Le Cow Quote Du Jour # 98 part 2

[Guest guest]

-

Taraka (das) ACBSP (Gita Nagari, PA - USA) <Taraka.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; cowz

<cowz (AT) jc-net (DOT) com>; Taraka dasa <tarakadas (AT) aol (DOT) com>

Friday, June 15, 2001 2:32 PM

Le Cow Quote Du Jour # 98 part 2

 

 

> Dear Prabhus:

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> In this text, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami presents what would be for most of

us,

> an advanced conception of simple living and obviously, not many of us in

> Westernized countries are ready for this. Because we are so heavily

> conditioned, it becomes difficult to understand what is actually

necessary.

> Verses such as this help to put things into proper perspective. Why do we

> find simple living so complicated? Why is it that Srila Prabhupada

> prescribes plain living to save time for Krsna consciousness and yet we

see

> that it takes all day to do it?

>

> Srila Prabhupada was not ignorant of what simple living entails. He had

> abundant practical experience of it and saw it all around himself as well.

> The fact is, most of the world's people are still living simply. The vast

> majority of the earth's population is living a simple, agrarian lifestyle.

>

> >From 1975-77 I traveled extensively in India. I participated in one of

the

> first Iskcon ox-cart padayatras. What I saw in the vast tracts of land

> outside the cities was simple living exactly as Srila Prabhupada describes

> it and just as it has been going on, unchanged for hundreds of thousands

of

> years. I saw most of India's one billion people living simple, happy,

> religious lives unencumbered by so many artificial necessities. They

> produced all their necessities locally without difficulty, and had

abundant

> free time. It was a most beautiful and attractive thing to see.

 

Comment:

In the cenntenial year I travelled to a number of villages in a Gandhi

project (to the east of Puna in Maharastra) and saw much the same, these

villages were having difficulty with nutrition and the wealthy people of the

big cities was funding medical and improvements introduced into the

villages. This improvements consisted of expanding the income base of each

individual household. The initail activites where a change of milk source

from goats to cows (the local cows were for draft only, Kilnar) the cows

introduced were from a variety of breeds from neigbhouring areas but were

improvement in milk production. Each family was given a cow and a bull was

introduced from one of the other breeds to improve the milk prduction of the

local Kilnar breed, the headman was the person in charge of the bull.They

were also introducing mulberry trees and silk worms and various other

cottage type industries to broaden the income base of the village.

ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Devotees:

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to

Srila Prabhupada.

 

I really have enjoyed the last few quotes from our

servant, Taraka dasa.

 

Rohita Prabhu in his reply mentioned development work

in India. I was trained to work in third world

villages as a development professional. I have such a

longing for such a life - not so much as a development

professional - no, as a simple peasant villager. Yet,

like many of us, we have choices to make that can be

very hard, and it is in this ballance of choices that

leads us to compromises that take us away from the

ideal.

 

To illustrate:

 

My story is of having a nearly 4-year old boy in

Buenos Aires, Argentina. His mother since having the

child has suffered terribly from a mental health

problem of obsessions, and is not totally fit to look

after the child. Yet as she is from the upper-classes,

things get by economically, and I am stuck here as she

has rights to the child. Sometimes we live together,

sometimes seperate. Argentina is not like the US or

EU. There you can work 40-50 hours and earn a good

wage and live a good materialistic life, if that is

not oxymoronic. Here, people work 50-60 hour weeks and

still find it impossible to make it to the end of the

month. It is a city, pure passion, and Latin at that.

Meat, sex, drugs, dance - you name it, this is Latin

America.

 

So, why don't I leave? Why don't I join the temple,

the farm?

 

I would find it so difficult to leave my son. For a

while maybe, but for long I don't think I could - too

attached, wouldn't want to hurt him, we are very

close.

 

And the temple? I have little faith in the leaders of

ISKCON, and little stomach for the fanatical hypocricy

of many devotees. I have tried to work with the farm,

but the management is in my opinion unskilled and

incompetent. All around BA are organic farms making a

living selling to the city, yet the devotees on the

farm in BA can hardly grow too much even with enough

labour. They make not subsistence let alone

commercial.

 

Still, with association from this conference, and the

enlightening words of Guru, I become more endeared.

 

 

The point, beyond my example, here though, is that we

are all compromised to some extent to Maya - the

material entrapment. Too espouse the highest is

fantastic, but then not to accept ones compromised

position and to actively plan how to get out of it is

foolish. I am a fool, as much as many others.

