Fwd: Cowherd-friendly communities

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Return-path: <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>

Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com

Full-name: Dasgopal

Message-ID: <c4.29c0872.2d2c9c86 (AT) aol (DOT) com>

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:19:34 EST

Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu

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Taking the below into consideration, I feel it is important to acknowledge

that, although ISKCON is made up of all classes of people, it is for the most

part meant to be an educational and missionary movement. Education and

preaching

is the work of Brahmanas. Brahmanas are also known to maintain cows,

(historically they were offered cows in great numbers and maintained them

sometimes

personally). Brahmanas may also live by begging or serving in education and

accepting some offfering in return.

 

Again, my emphais, while striving for the program to maintain itself, is not

business (vysha), it is to educate and preach so that society has an example

of what the simple life that we preach about looks like. So that they may take

inspiration along with real hands on education. Just as Balabhadra, he and his

good wife are not into oxen for money or business (the motivations of a

vysha), they are doing this to please Guru and Krishna by teaching adn setting

and

example; this is the motivation of a brahmana. Just like in the temple we show

archana and teach devotional service, thus others may go home and set up

their own alter and practive as they have seen and heard--the priest in the

temple

is maintained as a brahmana.

 

It is also acceptable for a brahmana to perform the occupations of Ksatrias

and even Vysas in times of need, (though not sudras which happens to be our

current occupation).

 

I do not feel that a brahmana being maintained by a temple adminstrators (who

are also brahmanas) to estabhish a temple goshalla on temple land--working

the temple's oxen would go against the principles of brahminical life--for me

the land, cows and oxen are simply the pariphinelia of the diety as much as the

 

cups and spoons in the pujari room are. Currently we so not see that the cups

are lelf in the cupboard tarnished and covered in cobwebs while paper cups

(of lower quality) are used on the altar. However, in many farm temples, the

cows and land are not being engaged in the service of the dietly and a lower

quality item (karmi milk) is being offered to the Lord.

 

That the temple's goshall and agricultural endeavors serve to teach would be

a bonus.

 

I understand that in 'varnashrama' there is much emphasis on cows as part of

business and agriculteral trade (vysha dharma), but in times of need, brahmins

must be willing to do the needful to help teach others the value of these

aspects of varnashrama which are almost wholy dysfunctional in today's society.

 

Many Iskcon devotees are engaged in administative work for the temples for

support, however, ksatrias are not to be supported--these devotees are doing

this

work as brahmins for a temple or a brahminical society.

 

It is not that brahmanas avoid other services (often seeming to involve hard

work) because they are not able to do them, they generally do not do it

because in a vedic society, it is being done by the other classses of people.

However this is not the case in modern times. Any brahmana should be willing to

 

engage in administraition (even of state or nation) what to speek of cow

protection at a temple when the need to teach it to the general society is

there. If a

brahmana is not willing to do the needful when it is most needed, even when

allowed to according to sastra, then we have to ask whether they are truely a

brahmana, or instead a lazy man (or woman) who is only acting the part in order

 

to have an easier life (very common in this age).

 

For the present time, I feel, in order to be a vysa in today's world (in much

of the US at least), we would have to follow the protocal of today's economy.

There are very sucessful vyshas in our movement--they make much money doing

business. However, in the field of agriculture and cow protection there are few

 

if any who are sucessful. In setting it up from the temple, it would begin as

an educational program for society and the surrounding community--when the

local polulation begins to follow the example (the the temple's assistece

[think

out-reach]) then things will start to mirror the vedic conception. Right now,

I feel it is too early or premature to expect all devotees who consider

themselves vyshas to endeavor each get their own land; as we discussed

previously,

many find it hard to remain stable and it is more common to have the land and

let it sit because one has to work full time to pay for it.

 

Still, all things considered, Srila Prabhupada wanted Iskcon to be a

preaching mission and that varnashrama be taught through his movement--the

movement

should still set and maintain a working example of the ideal. Once it is set

up,

local devotees could participate in raising crops on their own lands and/or

maintaining cows; then the temple, being the previously established center of

such activity would become the central market place where the community could

gather and trade.

 

Again, my purpose is to teach and preach. For this, even if teaching only one

of the aspects of vysha dharma (agriculture-cow protection) it is acceptable

for a brahmana to engage in this task and be maintained.

