They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a prayer

[Guest guest]

"Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK)" wrote:

 

> Dear Prabhu's not to minimise the strength of tone of Hare Krshna dasi's

> message, I wanted to remind everybody that Vrndavana goshalla do not send

> away their bull calves and haven't for a number of years. That said it is

> acknowledged that there is a serious problem of not having significant work

> for the oxen.

>

> There is probably only a few bulls doing any practical work, and there is a

> tremendous mountain to climb to turn it around.

>

> ys syam

 

Syamasundara prabhu,

 

Thanks for your note, and possibly you are correct.

 

The gigantic problem for Vrndavana is that there is no documentation to prove

that they have not given away any bull calves to so-called "congregational

members," etc.

 

To illustrate, here are two hypothetical records which could have been

submitted to Ministry for Cow Protection

 

**************

1998

 

Bhima ox, born 4/1/92, working

 

Dharma ox, born 5/1/96, retired

 

Pandu ox, born 1/2/97, in training

 

 

2000

 

Bhima ox, born 4/1/92, retired

 

Dharma ox, born 5/1/96, retired

 

Bali ox, born 2/10/99, in training

 

*******************

 

When anyone compares these two records it is clear that a new calf, Bali, has

been added. But one ox from the former record, Pandu, is now missing. So you

can ask: What happened to Pandu? Did he die? Was he given away? Such a

young animal -- if he died, why did he die? Was it inadequate care? If he was

given away, why is he not included in the current census, as he must be until

he dies? Is it because he was actually sold to slaughter?

 

So, when there are meticulous records, it is much easier to see what is

happening.

 

Of the three oxen in the old report, only 2 of them are listed in the new

report. 3-2=1 That means one ox is missing.

 

********************

 

Now lets go to another case. For 1998, there is no record of how many oxen

there were. In 2000, there is no record of how many oxen there were -- even

though it was required by ISKCON law.

 

Of an unknown number of oxen in 1998, an unknown number are still there. That

means an unknown number are missing.

 

********************

 

Thus, with no evidence (such as properly completed quarterly cow protection

reports, as *required* by ISKCON law) then Vrndavan goshalla cannot prove that

it has given away no oxen. This certainly casts a significant shadow of doubt

over their ability to protect bull calves. Which means they probably should

not be breeding any more cows until they get things under control and are able

to manage it responsibly.

 

In other words, you are kindly stating that Vrndavan has not given away any

bull calves (since some unspecified point), but without the documentation

required by ISKCON law to support your statement, and given Vrndavana's

outrageous record in the past, on what basis should we believe your kindly

sentiments?

 

I still maintain that unless ISKCON Vrndavana is training the bull calves which

are produced, their ultimate destination will probably be the slaughter house

or death by neglect and insufficient care. Experience has demonstrated that

large-scale breeding which is focussed on milk production means death for bull

calves.

 

 

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhus,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed in a

cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to how

many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla. This

Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years there

has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the names,

numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even recently

there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the goshalla

and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

 

Your sevant,

Chayadevi

 

-

"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and related

issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

prayer

 

 

>

>

> Niscala Devidasi wrote:

>

> > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as such.

> >

> > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The goshalla

members

> > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection. But

they

> > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the cows-

in

> > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris there

show

> > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for the

> > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the temple

> > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla, gives

the

> > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

allows it

> > to continue.

> >

> > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious about

> > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and they use

> > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the ox are

> > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

tractors,

> > they are exemplery in that.

> >

> > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is hoping

that

> > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start to live

> > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him about

> > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced to

breed,

> > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He has

however,

> > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is against

the

> > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much, they may

oust

> > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows. And

the

> > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much trouble.

> > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla for

> > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest to get

> > them to desist.

> >

> > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They are

> > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

rainfall,

> > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow protection,

> > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> >

> > ys, niscala

>

> Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all the work

and

> manages as best he can in a situation where many people are pressuring him

to

> breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection try to

> persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground and

proper

> plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

>

> Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving them away

> outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as rather

> short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before. Sooner or

later

> the temple management will probably become frustrated with the cowherd

when one

> or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the number of

cows

> they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the expansion; 2)

He

> pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He publicly

exposes

> the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion against

> crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense; 5)

They

> become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the cows.

>

> At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone else.

I

> will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head cowherd.

He

> will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that proper

> record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or oxen

will

> disappear at that time.

>

> And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all remain

in

> their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

protection

> and

> their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

>

> Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no firm

plans

> for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting bull

calves

> is against ISKCON law.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

>

[Guest guest]

Niscala Devidasi wrote:

 

> >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as such.

>

> Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The goshalla members

> try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection. But they

> find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the cows- in

> the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris there show

> them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for the

> goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the temple

> president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla, gives the

> brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes, allows it

> to continue.

>

> Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious about

> keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and they use

> very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the ox are

> underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no tractors,

> they are exemplery in that.

>

> Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is hoping that

> the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start to live

> simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him about

> this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced to breed,

> as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He has however,

> cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is against the

> tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much, they may oust

> him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows. And the

> management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much trouble.

> They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla for

> gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest to get

> them to desist.

>

> So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They are

> massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of rainfall,

> and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow protection,

> persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

>

> ys, niscala

 

Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all the work and

manages as best he can in a situation where many people are pressuring him to

breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection try to

persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground and proper

plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

 

Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving them away

outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as rather

short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before. Sooner or later

the temple management will probably become frustrated with the cowherd when one

or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the number of cows

they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the expansion; 2) He

pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He publicly exposes

the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion against

crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense; 5) They

become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the cows.

 

At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone else. I

will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head cowherd. He

will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that proper

record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or oxen will

disappear at that time.

 

And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all remain in

their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow protection

and

their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

 

Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no firm plans

for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting bull calves

is against ISKCON law.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

Alright, indeed seems like you are correct to imply that the Cowherd is also to

blame in this instance.

 

But, I think we'll all agree -- still the temple president, the GBCs and the

most influential spiritual masters of the particular project are also to blame

for allowing and even encouraging ISKCON law to be broken.

 

Narayan Maharaja may break various ISKCON laws -- but that's okay, because he

is

not an ISKCON leader.

 

George W. Bush may break various ISKCON laws -- but that's okay, because he is

not an ISKCON leader, either.

 

But when ISKCON leaders *repeatedly* break ISKCON laws -- then it's not okay:

they should be removed from positions of administrative or spiritual authority

in ISKCON.

 

How can leaders who continue to flagrantly violate ISKCON laws continue to

serve

as legitimate leaders in ISKCON?

 

It seems to me that this is always a bad sign. It was a bad sign when

Kirtanananda did it -- though we tried to overlook it for some time. It was a

bad sign when Harikesa did it -- though we tried to overlook it for some time.

It was a bad sign when Dhanurdar did it -- though we're still trying to

overlook

it.

 

And now, it's a bad sign when the authorities of ISKCON Vrndavan break ISKCON

law.

 

The point is this: It's especially serious when temple authorities condone the

breaking of aspects of ISKCON Law 507 because this is a law about protecting

Lord Krsna's cows.

 

Cows set the baseline of treatment in our society. Even the karmis know that

treatment of animals is an indication of how other members of society will be

treated. Isn't there a George Bernard Shaw quote like that? -- "Society's

treatment of its animals is an indication of howit will treat hukman beings."

 

It's such a common-sensical conclusion. If your group abuses animals, it will

also abuse the weakest of the humans. That's common sense.

 

According to Vedic culture, five groups should be protected: cows, brahmanas,

women, children, old men. We may look at a few highly place swamis in Vrndavan

and conclude that at least the brahmanas are being treated well -- but if the

cows are being exploited and abused, it seems like a sure symptom that women

will be abused, children will be abused, old men will be abused -- and probably

also the less prominent brahmanas, such as the bramacaris and those who don't

have disciples will also be abused at a project where the cows are abused.

 

And that is why the temple presidents, GBC and leading guru's at a place where

cow abuse is prominent should be removed from their positions. They are

disqualified by their hard-hearted mentality, and are sure to hurt many

vulnerable members of their project -- thus bringing infamy to our society and

diminishing the preaching potency of Prabhupada's movement. You don't want to

follow ISKCON law? -- That's fine -- you just should not be an ISKCON leader.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

iscowp wrote:

 

> Dear Prabhus,

>

> PAMHO. AGTSP.

>

> When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed in a

> cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to how

> many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla. This

> Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years there

> has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the names,

> numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even recently

> there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the goshalla

> and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

> highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

> completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

>

> Your sevant,

> Chayadevi

>

> -

> "Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> "Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and related

> issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

> Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

> prayer

>

> >

> >

> > Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> >

> > > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as such.

> > >

> > > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The goshalla

> members

> > > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection. But

> they

> > > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the cows-

> in

> > > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris there

> show

> > > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for the

> > > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the temple

> > > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla, gives

> the

> > > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

> allows it

> > > to continue.

> > >

> > > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious about

> > > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and they use

> > > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the ox are

> > > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

> tractors,

> > > they are exemplery in that.

> > >

> > > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is hoping

> that

> > > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start to live

> > > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him about

> > > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced to

> breed,

> > > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He has

> however,

> > > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is against

> the

> > > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much, they may

> oust

> > > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows. And

> the

> > > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much trouble.

> > > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla for

> > > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest to get

> > > them to desist.