 

So, the highest is not to engage in any

self-gratificatory activity, be it as a karmi school

teacher, a labourer, an accountant or even a cow

protector. But we do, all of us to some extenct. I am

probably the worst on this conference at that.

 

The last quote of Taraka dasa talked about how

sukadeva goswami (I think) would not have met the king

when he was in his kingly state, only when the king

went looking for enlightentment. So again, it can be

seen that the Vedic times had the transcendentalsits

and the materialistically inclined, yet in varnasrama

dahrma - on a progressive path.

 

That is why I still think that the whole idea of an

economically viable farming system within the Western

sphere is something that is not a total waste of time,

spiritually speaking. Many devotees hold down jobs in

the karmi sphere. Bhaktivinod Thakur held down a job,

yet was still a pure devotee.

 

I often think, with all my pushing here for a

compromise to the farming system, will devotees on

this conference take it on. When it is not the ideal,

when it is not totally Prabhupadian, Ghandian, will

they be interested. Sometimes yes, other times no.

Often I know not who reads me, and of what they care.

 

Yet, I need a compromise. With the right backing I

could even do this in BA, of all places in Argentina.

But you devotees are so reluctant to compromise on

this issue.

 

Devotees will sell paintings, do other jobs to make

the money we "need" to live the lives we live, but

with the sacred cow you find it so difficult to see it

in a modern business setting, when the opportunity is

so clearly a possibility.

 

Has my logic, my reasoning, my begging, come to so

little, that I (as in my idea, as you do treat me

well) am to be shunned because I see doing business

with protected farm animals as the compromise I need,

and many others would need.

 

It must be difficult, as when Prabhupada put men with

women in the temple he was critisised. So it must be

difficult to change many years of resistance to a

commercially-orientated, in opposition to

subsistence-orientated, farming system; though I

certainly do not want to preclude the latter.

 

Personally, I think it sensible to go down both

tracks, as it would be far preferable to have devotees

on a commercial Protected Farm, than selling Hong

Kongers.

 

These are still my thoughts, and still I find the

responses from many on the conference to be

insufficient to the needs of the situation that I and

the many materially compromised (would) find to your

answers here. If we can not go the full hog, we need a

half-way, a progression.

 

Yours most sincerely,

 

Mark Chatburn

 

 

__________

 

Get your free @.co.uk address at http://mail..co.uk

or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie

[Guest guest]

> The point, beyond my example, here though, is that we

> are all compromised to some extent to Maya - the

> material entrapment. Too espouse the highest is

> fantastic, but then not to accept ones compromised

> position and to actively plan how to get out of it is

> foolish. I am a fool, as much as many others.

 

This is a fact, many of us are compromised. That does not change the facts

regarding the highest philosophy though. The fact is that we have to come to

a level of purity before we can go home. It seems fashionable nowadays in

ISKCON for devotees to sort of assume that whatever we do, Krsna is very

merciful and at the time of death somehow Krsna or Prabhupada will come to

us and take us home.

 

That might happen, but if we *expect* that it will happen, and dont work on

ourselves, it might not. If at the end of our lives, we dont really want

Krsna and His world with all of our hearts, but do have strong desires for

material life, then Krsna will fulfill whatever our stongest desires are, he

wants us to be happy, according to our desires, not necesarily his.

 

> That is why I still think that the whole idea of an

> economically viable farming system within the Western

> sphere is something that is not a total waste of time,

> spiritually speaking. Many devotees hold down jobs in

> the karmi sphere. Bhaktivinod Thakur held down a job,

> yet was still a pure devotee.

 

In general I agree with your sentiments in this regard, a blind uncle is

better than none, and to start getting into sustainable, yet commercial

livlihoods is a step in the right direction, especialy as regards selling

paintings, which I feel creates very bad habits in devotees, and is not at

all the kind of livlihood that we should have. My reservation was against

making a livlihood exclusively cow based, with no safety net for the cows.

Give a scenario where the cows are always *happy*, and I would say go for

it. Krsna really does care about the cows being *happy*. For devotees that

should be the criteria. If we dont care for the cows *happiness* I dont

think Krsna will be too worried about ours.

 

I object to notions that say that Prabhupadas ideas cannot work, or are

impractical, I beleive that these are fully possible, its just that many

devotees dont care for them.

 

> I often think, with all my pushing here for a

> compromise to the farming system, will devotees on

> this conference take it on. When it is not the ideal,

> when it is not totally Prabhupadian, Ghandian, will

> they be interested. Sometimes yes, other times no.

