Education and Rules

[Guest guest]

-

"Rupanuga (das) TKG (Dallas, TX - US)" <Rupanuga.TKG (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Sunday, January 4, 2004 12:58 pm

Education and Rules

 

> I appreciate both points, about education and rule-making.

>

> Often, the products of education are not realized in the short

> term. Srila

> Prabhupada was educating his youthful followers from the

> beginning; but it

> took some time before the fruits of his efforts became highly

> visible. So,

> one might conclude that the efforts to enlighten might not be

> immediatelyfruitful, any more than would a planted seed, which

> requires time to

> fructify. Should we be discouraged, thinking that our efforts are

> in vain?

> Probably not. Perhaps we should continue to do our duty, and wait

> for Krsna

> to bestow the results, whatever they might be.

>

> It might take some time for ISKCON, as a whole, to appreciate the

> rules that

> have been established regarding cow protection; but in the

> meantime, we can

> go on offering whatever wisdom we have been blessed to receive,

> hoping that

> at some future time, everyone will benefit.

>

> Perhaps we should not be too hard on our GBC members, either,

> since they,

> too, have often had more responsibilities to shoulder than

> volunteers to

> help carry the load.

 

One big reason why ISKCON is a mess is that is allows the institution of

sannyasa -- which is prohibited in kali yuga -- but it does not have any

ksatriyas to make sure that men who are supposed to be an emblem of

truthfulness keep their vows.

 

The GBC's who oversee some of ISKCON's largest farm projects deserve every bit

of blame that is addressed to them on the subject of cow protection. Because

they do not fulfill their responsibility of making sure that ISKCON's laws are

enforced, some of theses projects continue to overbreed -- and animals are

treated most disgracefully.

 

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. I only hope that when they receive

their karmic reaction for tearing down Srila Prabhupada's cow protection

programs that they will understand exactly why they are being punished.

 

Please read the standards for yourself just one more time. You will see that

the responsibilities of the GBC were formulated to be very small and minor --

but just by doing these things -- such as meeting personally and privately with

the cheif cowherd only once per year -- so much suffering of Krsna's cows could

have been prevented. But they won't do it.

 

I have no sympathy for them at all. This is not to condemn all of them, only

the ones who actually have farms but neglect them.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

 

Some of us have felt the need to abandon our

> servicefor that very reason; and some (read "Balabhadra and

> Chayadevi") have opted

> to carry on in spite of the dearth of help. That is not to say

> that all

> criticisms levied have not been justified; rather, we can continue

> to work

> to bring about change, in spite of what we see as the shortcomings of

> others.

>

> Dandavats to the dust of your feet.

>

> Rupanuga das

>

[Guest guest]

My dear Hare Krishna devi,

 

You have presented two ideas that are news to me: (1) that ISKCON is a mess,

and (2) that ksatriyas have the responsibility for enforcing the vows of

sannyasis. But M. Chayadevi would probably chide you and me for discussing

these topics on this forum. So, I'll return to what I hope is an

appropriate topic.

 

Are you sure you have no sympathy for those who are limited by the material

energy of the Lord, whether in the form of their own minds or the

circumstances in which they pursue their service? I have read enough of

your writings in the past, Prabhu, to doubt the sincerity of your statement.

How can you love Krishna's cows while maintaining feelings of animosity

toward those who are, at some level or other, trying to serve Krishna's pure

devotee? Is there any of us who has performed his or her service

impeccably? Is there any who could not have done better with some

encouragement, if not tangible assistance?

 

I'm not trying to sugar coat any mistakes that have been made, in

administration, cow protection, child rearing, or any other aspect of our

beloved society. But would it not benefit us to get past these ghosts that

continue to haunt us, and move forward with whatever means we have at our

disposal, to establish the type of society our kids will be glad to identify

with? And if we can't accomplish this with one stroke, at least we can make

progress toward that end. Not alone, of course, but with the good wishes of

all those still in our movement, and maybe even of those who have left

because of some ill treatment.

 

I pray that we can adopt the principle I once heard from a wise man: be

strict with yourself and lenient with others. That saintly person also

asked how we can tolerate our own faults, but not those of others.