> > >

> > > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They are

> > > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

> rainfall,

> > > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow protection,

> > > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> > >

> > > ys, niscala

> >

> > Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all the work

> and

> > manages as best he can in a situation where many people are pressuring him

> to

> > breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection try to

> > persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground and

> proper

> > plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

> >

> > Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving them away

> > outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as rather

> > short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before. Sooner or

> later

> > the temple management will probably become frustrated with the cowherd

> when one

> > or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the number of

> cows

> > they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the expansion; 2)

> He

> > pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He publicly

> exposes

> > the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion against

> > crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense; 5)

> They

> > become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the cows.

> >

> > At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone else.

> I

> > will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head cowherd.

> He

> > will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that proper

> > record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or oxen

> will

> > disappear at that time.

> >

> > And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all remain

> in

> > their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

> protection

> > and

> > their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

> >

> > Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no firm

> plans

> > for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting bull

> calves

> > is against ISKCON law.

> >

> > your servant,

> >

> > Hare Krsna dasi

> >

> >

 

--

Noma Petroff

Academic Department Coordinator

BOWDOIN COLLEGE

Department of Theater & Dance

9100 College Station

Brunswick ME 04011-8491

 

Phone: (207) 725-3663

FAX: (207) 725-3372

e-mail: npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu

[Guest guest]

Chayadevi wrote:

>

>When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed in a

>cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to how

>many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla.

 

I'd like to explain a few more things about Vrinadavan goshalla, as I was a

member for 3 months. The situation there makes the making of reports very

difficult, which on top of all their problems, is like the straw that breaks

the camels back. These problems are financial (very bad); fighting the

apathy and threatening behaviour of the Vrindavan temple management towards

cow protection, and them cheating from it to make a quick buck; an atrocious

past record of cow neglect; severe climatic difficlty; the fact that every

other goshalla manager has been dismissed due to having fingers in the till;

the loss of public confidence about this, and loss of funds as the scam

filters back to the donors; the fact that the local GBC, refuses to help; a

huge number of animals to maintain, with very little means to do it; a large

amount of criticism for the chief cowherd, because he is the one copping the

blame for the mess made by previous goshalla management, and present ISKCON.

 

This last item it would seem is making him reluctant to make reports. He is

already nervous the ISKCON management may oust him, what to speak of the cow

ministry, if they find out discrepencies, what they could do. And it is

extra work, where he has very little manpower as it is.

 

It is a LOT of extra work, because of the fact that the bulls that haven't

been worked, and the cows that haven't been recently milked, have had their

names, ages and family hisories, forgotten. They made an attempt to

photograh them some years back, but many photos were lost.Also some lost

files on the computer.(Don't forget there is over 250) So we started again

when I was there. But it is a huge endeavour, just to catch the big bulls,

look for identification marks, and try to name them. So when I left they

were going to get eartags, in an effort to do it.It was an additional cost,

but PK wants to do it, so that they know if any disappear. Without eartags,

many look so similar, it will be impossible.

 

Can you imagine the frustration, the goshalla member looking at a bull or

cow, and saying various names that it might be, and the other goshalla

members disagree, and each one takes at least fifteen minutes to catch and

finally agree on the name- and there are over 250?!! Then when you name it,

it merges back into the herd of similar looking onbes, and there is more

disgreement about who you have named? And the goshalla memebers are all

getting grouchy because they have been up since 4 am and this is their rest

hour interrupted? And none speak English?

 

I didn't see any mistreatment there and I spent often spent hours there, but

of course it is possible. But what I don't like is that during the winter

the cows don't have any hay to lie on. There is a stupid arrangement of

stone floored pens, which seems to give them pressure sores when they lie

down. I asked PK about it. Again there is lack of funds for hay.

 

Another massive difficulty they have is no land. It all belongs to ISKCON,

not the cows. And it is very small, so additional purchase of feed costs is

high. But even that land is ISKCON's so it can be taken, if the goshalla

doesn't pay up in milk. Its a really vicious cycle. Unless a massive sum is

invested in it, or as HKDD suggests, all the leaders be replaced with decent

ones, I can't see any way out.

 

So how can all this be explained in a report? All the broken rules come from

what has gone on in the past, the cheating, the excessive breeding, the lack

of purchase of land for the cows, the use of cows for sheer profit, with no

thought for their future protection. You can't fix it even if he hands in a

report, and he knows it. You say we can't help him if he refuses to submit

reports, but how can you help him if he does?

 

Vrindavan is a disaster zone, and I can't see a way out. But PK recently

went to the US to try to set up a business to bring in money for land, as

well as inspire some devotees to collect for it. I think he had some

success. Unles the cows get some land to their name, there is no hope. In

the meantime, practically the only source of income is from milk sales, and

in India, they only milk for 6 months, so therefore this means breeding.

There is practically no donor base, due to the brahmacaris syphoning the

donations first. And past cheating.

 

Presently, if they reduced the milking, the cows would starve. I have seen

the books. So I don't see how submitting reports will help them. That

doesn't mean that other centres shouldn't. Most neglect and abuse can be

avoided, but this Vrindavan overbreeding needs more than a report.

 

your servant Niscala

 

 

 

 

 

This

>Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years there

>has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the names,

>numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even

>recently

>there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the goshalla

>and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

>highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

>completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

>

>Your sevant,

>Chayadevi

>

>-

>"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

>"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and

>related

>issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

>Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

>prayer

>

>

> >

> >

> > Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> >

> > > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as such.

> > >

> > > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The goshalla

>members

> > > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection. But

>they

> > > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the

>cows-

>in

> > > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris there

>show

> > > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for the

> > > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the temple

> > > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla,

>gives

>the

> > > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

>allows it

> > > to continue.

> > >

> > > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious about

> > > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and they

>use

> > > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the ox

>are

> > > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

>tractors,

> > > they are exemplery in that.

> > >

> > > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is hoping

>that

> > > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start to

>live

> > > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him

>about

> > > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced to

>breed,

> > > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He has

>however,

> > > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is against

>the

> > > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much, they

>may

>oust

> > > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows. And

>the

> > > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much

>trouble.

> > > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla for

> > > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest to

>get

> > > them to desist.

> > >

> > > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They are

> > > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

>rainfall,

> > > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow

>protection,

> > > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> > >

> > > ys, niscala

> >

> > Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all the

>work

>and

> > manages as best he can in a situation where many people are pressuring

>him

>to

> > breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection try to

> > persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground and

>proper

> > plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

> >

> > Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving them

>away

> > outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as

>rather

> > short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before. Sooner

>or

>later

> > the temple management will probably become frustrated with the cowherd

>when one

> > or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the number of

>cows

> > they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the expansion;

>2)

>He

> > pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He publicly

>exposes

> > the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion against

> > crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense; 5)

>They

> > become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the cows.

> >

> > At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone

>else.

>I

> > will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head cowherd.

>He

> > will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that

>proper

> > record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or oxen

>will

> > disappear at that time.

> >

> > And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all

>remain

>in

> > their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

>protection

> > and

> > their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

> >

> > Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no firm

>plans

> > for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting bull

>calves

> > is against ISKCON law.

> >

> > your servant,

> >

> > Hare Krsna dasi

> >

> >

>

 

_______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

[Guest guest]

Dear Niscala prabhu and members of this conference,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

If someone is in the shower getting clean, no one can complain. With

allegations and no proof which are shown in FACTS presented in cow reports

there is no way to ascertain that there are efforts being made to rectify.

Your statement, Prem Kishores statement is not enough. How long have we

listened to devotees in positions assure us that everything is all right and

it turns out it is not. The fate of so many of our children is a fine

example of this. I myself listened to some charismatic leader tell me my

children were just fine to find out later they were totally miserable, and

rightly so. Now I ask for facts, not words alone.

 

In your entry you are indicating that it is possible that a cow may be

missing and no one would know about it. That is the point. If you don't know

who your animals are how do you know who is missing or if they are missing?

It gets to be a totally confusing situation. And you keep breeding,. I have

another article that Nirguna prabhu sent me about the trafficking of cows to

slaughter in the UP , Agra area. Thousands of animals daily on their way to

West Bengal. In other words, a cow gets out of the Vrndavana goshalla either

by some unscrupulous worker or by just not knowing your cows, be assured

that the destiny of that cow will most likely be slaughter. On top of that

PETA has exposed the most inhumane treatment of these cows. In a country

where there are many people who honor the cow still, there is yet a very

real demoniac force destroying the cow in untold numbers in horrific ways.

 

In your entry you also state that Prem Kishore prabhu has lost a lot of his

donors. In any good business organization records are kept and made

avaialable to the stock owners as well as general public. By making the

records available, confidence is built in the stock holders that the

organzation is competent. The cow reports are not just internal bookeeping

but they show accountability and can be shown to any donor as proof that the

gosahlla is organized and knows their cows and how they are dealing with the

obstacles in thier path.

 

This Ministry can be a united voice for the cowherds worldwide to put

pressure on leaders to do something to help the situation. Just like a labor

union. All the little workers who just get stepped on, when united are a

force to be dealt with. This Ministry is increasing in influence every day.

The way that happens is by uniting the devotees who care and going forth

with a united voice. We can not do that when the cowherds themselves do not

give facts about their goshallas. A labor union has to have the facts of

what is going on with its workers in order to cover their backs when going

up

against the big guys.

 

Unfortunately trust is lacking in ISKCON as we all know. So many devotees

have been mistreated and one of the results is not to trust anyone,

especially anyone in a position. The irony is that my husband and I are the

least desirous of having any position. We are very happy to just stay on our

land and take care of our cows and gardens. We have a life. We don't need

the subtle sex life of power and position. We didn't ask for this position.

