Milk dilemmas and dogmas

[Guest guest]

-

"markjon chatburn" <protection_farms >

"Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:17 PM

Milk dilemas and dogmas

 

 

> Mark

> In your response to Niscala Devidasi, whilst I fully support your view

that free labour will not work in our present social and economic system, I

must point out again an inherent paradox and contradiction in your analysis

below:

 

> > Shyam

> > Breeding impetus must be based on the need for working bulls to have any

relevance to the ISKCON cow world. If we can demonstrte how one farmer using

a team or teams of oxen can support his family that will be very

significant.

 

Comment:

Working of oxen as you have said is crucial in order to accomplish ISKCON

cow protection work, this is even an ISKCON by-law now, if that has any

meaning?

 

> Mark

> The paradox lies in the untried situation that could end up meaning

ox-powered cropping may not yield sufficient income to maintain a livelihood

for the worker and yield excess to maintain the oxen on their own land. The

contradiction herein lies that if ox-powered cropping can not be made

econmically viable in the Western world, of not viable enough to be adopted

as it is easier to do other things, then cow protection will not take off.

 

Comment:

I am very positive that you will find the case you have mentioned to be

true. Most westerners have a very high standard of living requirement, this

is seen by the fact that most families require two wage earners. This is not

due to lower earning power of the primary earner, but to the fact that many

so called essentials or necessities are not really required in order to live

comfortably. Because of advertizing and other similar propaganda we have all

become brain washed into thinking they are all essential for the good life,

just to fuel the consumer capitalistic mentality.

 

> Mark

> If I remember rightly from my readings, Bhaktivinoda Thakur once said that

devotees do not just except dogma on the face of it, but that if the Vedas

are proved wrong in some way then a devotee must accept that, it is not

religion based on faith, but on science, devotion based on wisdom.

>

> My point here is that when Prabhupada stated that "if we do not use the ox

we will make plans to kill it", it is in the fact that by trying to use the

ox, and not yet succeeding, that we do not take cow protection further. And

if by using oxen there are no economic gains to reduce the costs of the

total herd, or that it becomes more expensive, then what is the gain to the

whole system because it will become even more expensive and thus more

unviable and less adoptable.

 

Comment:

If you are looking for meeting the same profit goals as the rest of western

based society then cropping using oxen is not the way. Cropping using oxen

is not geared to profit but to ecological soundness (which is generally not

profitable) and harmony with all living things.

>

>Mark

>In the Protection Farms model, one looks at a form of second class cow

protection concentrating on dairy, with the boys funded into the system. My

point is that if this is presently more feasible and adoptable, as you have

shown how extended lactations and labour needs work, if and when ox-powered

cropping can be shown to have economic merit, after small-scale research

through trail and error, then it should be introduced en masse if it will be

adopted.

 

Comment:

Do not forget that all this (extended lactations and labour) rests on the

fertility of the land and the inherit capability of the cows milking.

Especially if the land used is not of the highest quality - this affects the

nutrient gradient resulting in lower production and short lactation lengths,

what to speak if you have a breed that is not of long lactation

capabilities. When devotees go out to buy land, experience has taught (at

least in America) we buy cheaper land and generally this of a lower

production capability.

 

> Mark

>Otherwise the boys will just have to be funded through private milk sales

and other goods, charity and public funds, with ox power used where

economically and adoptably viable.

 

> Otherwise, what is the situation? We continue to consume bloodmilk,

leather, wool, etc, from the slaughter system that we so vehemently condem,

but we fail to protect farm animals en masse because of a dogma, that may

not be relevant in the present situation because of a lack of adoption,

instead of making plans to protect cows even if the oxen just walk around

doing nothing. The latter will only be a major burden if they have not been

funded, and a minor burden in the field if they cause trouble.

 

Comment:

'and a minor burden in the field if they cause trouble.'

 

>From this I can see you have not had much experience, I know for a fact that

all American ISKCON farms experience this a number of times on a yearly

basis (other regions also?). This results in poor neighbour relations and

time taken to repair that can be better utilize - we here in Mississippi

have been forced to reorganized our corporate structure to keep from losing

our land. We have a land holding corporation and a preaching corporation

with the cows belonging to the preaching corporation and that body leasing

land from the other.

>

> Mark

> I know this subject has been gone over ad nauseum, but I find your view

and that of many here to be a dogmatic position that in the end could yield

worse results than taking a more pragmatic view that we must change our

consumption patterns to the better even if it means not fulfilling all the

criteria.

 

Comment;

There are two things we need to do; change consumption patterns and bring

our daily activities in line with are more Krishna conscious type of mind

set.

>

> Mark

> A protected milking cow and a working ox is better than a protected

milking cow and a non-working ox, is better than a non-protected milking cow

and a non-protected-non-working ox.

>

> Until the above logic is defeated I can not rest from putting forward this

view point. It may take years to find a way to make ox-powered cropping

economically viable and adoptable in our societies. Should we just be

content to consume bloodmilk etc, watch video footage of slaughterhouses,

see millions of "destined" farm animals, and say "well I can't go about

protecting them until I can find a way to work the ox"?

 

Comment:

I do not consume blood milk - mine comes from protected cows, cows that I

personally milk. I have no video machine with which to watch these things -

I do know of them. My time is taken up trying to maintaining the animals

here (124) and trying to educate the GBC and temple management of the needs

of the cows. As for working oxen I personally have no time - there are 8

people here who are as qualified, if not more so to do this - we have about

60 animals capable of being engaged - we have 1260 acres of land of which

60% is available if someone wants to use it for an ox-centered program. This

has been the fact for in access of 25 years. This means it is a human mind

set problem, nothing more nothing less.

 

> Mark

> Whilst I desire to see ox-powered cropping, I would rather see a farming

system in place of which I can

consume animal-derived products with or without ox-powered cropping. And if

ISCKON cow conference members can not see that logic I wonder if you are

really interested in worldwide cow protection or just in fulfilling

religious dogma.

>

> Not to cause offence in any way, but it would be nice to actually finish

this argument, but with logic, not just sentiment or dogma.

 

Comment:

These eight people, three have more than seven years experience working oxen

the others have at least one year experience at working oxen - why they can

not so it? Have to pay the bills, so they do everything from laying floors,

working in a ship yard, working in a painting business and so on - and they

are unhappy at doing those things. It has nothing to do with religious dogma

it has to do with mindset, to decrease what are the necessities and the

desire to take-up the yoke in place of the tools they now hold. By doing

this they will become peaceful, will be at home nearer their families more

and will discover they have time for Krishna.

ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

> Comment:

> If you are looking for meeting the same profit goals as the rest of

western

> based society then cropping using oxen is not the way. Cropping using

oxen

> is not geared to profit but to ecological soundness (which is generally

not

> profitable) and harmony with all living things.

 

Amen