 

Will you kindly tolerate my faults, and allow me to remain a member of this

forum? My best wishes for your success in your service to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Rupanuga das

 

One big reason why ISKCON is a mess is that is allows the institution of

sannyasa -- which is prohibited in kali yuga -- but it does not have any

ksatriyas to make sure that men who are supposed to be an emblem of

truthfulness keep their vows.

 

The GBC's who oversee some of ISKCON's largest farm projects deserve every

bit

of blame that is addressed to them on the subject of cow protection.

Because

they do not fulfill their responsibility of making sure that ISKCON's laws

are

enforced, some of theses projects continue to overbreed -- and animals are

treated most disgracefully.

 

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. I only hope that when they receive

their karmic reaction for tearing down Srila Prabhupada's cow protection

programs that they will understand exactly why they are being punished.

 

Please read the standards for yourself just one more time. You will see

that

the responsibilities of the GBC were formulated to be very small and minor

--

but just by doing these things -- such as meeting personally and privately

with

the cheif cowherd only once per year -- so much suffering of Krsna's cows

could

have been prevented. But they won't do it.

 

I have no sympathy for them at all. This is not to condemn all of them,

only

the ones who actually have farms but neglect them.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

> Are you sure you have no sympathy for those who are limited by the

> materialenergy of the Lord, whether in the form of their own minds

> or the

> circumstances in which they pursue their service? I have read

> enough of

> your writings in the past, Prabhu, to doubt the sincerity of your

> statement.How can you love Krishna's cows while maintaining

> feelings of animosity

> toward those who are, at some level or other, trying to serve

> Krishna's pure

> devotee? Is there any of us who has performed his or her service

> impeccably? Is there any who could not have done better with some

> encouragement, if not tangible assistance?

 

My main point here is that cow protection is a very very low priority for most

GBC's.

 

Consider the following conversation:

 

****************

 

Prabhupada: No luxuries. Live very simple life and you will save time for

chanting Hare Krsna.

 

Hamsaduta: Yes Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: Taht is my desire. dont' wate time for bodily comforts. You have

got this body. You have to eat something. You have to cover yourself. so

produce your own food and produce your own cloth. don't waste time for luxury,

and chant Hare Krsna. This is success of life. In this way organize as far as

possible, either in Ceylon or in Czechoslovakia, wherever...Save time. Chant

Hare Krsna. don't be allured by the machine civilization.

 

Hamsaduta: Yes Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: This is soul-killing civilization, this kind of way of life,

especially European countries. Anywhere you can inhabit it. It is not very

difficult. A cottage; you can produce your own food anywhere. Am I right?

 

Hamsaduta: Yes, Prabhupada. We will do it

 

Prabhupada: ...I wanted to introduce this. Now I have given you ideas. You

can do it.

 

Conversation October 8, 1977

 

***************

 

To me, when Srila Prabhupada says "produce your own food" it includes using

cows and oxen to produce milk and grains.

 

You say that these devotees have dedicated their lives to serving Srila

Prabhupada -- and maybe they have -- but they are not serving my Srila

Prabhupada, they are not serving the vision that he is presenting here.

 

"I wanted to introduce this. Now I have given you the ideas. You can do it."

 

But when was the last time you heard a GBC give a Sunday lecture about the

importance of cow protection, about the importance of building self-sufficient

communities?

 

If I ask you when was the last time you heard a sannyasi give a talk about the

danger of being attracted to illicit sex, you would have no trouble at all --

but if I ask about when they last talked about the importance of cow

protection, when they last encouraged their congregation to adopt a cow, when

was the last time that they insisted that the Deities be offered only milk from

protected cows, when they last encouraged their congregation to use only

home-grown crops to celebrate Govardhana Puja -- then it becomes much more

difficult. Cow protection and simple living are a very, very low priority with

most of them.

 

I feel that devotees like Samba Prabhu have admitted this and are now trying to

develop Prabhupada's vision of self-sufficient devotee communities on their

own. That seems realistic.

 

And of course, devotees like Chaya and Balabhadra and others continue to push

on despite the indifference of ISKCON leaders.