We did accept it and now what would have been a simple life has become quite

complex. Since we are in our middle fifties now, married 28 years as

devotees, been in the movement 32 years, we know that Krsna wants us to do

our best and that somehow He has a plan by putting us in this position.

Unfortunately this Ministry has no funding. Balabhadra works an 8 hour night

job to pay our personal bills and works on our land during the day. We have

little help. I do all the paper work.

 

We understand the lack of faith that we can do anything. But the logic is

there. Unite the voices of the cowherds and lobby. There are already many

strong devotees who have taken an interest in this Ministry's activities. We

are blessed with the association of Syamasundara prabhu, Rohita prabhu,

Pancaratna prabhu, Hare Krsna Prabhu, and other members of this conference

who have been coming forth. Even in the GBC level we actually have

supporters who would unite with us if we had a strong lobby plan.

 

This Ministry was formed in 1999, not too long ago. Since then the Minimum

Cow Protection Standards have been written by the members of this conference

and made ISKCON Law 507. What other service in ISKCON has standards?

Possibly the Deity Ministry. This was quite revolutionary. A cow report form

has been revised and revised so that now it is quite simple to fill out if

the goshalla has any record keeping. We have been told that many farms are

now breeding carefully, some of the cow reports show us that by the facts.

Here in the USA everyone is very careful about this. In other words progress

has been made in only 2 years without money and much help.

 

Now it is time to organize the voice of the cowherds. I have always believed

that no one person has the answers, that by joining our energies together

the answers will come. That is how we did the Standards. I for one do not

claim to know how the voice of the cowherds can be formed. The cow reports

have been the beginning. But the lack of trust in any ISKCON titled agency

is there.

 

My heart goes out to all the young devotees who sincerely want to do this

service but are totally frustrated because it offers no viable means of

livelihood that they can implement. My heart goes out to all the cows born

in

ISKCON that do not have lifetime protection for themselves or their progeny.

I have respect for the members of this conference and I request that

suggestions be made as to how we can organize a united voice. One stick can

be broken, many sticks together can not be broken. Srila Prabhupada said

near the end of his life, you will show your love for me by how you

cooperate with one another.

 

Your servant,

Chayadevi

 

 

..

-

"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

"Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:33 AM

Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

prayer

 

 

>

>

> Chayadevi wrote:

> >

> >When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed in

a

> >cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to how

> >many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla.

>

> I'd like to explain a few more things about Vrinadavan goshalla, as I was

a

> member for 3 months. The situation there makes the making of reports very

> difficult, which on top of all their problems, is like the straw that

breaks

> the camels back. These problems are financial (very bad); fighting the

> apathy and threatening behaviour of the Vrindavan temple management

towards

> cow protection, and them cheating from it to make a quick buck; an

atrocious

> past record of cow neglect; severe climatic difficlty; the fact that every

> other goshalla manager has been dismissed due to having fingers in the

till;

> the loss of public confidence about this, and loss of funds as the scam

> filters back to the donors; the fact that the local GBC, refuses to help;

a

> huge number of animals to maintain, with very little means to do it; a

large

> amount of criticism for the chief cowherd, because he is the one copping

the

> blame for the mess made by previous goshalla management, and present

ISKCON.

>

> This last item it would seem is making him reluctant to make reports. He

is

> already nervous the ISKCON management may oust him, what to speak of the

cow

> ministry, if they find out discrepencies, what they could do. And it is

> extra work, where he has very little manpower as it is.

>

> It is a LOT of extra work, because of the fact that the bulls that haven't

> been worked, and the cows that haven't been recently milked, have had

their

> names, ages and family hisories, forgotten. They made an attempt to

> photograh them some years back, but many photos were lost.Also some lost

> files on the computer.(Don't forget there is over 250) So we started again

> when I was there. But it is a huge endeavour, just to catch the big bulls,

> look for identification marks, and try to name them. So when I left they

> were going to get eartags, in an effort to do it.It was an additional

cost,

> but PK wants to do it, so that they know if any disappear. Without

eartags,

> many look so similar, it will be impossible.

>

> Can you imagine the frustration, the goshalla member looking at a bull or

> cow, and saying various names that it might be, and the other goshalla

> members disagree, and each one takes at least fifteen minutes to catch and

> finally agree on the name- and there are over 250?!! Then when you name

it,

> it merges back into the herd of similar looking onbes, and there is more

> disgreement about who you have named? And the goshalla memebers are all

> getting grouchy because they have been up since 4 am and this is their

rest

> hour interrupted? And none speak English?

>

> I didn't see any mistreatment there and I spent often spent hours there,

but

> of course it is possible. But what I don't like is that during the winter

> the cows don't have any hay to lie on. There is a stupid arrangement of

> stone floored pens, which seems to give them pressure sores when they lie

> down. I asked PK about it. Again there is lack of funds for hay.

>

> Another massive difficulty they have is no land. It all belongs to ISKCON,

> not the cows. And it is very small, so additional purchase of feed costs

is

> high. But even that land is ISKCON's so it can be taken, if the goshalla

> doesn't pay up in milk. Its a really vicious cycle. Unless a massive sum

is

> invested in it, or as HKDD suggests, all the leaders be replaced with

decent

> ones, I can't see any way out.

>

> So how can all this be explained in a report? All the broken rules come

from

> what has gone on in the past, the cheating, the excessive breeding, the

lack

> of purchase of land for the cows, the use of cows for sheer profit, with

no

> thought for their future protection. You can't fix it even if he hands in

a

> report, and he knows it. You say we can't help him if he refuses to

submit

> reports, but how can you help him if he does?

>

> Vrindavan is a disaster zone, and I can't see a way out. But PK recently

> went to the US to try to set up a business to bring in money for land, as

> well as inspire some devotees to collect for it. I think he had some

> success. Unles the cows get some land to their name, there is no hope. In

> the meantime, practically the only source of income is from milk sales,

and

> in India, they only milk for 6 months, so therefore this means breeding.

> There is practically no donor base, due to the brahmacaris syphoning the

> donations first. And past cheating.

>

> Presently, if they reduced the milking, the cows would starve. I have

seen

> the books. So I don't see how submitting reports will help them. That

> doesn't mean that other centres shouldn't. Most neglect and abuse can be

> avoided, but this Vrindavan overbreeding needs more than a report.

>

> your servant Niscala

>

>

>

>

>

> This

> >Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years there

> >has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the

names,

> >numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even

> >recently

> >there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the

goshalla

> >and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

> >highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

> >completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

> >

> >Your sevant,

> >Chayadevi

> >

> >-

> >"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> >"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and

> >related

> >issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> >Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

> >Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

> >prayer

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> > >

> > > > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as

such.

> > > >

> > > > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The goshalla

> >members

> > > > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection.

But

> >they

> > > > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the

> >cows-

> >in

> > > > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris

there

> >show

> > > > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for the

> > > > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the

temple

> > > > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla,

> >gives

> >the

> > > > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

> >allows it

> > > > to continue.

> > > >

> > > > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious

about

> > > > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and they

> >use

> > > > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the ox

> >are

> > > > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

> >tractors,

> > > > they are exemplery in that.

> > > >

> > > > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is

hoping

> >that

> > > > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start to

> >live

> > > > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him

> >about

> > > > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced to

> >breed,

> > > > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He has

> >however,

> > > > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is

against

> >the

> > > > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much, they

> >may

> >oust

> > > > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows.

And

> >the

> > > > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much

> >trouble.

> > > > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla

for

> > > > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest to

> >get

> > > > them to desist.

> > > >

> > > > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They

are

> > > > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

> >rainfall,

> > > > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow

> >protection,

> > > > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> > > >

> > > > ys, niscala

> > >

> > > Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all the

> >work

> >and

> > > manages as best he can in a situation where many people are pressuring

> >him

> >to

> > > breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection try

to

> > > persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground and

> >proper

> > > plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

> > >

> > > Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving them

> >away

> > > outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as

> >rather

> > > short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before. Sooner

> >or

> >later

> > > the temple management will probably become frustrated with the cowherd

> >when one

> > > or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the number

of

> >cows

> > > they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the expansion;

> >2)

> >He

> > > pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He publicly

> >exposes

> > > the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion

against

> > > crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense;

5)

> >They

> > > become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the

cows.

> > >

> > > At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone

> >else.

> >I

> > > will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head

cowherd.

> >He

> > > will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that

> >proper

> > > record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or oxen

> >will

> > > disappear at that time.

> > >

> > > And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all

> >remain

> >in

> > > their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

> >protection

> > > and

> > > their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

> > >

> > > Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no

firm

> >plans

> > > for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting

bull

> >calves

> > > is against ISKCON law.

> > >

> > > your servant,

> > >

> > > Hare Krsna dasi

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Chayadevi,

 

Just letting you know that I was speaking from what I perceive to be Prem

Kishore's point of view, from my talks with him. I know everything you've

said is true and couldn't agree with you more, with every point you made.

 

But I think there will be reports once the eartagging is done, and that was

going to be next on the list of things to do when they get funds. Without

eartagging, its extremely difficult, as I explained. It could be the reason

for the lack of reports.

 

It was in consultation with PK that I filled in the 2nd half of the cow

report which I sent to you, earlier in the year. So he's not against

reports. I just don't think he sees the potential of the ministry to help

him.