 

-ys Gopal

 

---------------------------

 

In a message dated 1/5/2004 9:03:54 PM Central Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

I think this is where we come to a tricky part about varnasrama.

 

Srila Prabhupada states many times that of the four varnas, only the sudras

should be dependent.

 

When we put cowherds on temple land, we are putting them in a situation which

is not in keeping with vaisya mentality. So -- in general -- one of two

things happens:

 

1. The cowherd accepts a dependent position, where he always has someone

over him telling him how things must be done. Gradually he loses his

initiative.

He becomes a sudra. It's not bad to be a sudra -- but in this case it does

not lead to a dynamic, expansive cow program.

 

OR

 

2. He eventually becomes more and more frustrated that he does not have

sufficient freedom to try his own ideas on the project. He sees that there is

no

long-term future for himself and his family. Gradually, he becomes

exasperated and leaves.

 

If you have a copy of the Prabhupada Varnasrama book, you should read

Prabhupada's Geneva conversation of June 6, 1974, "Every Man Should Own Some

Land."

Even this very phrase of Srila Prabhupada's embodies an important essence of

Vaisya nature.

 

In other places, Srila Prabhupada present more specifics -- how the ksatriyas

should give land to the vaisyas and how the vaisyas should in turn pay their

taxes -- in crops and milk -- to the ksatriyas.

 

You probably won't be able to follow this in detail, but the more you can

accommodate vaisya nature, the more successful your plan will be -- because the

 

vaisyas will find fulfillment instead of frustration. What they want more than

 

anything is to expand and develop a program -- not to be told what to do.

 

And of course with all this, training is essential. There are a number of

different training options, some work best for some people, some work best for

others. Tillers trains people in how to work the oxen, so does the 4-H. Also,

 

you can purchase various ox training videos. ISCOWP has a training video and

there is also a brand new Drew Conroy video on training oxen.

 

But it does take diligence. That little girl that won the obstacle course

competition was probably out there with her oxen every night for an hour.

Maybe

it's a New England thing. I know that the man who used to be the head of our

college buildings and grounds crew used to go home and work with his ox team

every night. He said it helped him unwind.

 

ys

hkdd

 

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<DIV>

<DIV>Taking the below into consideration, I feel it is important to acknowle=

dge that, although ISKCON is made up of all classes of people, it is for the=

most part meant to be an educational and missionary movement. Education and=

preaching is the work of Brahmanas. Brahmanas are also known to maintain co=

ws, (historically they were offered cows in great numbers and maintained the=

m sometimes personally). Brahmanas may also live by begging or serving in ed=

ucation and accepting some offfering in return.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Again, my emphais, while striving for the program to maintain itse=

lf, is not business (vysha), it is to educate and preach so that s=

ociety has an example of what the simple life that we preach about look=

s like. So that they may take inspiration along with real hands on education=

.. Just as Balabhadra, he and his good wife are not into oxen for money =

or business (the motivations of a vysha), they are doing this to please =

;Guru and Krishna by teaching adn setting and example; this is the motivatio=

n of a brahmana. Just like in the temple we show archana and teach devo=

tional service, thus others may go home and set up their own alter=

and practive as they have seen and heard--the priest in the temple is=20=

maintained as a brahmana. </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>It is also acceptable for a brahmana to perform the occupations of=

Ksatrias and even Vysas in times of need, (though not sudras which hap=

pens to be our current occupation). </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I do not feel that a brahmana being maintained by a temple adminstrator=

s (who are also brahmanas) to estabhish a temple goshalla on temple lan=

d--working the temple's oxen would go against the principles of brahminical=20=

life--for me the land, cows and oxen are simply the pariphinelia of the diet=

y as much as the cups and spoons in the pujari room are. Currently we so not=

see that the cups are lelf in the cupboard tarnished and covered in cobwebs=

while paper cups  (of lower quality) are used on the altar. However, i=

n many farm temples, the cows and land are not being engaged in the service=20=

of the dietly and a lower quality item (karmi milk) is being offered to=

the Lord.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>That the temple's goshall and agricultural endeavors serve to teach&nbs=