> Often I know not who reads me, and of what they care.

 

I think it is a mistake to generalise, to lump devotees into one basket. I

personaly feel that many devotees are actualy pretending, they know what

they should be, and they pretend to be there for the sake of acceptance, or

worse, aggrandisement. As long as no one pushes them too hard to prove their

sincerity, the sham pays off, or appears to, except that they are forced to

be dishonest, and they hide behind dogma.

 

What you need to do is actualy find people who mean what they say, and are

prepared to act on it. Not easy to find such people, and I myself have felt

greatly unhappy at not having such association myself. In fact I must

confess to having been a pretender myself for many years, and it is only in

recent years that I have been forced to face up to it, i'm still not cured

though.

 

I guess also that you may consider that I am one of those that pushes the

Prabhupada line; I beleive it wholeheartedly, but I am not living up to it

either. When it comes to discussions about what should be done, I always

tend to go for the ideal, but personaly I am trying to reach it as much as

anyone else.

 

You are speaking of compromise. I beleive that we need to always be aware

that we are compromising, until we are able to reach a state where we have

the ideal. So personaly I would favour plans that recognise that they are

steps towards a higher goal, rather than ends to themselves. I believe that

we will only begin to realise varnasrama once we have made many small

compromise steps in order to reach the goal.

 

Maybe it is not possible to reach the ideal, but if we keep it in our sites,

and hanker for it, then it might be that Krsna and Prabhupada apear to us at

our end, and take us to the ideal, because that is what we hanker for.

 

So really I think that you should not get so disheartened by the state of

the devotees. Each is an individual that is being put through a variety of

tests, and some are failing. But as failure is the pillar of success, things

should turn out right in the end. If you can't find what you are looking for

then maybe Krsna is testing you! But eventualy Krsna fulfills all our

desires according to how much we deserve.

 

Personaly I think that our ideas are not that different, and maybe it is the

lack of full communication that email allows that has created impressions of

each other that are too stark.

 

Really you have to live your life according to what you beleive in, and at

the end of the day, you have to do what you feel is right. Don't expect too

much cooperation from anyone, unless you have signed a contract with them,

or know them really well, and I mean *really well*, because talk is easy,

action is something else.

 

Your servant

Samba das

[Guest guest]

> Comment:

> In the cenntenial year I travelled to a number of villages in a Gandhi

> project (to the east of Puna in Maharastra) and saw much the same, these

> villages were having difficulty with nutrition and the wealthy people of

> the big cities was funding medical and improvements introduced into the

> villages. This improvements consisted of expanding the income base of each

> individual household. The initail activites where a change of milk source

> from goats to cows (the local cows were for draft only, Kilnar) the cows

> introduced were from a variety of breeds from neigbhouring areas but were

> improvement in milk production. Each family was given a cow and a bull was

> introduced from one of the other breeds to improve the milk prduction of

> the local Kilnar breed, the headman was the person in charge of the

> bull.They were also introducing mulberry trees and silk worms and various

> other cottage type industries to broaden the income base of the village.

> ys, Rohita dasa

 

I'd like to share some of my experiences for what ever it may be worth. I

was travelling in areas quite far from any cities. These people were really

quite isolated. None had ever seen a westerner. I only saw obvious instances

of nutritional problems and diseases in villages closer to the cities where

various influences had compelled the villagers to deviate from the

traditional system. For example, I sometimes saw villages in which goats or

chickens were kept. These villagers looked terrible, physically. Mostly, I

saw clean simple villages full of healthy, well-fed, brite-faced, smiling

people who were clearly not under any kind of pressure and had no problem to

break from their routine for a spiritual program at any time of the day.

These villages definately depended on cows and oxen for everything. The

homes and compound walls were all made of cow dung. All cooking was done

with cow dung. All tilling was done with oxen. All transportation was done

with oxen. Threshing of grains was done by oxen. Irrigation was done with

oxen. Crops were all fertilized only with cow dung.

 

Fruit trees of all types grew all around the homes providing cool shade and

abundant fruit. The yield of just one of these trees far exceeded the

ability of even the largest family to consume, so lots of fruit went to

market, and EVERY family had money, but not much need to spend. Every bit of

available land was cultivated and covered with lush, green crops. Even steep

slopes were covered with terraces and ingenious, earthen irrigation systems.

