nature of Spiritual Economics precludes working for money?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> So to conclude, I can not see how making money is

> inherently materialistic.

 

According to the Bible, it is love of money that is the root of all

evil, not money itself. If the brahmanas are to be the true leaders,

then they should first create a system where they don't use money before

they expect the vaisyas to eschew it. Fasting from ugrakarmic bhoga

would be a start.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,

 

Below:

 

--- Mark Middle Mountain <gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com> wrote: >

>

> >

> > So to conclude, I can not see how making money is

> > inherently materialistic.

>

> According to the Bible, it is love of money that is

> the root of all

> evil, not money itself. If the brahmanas are to be

> the true leaders,

> then they should first create a system where they

> don't use money before

> they expect the vaisyas to eschew it. Fasting from

> ugrakarmic bhoga

> would be a start.

>

 

There seems to be a contradiction here. Why create a

system where money is not used, if it is the love of

money and not money itself that is at fault. Surely

one should concentrate more on the nature of the

attachment than the attached article in ones analysis.

 

This is a fundamental point here, for as any

householder will tell you that if you have no money

you will soon have no family as the woman will leave

you and will find refuse anywhere. This is not

guaranteed, but pretty close to it.

For a viable farming system to work money is a must as

is profit. It is in the reasons to accumulate money

and ones attachments to ones (borrowed) possessions

that lies the key, not money or the possessions

themselves.

 

In regards to fasting from urgakarmic bhoga, I agree

to an extent. I would say that when bhoga comes from a

Protection Farms system then it should be bought as a

substitute to normal farming systems, either with or

without premium. It is rediculous to think that veg

and milk from today's system is OK once offered, when

the higher offering is the produce from the better

system. It is rediculous to think that ISKCON devotees

will not put there money where their mouth is and

demand produce from this system, and supply produce

for this system. It is called outright hypocricy.

 

Mark

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Mark:

> In regards to fasting from urgakarmic bhoga, I agree

> to an extent. I would say that when bhoga comes from a

> Protection Farms system then it should be bought as a

> substitute to normal farming systems, either with or

> without premium. It is rediculous to think that veg

> and milk from today's system is OK once offered, when

> the higher offering is the produce from the better

> system. It is rediculous to think that ISKCON devotees

> will not put there money where their mouth is and

> demand produce from this system, and supply produce

> for this system. It is called outright hypocricy.

 

Comment:

I also agree, whatever the devotees produce should be purchased above

anything from another source and this applies even more if it is done using

ox-power. Unfortunately, they choose store bought 'karmic' blood milk to

fresh milk from protected cows and they choose store bought veggies to

devotee grown ones. This has to do with conditioning, if it is advertized on

the tube it must be good or if the doctor says take this no question.

[Guest guest]

Rohini et al,

 

Thank you for the article on Spiritual Economics and

your email, both of which have been read and taken in.

 

> "One who disregards the injunctions of the çästras

> and acts whimsically, as

> he likes, never achieves the perfection of life, not

> to speak of happiness.

> Nor does he return home to the spiritual world."

 

I have read, and continue to read, sastras. It is with

this knowledge that I debate from. All, except the

truly perfect, act whimsically to a degree, and it is

that degree that keeps us seperate from the Truth.

>From my perspective, there is not one on this

conference that is perfect, therefore we all have some

whimsicality to our lives. I have not been

hypocritical with you about my lifestyle, and in the

sastras I see my place on the ladder. It is from this

space that I come forth and place my piece.

 

 

>It is important to understand that

> Spiritual Economics refers to

> more than an economic system - it is a state of

> consciousness. That state of

> consciousness is the consciousness of an individual

> who is living the full

> tenants of the Bhagavad-Gita, and the individual's

> practice of Spiritual

> Economics is visible hallmark of such.

 

Yes, true Spiritual Economics is the real utopia that

we are all ataining to. It is Eden, krsnaloka, the

True economy of reciprical love. Whilst having this as

our highest ideal, we must also recognise our

limitations and the present reality around us, which

is what Dhanesvara dasa says when he mentions a

transition period, and I talk of the alphabet soup to

travel down. He then points out that it would be best

to rid society of money - of course it would, but that

will not come overnight. He acknowledges that the

existence of money does not preclude a spiritual

economy, which is contrary to your statement, that it

can be used perfectly as did Prabhupada.

 

- Certainly there is no material impedement to the

advancement of devotional service-

 

Then he states to be rid of money.

