Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 - "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> "Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Tuesday, October 09, 2001 5:42 PM Fw: RDP Principles > > - > "markjon chatburn" <protection_farms > > "iscowp" <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> > Tuesday, October 09, 2001 7:54 PM > RDP Principles > > > > Dear all, > > > > What I am about to present may seem as a divergence > > from the themes that have been seen so far. What I > > want to look at first are principles of land use, not > > practices. Principles must supercede practices. So > > before any practical measurements can be observed let > > us dive into the theory of principles. > > > > A major flaw of statistical models is that the > > collection of data becomes the raison d'etre. > > Empirical data should be collected to allow analysis > > leading to synthesis. Meaning observe, ask all the > > questions and do the experiments to lead to a > > conclusion to synthesise into a managment objective. > > Statistics, as all things in life, are there to serve > > us, not for us to serve them. Too much 'science' > > becomes a slave to statistical measurements. > > > > So, what is the key? It must be to bring the type and > > amount of data down to the optimum. What really is the > > quality that we need to measure? The measuring must > > serve for the purpose which is management. So what are > > the qualities that we can observe that need > > statistical references to allow for the intelligent > > synthesis of management to bring forth progress? > > > > I have been meditating for some time on the qualities > > that we need to measure to judge the development > > criteria by and I have an idea that I am still working > > on. The idea is to set principles based on Sankya > > Yoga's 24 component parts (but a problem I have here > > is that I only have in the UK the abridged version of > > the Bhagavad Gita which does not have the details I > > want that are in the non-abridged version with the > > full purport to chapter 13, slokás 6&7. If you know > > where I can get that basic analysis of the 24 > > component parts then I would really like to see that > > text, otherwise I'm working on memory). > > SYNONYMS mahä-bhütäni-the great elements; ahaìkäraù-false ego; buddhiù-intelligence; avyaktam-the unmanifested; eva-certainly; ca-also; indriyäëi-the senses; daça-ekam-eleven; ca-also; païca-five; ca-also; indriya-go-caräù-the objects of the senses; icchä-desire; dveñaù-hatred; sukham-happiness; duùkham-distress; saìghätaù-the aggregate; cetanä-living symptoms; dhåtiù-conviction; etat-all this; kñetram-the field of activities; samäsena-in summary; sa-vikäram-with interactions; udähåtam-exemplified. TRANSLATION The five great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifested, the ten senses and the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hatred, happiness, distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms, and convictions-all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and its interactions. PURPORT >From all the authoritative statements of the great sages, the Vedic hymns and the aphorisms of the Vedänta-sütra, the components of this world can be understood as follows. First there are earth, water, fire, air and ether. These are the five great elements (mahä-bhüta). Then there are false ego, intelligence and the unmanifested stage of the three modes of nature. Then there are five senses for acquiring knowledge: the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin. Then five working senses: voice, legs, hands, anus and genitals. Then, above the senses, there is the mind, which is within and which can be called the sense within. Therefore, including the mind, there are eleven senses altogether. Then there are the five objects of the senses: smell, taste, form, touch and sound. Now the aggregate of these twenty-four elements is called the field of activity. If one makes an analytical study of these twenty-four subjects, then he can very well understand the field of activity. Then there are desire, hatred, happiness and distress, which are interactions, representations of the five great elements in the gross body. The living symptoms, represented by consciousness and conviction, are the manifestation of the subtle body-mind, ego and intelligence. These subtle elements are included within the field of activities. The five great elements are a gross representation of the false ego, which in turn represents the primal stage of false ego technically called the materialistic conception, or tämasa-buddhi, intelligence in ignorance. This, further, represents the unmanifested stage of the three modes of material nature. The unmanifested modes of material nature are called pradhäna. One who desires to know the twenty-four elements in detail along with their interactions should study the philosophy in more detail. In Bhagavad-gétä, a summary only is given. The body is the representation of all these factors, and there are changes of the body, which are six in number: the body is born, it grows, it stays, it produces by-products, then it begins to decay, and at the