 

But when we won't admit that the GBC for the most part is not interested in cow

protection, then I think we are deceiving ourselves.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

All of this is very very true. I think Rupanuga prabhu has hit the nail right

on the head. I don't think this understanding could have been expressed in a

better way.

 

We can't let ourselves lean toward pessimism despite the negative experiences

of the past much of which continue to roll into today. To learn from the past

is not to be consumed by it. Just like a young plant, when presented with an

obstacle, bends and winds its way around it, continuing to grow beyond it.

ISKCON is still very young. Srila Prabhupada would preach to walls if no one

was

there to hear from Him; it was not in vain. It had its unperceived effect.

 

We can continue to press, little by little each day and in each thought,

word, and deed. Eventually the right people will listen and begin to act. If

they

don't then, when they move on, the people who replace them will, or the ones

after that. But we have to keep discussing and keep moving forward.

 

The GBC is a collective entity, it may be easy to change one person's mind

when speaking to them alone. But it is difficult to change a group mentality,

especially when they have been or are dealing with their own less then

satisfactory situations-personally or managerially. But I think many of us can

see that

things have changed--even if they only changed because they had to. Things

are improving and I think they will continue to improve -- to become more real

in substance and purpose.

-Ys Gopal dasa

 

In a message dated 1/4/2004 11:58:48 AM Central Standard Time,

Rupanuga.TKG (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

I appreciate both points, about education and rule-making.

 

Often, the products of education are not realized in the short term. Srila

Prabhupada was educating his youthful followers from the beginning; but it

took some time before the fruits of his efforts became highly visible. So,

one might conclude that the efforts to enlighten might not be immediately

fruitful, any more than would a planted seed, which requires time to

fructify. Should we be discouraged, thinking that our efforts are in vain?

Probably not. Perhaps we should continue to do our duty, and wait for Krsna

to bestow the results, whatever they might be.

 

It might take some time for ISKCON, as a whole, to appreciate the rules that

have been established regarding cow protection; but in the meantime, we can

go on offering whatever wisdom we have been blessed to receive, hoping that

at some future time, everyone will benefit.

 

Perhaps we should not be too hard on our GBC members, either, since they,

too, have often had more responsibilities to shoulder than volunteers to

help carry the load. Some of us have felt the need to abandon our service

for that very reason; and some (read "Balabhadra and Chayadevi") have opted

to carry on in spite of the dearth of help. That is not to say that all

criticisms levied have not been justified; rather, we can continue to work

to bring about change, in spite of what we see as the shortcomings of

others.

 

Dandavats to the dust of your feet.

 

Rupanuga das

[Guest guest]

> So reclassify Cow Protection Standards as education rather than rules,

> because de facto that is what they are. Now is everybody happy?

 

You can re-classify them, but I dont think there will suddenly be a rush to

read them afresh and implement them. As long as there is no enforcement the

best we can expect is for the most sincere ones to read them. Those who just

want profit will do what they will do anyway.

[Guest guest]

> > > So reclassify Cow Protection Standards as education rather than rules,

> > > because de facto that is what they are. Now is everybody happy?

> >

> > You can re-classify them, but I dont think there will suddenly be a rush

> to

> > read them afresh and implement them. As long as there is no enforcement

> the

> > best we can expect is for the most sincere ones to read them. Those who

> just

> > want profit will do what they will do anyway.

> >

>

> Make up your mind and stick to one position please. You object to rules

> and push for education, so I agree and say let's educate and you say it

> won't work because it lacks the force of rule.

 

Sorry, I turn 45 this year, and the senility is creeping in. No I was just

saying that if we just say that, ahem, folks, you know those standards we

made, well just think of them as 'education' ok.

 

I was just saying that we need to be much more proactive about the

education, otherwise no one might notice.

 

Boy am I being unclear nowadays.

 

Sheesh

[Guest guest]

> I differ with the point put forth by Samba that rules are a botheration.

 

I feel that I really owe you an apology. Please forgive my insensitivity.

 

I have not at all meant to minimise the great work you have all been doing.