Wells full of fresh water were everywhere unless there was a river, lake or

pond nearby. It seems that almost anywhere you go, you can dig down 10 to 15

feet and hit water. Even in the most remote countryside, there were always

wells situated at short intervals along all the roads. While travelling at

ox-speed, we would encounter a village at a rate of two or three per day;

roughly three or four hours apart.

 

When I arrived in a village, the villagers would all pour out of their homes

and come running out of the fields to great us. They would make offerings of

all kinds to us and our Gaura-Nitai deities. Everyone would chant with us

and EVERY SINGLE family would buy a small book for one rupee. I used to go

door to door with a basket in which there was a framed picture of Gopal

Krsna. Every householder would fill my basket with all kinds of grains. If I

came in the morning or evening, they would all supply fresh milk.(at those

times I would bring a pot) In village market places, all the vendors would

load me up with fresh produce of all kinds. The head of the village would

always come out to receive us and make all kinds of arrangements for our

comfort. Our oxen were all fed and watered sumptuously and their carts

loaded with enough hay to feed them for several days. All the prominent men

of the village would beg us to take meals at their home where we were also

fed sumptuously. We always had so much bhoga donated that we would prepare

feasts enough to feed the entire village and still have weeks worth of bhoga

remaining. When we encountered temples, we would donate the excess bhoga to

the deities there. In no case did we ever actually ask for anything. Most of

the time I did not even have to use the basket. People just approached us

with offerings. Our carts were loaded mostly with books. We also carried

Gaura-nitai and their paraph., pots and utensils for cooking and straw mats

for sitting and sleeping on and that's about it apart from the one set of

clothing on our backs. It was great! Although we had practically nothing, we

were never in need of anything at any time.

 

These people were not poor. They had all their necessities in abundance.

They were well and cleanly dressed. They had plenty of bhoga and were all

well fed. They were not like the emmaciated refugees we often see in the

cities. They were healthy, happy and relaxed. I never saw anyone work up a

sweat. No one was ever in a hurry. No one ever appeared to be in any kind of

anxiety. In the morning they would enjoy a big and leisurely breakfast and

and after casually cleaning up they would shuffle off to work a rice paddy

or what ever. They would work around their homes and in their fields in the

morning till the heat of the day set in and then by late morning work

stopped till afternoon when it got cooler out. When the sun set, the entire

village went to sleep, but they were up very early. There was always lots of

time for their puja several times a day and never a reason to neglect it. As

far as I could see, the men were generally not putting in more than six

hours a day and these were very leisurely hours. The women were busy most of

the day, but also at a very relaxed pace. Additionally, the field work did

not go on all year around, but only during the growing season which came

after the rains and lasted maybe three to five months. In some cases the

season would be stretched by irrigation, but mostly irrigating was done only

for growing rice. Even during the growing season, people are busy when it's

time to plant and busy when it's time to harvest and do very little in the

fields the rest of the time. They don't seem to have much a problem with

weeds. Hardly any come up after the oxen have tilled. They don't use any

obvious means of pest control. They plant enough to feed the bugs and other

critters and still have enough for themselves.

 

These people's minds were not disturbed by unnecessary desires imposed on

them by outside contact. They were very content in their simple village life

and they were EXTRAORDINARILY God conscious. They were living in such a way

that they were always aware of their complete dependence on God for

everything and God supplied all their needs through the agency of the land

and the cows. To protect the cows, the land and to satisfy God by their

service was therefore the prime necessity.

 

A westerner might go stir crazy in such an environment. Some of us have

become addicted to all kinds of incessant sensory stimuli. But many would

find this setting peaceful, beautiful, and extremely pleasing. Even these

villagers are not content simply to watch their rice grow. They have lots of

festivals, celebrations and social gatherings and these are all done in a

big, colorful way with lots of food, music, dance, etc. At these times,

everyone is happy to share their opulence.

 

I thought these remembrances might be interesting for those who have no

experience of this. I'm not necessarily trying to make a point here, but if

I was, it would be that the simple life style Srila Prabhupada describes is

not a theory, but a system which has been in practice for millenia and is

still working nicely today for millions of people. Srila Prabhupada was not

introducing something new and unproven. Of course, different parts of the

world present challenges not found in India. Hare Krsna.