 

-But our intention here is to effect a significant

sociological change-

 

I find the whole of his article, whilst having merit,

to be of a sociological bent, at times elitist,

communist, draconian, Orwellian, even like a Khmer

Rouge Year 0. It is a Utopian vision, like so many

other books and societies that have been formed this

way. That is of course a critisism, I also liked it

for its more salient features.

 

What it is not, to me, is transcendental, because

money is not the root of all evil and neither are the

fruits of one's actions. It is the atachment to them

that seperates us.

 

Arjuna fought without atachment and inhereted an

($multi-million$) empire, yet it was pure, he knew he

was the steward of his body, mind and artefacts (even

as an empire), not the owner. That, to me, is one of

the main messages of the Gita, the other, and highest,

is transcendental love.

 

> Material economics promotes a consciousness of"

> lack" and the need to get.

> Spiritual Economics promotes a consciousness of

> wholeness (om purnam adah

> purnam idam.Isopanisad invocation) and the joy of

> giving. Spiritual

> Economics also delineates the basis of varnasrama

> dharma, and establishes

> the place of genuinely brahminical men and women in

> society.<SE>

 

Yes, fine. Genuines please come forth and organise the

world.

 

 

> When Srila Prabhupada first was staying with Dr.

> Misra he was asked why he

> did not eat with a fork or wear western dress - he

> was not here to learn

> western ways but to teach the Vaisnava philosphy. He

> always set first class

> example and asked his followers to do the same. He

> did not however reject

> anyone, if he saw they could not do the best level,

> he gave them a modified

> form to do. That the person would strive for the

> best platform and when they

> had attained that they would give up the modified

> form. The minimum must be

> done and you must always strive to improve the

> standard. So best the top

> most form is to be done, if not possible then a step

> lower, but always

> strive to do the best possible.

>

> We all have imperfections, an intelligent person is

> best able to understand

> the variations, this is why I stated that the

> initail members of a

> Varnasrama village must be a brahmana he will be

> living very simply just

> providing for his own basic needs; which, because he

> is simple and austre,

> is very little. He will grow some foodstuff and a

> few flowers. As time

> passes he will engage a vaisya(s) so that others

> will be able to receive the

> Lords mercy, because his main business is to teach

> others by his example,

> making them aware of the details and the importance

> of the spiritual

> precepts. In a Vaisnava brahmana this is secondary

> to his business to

> remembering Krishna but it is no less important

> because this is the desire

> of Krishna, for someone to teach others.

> >

> > I want to form a farming system in the mode of

> > goodness, not transcendental to it because I can't

> do

> > that at this stage of my life (for many reasons).

> > Surely a krsna consious person should recognise

> this

> > and aid in this elevation from ignorance to pasion

> to

> > goodness, knowing it is a step upwards towards

> > transcendance. If this involves protecting farm

> > animals and the exchanges of resources including

> > money, should one not be transcendental to this.

> >

> Comment:

> Yes protection is there, but as Rupanugas, we must

> give 50% of funds

> acquired to spreading KC directly (printing of books

> or some other form of

> glorification of Krishna.). This is to purify that

> income from the effects

> of Kali. If it is not done then gradually Kali will

> bring into play all his

> associates on one's endeavours (he was given this

> facility by Krsna's

> representative). His assocates (Kali's) are not

> gentle, subtle at first, yes

> but never gentle; asuric culture leads eventually to

> destruction of ones'

> enviroment and ones true self.

 

In response,

 

I have come to this conference saying I want to form a

profitable farming system for the lifetime protection

of farm animals. Imagine I was not a blooped devotee,

but a regular karmi guy, who just happened to be vegy

and came across the idea of protecting farm animals as

a nice idea, and ended up on this conference looking

for advice and help and data. Well, I would have

probably got into the temple by now and be immersed in

my newfound knowledge, or been blown away by the

fundamental intransigence of devotees points of views.

 

I have told you all where I'm at and what are my

interests. I do this because I feel this is devotional

service, carrying out some of the orders of the guru.

But also because after joining ISKCON and becoming

brahmacari and wanting to go to a farm, and not being

able to do so because in 1988 it was a chaos in Europe

and the US. And upon leaving having lived in

communities with no money for months on end, and lived

a very simple peasant life - which by the way we could

all do, just go to a less developed country in a rural

area and take over abandoned land, then you don't need

endowments. And then studying Agroforestry and doing

my projects on vegetarian farming systems, and then

working with cows and oxen some more, now I feel I

should debate all I have learnt.