I am not at all faulting the cow standards, I am merely pointing out the

unfortunate fact that is being lamented by Madhava ghosh prabhu, Hare Krsna

Mataji, etc, that despite the existence of these rules, and the fact that

they are now GBC law, still some of the very GBC's who made them law are

still not complying with them, or so it appears from the reports we are

getting.

 

So when I say that they are a botheration, I mean that it appears as if they

are PERCIEVED as a botheration.

 

Laws that bring instant gratification are welcomed and laws that mean extra

work are often not welcomed, and this is what we see.

 

I dont know if any of you have checked our website, but I really would like

to get some feedback. This work is offered as a service to cow protection

overall and we need help to get it right.

 

Your servant

Samba das

www.madhuvan.org

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/04 1:41:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

 

 

> so much suffering of Krsna's cows could

> have been prevented. But they won't do it.

 

 

"so much suffering of Krishnas children....But they won't do it.

 

eka Buddhi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/4/04 5:51:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

 

 

> : This is soul-killing civilization, this kind of way of life,

Srila Prabhupada, partial quote.

 

I know some that would feel that this statement applied to ISKCON as it has

been implemented by gbc....

 

The point Rupanuga makes about giving up "ghosts" is imperative. It was also

stated, that we might not see the results immediately. Someone gave a

statement about doing "only" for Krishna, we are not allowed the fruits of our

actions. What i, somewhat, humbly see as a priority, is that we DO care for

the

cowherd boy First. If the parent, protector is not cared for, encouraged,

mentally healthy, how then can he care properly for his dependents, which

include

the cow?

 

Part of being mentally healthy, is to give up the ghosts. Mistakes were

(quite brutally) made. Now what. Move forward, ignore completely the

"gb(rutes)c

when necessary. Karma is due for standing by and not speaking up for

devottes being abused, much less cows. But they are godbrothers and should be

met

with compassion and understanding. We have to stop being bitter about what is

 

Not happening. Forget it, everyone has shortcomings. it should be obvious

that the gbc are not as capable as they would have liked the "lower" levels to

have believed. Now give up the ghost.

Balabadhra and Chaya kept moving.

 

I dropped in for a minute on a nice class in Atlanta this Sunday. She was

saying on sankirtana one should be "loving" to those we approach. Some of us

are incapable of being loving, forget that......patient, respectful, human to

each other, within this movement. Yet we are angry with others for not

"loving" cows. Those of you who want to follow verbatim what Srila Prabhupada

said

(in the past, about specific situations), consider this.....what would he be

saying now. Give him all the child protection cases to read, tell him about

the

cover-ups, female sankirtana beatings, habitual rapes of children on the land

that was soooooo responsible for protecting cows. I personally have

complete faith that Prabhupada would have adjusted some of his statements to

fit

time, place, and circumstance. We must use our intelligence, i believe

Prabhupada

would not disagree. The cow must be part of a family, if it is to be nicely

protected. Make the family happy, healthy, sane....the rest will follow.

ducking for cover, ekaBuddhi

[Guest guest]

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

> In a message dated 1/4/04 1:41:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

>

>

>> so much suffering of Krsna's cows could

>> have been prevented. But they won't do it.

>

>

>

>

> "so much suffering of Krishnas children....But they won't do it.

>

> eka Buddhi

 

Please, everyone, observe my restraint. I'm tying a rope around my

fingers so that I won't take this remark as an opening to make extensive

comments in agreement. I'm staying on topic!! It's a struggle, but I'm

doing it.

 

ys

hkdd

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > so much suffering of Krsna's cows could

> > have been prevented. But they won't do it.

>

>

> "so much suffering of Krishnas children....But they won't do it.

>

 

Exactly, there is a direct correlation - not protecting dependents. The

irony is, many of those beating the drum for child protection, blithely

drink blood milk

> eka Buddhi

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/13/04 4:05:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,

gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com writes:

 

 

> many of those beating the drum for child protection

>

 

Someone please loan me some string, my fingers are wiggling.....

[Guest guest]

The really sad part is that the next on the list of dependants is the

elderly...