 

Ys,

Taraka dasa

[Guest guest]

Maybe I have been a little heavy on this topic of 'whole hog', I feel there

is room for the rest, but when it comes to the initail committment those

involved must be of the highest caliber - for the sake of establishing

something that will last for the next ten thousand years. Why? Because it is

in the nature of the material world that imperfections will creep in, that

is the nature in the material world, especially in this age where Kali has

been given so much liberity. Once a few qualified persons have committed and

they are supported in their endeavour the greatest hurdle will be

surmounted, the hurdle of the mind, 'it is not possible in this age' or 'I

'm too fallen, let someone else do it' and so on. Then others, maybe not so

austere in nature will be enthused to become involved, either whole hog or

according to what they can do. There is room for all sorts. This will happen

soon, the time is riping, more are thinking along these lines and a growing

need is manifesting for something to happen now. Once the ball starts to

roll, at first it maybe a little slow but gradually it will go quicker and

quicker, then it will spread rapidly. This happen with the moving of

Vaisnavism to the west and this revival will have the same effect even more

pronouced. We just need to keep it pure as it was given to us, so that we

can pass it on in the same way to those that will come after. That is the

sacrifice of those who are pioneering.

ys,

Rohita dasa

 

-

mark chatburn <markjon11 >

Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

<markjon11 >

Friday, June 15, 2001 10:11 PM

Re: Le Cow Quote Du Jour # 98 part 2

 

 

> Dear Devotees:

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to

> Srila Prabhupada.

>

> I really have enjoyed the last few quotes from our

> servant, Taraka dasa.

>

> Rohita Prabhu in his reply mentioned development work

> in India. I was trained to work in third world

> villages as a development professional. I have such a

> longing for such a life - not so much as a development

> professional - no, as a simple peasant villager. Yet,

> like many of us, we have choices to make that can be

> very hard, and it is in this ballance of choices that

> leads us to compromises that take us away from the

> ideal.

>

> To illustrate:

>

> My story is of having a nearly 4-year old boy in

> Buenos Aires, Argentina. His mother since having the

> child has suffered terribly from a mental health

> problem of obsessions, and is not totally fit to look

> after the child. Yet as she is from the upper-classes,

> things get by economically, and I am stuck here as she

> has rights to the child. Sometimes we live together,

> sometimes seperate. Argentina is not like the US or

> EU. There you can work 40-50 hours and earn a good

> wage and live a good materialistic life, if that is

> not oxymoronic. Here, people work 50-60 hour weeks and

> still find it impossible to make it to the end of the

> month. It is a city, pure passion, and Latin at that.

> Meat, sex, drugs, dance - you name it, this is Latin

> America.

>

> So, why don't I leave? Why don't I join the temple,

> the farm?

>

> I would find it so difficult to leave my son. For a

> while maybe, but for long I don't think I could - too

> attached, wouldn't want to hurt him, we are very

> close.

>

> And the temple? I have little faith in the leaders of

> ISKCON, and little stomach for the fanatical hypocricy

> of many devotees. I have tried to work with the farm,

> but the management is in my opinion unskilled and

> incompetent. All around BA are organic farms making a

> living selling to the city, yet the devotees on the

> farm in BA can hardly grow too much even with enough

> labour. They make not subsistence let alone

> commercial.

>

> Still, with association from this conference, and the

> enlightening words of Guru, I become more endeared.

>

>

> The point, beyond my example, here though, is that we

> are all compromised to some extent to Maya - the

> material entrapment. Too espouse the highest is

> fantastic, but then not to accept ones compromised

> position and to actively plan how to get out of it is

> foolish. I am a fool, as much as many others.

>

> So, the highest is not to engage in any

> self-gratificatory activity, be it as a karmi school

> teacher, a labourer, an accountant or even a cow

> protector. But we do, all of us to some extenct. I am

> probably the worst on this conference at that.

>

> The last quote of Taraka dasa talked about how

> sukadeva goswami (I think) would not have met the king

> when he was in his kingly state, only when the king

> went looking for enlightentment. So again, it can be

> seen that the Vedic times had the transcendentalsits

> and the materialistically inclined, yet in varnasrama

> dahrma - on a progressive path.

>

> That is why I still think that the whole idea of an

> economically viable farming system within the Western

> sphere is something that is not a total waste of time,

> spiritually speaking. Many devotees hold down jobs in

> the karmi sphere. Bhaktivinod Thakur held down a job,

> yet was still a pure devotee.

>

> I often think, with all my pushing here for a

> compromise to the farming system, will devotees on

> this conference take it on. When it is not the ideal,

> when it is not totally Prabhupadian, Ghandian, will

> they be interested. Sometimes yes, other times no.