 

But what do you do in a situation, where you have a very large herd and no

land that is your own, and you need to breed to produce milk to sell so they

can be fed?

 

Also so you can appease the temple management or your land may be lost and

yourself thrown out? If any bad feedback filters to the Vrindavan management

and it is traced to him, this could very likely be the result.

 

Its like treading on eggshells and trying not to break them.

 

your servant Niscala

 

 

>"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>,

> Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>, "Cow (Protection and

>related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

>prayer

>Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:06 -0400

>

>Dear Niscala prabhu and members of this conference,

>

>PAMHO. AGTSP.

>

>If someone is in the shower getting clean, no one can complain. With

>allegations and no proof which are shown in FACTS presented in cow reports

>there is no way to ascertain that there are efforts being made to rectify.

>Your statement, Prem Kishores statement is not enough. How long have we

>listened to devotees in positions assure us that everything is all right

>and

>it turns out it is not. The fate of so many of our children is a fine

>example of this. I myself listened to some charismatic leader tell me my

>children were just fine to find out later they were totally miserable, and

>rightly so. Now I ask for facts, not words alone.

>

>In your entry you are indicating that it is possible that a cow may be

>missing and no one would know about it. That is the point. If you don't

>know

>who your animals are how do you know who is missing or if they are missing?

>It gets to be a totally confusing situation. And you keep breeding,. I

>have

>another article that Nirguna prabhu sent me about the trafficking of cows

>to

>slaughter in the UP , Agra area. Thousands of animals daily on their way to

>West Bengal. In other words, a cow gets out of the Vrndavana goshalla

>either

>by some unscrupulous worker or by just not knowing your cows, be assured

>that the destiny of that cow will most likely be slaughter. On top of that

>PETA has exposed the most inhumane treatment of these cows. In a country

>where there are many people who honor the cow still, there is yet a very

>real demoniac force destroying the cow in untold numbers in horrific ways.

>

>In your entry you also state that Prem Kishore prabhu has lost a lot of his

>donors. In any good business organization records are kept and made

>avaialable to the stock owners as well as general public. By making the

>records available, confidence is built in the stock holders that the

>organzation is competent. The cow reports are not just internal bookeeping

>but they show accountability and can be shown to any donor as proof that

>the

>gosahlla is organized and knows their cows and how they are dealing with

>the

>obstacles in thier path.

>

>This Ministry can be a united voice for the cowherds worldwide to put

>pressure on leaders to do something to help the situation. Just like a

>labor

>union. All the little workers who just get stepped on, when united are a

>force to be dealt with. This Ministry is increasing in influence every

>day.

>The way that happens is by uniting the devotees who care and going forth

>with a united voice. We can not do that when the cowherds themselves do not

>give facts about their goshallas. A labor union has to have the facts of

>what is going on with its workers in order to cover their backs when going

>up

>against the big guys.

>

>Unfortunately trust is lacking in ISKCON as we all know. So many devotees

>have been mistreated and one of the results is not to trust anyone,

>especially anyone in a position. The irony is that my husband and I are the

>least desirous of having any position. We are very happy to just stay on

>our

>land and take care of our cows and gardens. We have a life. We don't need

>the subtle sex life of power and position. We didn't ask for this position.

>We did accept it and now what would have been a simple life has become

>quite

>complex. Since we are in our middle fifties now, married 28 years as

>devotees, been in the movement 32 years, we know that Krsna wants us to do

>our best and that somehow He has a plan by putting us in this position.

>Unfortunately this Ministry has no funding. Balabhadra works an 8 hour

>night

>job to pay our personal bills and works on our land during the day. We have

>little help. I do all the paper work.

>

>We understand the lack of faith that we can do anything. But the logic is

>there. Unite the voices of the cowherds and lobby. There are already many

>strong devotees who have taken an interest in this Ministry's activities.

>We

>are blessed with the association of Syamasundara prabhu, Rohita prabhu,

>Pancaratna prabhu, Hare Krsna Prabhu, and other members of this conference

>who have been coming forth. Even in the GBC level we actually have

>supporters who would unite with us if we had a strong lobby plan.

>

>This Ministry was formed in 1999, not too long ago. Since then the Minimum

>Cow Protection Standards have been written by the members of this

>conference

>and made ISKCON Law 507. What other service in ISKCON has standards?

>Possibly the Deity Ministry. This was quite revolutionary. A cow report

>form

>has been revised and revised so that now it is quite simple to fill out if

>the goshalla has any record keeping. We have been told that many farms are

>now breeding carefully, some of the cow reports show us that by the facts.

>Here in the USA everyone is very careful about this. In other words

>progress

>has been made in only 2 years without money and much help.

>

>Now it is time to organize the voice of the cowherds. I have always

>believed

>that no one person has the answers, that by joining our energies together

>the answers will come. That is how we did the Standards. I for one do not

>claim to know how the voice of the cowherds can be formed. The cow reports

>have been the beginning. But the lack of trust in any ISKCON titled agency

>is there.

>

>My heart goes out to all the young devotees who sincerely want to do this

>service but are totally frustrated because it offers no viable means of

>livelihood that they can implement. My heart goes out to all the cows born

>in

>ISKCON that do not have lifetime protection for themselves or their

>progeny.

>I have respect for the members of this conference and I request that

>suggestions be made as to how we can organize a united voice. One stick can

>be broken, many sticks together can not be broken. Srila Prabhupada said

>near the end of his life, you will show your love for me by how you

>cooperate with one another.

>

>Your servant,

>Chayadevi

>

>

>.

>-

>"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

>"Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

>Wednesday, July 04, 2001 6:33 AM

>Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

>prayer

>

>

> >

> >

> > Chayadevi wrote:

> > >

> > >When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed

>in

>a

> > >cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to

>how

> > >many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla.

> >

> > I'd like to explain a few more things about Vrinadavan goshalla, as I

>was

>a

> > member for 3 months. The situation there makes the making of reports

>very

> > difficult, which on top of all their problems, is like the straw that

>breaks

> > the camels back. These problems are financial (very bad); fighting the

> > apathy and threatening behaviour of the Vrindavan temple management

>towards

> > cow protection, and them cheating from it to make a quick buck; an

>atrocious

> > past record of cow neglect; severe climatic difficlty; the fact that

>every

> > other goshalla manager has been dismissed due to having fingers in the

>till;

> > the loss of public confidence about this, and loss of funds as the scam

> > filters back to the donors; the fact that the local GBC, refuses to

>help;

>a

> > huge number of animals to maintain, with very little means to do it; a

>large

> > amount of criticism for the chief cowherd, because he is the one copping

>the

> > blame for the mess made by previous goshalla management, and present

>ISKCON.

> >

> > This last item it would seem is making him reluctant to make reports. He

>is

> > already nervous the ISKCON management may oust him, what to speak of the

>cow

> > ministry, if they find out discrepencies, what they could do. And it is

> > extra work, where he has very little manpower as it is.

> >

> > It is a LOT of extra work, because of the fact that the bulls that

>haven't

> > been worked, and the cows that haven't been recently milked, have had

>their

> > names, ages and family hisories, forgotten. They made an attempt to

> > photograh them some years back, but many photos were lost.Also some lost

> > files on the computer.(Don't forget there is over 250) So we started

>again

> > when I was there. But it is a huge endeavour, just to catch the big

>bulls,

> > look for identification marks, and try to name them. So when I left they

> > were going to get eartags, in an effort to do it.It was an additional

>cost,

> > but PK wants to do it, so that they know if any disappear. Without

>eartags,

> > many look so similar, it will be impossible.

> >

> > Can you imagine the frustration, the goshalla member looking at a bull

>or

> > cow, and saying various names that it might be, and the other goshalla

> > members disagree, and each one takes at least fifteen minutes to catch

>and

> > finally agree on the name- and there are over 250?!! Then when you name

>it,

> > it merges back into the herd of similar looking onbes, and there is more

> > disgreement about who you have named? And the goshalla memebers are all

> > getting grouchy because they have been up since 4 am and this is their

>rest

> > hour interrupted? And none speak English?

> >

> > I didn't see any mistreatment there and I spent often spent hours there,

>but

> > of course it is possible. But what I don't like is that during the

>winter

> > the cows don't have any hay to lie on. There is a stupid arrangement of

> > stone floored pens, which seems to give them pressure sores when they

>lie

> > down. I asked PK about it. Again there is lack of funds for hay.

> >

> > Another massive difficulty they have is no land. It all belongs to

>ISKCON,

> > not the cows. And it is very small, so additional purchase of feed costs

>is

> > high. But even that land is ISKCON's so it can be taken, if the goshalla

> > doesn't pay up in milk. Its a really vicious cycle. Unless a massive sum

>is

> > invested in it, or as HKDD suggests, all the leaders be replaced with

>decent

> > ones, I can't see any way out.

> >

> > So how can all this be explained in a report? All the broken rules come

>from

> > what has gone on in the past, the cheating, the excessive breeding, the

>lack

> > of purchase of land for the cows, the use of cows for sheer profit, with

>no

> > thought for their future protection. You can't fix it even if he hands

>in

>a

> > report, and he knows it. You say we can't help him if he refuses to

>submit

> > reports, but how can you help him if he does?

> >

> > Vrindavan is a disaster zone, and I can't see a way out. But PK recently

> > went to the US to try to set up a business to bring in money for land,

>as

> > well as inspire some devotees to collect for it. I think he had some

> > success. Unles the cows get some land to their name, there is no hope.

>In

> > the meantime, practically the only source of income is from milk sales,

>and

> > in India, they only milk for 6 months, so therefore this means breeding.

