Guest guest Posted September 9, 2001 Report Share Posted September 9, 2001 Dear Mark & Cow Conference Members, PAMHO. AGTSP. Yes this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. We have actually spent several months on discussing with Mark our objections to a commercial approach to cow protection before it resurfaced with Niscala prabhu explaining much the same points made by other members before. Also there has been a great attempt to work out facts and figures for Mark's plan. I feel as organizer of this conference that the body of devotees who are participating have made their opinions clear: the consenus being that they are not enthusiastic for a large scale commercial approach to cow protection. No matter of brow beating by Mark is going to change that. In fact it is time for Mark to grow up and take the knowledge he has gleaned here and do his project. We can not honestly give our blessings to it nor is anyone in the positon to finance it or give manpower. We are all in need of these items ourselves. I am sorry that this conference seems dogmatic and sentimental to Mark. Those discussing have many years of experience in cow protection and in my opinion have heard Mark out and tried to give their knowledge patiently. As organizer of this conference: > Not to cause offence in any way, but it would be nice > to actually finish this argument, but with logic, not > just sentiment or dogma. It is now finished! Your servant, Chayadevi - "markjon chatburn" <protection_farms > "Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:17 PM Milk dilemas and dogmas > Syam, > > In your response to Niscala Devidasi, whilst I fully > support your view that free labour will not work in > our present social and economic system, I must point > out again an inherent paradox and contradiction in > your analysis below: > > > Breeding impetus must be based on the need for > > working bulls to have any > > relevance to the ISKCON cow world. > > If we can demonstrte how one farmer using a team or > > teams of oxen can > > support his family that will be very significant > > The paradox lies in the untried situation that could > end up meaning ox-powered cropping may not yield > sufficient income to maintain a livelihood for the > worker and yield excess to maintain the oxen on their > own land. > > The contradiction herein lies that if ox-powered > cropping can not be made econmically viable in the > Western world, of not viable enough to be adopted as > it is easier to do other things, then cow protection > will not take off. > > If I remember rightly from my readings, Bhaktivinoda > Thakur once said that devotees do not just except > dogma on the face of it, but that if the Vedas are > proved wrong in some way then a devotee must accept > that, it is not religion based on faith, but on > science, devotion based on wisdom. > > My point here is that when Prabhupada stated that "if > we do not use the ox we will make plans to kill it", > it is in the fact that by trying to use the ox, and > not yet succeeding, that we do not take cow protection > further. And if by using oxen there are no economic > gains to reduce the costs of the total herd, or that > it becomes more expensive, then what is the gain to > the whole system because it will become even more > expensive and thus more unviable and less adoptable. > > In the Protection Farms model, one looks at a form of > second class cow protection concentrating on dairy, > with the boys funded into the system. My point is that > if this is presently more feasible and adoptable, as > you have shown how extended lactations and labour > needs work, if and when ox-powered cropping can be > shown to have economic merit, after small-scale > research through trail and error, then it should be > introduced en masse if it will be adopted. Otherwise > the boys will just have to be funded through private > milk sales and other goods, charity and public funds, > with ox power used where economically and adoptably > viable. > > Otherwise, what is the situation? We continue to > consume bloodmilk, leather, wool, etc, from the > slaughter system that we so vehemently condem, but we > fail to protect farm animals en masse because of a > dogma, that may not be relevant in the present > situation because of a lack of adoption, instead of > making plans to protect cows even if the oxen just > walk around doing nothing. The latter will only be a > major burden if they have not been funded, and a minor > burden in the field if they cause trouble. > > I know this subject has been gone over ad nauseum, but > I find your view and that of many here to be a > dogmatic position that in the end could yield worse > results than taking a more pragmatic view that we must > change our consumption patterns to the better even if > it means not fulfilling all the criteria. > > A protected milking cow and a working ox is better > than a protected milking cow and a non-working ox, is > better than a non-protected milking cow and a > non-protected-non-working ox. > > Until the above logic is defeated I can not rest from > putting forward this view point. It may take years to > find a way