> Often I know not who reads me, and of what they care.

>

> Yet, I need a compromise. With the right backing I

> could even do this in BA, of all places in Argentina.

> But you devotees are so reluctant to compromise on

> this issue.

>

> Devotees will sell paintings, do other jobs to make

> the money we "need" to live the lives we live, but

> with the sacred cow you find it so difficult to see it

> in a modern business setting, when the opportunity is

> so clearly a possibility.

>

> Has my logic, my reasoning, my begging, come to so

> little, that I (as in my idea, as you do treat me

> well) am to be shunned because I see doing business

> with protected farm animals as the compromise I need,

> and many others would need.

>

> It must be difficult, as when Prabhupada put men with

> women in the temple he was critisised. So it must be

> difficult to change many years of resistance to a

> commercially-orientated, in opposition to

> subsistence-orientated, farming system; though I

> certainly do not want to preclude the latter.

>

> Personally, I think it sensible to go down both

> tracks, as it would be far preferable to have devotees

> on a commercial Protected Farm, than selling Hong

> Kongers.

>

> These are still my thoughts, and still I find the

> responses from many on the conference to be

> insufficient to the needs of the situation that I and

> the many materially compromised (would) find to your

> answers here. If we can not go the full hog, we need a

> half-way, a progression.

>

> Yours most sincerely,

>

> Mark Chatburn

>

>

> __________

>

> Get your free @.co.uk address at http://mail..co.uk

> or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie

>

[Guest guest]

-

Samba (das) SDG (Planning/Varnasrama) <Samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

mark chatburn <markjon11 >; Cow (Protection and related issues)

<Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Saturday, June 16, 2001 1:18 AM

Re: Le Cow Quote Du Jour # 98 part 2

 

 

> > The point, beyond my example, here though, is that we

> > are all compromised to some extent to Maya - the

> > material entrapment. Too espouse the highest is

> > fantastic, but then not to accept ones compromised

> > position and to actively plan how to get out of it is

> > foolish. I am a fool, as much as many others.

>

> This is a fact, many of us are compromised. That does not change the facts

> regarding the highest philosophy though. The fact is that we have to come

to

> a level of purity before we can go home. It seems fashionable nowadays in

> ISKCON for devotees to sort of assume that whatever we do, Krsna is very

> merciful and at the time of death somehow Krsna or Prabhupada will come to

> us and take us home.

>

> That might happen, but if we *expect* that it will happen, and dont work

on

> ourselves, it might not. If at the end of our lives, we dont really want

> Krsna and His world with all of our hearts, but do have strong desires for

> material life, then Krsna will fulfill whatever our stongest desires are,

he

> wants us to be happy, according to our desires, not necesarily his.

>

Comment:

The stronger we represent the path back to Godhead the less likehood of

having to return again to have another go at it. We must never get into the

mode I have served, I have tasted, I am gaureented - no. We have to become

like little children holding on to the skirt of Srimati Radha, 'save us

mata, don't punish me I'll be good from now on'.

 

> > That is why I still think that the whole idea of an

> > economically viable farming system within the Western

> > sphere is something that is not a total waste of time,

> > spiritually speaking. Many devotees hold down jobs in

> > the karmi sphere. Bhaktivinod Thakur held down a job,

> > yet was still a pure devotee.

>

> In general I agree with your sentiments in this regard, a blind uncle is

> better than none, and to start getting into sustainable, yet commercial

> livlihoods is a step in the right direction, especialy as regards selling

> paintings, which I feel creates very bad habits in devotees, and is not at

> all the kind of livlihood that we should have. My reservation was against

> making a livlihood exclusively cow based, with no safety net for the cows.

> Give a scenario where the cows are always *happy*, and I would say go for

> it. Krsna really does care about the cows being *happy*. For devotees that

> should be the criteria. If we dont care for the cows *happiness* I dont

> think Krsna will be too worried about ours.

 

Comment:

Krishna's cows are not happy now, they are not in as much distress as those

not on Krishna's farms. Back in 1975 at the first Vancover Farm (New

Gokula - the Bridesville Farm) we had about twenty animals, but unfortuantly

B.C, Alberta and the American Northwestern States (Washington, Idaho,

Montana, Oregon and Wyoming) were under a quarentine for "Bluetongue", a

viral disease fatal in sheep and goats (cows only got a fever, some of them

became carriers, but none died). Government inspectors came to take blood

samples, at first he cows crowed along the fence, having been conditioned

by the frequent attention of the visting devotees from the city. But as the

men doned their lab coats and prepared to do their days work, the cows ears

went up and then back and then they turned and ran, their tails high in the

air, they did not stop until a fence blocked their way. Why? They understood

that ultimately these men would kill them, their sweat betrayed them, their

was meat in their blood and there demaneour radiated lack of compassion and

mercy.