> > There is practically no donor base, due to the brahmacaris syphoning the

> > donations first. And past cheating.

> >

> > Presently, if they reduced the milking, the cows would starve. I have

>seen

> > the books. So I don't see how submitting reports will help them. That

> > doesn't mean that other centres shouldn't. Most neglect and abuse can be

> > avoided, but this Vrindavan overbreeding needs more than a report.

> >

> > your servant Niscala

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > This

> > >Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years

>there

> > >has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the

>names,

> > >numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even

> > >recently

> > >there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the

>goshalla

> > >and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

> > >highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

> > >completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

> > >

> > >Your sevant,

> > >Chayadevi

> > >

> > >-

> > >"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> > >"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and

> > >related

> > >issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > >Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

> > >Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

> > >prayer

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as

>such.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The

>goshalla

> > >members

> > > > > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection.

>But

> > >they

> > > > > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the

> > >cows-

> > >in

> > > > > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris

>there

> > >show

> > > > > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for

>the

> > > > > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the

>temple

> > > > > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla,

> > >gives

> > >the

> > > > > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

> > >allows it

> > > > > to continue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious

>about

> > > > > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and

>they

> > >use

> > > > > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the

>ox

> > >are

> > > > > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

> > >tractors,

> > > > > they are exemplery in that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is

>hoping

> > >that

> > > > > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start

>to

> > >live

> > > > > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him

> > >about

> > > > > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced

>to

> > >breed,

> > > > > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He

>has

> > >however,

> > > > > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is

>against

> > >the

> > > > > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much,

>they

> > >may

> > >oust

> > > > > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows.

>And

> > >the

> > > > > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much

> > >trouble.

> > > > > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla

>for

> > > > > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest

>to

> > >get

> > > > > them to desist.

> > > > >

> > > > > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They

>are

> > > > > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

> > >rainfall,

> > > > > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow

> > >protection,

> > > > > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> > > > >

> > > > > ys, niscala

> > > >

> > > > Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all

>the

> > >work

> > >and

> > > > manages as best he can in a situation where many people are

>pressuring

> > >him

> > >to

> > > > breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection

>try

>to

> > > > persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground

>and

> > >proper

> > > > plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

> > > >

> > > > Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving

>them

> > >away

> > > > outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as

> > >rather

> > > > short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before.

>Sooner

> > >or

> > >later

> > > > the temple management will probably become frustrated with the

>cowherd

> > >when one

> > > > or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the

>number

>of

> > >cows

> > > > they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the

>expansion;

> > >2)

> > >He

> > > > pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He

>publicly

> > >exposes

> > > > the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion

>against

> > > > crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense;

>5)

> > >They

> > > > become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the

>cows.

> > > >

> > > > At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone

> > >else.

> > >I

> > > > will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head

>cowherd.

> > >He

> > > > will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that

> > >proper

> > > > record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or

>oxen

> > >will

> > > > disappear at that time.

> > > >

> > > > And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all

> > >remain

> > >in

> > > > their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

> > >protection

> > > > and

> > > > their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

> > > >

> > > > Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no

>firm

> > >plans

> > > > for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting

>bull

> > >calves

> > > > is against ISKCON law.

> > > >

> > > > your servant,

> > > >

> > > > Hare Krsna dasi

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>_______________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com.

> >

>

>

 

_______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

[Guest guest]

It seems like the Ministry for Cow Protection should probably forward Niscala's

letter to the GBC steering committee.

 

If the GBC steering committee cannot get some meaningful action going by

September 15 [meaningful action being a stop breeding order, funds for feed,

funds for personnel and funds for grazing land], it's time to post letters on

Chakra and VNN -- and to contact activists in PETA.

 

I think the only weapon that we have to protect the cows is the threat of bad

publicity. This is actually the only thing that activates the GBC on cow

protection issues.

 

In particular, as of September 15, agencies like PETA, Time Magazine, Newsweek,

60 Minutes and New York Times should be encouraged to investigate the ISKCON's

cow protection fund-raising scam in Vrndavana. The thing is -- please correct

me if I am mistaken -- ISKCON Vrndavana solicits goshalla funds from all around

the world, not just in Vrndavana. They advertise in the Hare Krishna World --

thus, congregational members from the New York Temple, the Chicago Temple, the

New Ramana Reti Temple, etc., are all being duped into making contributions for

ISKCON Vrndavana's goshalla -- while the condition of the cows is becoming

progressively more miserable as the goshalla becomes more and more crowded, or

the cows are eligible to be kidnapped when they are turned lose for the day.

 

(Just an aside, did anyone ever read in Krsna book about how Krsna and the

cowherd boys used to turn all the cows loose in the morning, allowing them to

rove around with no one to protect and supervise them? No? I didn't either.

Krsna's example was that the cows were always watched over, especially while

grazing during the day. Thus when a demon like the Agasura demon tried to

abuse

them, Krsna was right there to fight the demon. But who is there to fight

poachers for ISKCON Vrndavana's cows?)

 

However, the record keeping is so incredibly sloppy there, that the temple

cannot even say how much funds have been donated to the Goshalla, or what has

happened to them -- even when required to do so by ISKCON's laws, and when

repeatedly urged to do so by ISKCON's Ministry of Cow Protection and

Agriculture.

 

If ISKCON does not investigate and crack down on the law-breaker leaders of

ISKCON Vrndavana, then their shady dealings are sure to pollute ISKCON's name.

 

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasil

 

 

 

From

 

Niscala Devidasi wrote:

 

> Chayadevi wrote:

> >

> >When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed in a

> >cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to how

> >many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla.

>

> I'd like to explain a few more things about Vrinadavan goshalla, as I was a

> member for 3 months. The situation there makes the making of reports very

> difficult, which on top of all their problems, is like the straw that breaks

> the camels back. These problems are financial (very bad); fighting the

> apathy and threatening behaviour of the Vrindavan temple management towards

> cow protection, and them cheating from it to make a quick buck; an atrocious

> past record of cow neglect; severe climatic difficlty; the fact that every

> other goshalla manager has been dismissed due to having fingers in the till;

> the loss of public confidence about this, and loss of funds as the scam

> filters back to the donors; the fact that the local GBC, refuses to help; a

> huge number of animals to maintain, with very little means to do it; a large

> amount of criticism for the chief cowherd, because he is the one copping the

> blame for the mess made by previous goshalla management, and present ISKCON.

>

> This last item it would seem is making him reluctant to make reports. He is

> already nervous the ISKCON management may oust him, what to speak of the cow

> ministry, if they find out discrepencies, what they could do. And it is

> extra work, where he has very little manpower as it is.

>

> It is a LOT of extra work, because of the fact that the bulls that haven't

> been worked, and the cows that haven't been recently milked, have had their

> names, ages and family hisories, forgotten. They made an attempt to

> photograh them some years back, but many photos were lost.Also some lost

> files on the computer.(Don't forget there is over 250) So we started again

> when I was there. But it is a huge endeavour, just to catch the big bulls,

> look for identification marks, and try to name them. So when I left they

> were going to get eartags, in an effort to do it.It was an additional cost,

> but PK wants to do it, so that they know if any disappear. Without eartags,

> many look so similar, it will be impossible.

>

> Can you imagine the frustration, the goshalla member looking at a bull or

> cow, and saying various names that it might be, and the other goshalla

> members disagree, and each one takes at least fifteen minutes to catch and

> finally agree on the name- and there are over 250?!! Then when you name it,

> it merges back into the herd of similar looking onbes, and there is more

> disgreement about who you have named? And the goshalla memebers are all

> getting grouchy because they have been up since 4 am and this is their rest

> hour interrupted? And none speak English?

>

> I didn't see any mistreatment there and I spent often spent hours there, but

> of course it is possible. But what I don't like is that during the winter

> the cows don't have any hay to lie on. There is a stupid arrangement of

> stone floored pens, which seems to give them pressure sores when they lie

> down. I asked PK about it. Again there is lack of funds for hay.

>

> Another massive difficulty they have is no land. It all belongs to ISKCON,

> not the cows. And it is very small, so additional purchase of feed costs is

> high. But even that land is ISKCON's so it can be taken, if the goshalla

> doesn't pay up in milk. Its a really vicious cycle. Unless a massive sum is

> invested in it, or as HKDD suggests, all the leaders be replaced with decent

> ones, I can't see any way out.

>

> So how can all this be explained in a report? All the broken rules come from

> what has gone on in the past, the cheating, the excessive breeding, the lack

> of purchase of land for the cows, the use of cows for sheer profit, with no

> thought for their future protection. You can't fix it even if he hands in a

> report, and he knows it. You say we can't help him if he refuses to submit

> reports, but how can you help him if he does?

>

> Vrindavan is a disaster zone, and I can't see a way out. But PK recently

> went to the US to try to set up a business to bring in money for land, as

> well as inspire some devotees to collect for it. I think he had some

> success. Unles the cows get some land to their name, there is no hope. In

> the meantime, practically the only source of income is from milk sales, and

> in India, they only milk for 6 months, so therefore this means breeding.

> There is practically no donor base, due to the brahmacaris syphoning the

> donations first. And past cheating.

>

> Presently, if they reduced the milking, the cows would starve. I have seen

> the books. So I don't see how submitting reports will help them. That

> doesn't mean that other centres shouldn't. Most neglect and abuse can be

> avoided, but this Vrindavan overbreeding needs more than a report.