to make ox-powered cropping economically > viable and adoptable in our societies. Should we just > be content to consume bloodmilk etc, watch video > footage of slaughterhouses, see millions of "destined" > farm animals, and say "well I can't go about > protecting them until I can find a way to work the > ox"? > > Whilst I desire to see ox-powered cropping, I would > rather see a farming system in place of which I can > consume animal-derived products with or without > ox-powered cropping. And if ISCKON cow conference > members can not see that logic I wonder if you are > really interested in worldwide cow protection or just > in fulfilling religious dogma. > > Not to cause offence in any way, but it would be nice > to actually finish this argument, but with logic, not > just sentiment or dogma. > > Mark > > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger > http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Syam, In your response to Niscala Devidasi, whilst I fully support your view that free labour will not work in our present social and economic system, I must point out again an inherent paradox and contradiction in your analysis below: > Breeding impetus must be based on the need for > working bulls to have any > relevance to the ISKCON cow world. > If we can demonstrte how one farmer using a team or > teams of oxen can > support his family that will be very significant The paradox lies in the untried situation that could end up meaning ox-powered cropping may not yield sufficient income to maintain a livelihood for the worker and yield excess to maintain the oxen on their own land. The contradiction herein lies that if ox-powered cropping can not be made econmically viable in the Western world, of not viable enough to be adopted as it is easier to do other things, then cow protection will not take off. If I remember rightly from my readings, Bhaktivinoda Thakur once said that devotees do not just except dogma on the face of it, but that if the Vedas are proved wrong in some way then a devotee must accept that, it is not religion based on faith, but on science, devotion based on wisdom. My point here is that when Prabhupada stated that "if we do not use the ox we will make plans to kill it", it is in the fact that by trying to use the ox, and not yet succeeding, that we do not take cow protection further. And if by using oxen there are no economic gains to reduce the costs of the total herd, or that it becomes more expensive, then what is the gain to the whole system because it will become even more expensive and thus more unviable and less adoptable. In the Protection Farms model, one looks at a form of second class cow protection concentrating on dairy, with the boys funded into the system. My point is that if this is presently more feasible and adoptable, as you have shown how extended lactations and labour needs work, if and when ox-powered cropping can be shown to have economic merit, after small-scale research through trail and error, then it should be introduced en masse if it will be adopted. Otherwise the boys will just have to be funded through private milk sales and other goods, charity and public funds, with ox power used where economically and adoptably viable. Otherwise, what is the situation? We continue to consume bloodmilk, leather, wool, etc, from the slaughter system that we so vehemently condem, but we fail to protect farm animals en masse because of a dogma, that may not be relevant in the present situation because of a lack of adoption, instead of making plans to protect cows even if the oxen just walk around doing nothing. The latter will only be a major burden if they have not been funded, and a minor burden in the field if they cause trouble. I know this subject has been gone over ad nauseum, but I find your view and that of many here to be a dogmatic position that in the end could yield worse results than taking a more pragmatic view that we must change our consumption patterns to the better even if it means not fulfilling all the criteria. A protected milking cow and a working ox is better than a protected milking cow and a non-working ox, is better than a non-protected milking cow and a non-protected-non-working ox. Until the above logic is defeated I can not rest from putting forward this view point. It may take years to find a way to make ox-powered cropping economically viable and adoptable in our societies. Should we just be content to consume bloodmilk etc, watch video footage of slaughterhouses, see millions of "destined" farm animals, and say "well I can't go about protecting them until I can find a way to work the ox"? Whilst I desire to see ox-powered cropping, I would rather see a farming system in place of which I can consume animal-derived products with or without ox-powered cropping. And if ISCKON cow conference members can not see that logic I wonder if you are really interested in worldwide cow protection or just in fulfilling religious dogma. Not to cause offence in any way, but it would be nice to actually finish this argument, but with logic, not just sentiment or dogma. Mark Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.