 

And to me, the fundamental issue here is that we are

limiting our devotional service with some sort of

outdated communist-style social programming philosophy

which states that money is bad, profit is worse and

doing both with protected cows is a sin, when it most

clearly is not. Why do we not allow a more pluralistic

approach that engages everyone from thier limited

positions that they are at? To accept diversity - a

Christian Protection Farms, a Bhuddist one, and why

not even a gay and lesbian one. One must see that a

fundamentalist lifestyle needs pragmatism in the

imperfect world. Krsna saw it, of course, as did

Prabhupada. So when I come to you and ask if I can be

engaged from where I'm at amd mostly get rebuke, then

this is not transcendentalism, this is

narrow-mindedness.

 

If Prabhupada were here and I approached him with this

model, and after much refusal on my part to just go to

a piece of land and farm a little for my subsistence

needs, I feel sure he would guide me in how to run a

large goshala taking into account the inputs,

processes and outputs, production needs and the needs

to not make a loss. I'm sure he would say try to make

profit, but not for the sake of it, produce and send

the produce to restaurants in the city - in fact make

a business that works, perform the duty of a

businessman, not to be attached to the fruits of the

activities, but to have fruits for that is the

activity. Make sure the business works and any excess

profit donate half to spititual knowledge distribution

groups and the rest store for a bad day that will

surely come.

 

Whilst we see doing business with cows as sinful then

we are destroying the sacred cow. That is my

conclusion after all my research, and nothing anyone

has said on this conference or outside has yet changed

that opinion, though I am all ears. I believe Syam

shares this view, he has told me so and to yourselves.

 

We must do business as a step forward to our utopian

ideal.

 

Please comment on this, as my (unattached?)

frustration of this issue on the conference wants to

remedy this issue, for then if positive will we not

start to formulate how to turn this into a success?

 

Yours very sincerely and with all the humility I can

muster,

 

Mark Chatburn.

 

__________

 

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or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > According to the Bible, it is love of money that is

> > the root of all

> > evil, not money itself. If the brahmanas are to be

> > the true leaders,

> > then they should first create a system where they

> > don't use money before

> > they expect the vaisyas to eschew it. Fasting from

> > ugrakarmic bhoga

> > would be a start.

> >

>

> There seems to be a contradiction here.

 

My point exactly.

 

> Why create a

> system where money is not used, if it is the love of

> money and not money itself that is at fault. Surely

> one should concentrate more on the nature of the

> attachment than the attached article in ones analysis.

 

My point is the "brahmanas" (deliberate use of quotations) can't

theorize that vaisyas should not use money, when they themselves are

using it. I use the point of fasting from ugrakarmic bhoga to point up

that they aren't even doing that small step towards the theorectical

ideal.

 

> It is rediculous to think that veg

> and milk from today's system is OK once offered, when

> the higher offering is the produce from the better

> system.

 

I believe it is okay on an emergency footing, but we are way past that

point as regards what could have been accomplished and that to continue

to offer blood milk to the Deities and make no endeavor to change is

unacceptable.

[Guest guest]

Sending this again as I didn't receive a copy, so I

don't know if others did,

 

 

Rohini et al,

>

> Thank you for the article on Spiritual Economics and

> your email, both of which have been read and taken

> in.

>

> > "One who disregards the injunctions of the çästras

> > and acts whimsically, as

> > he likes, never achieves the perfection of life,

> not

> > to speak of happiness.

> > Nor does he return home to the spiritual world."

>

> I have read, and continue to read, sastras. It is

> with

> this knowledge that I debate from. All, except the

> truly perfect, act whimsically to a degree, and it

> is

> that degree that keeps us seperate from the Truth.

> From my perspective, there is not one on this

> conference that is perfect, therefore we all have

> some

> whimsicality to our lives. I have not been

> hypocritical with you about my lifestyle, and in the

> sastras I see my place on the ladder. It is from

> this

> space that I come forth and place my piece.

>

>

> >It is important to understand that

> > Spiritual Economics refers to

> > more than an economic system - it is a state of

> > consciousness. That state of

> > consciousness is the consciousness of an

> individual

> > who is living the full

> > tenants of the Bhagavad-Gita, and the individual's

> > practice of Spiritual

> > Economics is visible hallmark of such.