>

> your servant Niscala

>

> This

> >Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years there

> >has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the names,

> >numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even

> >recently

> >there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the goshalla

> >and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

> >highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

> >completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

> >

> >Your sevant,

> >Chayadevi

> >

> >-

> >"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> >"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and

> >related

> >issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> >Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

> >Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

> >prayer

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> > >

> > > > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as such.

> > > >

> > > > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The goshalla

> >members

> > > > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection. But

> >they

> > > > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the

> >cows-

> >in

> > > > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris there

> >show

> > > > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for the

> > > > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the temple

> > > > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla,

> >gives

> >the

> > > > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

> >allows it

> > > > to continue.

> > > >

> > > > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious about

> > > > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and they

> >use

> > > > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the ox

> >are

> > > > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

> >tractors,

> > > > they are exemplery in that.

> > > >

> > > > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is hoping

> >that

> > > > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start to

> >live

> > > > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him

> >about

> > > > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced to

> >breed,

> > > > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He has

> >however,

> > > > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is against

> >the

> > > > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much, they

> >may

> >oust

> > > > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows. And

> >the

> > > > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much

> >trouble.

> > > > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla for

> > > > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest to

> >get

> > > > them to desist.

> > > >

> > > > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They are

> > > > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

> >rainfall,

> > > > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow

> >protection,

> > > > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> > > >

> > > > ys, niscala

> > >

> > > Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all the

> >work

> >and

> > > manages as best he can in a situation where many people are pressuring

> >him

> >to

> > > breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection try to

> > > persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground and

> >proper

> > > plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

> > >

> > > Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving them

> >away

> > > outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as

> >rather

> > > short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before. Sooner

> >or

> >later

> > > the temple management will probably become frustrated with the cowherd

> >when one

> > > or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the number of

> >cows

> > > they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the expansion;

> >2)

> >He

> > > pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He publicly

> >exposes

> > > the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion against

> > > crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense; 5)

> >They

> > > become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the cows.

> > >

> > > At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone

> >else.

> >I

> > > will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head cowherd.

> >He

> > > will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that

> >proper

> > > record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or oxen

> >will

> > > disappear at that time.

> > >

> > > And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all

> >remain

> >in

> > > their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

> >protection

> > > and

> > > their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

> > >

> > > Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no firm

> >plans

> > > for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting bull

> >calves

> > > is against ISKCON law.

> > >

> > > your servant,

> > >

> > > Hare Krsna dasi

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

 

--

Noma Petroff

Academic Department Coordinator

BOWDOIN COLLEGE

Department of Theater & Dance

9100 College Station

Brunswick ME 04011-8491

 

Phone: (207) 725-3663

FAX: (207) 725-3372

e-mail: npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu

[Guest guest]

"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

 

> This Ministry was formed in 1999, not too long ago.

 

Just for the record, I believe that the GBC endorsed the creation of the

Ministry for Cow Protection and Agriculture in February 1998.

 

 

> Since then the Minimum

> Cow Protection Standards have been written by the members of this conference

> and made ISKCON Law 507. What other service in ISKCON has standards?

> Possibly the Deity Ministry. This was quite revolutionary. A cow report form

> has been revised and revised so that now it is quite simple to fill out if

> the goshalla has any record keeping. We have been told that many farms are

> now breeding carefully, some of the cow reports show us that by the facts.

> Here in the USA everyone is very careful about this. In other words progress

> has been made in only 2 years without money and much help.

>

> Now it is time to organize the voice of the cowherds. I have always believed

> that no one person has the answers, that by joining our energies together

> the answers will come. That is how we did the Standards. I for one do not

> claim to know how the voice of the cowherds can be formed. The cow reports

> have been the beginning. But the lack of trust in any ISKCON titled agency

> is there.

 

Yes, it is amazing what the Ministry has been able to do with no funding. You

kindly credit everyone else, but the fact is that without Balabhadra and Chaya

we would not have pushed this thing through to completion. It is a great

credit

to the both of you.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

HKDD wrote:

>

>In particular, as of September 15, agencies like PETA, Time Magazine,

>Newsweek,

>60 Minutes and New York Times should be encouraged to investigate the

>ISKCON's

>cow protection fund-raising scam in Vrndavana. The thing is -- please

>correct

>me if I am mistaken -- ISKCON Vrndavana solicits goshalla funds from all

>around

>the world, not just in Vrndavana. They advertise in the Hare Krishna World

>--

>thus, congregational members from the New York Temple, the Chicago Temple,

>the

>New Ramana Reti Temple, etc., are all being duped into making contributions

>for

>ISKCON Vrndavana's goshalla -- while the condition of the cows is becoming

>progressively more miserable as the goshalla becomes more and more crowded,

>or

>the cows are eligible to be kidnapped when they are turned lose for the

>day.

 

It is very important, very very important to find out first whether it is

the goshalla or the ISKCON Vrindavan managaement that is making these

advertisements. If it is the goshalla, it is no dupe, but such funds are

needed desperately or the cows will starve and go without medical treatment.

 

They have recently expanded the barn size. So the funds are being used to

reduce crowding.

 

But even if it is the ISKCON Vrindavan making these advertisements, which I

doubt, as they'd get too much flack from the goshalla, but even then, if we

make bad publicity then the donors that make their contributions to the

actual goshalla, will stop their donations and the cows will starve. There

are over 250 of them, with no land of their own, and only a bit of ISKCON

land, so the donor base is absolutely necessary.

 

Please be separate in your identification of the culprits. The goshall is

for the cows, the ISKCON management are against or at least, not concerned

about them.

 

What could be done, is a ten-year projection for Vrindavan, and sent to the

donors, so they can see the future of it. Increasing ox-power, shed-size,

decreasing breeding, to this amount, by this amount every year, and this

amount of land the goal to be purchased in this amount of time. That could

of course be only done with PK, or it may not happen.

 

If tree lucerne could be grown, it would greatly reduce the amount spent on

feed, and provide a cost and maintenance-free fodder for the future. PK

likes this idea very much.

 

Thus when a demon like the Agasura demon tried to abuse

>them, Krsna was right there to fight the demon. But who is there to fight

>poachers for ISKCON Vrndavana's cows?)

 

I didn't know they weren't supervised as they grazed. I have heard that some

of them graze the parikrama path, but I was only relieved as the thought of

a cow always being in a pen, and no opportiunity to free graze sounded

terrible.

 

Mind you, there's practically nothing for them to graze on. A bit of tree

leaves, a few hardy weeds, some rubbish. No grass grows naturally there. But

they shouldn't be always locked up.

 

(By locked up I mean in paddocks, not sheds. But no grass in it. They are

brought into sheds at night.)

 

>If the GBC steering committee cannot get some meaningful action going by

>September 15 [meaningful action being a stop breeding order, funds for

>feed,

>funds for personnel and funds for grazing land]

 

It would be wonderful if all of these could happen, especially the last.

 

, it's time to post letters on

>Chakra and VNN -- and to contact activists in PETA.

>

>I think the only weapon that we have to protect the cows is the threat of

>bad

>publicity. This is actually the only thing that activates the GBC on cow

>protection issues.

 

That's what we have experienced before. They are interested in the

publicity, not cows.

 

As for records and accountability, it depends if they provide eartags for

all the animals. Then they can check if they return.

 

If ISKCON does not investigate and crack down on the law-breaker leaders of

>ISKCON Vrndavana, then their shady dealings are sure to pollute ISKCON's

>name.

 

I'm so glad someone is finally saying it. We've covered up truth too long,

placing emphasis on image, and it hurt a lot of gurukulis. Now it is hurting

the cows.

 

your servant, Niscala

 

>

>

>

>From

>

>Niscala Devidasi wrote:

>

> > Chayadevi wrote:

> > >

> > >When a head cowherd of a goshalla such as Vrndavana has not yet handed

>in a

> > >cow report where the numbers add up and has not yet made a report to

>how

> > >many he is breeding, he is not innocent of problems in his goshalla.

> >

> > I'd like to explain a few more things about Vrinadavan goshalla, as I

>was a

> > member for 3 months. The situation there makes the making of reports

>very

> > difficult, which on top of all their problems, is like the straw that

>breaks

> > the camels back. These problems are financial (very bad); fighting the

> > apathy and threatening behaviour of the Vrindavan temple management

>towards

> > cow protection, and them cheating from it to make a quick buck; an

>atrocious

> > past record of cow neglect; severe climatic difficlty; the fact that

>every

> > other goshalla manager has been dismissed due to having fingers in the

>till;

> > the loss of public confidence about this, and loss of funds as the scam

> > filters back to the donors; the fact that the local GBC, refuses to

>help; a

> > huge number of animals to maintain, with very little means to do it; a

>large

> > amount of criticism for the chief cowherd, because he is the one copping

>the

> > blame for the mess made by previous goshalla management, and present

>ISKCON.

> >

> > This last item it would seem is making him reluctant to make reports. He

>is

> > already nervous the ISKCON management may oust him, what to speak of the

>cow

> > ministry, if they find out discrepencies, what they could do. And it is

> > extra work, where he has very little manpower as it is.

> >

> > It is a LOT of extra work, because of the fact that the bulls that

>haven't

> > been worked, and the cows that haven't been recently milked, have had

>their

> > names, ages and family hisories, forgotten. They made an attempt to

> > photograh them some years back, but many photos were lost.Also some lost

> > files on the computer.(Don't forget there is over 250) So we started

>again

> > when I was there. But it is a huge endeavour, just to catch the big

>bulls,

> > look for identification marks, and try to name them. So when I left they

> > were going to get eartags, in an effort to do it.It was an additional

>cost,

> > but PK wants to do it, so that they know if any disappear. Without

>eartags,

> > many look so similar, it will be impossible.