 

 

____________

 

In a message dated 1/13/2004 11:01:04 AM Central Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

 

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

In a message dated 1/4/04 1:41:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

 

 

 

so much suffering of Krsna's cows could

have been prevented. But they won't do it.

 

 

 

"so much suffering of Krishnas children....But they won't do it.

 

eka Buddhi

Please, everyone, observe my restraint. I'm tying a rope around my fingers

so that I won't take this remark as an opening to make extensive comments in

agreement. I'm staying on topic!! It's a struggle, but I'm doing it.

 

ys

hkdd

[Guest guest]

Srimad Bhagwatam 3.16,10

 

Translation

The brahmanas, the cows and the defenseless creatures are My own body. Those

whose faculty of judgement has been impaired by their own sin look upon these

as distinct from Me. They are just like furious serpents and they are angrily

torn apart by the bills of the vulturelike messengersd of Yamaraj, the

superintendent of sinful persons.

 

Purport by Srila Prabhupada:

The defenseless creatures, according to Brahma Samhita, are the cows,

brahmanas, women , children and old men. Of these five, the brahmanas and cows

are especially mentioned in this verse because the Lord is always anxious

about the benefit of the brahmanas and the cows and is prayed to in this way.

The Lord especially instructs therefore that no one should be envious of

these five , especially the cows and brahmanas. ......................Those who

are helpless should be taken care of by their respective guardians otherwise

the guardians will be subjected to the punishment of Yamaraj who is appointed

by the Lord to supervise the activities of sinful living creatures.The

Assistants, or messengers of Yamaraj are likened here to vultures, and those

who do not execute their respective duties in protecting their wards are

compared to serpents . Vultures deal very seriously with serpents, and

similarly the messengers will deal very seriously with neglectful guardians.

-

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu ; Rupanuga.TKG (AT) pamho (DOT) net

Cc: gourdmad (AT) ovnet (DOT) com ; Ndadhikaaritkg (AT) cs (DOT) com ; labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net ;

Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com ; d_4h (AT) hotmail (DOT) com ; doctorox (AT) pa (DOT) net ; Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net

Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:58 PM

Re: Education and Rules

 

 

In a message dated 1/4/04 5:51:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

 

 

 

: This is soul-killing civilization, this kind of way of life,

 

Srila Prabhupada, partial quote.

 

I know some that would feel that this statement applied to ISKCON as it has

been implemented by gbc....

 

The point Rupanuga makes about giving up "ghosts" is imperative. It was also

stated, that we might not see the results immediately. Someone gave a

statement about doing "only" for Krishna, we are not allowed the fruits of our

actions. What i, somewhat, humbly see as a priority, is that we DO care for

the cowherd boy First. If the parent, protector is not cared for, encouraged,

mentally healthy, how then can he care properly for his dependents, which

include the cow?

 

Part of being mentally healthy, is to give up the ghosts. Mistakes were

(quite brutally) made. Now what. Move forward, ignore completely the

"gb(rutes)c when necessary. Karma is due for standing by and not speaking up

for devottes being abused, much less cows. But they are godbrothers and should

be met with compassion and understanding. We have to stop being bitter about

what is Not happening. Forget it, everyone has shortcomings. it should be

obvious that the gbc are not as capable as they would have liked the "lower"

levels to have believed. Now give up the ghost.

Balabadhra and Chaya kept moving.

 

I dropped in for a minute on a nice class in Atlanta this Sunday. She was

saying on sankirtana one should be "loving" to those we approach. Some of us

are incapable of being loving, forget that......patient, respectful, human to

each other, within this movement. Yet we are angry with others for not

"loving" cows. Those of you who want to follow verbatim what Srila Prabhupada

said (in the past, about specific situations), consider this.....what would he

be saying now. Give him all the child protection cases to read, tell him about

the cover-ups, female sankirtana beatings, habitual rapes of children on the

land that was soooooo responsible for protecting cows. I personally have

complete faith that Prabhupada would have adjusted some of his statements to

fit time, place, and circumstance. We must use our intelligence, i believe

Prabhupada would not disagree. The cow must be part of a family, if it is to

be nicely protected. Make the family happy, healthy, sane....the rest will

follow.

ducking for cover, ekaBuddhi