last stage it vanishes. Therefore the field is a nonpermanent material thing. However, the kñetra-jïa, the knower of the field, its proprietor, is different. > > The need for principles as I see it is that throughout > > the world practical conditions vary but there are > > underlying principles that can be seen. If we can > > grasp these principles and see how betterment or > > worsening conditions can relate to the principles then > > it can be applicable throughout the world; therefore > > principles would be universal and practices would be > > location-specific. > > > > In many parts of the world there is anthropological > > evidence that local cultures know their soils, water, > > trees, everything on their land. They would make > > judgements based on their scientific analysis, which > > would be just as valid as the 'Western' approach. They > > understood basic principles, whilst western science > > looked for specific data on a limited quantifiable > > quality. Here western science would be purely > > analytical and local cultures would be subjective > > (based on their reasoned logic based on sound > > principles). > > > > Just a short description of how these principles of > > land use would work: the practices would then be a > > sub-group within the principles. Basically there would > > be 3 divisions of 5 principles each. > > > > For LAND (the environment): earth and smell, water and > > taste, fire and sight, air and touch, and ether and > > sound would form the basis of measuring land > > principles. > > > > Earth - both earth and smell could be a measure. In a > > system where the rural area is being transformed out > > of the modes of ignorance to passion and goodness then > > there must be a transformation that would have > > quantifiable changes in various qualities. One could > > be smell itself. In one's land area as the > > transormation takes place then the smells must go from > > poor to excellent as the herbage, flowers and animals > > add their aroma. Another one would be soil structure. > > Throughout all the soils in the world an increase in > > fertility directly correlates to a betterment in soil > > structure. This can be easily measured, both > > analytically and subjectively. > > > > > > Water - water and taste. Taste could be measured like > > smell, but here meaning in the food produced, the > > quality and variety; leading to more biodiversity. > > Another one would be the quantity of water absorbed in > > one's land area. In water resource management there is > > a direct correlation between the land fertility and > > productivity and the amount of water trapped in the > > soil, biomass and microclimate. This can be easily > > measured, both analytically and subjectively. > > > > Fire - visual and energy (trophic). As the above two. > > Both analytical and subjective measurements. One's > > land area would be more visually excellent the more > > developed according to RDP values. Also the more > > developed land area would have greater amount of > > energy trapped in the soil, water and biomass, this > > can be analytically measured. > > > > Air - presence and vibe. The 3D architecture of > > landuse according to more use of forestry, > > agroforestry and homegardens would lend to it this > > feeling of presence. The contrasts can be found in an > > Argentine open Pampa land compared to a dense forest. > > An Eden, a managed cornocapia must have excellent 3D > > land use architecture, and thus presence. > > > > Ether - sound. In the above Eden the sounds can be > > measured in fauna and flora. To go from industrial > > agriculture (or in cases an unstewarded wild forest) > > must take the sounds into a new dimension, and can be > > measured. > > > > The next part is a bit more sketchy, that's why I need > > to refer more to Sankhya. In terms of society, we are > > looking at the kama kanda, and varnasram - diet > > (minerals, flora, fauna), housing (sudra), production > > and procreation (vaisya), protection (ksyatria), > > philosophy (brahman). And economy at Atha - > > maintenance, production, movement, administration and > > design. > > > > So much of the above could be pure speculation even > > though I have based it on my incomplete analysis of > > Sankhya. It is just that I have been formulating the > > principled qualitative analysis of the farming system > > for some years now, and this is the stage I have > > gotten to. If you think it to be too esoteric and off > > the development track, then maybe yes, maybe no. but > > at least in the LAND category it is possible to see > > how the principles tightly correlate to the movement > > from a poor farming system to a rich, diverse land > > system. > > > > I like the ideas of principles as the main basis of > > statistical analysis. Beyond that there are practices > > that can yield to statistical qualities - milk yield/ > > cow lactation, quantity of crops (as biomass/ $crop > > value in PPP) / ox teams, quantity of assets (land, > > animals) once liabilities have been subtracted. > > > > Lets see what we think about principles, and then have > > a go at practices. > > > > Mark > > > > --- iscowp <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > Mark wrote: > > > <The first step though, as I see > > > it, is to get the framework agreed upon, which means > > > finding specific qualities within the above env, > > > soc, > > > econ criteria, quantifying them and observing their > > > interactions thus giving each criteria a different > > > waiting.