> >

> > Can you imagine the frustration, the goshalla member looking at a bull

>or

> > cow, and saying various names that it might be, and the other goshalla

> > members disagree, and each one takes at least fifteen minutes to catch

>and

> > finally agree on the name- and there are over 250?!! Then when you name

>it,

> > it merges back into the herd of similar looking onbes, and there is more

> > disgreement about who you have named? And the goshalla memebers are all

> > getting grouchy because they have been up since 4 am and this is their

>rest

> > hour interrupted? And none speak English?

> >

> > I didn't see any mistreatment there and I spent often spent hours there,

>but

> > of course it is possible. But what I don't like is that during the

>winter

> > the cows don't have any hay to lie on. There is a stupid arrangement of

> > stone floored pens, which seems to give them pressure sores when they

>lie

> > down. I asked PK about it. Again there is lack of funds for hay.

> >

> > Another massive difficulty they have is no land. It all belongs to

>ISKCON,

> > not the cows. And it is very small, so additional purchase of feed costs

>is

> > high. But even that land is ISKCON's so it can be taken, if the goshalla

> > doesn't pay up in milk. Its a really vicious cycle. Unless a massive sum

>is

> > invested in it, or as HKDD suggests, all the leaders be replaced with

>decent

> > ones, I can't see any way out.

> >

> > So how can all this be explained in a report? All the broken rules come

>from

> > what has gone on in the past, the cheating, the excessive breeding, the

>lack

> > of purchase of land for the cows, the use of cows for sheer profit, with

>no

> > thought for their future protection. You can't fix it even if he hands

>in a

> > report, and he knows it. You say we can't help him if he refuses to

>submit

> > reports, but how can you help him if he does?

> >

> > Vrindavan is a disaster zone, and I can't see a way out. But PK recently

> > went to the US to try to set up a business to bring in money for land,

>as

> > well as inspire some devotees to collect for it. I think he had some

> > success. Unles the cows get some land to their name, there is no hope.

>In

> > the meantime, practically the only source of income is from milk sales,

>and

> > in India, they only milk for 6 months, so therefore this means breeding.

> > There is practically no donor base, due to the brahmacaris syphoning the

> > donations first. And past cheating.

> >

> > Presently, if they reduced the milking, the cows would starve. I have

>seen

> > the books. So I don't see how submitting reports will help them. That

> > doesn't mean that other centres shouldn't. Most neglect and abuse can be

> > avoided, but this Vrindavan overbreeding needs more than a report.

> >

> > your servant Niscala

> >

> > This

> > >Ministry can do very little to help a goshalla when for three years

>there

> > >has been continued allegations and contnued inability to report the

>names,

> > >numbers and amount breeding as per Cow Reports ISKCON law 507. Even

> > >recently

> > >there has been accusations of physical abuse by the workers in the

>goshalla

> > >and again no report or even taking the allegation seriously. It is from

> > >highly reputable devotees. We are to this day waiting to receive a

> > >completely filled out, numvbers adding up cow report from Vrndavana.

> > >

> > >Your sevant,

> > >Chayadevi

> > >

> > >-

> > >"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> > >"Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>; "Cow (Protection and

> > >related

> > >issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > >Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:25 AM

> > >Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

> > >prayer

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > >> They are liars and cheats and should publicly be exposed as

>such.

> > > > >

> > > > > Another example of lying and cheating is in Vrindavan. The

>goshalla

> > >members

> > > > > try to take donations form the temple visitors for cow protection.

>But

> > >they

> > > > > find that the temple visitors say they have already donated to the

> > >cows-

> > >in

> > > > > the office off the temple room! The fact is that the brahmacaris

>there

> > >show

> > > > > them pictures of the cows, and say they are taking donations for

>the

> > > > > goshalla, then give the goshalla nothing, but split it with the

>temple

> > > > > president, who in return, when complaints come from the goshalla,

> > >gives

> > >the

> > > > > brahmacaris no more than a token reprimand, and behind the scenes,

> > >allows it

> > > > > to continue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vrindavan is quite unlike Mayapur. They are quite conscientious

>about

> > > > > keeping their bulls, at least since Prem Kishore took over, and

>they

> > >use

> > > > > very little machinery. They also live very simply. The reason the

>ox

> > >are

> > > > > underworked is the land shortage for ploughing. But they use no

> > >tractors,

> > > > > they are exemplery in that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Re excessive breeding, it is going on there for sure but PK is

>hoping

> > >that

> > > > > the grihastas in the area will each take a cow or two, and start

>to

> > >live

> > > > > simply. Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me. But when I pressed him

> > >about

> > > > > this as it didn't make sense, he said that actually he is forced

>to

> > >breed,

> > > > > as the temple insists he give them a certain amount of milk. He

>has

> > >however,

> > > > > cut down on breeding, and raised milk prices, both of which is

>against

> > >the

> > > > > tide of local opinion. But if he ires the management too much,

>they

> > >may

> > >oust

> > > > > him, and then he will be helpless to do anything to help the cows.

>And

> > >the

> > > > > management could even do away with the goshalla if its too much

> > >trouble.

> > > > > They tried this a few years back, trying to take over the goshalla

>for

> > > > > gurukula use.The goshalla members had to wage quite a big protest

>to

> > >get

> > > > > them to desist.

> > > > >

> > > > > So these are some of the challenges Vrindavan goshalla faces. They

>are

> > > > > massive. Add to that the extreme temperatures and complete lack of

> > >rainfall,

> > > > > and you have a handful of individuals, very dedicated to cow

> > >protection,

> > > > > persisting despite all odds against them. Hats off to them.

> > > > >

> > > > > ys, niscala

> > > >

> > > > Sounds like, as usual, the cow-herd takes the flack. He does all

>the

> > >work

> > >and

> > > > manages as best he can in a situation where many people are

>pressuring

> > >him

> > >to

> > > > breed to produce milk -- while those interested in cow protection

>try to

> > > > persuade him to stop breeding until he has adequate grazing ground

>and

> > >proper

> > > > plans for training and engaging resulting bull calves.

> > > >

> > > > Although keeping the bull calves is certainly better than giving

>them

> > >away

> > > > outright, I think most of us who have experience will view that as

> > >rather

> > > > short-term protection. We have seen similar scenarios before.

>Sooner

> > >or

> > >later

> > > > the temple management will probably become frustrated with the

>cowherd

> > >when one

> > > > or more of the following develops: 1) He refuses to breed the

>number of

> > >cows

> > > > they want, because he fears he cannot properly maintain the

>expansion;

> > >2)

> > >He

> > > > pleads to them for more funds to maintain the animals; 3) He

>publicly

> > >exposes

> > > > the misallocation of funds meant for the cows; 4) Public opinion

>against

> > > > crowded, unhealthy conditions of Vrndavana goshalla becomes intense;

>5)

> > >They

> > > > become exasperated with his constant pleas for the welfare of the

>cows.

> > > >

> > > > At this time, the cowherd will be dismissed and replaced by someone

> > >else.

> > >I

> > > > will be personally surprised if he can last beyond 2006 as head

>cowherd.

> > >He

> > > > will take all the blame. In the interim changeover, I expect that

> > >proper

> > > > record-keeping will be interrupted and a number of these bulls or

>oxen

> > >will

> > > > disappear at that time.

> > > >

> > > > And the temple president, GBC officers, and leading gurus will all

> > >remain

> > >in

> > > > their positions, and never be criticized for their neglect of cow

> > >protection

> > > > and

> > > > their refusal to see ISKCON law is followed on their project.

> > > >

> > > > Breeding cows mainly for the purpose of producing milk, and with no

>firm

> > >plans

> > > > for the training, engagement and life-time protection of resulting

>bull

> > >calves

> > > > is against ISKCON law.

> > > >

> > > > your servant,

> > > >

> > > > Hare Krsna dasi

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>_______________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>--

>Noma Petroff

>Academic Department Coordinator

>BOWDOIN COLLEGE

>Department of Theater & Dance

>9100 College Station

>Brunswick ME 04011-8491

>

>Phone: (207) 725-3663

>FAX: (207) 725-3372

>e-mail: npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu

>

>

 

_______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

[Guest guest]

Dear Hare Krishna dasi

 

Thank you for your continuing strong words and stance.

 

Could I suggest that to make the points more practically fealt the GBC

chairman should be a recipient of such strong correspondance. It is not very

effective to speak strongly on this conference and hope somebody tells the

GBC. We on this conference are already converts to the hopes and

aspirations.

 

I do not think there should be threats to contact outside bodies. This will

allienate cow conference from the GBC. There are many sincere members on the

GBC body we need to help them with their roles by support and internal

pressure.

 

I share your strong frustrations about the lack of practical GBC involvement

with the Vrndavana and Mayapur Goshallas. I do think though that we have to

keep the issues within our society and not look to outside involvement which

will only be deterimental to the general HK society.

 

The campaign should be directed specifically to the involved GBC's of the

specific goshallas and the GBC executive committee.

 

It seams that some of the GBC members only respond to loss of prestige

issues. If the managers of the relevant goshallas continue to feel the

pressure of persons such as your self and Balabhadra and Chayadevi and

others then surely things will turn around.