 

There is not an ISKCON farm where the cows do not get out, not New Talavan,

not Gita Nagari and not New Vrndavan (these are the ones when I have visited

at which I have helped put in animals), other like Murari have gone a step

further and actually done the deed. I am sure this is applicable across the

board (Vrndavan, Spain and Mayapur come to mind). Why do they get out? They

are not happy not satisfied. Again why? They are not being properly engaged

and their care takers are also morose (for not being properly engaged also)

You may say bad fences or not enough feed. The real reason is that of

engagement. Just look at the animals getting out, they are not thin or abuse

(physical appearance) - but they are mentally absued, muscles without

engagement so they create their own engagement, which because it is born of

ignorance results in distruction and further degradation - some see them as

a burden because of these acts. They are not happy.

>

> I object to notions that say that Prabhupadas ideas cannot work, or are

> impractical, I beleive that these are fully possible, its just that many

> devotees dont care for them.

 

Comment:

Dont care for them or do not want to give up what little comforts they have

just to get a promise of so called benefit in the future.

 

>

> > I often think, with all my pushing here for a

> > compromise to the farming system, will devotees on

> > this conference take it on. When it is not the ideal,

> > when it is not totally Prabhupadian, Ghandian, will

> > they be interested. Sometimes yes, other times no.

> > Often I know not who reads me, and of what they care.

>

> I think it is a mistake to generalise, to lump devotees into one basket. I

> personaly feel that many devotees are actualy pretending, they know what

> they should be, and they pretend to be there for the sake of acceptance,

or

> worse, aggrandisement. As long as no one pushes them too hard to prove

their

> sincerity, the sham pays off, or appears to, except that they are forced

to

> be dishonest, and they hide behind dogma.

>

> What you need to do is actualy find people who mean what they say, and are

> prepared to act on it. Not easy to find such people, and I myself have

felt

> greatly unhappy at not having such association myself. In fact I must

> confess to having been a pretender myself for many years, and it is only

in

> recent years that I have been forced to face up to it, i'm still not cured

> though.

>

> I guess also that you may consider that I am one of those that pushes the

> Prabhupada line; I beleive it wholeheartedly, but I am not living up to it

> either. When it comes to discussions about what should be done, I always

> tend to go for the ideal, but personaly I am trying to reach it as much as

> anyone else.

>

Comment:

I feel that this is slowly changing and conferences like this one (thank you

mother Chaya for putting up withsome of our nonscene), are facilitating this

education, this change of consciousness - the time is coming and it is

picking up momentum.

 

> You are speaking of compromise. I beleive that we need to always be aware

> that we are compromising, until we are able to reach a state where we have

> the ideal. So personaly I would favour plans that recognise that they are

> steps towards a higher goal, rather than ends to themselves. I believe

that

> we will only begin to realise varnasrama once we have made many small

> compromise steps in order to reach the goal.

>

> Maybe it is not possible to reach the ideal, but if we keep it in our

sites,

> and hanker for it, then it might be that Krsna and Prabhupada apear to us

at

> our end, and take us to the ideal, because that is what we hanker for.

>

> So really I think that you should not get so disheartened by the state of

> the devotees. Each is an individual that is being put through a variety of

> tests, and some are failing. But as failure is the pillar of success,

things

> should turn out right in the end. If you can't find what you are looking

for

> then maybe Krsna is testing you! But eventualy Krsna fulfills all our

> desires according to how much we deserve.

 

Comment:

Compromise is acceptable but not the principles, there is scope for

different mentalities and conditions, all are welcomed. Even the asuric, if

he will lay down his sword and attempt to engaged in service to the Supreme.

>

> Personaly I think that our ideas are not that different, and maybe it is

the

> lack of full communication that email allows that has created impressions

of

> each other that are too stark.

>

> Really you have to live your life according to what you beleive in, and at

> the end of the day, you have to do what you feel is right. Don't expect

too

> much cooperation from anyone, unless you have signed a contract with them,

> or know them really well, and I mean *really well*, because talk is easy,

> action is something else.