> > > > > > > > > > Let's start with the Environmental. You have > > > suggested some qualities for > > > this category. Please write how you think it should > > > be and the rest of the > > > conference can give feedback. > > > > > > > > > > > Environmental: Land use principles and practices > > > of > > > > lifetime-protected cow-based agriculture - initial > > > > work outlined in Standards. Major work to look at > > > - > > > > increasing production and productivity in terms of > > > > land and cow/ox. Land - to use land in a > > > sustainable > > > > form that will in the long term increase fertility > > > and > > > > bio-diversity, whilst at the same time producing > > > for > > > > the short and longterm needs of the participants. > > > Key > > > > issues beyond the Standards - agroforestry, > > > > agro-ecology, permaculture (all basically the same > > > > thing), organic or biological farming, > > > biodynamics, > > > > food quality, water resource management. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a great connection at Personals. > > http://personals. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 > > -Tenants of ISKCON land who are primary participants in land use ie > horticulture, agriculture etc.. cannot be removed from their household > security without Ministry of Agriculture permission. Tenants of ISKCON land in good standing actively engaged in horticulture, agriculture etc.. cannot be removed from their household security without due process and Ministry of Agriculture permission. With allowances for illness and injury. > -Land use must be at least to the standards of Low External Imputs > Sustainable Agriculture. > > -Temples are oblidged to buy produce from ISKCON land users depending on > availability and need. > Temples are encouraged to buy produce from ISKCON land users depending on availability and need, and obligated to accept payment in kind for monies due and payable. > -ISKCON land users cannot lose their land tenancy on the basis of sadhana or > breach of three regulative principles (not including meat eating). > This will need to have some extensive discussion. My own experience is that druggies don't make good neighbors in the long run. > > Obviously these are loose chuck it in the discussion sentances and are not > complete. Yes. Thanks for throwing up some thing as catalyst for discussion. But I think we need to make simple principles that have real > relevance to ISKCON land users. KISS principle for sure. I think our focus has to be there first > because we know that is the only place the GBC can have any influence. What > ISKCON members do on their own bought land is outside our real influence > although if we could help set up a market within ISKCON for their produce > that would also be useful. Using temple purchasing as a carrot and a tool for subsidizing is essential to success IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Thankyou Rohita for the enclosed material, I had not come across this. I had heard of André voison but not Allan Savory and his book. The fromer I know to be an expert in rural land management systems. Mark --- Rohita dasa <talavan (AT) fnbop (DOT) com> wrote: > Please accept my obeisances, all glories to Srila > Prabhupada. > > Have you seen a book put out by Allan Savory called, > 'Holistic Resource > Management', I believe that this may shed some light > on the question. He has > worked on this as a wildlife manager for the African > Parks and as an advisor > for ranchers in the western part of the USA for the > last 40 + years. Please > read the attachment, it is made up of excerpts from > his two books and a > partial outline of his system. He is a disciple of > Andre Voisin a Frenchmen > of the 1800s who did a lot of research into > different pasturing systems and > how to get the most out of the land without > upsetting a delicate balance. > ys, Rohita dasa > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=Holistic Resource Management.doc Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 ISBN 0-933280-61-0 (v.1 : pbk) He has also a workbook all very informative. The title, Holistic Resource Management, gives a very good synopsis of its contents. - "markjon chatburn" <protection_farms > "Rohita dasa" <talavan (AT) fnbop (DOT) com>; <cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:48 AM Re: RDP Principles > Thankyou Rohita for the enclosed material, I had not > come across this. I had heard of André voison but not > Allan Savory and his book. The fromer I know to be an > expert in rural land management systems. > > Mark > > > --- Rohita dasa <talavan (AT) fnbop (DOT) com> wrote: > > Please accept my obeisances, all glories to Srila > > Prabhupada. > > > > Have you seen a book put out by Allan Savory called, > > 'Holistic Resource > > Management', I believe that this may shed some light > > on the question. He has > > worked on this as a wildlife manager for the African > > Parks and as an advisor > > for ranchers in the western part of the USA for the > > last 40 + years. Please > > read the attachment, it is made up of excerpts from > > his two books and a > > partial outline of his system. He is a disciple of > > Andre Voisin a Frenchmen > > of the 1800s who did a lot of research into > > different pasturing systems and > > how to get the most out of the land without > > upsetting a delicate balance. > > ys, Rohita dasa > > > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/msword name=Holistic > Resource Management.doc > > > > > > Make a great connection at Personals. > http://personals. