole foods" as developed in a non violent atmosphere. I think to depend on each other at this time (to pay higher prices etc.) is unrealistic. Better any new "homesteader" projects be taught some methods of marketing their products to the public. Even if it is a roadside stand where possible. Or a greenmarket if they are near a city that has. Or if they are resourceful and energetic do some "canning" etc. for sales to local stores. This could become a community project down the line. 19th century "communes" worked in this way, Oneida Silver company was one such successful endeavor. I don't see, at this time, devotees pulling together unless they see some sort of material gain. Plus with this in mind the incentive for offering land to new farmers would show a tangible growth potential for many communities. Providing self-sufficiency plus entrepenurial job potential could be a big draw within a couple of years. obeisances ekaB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 - <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com> <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>; Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Friday, April 26, 2002 11:16 PM Re: GBC Meeting and Milk Issue Better any new "homesteader" projects be taught some methods of > marketing their products to the public. Even if it is a roadside stand where > possible. Or a greenmarket if they are near a city that has. Or if they are > resourceful and energetic do some "canning" etc. for sales to local stores. > This could become a community project down the line. > Providing self-sufficiency plus entrepenurial job potential could be a big > draw within a couple of years. obeisances ekaB >From where does the training in entrepenurial come from? The ideas are there but not all people who homestead are skilled in marketing unless trained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 i don't know who this e-mail was sent to, BUT. as someone who's been celibate for many years, i'm lovin the change of regs proposal. BUT on a serious note, the whole shpeal (stuff) about killing the calf etc. should be written up and used at the conference table. Sometimes a slap in the face (of reality) is needed. obeisances ekaB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 This is where the community "growth" concept comes in. Funnily I was thinking i should have addressed this. Obviously those who are adept at farming careing for livestock etc. might not have a propensity for other business and vice-versa. A "marriage" of hopefully honest straightforward (hard to find in my generation, but maybe {hopefully} not in younger) hardworking devotees, looking to build a village atmosphere would take up "what the other lacks" etc.. Basically cottage industries built on the backbone of vedic purity. This can be a great selling point, if done sincerely and not just as a gimmick. First you need the hardlaborers those liked Balabadra, Chaya etc.,, then figure out how to branch out with whatever products they can produce over the subsistence level. i.e in GitaNagari 25+years ago they had award winning milk, so sweets, butter, cheese = cottage industry. In my area devotees were harvesting baby greens and selling to gourmet restaurants. If you have people that only want to do the hard part and don't have a good head for business, team them with a compatable person, couple that loves to communicate with the public (preaching, etc). THIS is NOT a hardcore business proposition, but designed for people who want simple living - high thinking. Not designed to make money for big houses, but rather a simple, pleasant means of supporting a family. At the same time a nice well rounded addition to a community. obeisances ekaB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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