>

Comment:

Prabhupada's godbrothers were criticizing him before Bhakti Siddhanta, he

told them to stop that, that in the future he (ACBhaktivedanta) would do

everything. See what glorious things he did? Do not be surprised at who

goes, be surprised at who stays.

ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

> I'd like to share some of my experiences for what ever it may be worth. I

> was travelling in areas quite far from any cities. These people were

really

> quite isolated. None had ever seen a westerner. I only saw obvious

instances

> of nutritional problems and diseases in villages closer to the cities

where

> various influences had compelled the villagers to deviate from the

> traditional system. For example, I sometimes saw villages in which goats

or

> chickens were kept. These villagers looked terrible, physically. Mostly, I

> saw clean simple villages full of healthy, well-fed, brite-faced, smiling

> people who were clearly not under any kind of pressure and had no problem

to

> break from their routine for a spiritual program at any time of the day.

> These villages definately depended on cows and oxen for everything. The

> homes and compound walls were all made of cow dung. All cooking was done

> with cow dung. All tilling was done with oxen. All transportation was done

> with oxen. Threshing of grains was done by oxen. Irrigation was done with

> oxen. Crops were all fertilized only with cow dung.

 

Comment:

My experiences also, yes this area I previously mentioned had the added

disadvantage in that it had been denuded of trees, the soil was hard packed

and strewn with many rock outcrops in the addition to having lost some of

the traditions due to the cities close proximity. They depended on their

oxen for everything and were reluctant to introduce these foreign bulls (not

so good at draft as their local type).

>

> Fruit trees of all types grew all around the homes providing cool shade

and

> abundant fruit. The yield of just one of these trees far exceeded the

> ability of even the largest family to consume, so lots of fruit went to

> market, and EVERY family had money, but not much need to spend. Every bit

of

> available land was cultivated and covered with lush, green crops. Even

steep

> slopes were covered with terraces and ingenious, earthen irrigation

systems.

> Wells full of fresh water were everywhere unless there was a river, lake

or

> pond nearby. It seems that almost anywhere you go, you can dig down 10 to

15

> feet and hit water. Even in the most remote countryside, there were always

> wells situated at short intervals along all the roads. While travelling at

> ox-speed, we would encounter a village at a rate of two or three per day;

> roughly three or four hours apart.

 

Comment:

I the past they supported even larger villages and more of them. However, in

that area - the lack of trees had a devastating effect. On the surronding

land and on it production. Neither was the watertable so high, as they were

in the highlands of west India. Wells had to be very deep, there was little

for the fields. As you discribed most of India was more fortunate and I saw

no one who was obviously hungry, rather there was a great abundance as long

as politicians stayed away.

>

> When I arrived in a village, the villagers would all pour out of their

homes

> and come running out of the fields to great us. They would make offerings

of

> all kinds to us and our Gaura-Nitai deities. Everyone would chant with us

> and EVERY SINGLE family would buy a small book for one rupee. I used to go

> door to door with a basket in which there was a framed picture of Gopal

> Krsna. Every householder would fill my basket with all kinds of grains. If

I

> came in the morning or evening, they would all supply fresh milk.(at those

> times I would bring a pot) In village market places, all the vendors would

> load me up with fresh produce of all kinds. The head of the village would

> always come out to receive us and make all kinds of arrangements for our

> comfort. Our oxen were all fed and watered sumptuously and their carts

> loaded with enough hay to feed them for several days. All the prominent

men

> of the village would beg us to take meals at their home where we were also

> fed sumptuously. We always had so much bhoga donated that we would prepare

> feasts enough to feed the entire village and still have weeks worth of

bhoga

> remaining. When we encountered temples, we would donate the excess bhoga

to

> the deities there. In no case did we ever actually ask for anything. Most

of

> the time I did not even have to use the basket. People just approached us

> with offerings. Our carts were loaded mostly with books. We also carried

> Gaura-nitai and their paraph., pots and utensils for cooking and straw

mats

> for sitting and sleeping on and that's about it apart from the one set of

> clothing on our backs. It was great! Although we had practically nothing,

we

> were never in need of anything at any time.

 

Comment:

It was like that in 1996 also and I imagine it is still that way. I think

anyone who thinks he can not live so simply should go and join the party and

actually experience the happiness and more than that try to return home and

institute what they have learned about themselves into their daily

routinees. Even children take easily to austrity because it is the nature of

youth, we just have to remind them to be more aware of their basic needs and

to not over endeavour.

ys, Rohita dasa