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2001 Report Share Posted October 18, 2001 Pancaratna ACBSP wrote: > I also suggest that we should pick one of the farms that is willing and > eager to be reinvigorated as a farm community (not just as a > preaching/tourism project) and see what it would take for that particular > community. In doing so we would look at what could be replicated. > > Your servant, > Pancaratna das Pancaratna Prabhu suggests that we select one farm community which is eager to be reinvigorated and see what it would take for that particular community. That sounds an awful lot like he wants to make the "small unit of ideal community" which we heard about in March 1974 -- isn't he being overly influenced by the ideals of Srila Prabhupada? ;-) your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Dear Prabhus, PAMHO. AGTSP. There are now 3 proposals into the GBC . They have met the deadline and all have GBC sponsors. I had to do some changes to the VRDP mainly just renaming it Vaisnava Rural Land Development Guidelines. Perhaps the Land does not have to be there but the Guidelines is really more waht we are putting together. The proposal is basically asking the GBC to recognize and approve the committee to formulate these guidelines. The guidelines are promised by 2003 meetings. At which time the GBC approval of the committee should help. I was reviewing some of the texts on the guidleines and I came across this one. - "Ananda Maya (dd) SDG (Derrylin - UK)" <Ananda.Maya.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net> "Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Friday, October 12, 2001 5:10 PM Fw: RDP Principles > haribol prabhus > pamho agtsp > > I think that we need to keep things very clear, therefore the plan can be at > two levels. The first would be an overall standard similar to the cow > standards, the second a hands on guide in more detail that maybe could look > at details and form the basis of a good practice guide. > This sounds good to me and approachable by this conference. I remember we had a basic breakup of Environmental, Social and Economic. So my suggestion is that we start with the environmental and give ideas about standards/guidelines for it. Anyone want to begin? Your servant, Chayadevi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 >the second a hands on guide in more detail that maybe could > look > > at details and form the basis of a good practice guide. Case studies, possibly even citing good and bad examples from ISKCON history, or issues that arise within the next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 Environmental Principles - >From the Veda we can see the clear difference between matter (non-living) and spirit (living), and this can be delinated in the environment. The living flora and fauna can be described by its biodiversity, and the non-living can be seen in the 5 gross elements. Any principle formulated should be able to deal with these. So as I have shown before, land fertility, soil structure, water retention and drainage, energy trapped in the system, the 3D architecture of the land and its temporal succession, and the land's bio-diversity are identifiable features that can have clear principles of what is good and bad practice. Compared to what I wrote before on the 5 elements the only addition here, as I forgot it, is biodiversity, which is really important. All of the above factors will only function well with a good range of bio-diversity, but too much may not give human sustenance (though doubtful), so the biodiversity we seek is a qualified one where the diverse range of flora and fauna provide sufficient nutrition for the social needs of the participants. As no-one else has put forward principles then I put forward this again, as it is in my mind folly to go on to practices, management tools, and case studies until we have developed an analytical tool of principles on which we can assess relative strengths and weeknesses of land use practices. For an assessment of what land will be like in its 100% stage it needs a measurable marker based on its principles - in simple format - earth = soil structure and dry-weight biomass, water = moisture retention, fire = energy retention, air = 3D architecture, ether = succesional features, spirit = biodiversity. Mark Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at or bid at http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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