 

ys syam

[Guest guest]

Niscala Devidasi wrote:

 

> It is very important, very very important to find out first whether it is

> the goshalla or the ISKCON Vrindavan managaement that is making these

> advertisements. If it is the goshalla, it is no dupe, but such funds are

> needed desperately or the cows will starve and go without medical treatment.

>

> They have recently expanded the barn size. So the funds are being used to

> reduce crowding.

>

> But even if it is the ISKCON Vrindavan making these advertisements, which I

> doubt, as they'd get too much flack from the goshalla, but even then, if we

> make bad publicity then the donors that make their contributions to the

> actual goshalla, will stop their donations and the cows will starve. There

> are over 250 of them, with no land of their own, and only a bit of ISKCON

> land, so the donor base is absolutely necessary.

>

> Please be separate in your identification of the culprits. The goshall is

> for the cows, the ISKCON management are against or at least, not concerned

> about them.

>

> What could be done, is a ten-year projection for Vrindavan, and sent to the

> donors, so they can see the future of it. Increasing ox-power, shed-size,

> decreasing breeding, to this amount, by this amount every year, and this

> amount of land the goal to be purchased in this amount of time. That could

> of course be only done with PK, or it may not happen.

>

> If tree lucerne could be grown, it would greatly reduce the amount spent on

> feed, and provide a cost and maintenance-free fodder for the future. PK

> likes this idea very much.

>

> Thus when a demon like the Agasura demon tried to abuse

> >them, Krsna was right there to fight the demon. But who is there to fight

> >poachers for ISKCON Vrndavana's cows?)

>

> I didn't know they weren't supervised as they grazed. I have heard that some

> of them graze the parikrama path, but I was only relieved as the thought of

> a cow always being in a pen, and no opportiunity to free graze sounded

> terrible.

>

> Mind you, there's practically nothing for them to graze on. A bit of tree

> leaves, a few hardy weeds, some rubbish. No grass grows naturally there. But

> they shouldn't be always locked up.

>

> (By locked up I mean in paddocks, not sheds. But no grass in it. They are

> brought into sheds at night.)

>

> >If the GBC steering committee cannot get some meaningful action going by

> >September 15 [meaningful action being a stop breeding order, funds for

> >feed,

> >funds for personnel and funds for grazing land]

>

> It would be wonderful if all of these could happen, especially the last.

>

> , it's time to post letters on

> >Chakra and VNN -- and to contact activists in PETA.

> >

> >I think the only weapon that we have to protect the cows is the threat of

> >bad

> >publicity. This is actually the only thing that activates the GBC on cow

> >protection issues.

>

> That's what we have experienced before. They are interested in the

> publicity, not cows.

>

> As for records and accountability, it depends if they provide eartags for

> all the animals. Then they can check if they return.

>

> If ISKCON does not investigate and crack down on the law-breaker leaders of

> >ISKCON Vrndavana, then their shady dealings are sure to pollute ISKCON's

> >name.

>

> I'm so glad someone is finally saying it. We've covered up truth too long,

> placing emphasis on image, and it hurt a lot of gurukulis. Now it is hurting

> the cows.

>

> your servant, Niscala

>

 

So, in other words, what it boils down to is that they are holding the cows

hostage, so we should not publicize their lawbreaking activities.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the correction, you are correct.

-

"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

"Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Cc: "Niscala Devidasi" <niscala89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

Thursday, July 05, 2001 4:18 PM

Re: They don't have a plan -- and the bull calves don't have a

prayer

 

 

>

>

> "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

>

> > This Ministry was formed in 1999, not too long ago.

>

> Just for the record, I believe that the GBC endorsed the creation of the

> Ministry for Cow Protection and Agriculture in February 1998.

>

>

> > Since then the Minimum

> > Cow Protection Standards have been written by the members of this

conference

> > and made ISKCON Law 507. What other service in ISKCON has standards?

> > Possibly the Deity Ministry. This was quite revolutionary. A cow report

form

> > has been revised and revised so that now it is quite simple to fill out

if

> > the goshalla has any record keeping. We have been told that many farms

are

> > now breeding carefully, some of the cow reports show us that by the

facts.

> > Here in the USA everyone is very careful about this. In other words

progress

> > has been made in only 2 years without money and much help.

> >

> > Now it is time to organize the voice of the cowherds. I have always

believed

> > that no one person has the answers, that by joining our energies

together

> > the answers will come. That is how we did the Standards. I for one do

not

> > claim to know how the voice of the cowherds can be formed. The cow

reports

> > have been the beginning. But the lack of trust in any ISKCON titled

agency

> > is there.

>

> Yes, it is amazing what the Ministry has been able to do with no funding.

You

> kindly credit everyone else, but the fact is that without Balabhadra and

Chaya

> we would not have pushed this thing through to completion. It is a great

> credit

> to the both of you.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

[Guest guest]

Chayadevi Mata wrote:

 

> This Ministry can be a united voice for the cowherds worldwide to put

> pressure on leaders to do something to help the situation. Just like a

> labor union. All the little workers who just get stepped on, when united

> are a force to be dealt with. This Ministry is increasing in influence

> every day. The way that happens is by uniting the devotees who care and

> going forth with a united voice. We can not do that when the cowherds

> themselves do not give facts about their goshallas. A labor union has to

> have the facts of what is going on with its workers in order to cover

> their backs when going up

> against the big guys.

>

> We understand the lack of faith that we can do anything. But the logic is

> there. Unite the voices of the cowherds and lobby. There are already many

> strong devotees who have taken an interest in this Ministry's activities.

> We are blessed with the association of Syamasundara prabhu, Rohita prabhu,

> Pancaratna prabhu, Hare Krsna Prabhu, and other members of this conference

> who have been coming forth. Even in the GBC level we actually have

> supporters who would unite with us if we had a strong lobby plan.

>

> Now it is time to organize the voice of the cowherds. I have always

> believed that no one person has the answers, that by joining our energies

> together the answers will come. That is how we did the Standards. I for

> one do not claim to know how the voice of the cowherds can be formed. The

> cow reports have been the beginning. But the lack of trust in any ISKCON

> titled agency is there.

>

> My heart goes out to all the young devotees who sincerely want to do this

> service but are totally frustrated because it offers no viable means of

> livelihood that they can implement. My heart goes out to all the cows born

> in

> ISKCON that do not have lifetime protection for themselves or their

> progeny. I have respect for the members of this conference and I request

> that suggestions be made as to how we can organize a united voice. One

> stick can be broken, many sticks together can not be broken. Srila

> Prabhupada said near the end of his life, you will show your love for me

> by how you cooperate with one another.

>

> Your servant,

> Chayadevi

 

Prabhupada: No, how you'll find it? Give me. Unless you have an index,

list.... The purport of the verse is that even Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu --

He is God himself, Krsna Himself -- He felt, alone, unable to do this task.

He felt. So this is the position. You are cooperating; therefore I am

getting the credit. Otherwise alone what could I do? Ekaki amara nahi paya

bolo. Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself wanted our cooperation. He is God, Krsna.

And therefore cooperation is very important thing. Nobody should think that

"I have got so great ability. I can do." No. It is simply by cooperation we

can do very big thing. "United we stand; divided we fall." This is our....

So be strong in pushing on Krsna consciousness, and Krsna will help. He is

the strongest. Still, we must be combined together. Sankirtana. Sankirtana

means many men combined together chanting. That is sankirtana. Otherwise

kirtana. Sankirtana. Bahubhir militva kirtayeti sankirtana.(?) Bahu. Bahu

means many, many combined together. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission,

combined together. All nations, all persons they should combine together.

There is hope in our society, combination. There are Hindus; there are

Muslims; there are Christians; there are black, white. Combine them. That

looks very beautiful, just like combination of many flowers. There is black

flower also. It looks nice, very nice. Each and every flower take alone; it

is not beautiful, but when they are combined together, it looks very

beautiful. It is attractive. And that is wanted. Because from the spiritual

platform we are all working. Panditah sama-darsinah [bg. 5.18]. Spiritual

platform, every one of us, we are servant of Krsna. So where is the

competition between one servant with another? There is.... Even there is

competition, the center is Krsna -- "Who can serve more?" Therefore that

competition is very welcome, because there is no personal interest. Everyone

is trying how to serve Krsna more. That is wanted. The competition is there

in his real form and perverted form. In the real form Krsna is the center,

and the perverted form, I am the center. I compete with you to satisfy my

senses more. What is called? Heliocentric or...?

Pusta Krsna: Egocentric.

Prabhupada: Egocentric, yes. This is egocentric.

Tamala Krsna: It should be Krsna-centric.

Prabhupada: Yes, then it is perfect. The competition must remain. The

others, they say, "Why competition? Make it zero." That is imperfect. But

competition to satisfy Krsna, that is reality.

Devotee (3): I found the verse. It's in "Ohe Vaisnava Thakura." Ekaki amara

nahi paya bolo, hari-nama-sankirtane.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, not this verse. What is the meaning?

Devotee (3): Meaning is, "I do not find the strength to carry on alone the

sankirtana of the holy name of Hari. Please bless me by giving me just one

drop of faith with which one can attain the great treasure of the holy name

of Krsna."

Prabhupada: So nobody is powerful alone. In Krsna's service also, combine

together. That is wanted.

Tamala Krsna: I think there is no question of being alone anywhere, because

the guru is always with one.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the ideal.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Guru is also depending, and combination means I depend on you,

you depend on me, that's all. That is combination. That's all.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation With Radha-Damodara Sankirtana Party

-- March 16, 1976, Mayapur