>

> Yes, true Spiritual Economics is the real utopia

> that

> we are all ataining to. It is Eden, krsnaloka, the

> True economy of reciprical love. Whilst having this

> as

> our highest ideal, we must also recognise our

> limitations and the present reality around us, which

> is what Dhanesvara dasa says when he mentions a

> transition period, and I talk of the alphabet soup

> to

> travel down. He then points out that it would be

> best

> to rid society of money - of course it would, but

> that

> will not come overnight. He acknowledges that the

> existence of money does not preclude a spiritual

> economy, which is contrary to your statement, that

> it

> can be used perfectly as did Prabhupada.

>

> - Certainly there is no material impedement to the

> advancement of devotional service-

>

> Then he states to be rid of money.

>

> -But our intention here is to effect a significant

> sociological change-

>

> I find the whole of his article, whilst having

> merit,

> to be of a sociological bent, at times elitist,

> communist, draconian, Orwellian, even like a Khmer

> Rouge Year 0. It is a Utopian vision, like so many

> other books and societies that have been formed this

> way. That is of course a critisism, I also liked it

> for its more salient features.

>

> What it is not, to me, is transcendental, because

> money is not the root of all evil and neither are

> the

> fruits of one's actions. It is the atachment to them

> that seperates us.

>

> Arjuna fought without atachment and inhereted an

> ($multi-million$) empire, yet it was pure, he knew

> he

> was the steward of his body, mind and artefacts

> (even

> as an empire), not the owner. That, to me, is one of

> the main messages of the Gita, the other, and

> highest,

> is transcendental love.

>

> > Material economics promotes a consciousness of"

> > lack" and the need to get.

> > Spiritual Economics promotes a consciousness of

> > wholeness (om purnam adah

> > purnam idam.Isopanisad invocation) and the joy of

> > giving. Spiritual

> > Economics also delineates the basis of varnasrama

> > dharma, and establishes

> > the place of genuinely brahminical men and women

> in

> > society.<SE>

>

> Yes, fine. Genuines please come forth and organise

> the

> world.

>

>

> > When Srila Prabhupada first was staying with Dr.

> > Misra he was asked why he

> > did not eat with a fork or wear western dress - he

> > was not here to learn

> > western ways but to teach the Vaisnava philosphy.

> He

> > always set first class

> > example and asked his followers to do the same. He

> > did not however reject

> > anyone, if he saw they could not do the best

> level,

> > he gave them a modified

> > form to do. That the person would strive for the

> > best platform and when they

> > had attained that they would give up the modified

> > form. The minimum must be

> > done and you must always strive to improve the

> > standard. So best the top

> > most form is to be done, if not possible then a

> step

> > lower, but always

> > strive to do the best possible.

> >

> > We all have imperfections, an intelligent person

> is

> > best able to understand

> > the variations, this is why I stated that the

> > initail members of a

> > Varnasrama village must be a brahmana he will be

> > living very simply just

> > providing for his own basic needs; which, because

> he

> > is simple and austre,

> > is very little. He will grow some foodstuff and a

> > few flowers. As time

> > passes he will engage a vaisya(s) so that others

> > will be able to receive the

> > Lords mercy, because his main business is to teach

> > others by his example,

> > making them aware of the details and the

> importance

> > of the spiritual

> > precepts. In a Vaisnava brahmana this is secondary

> > to his business to

> > remembering Krishna but it is no less important

> > because this is the desire

> > of Krishna, for someone to teach others.

> > >

> > > I want to form a farming system in the mode of

> > > goodness, not transcendental to it because I

> can't

> > do

> > > that at this stage of my life (for many

> reasons).

> > > Surely a krsna consious person should recognise

> > this

> > > and aid in this elevation from ignorance to

> pasion

> > to

> > > goodness, knowing it is a step upwards towards

> > > transcendance. If this involves protecting farm

> > > animals and the exchanges of resources including

> > > money, should one not be transcendental to this.

> > >

> > Comment:

> > Yes protection is there, but as Rupanugas, we must

> > give 50% of funds

> > acquired to spreading KC directly (printing of

> books

> > or some other form of

> > glorification of Krishna.). This is to purify that

> > income from the effects

> > of Kali. If it is not done then gradually Kali

> will

> > bring into play all his

> > associates on one's endeavours (he was given this

> > facility by Krsna's

> > representative). His assocates (Kali's) are not

> > gentle, subtle at first, yes

> > but never gentle; asuric culture leads eventually

> to

> > destruction of ones'

> > enviroment and ones true self.

>

> In response,

>

> I have come to this conference saying I want to form

> a

> profitable farming system for the lifetime

> protection

> of farm animals. Imagine I was not a blooped

> devotee,

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

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