p;would be a bonus.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I understand that in 'varnashrama' there is much emphasis on cows=20=

as part of business and agriculteral trade (vysha dharma), but in times of n=

eed, brahmins must be willing to do the needful to help teach others the val=

ue of these aspects of varnashrama which are almost wholy dysfunctional in t=

oday's society. Many Iskcon devotees are engaged in administative work for t=

he temples for support, however, ksatrias are not to be supported--these dev=

otees are doing this work as brahmins for a temple or a brahminical society.=

</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>It is not that brahmanas avoid other services (often seeming to&nb=

sp;involve hard work) because they are not able to do them, they generally d=

o not do it because in a vedic society, it is being done by the other classs=

es of people. However this is not the case in modern times. Any brahmana sho=

uld be willing to engage in administraition (even of state or nation) w=

hat to speek of cow protection at a temple when the need to teach it to=

the general society is there. If a brahmana is not willing t=

o do the needful when it is most needed, even when allowed to according to s=

astra, then we have to ask whether they are truely a brahmana, or=20=

instead a lazy man (or woman) who is only acting the part in order to have a=

n easier life (very common in this age).</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>For the present time, I feel, in order to be a vysa in today's world (i=

n much of the US at least), we would have to follow the protocal of today's=20=

economy. There are very sucessful vyshas in our movement--they make much mon=

ey doing business. However, in the field of agriculture and cow protection t=

here are few if any who are sucessful. In setting it up from the temple, it=20=

would begin as an educational program for society and the surrounding commun=

ity--when the local polulation begins to follow the example (the the te=

mple's assistece [think out-reach]) then things will start to mirror th=

e vedic conception. Right now, I feel it is too early or premature to expect=

all devotees who consider themselves vyshas to endeavor each get=20=

their own land; as we discussed previously, many find it hard to remain stab=

le and it is more common to have the land and let it sit because one has to=20=

work full time to pay for it.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Still, all things considered, Srila Prabhupada wanted Iskcon to be a pr=

eaching mission and that varnashrama be taught through his movement--the mov=

ement should still set and maintain a working example of the ideal. Once it=20=

is set up, local devotees could participate in raising crops on their own la=

nds and/or maintaining cows; then the temple, being the previously establish=

ed center of such activity would become the central market place where=20=

the community could gather and trade.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Again, my purpose is to teach and preach. For this, even if teachi=

ng only one of the aspects of vysha dharma (agriculture-cow protection) it i=

s acceptable for a brahmana to engage in this task and be maintained.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>-ys Gopal</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>---------------------------</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>In a message dated 1/5/2004 9:03:54 PM Central Standard Time, npetroff@=

bowdoin.edu writes:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=

2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>I think this is where we come to a tricky part=

about varnasrama.<BR><BR>Srila Prabhupada states many times that of the fou=

r varnas, only the sudras should be dependent.<BR><BR>When we put cowherds o=

n temple land, we are putting them in a situation which is not in keeping wi=

th vaisya mentality.  So -- in general -- one of two things happens:<BR=

><BR>1.  The cowherd accepts a dependent position, where he always has=20=

someone over him telling him how things must be done.  Gradually he los=

es his initiative.  He becomes a sudra.  It's not bad to be a sudr=

a -- but in this case it does not lead to a dynamic, expansive cow program.<=

BR><BR>OR<BR><BR>2.  He eventually becomes more and more frustrated tha=

t he does not have sufficient freedom to try his own ideas on the project.&n=

bsp; He sees that there is no long-term future for himself and his family.&n=

bsp; Gradually, he becomes exasperated and leaves.<BR><BR>If you have a copy=

of the Prabhupada Varnasrama book, you should read Prabhupada's Geneva conv=

ersation of June 6, 1974, "Every Man Should Own Some Land."  Even this=20=

very phrase of Srila Prabhupada's embodies an important essence of Vaisya na=

ture.<BR><BR>In other places, Srila Prabhupada present more specifics -- how=

the ksatriyas should give land to the vaisyas and how the vaisyas should in=

turn pay their taxes -- in crops and milk -- to the ksatriyas. <BR><BR>You=20=

probably won't be able to follow this in detail, but the more you can accomm=

odate vaisya nature, the more successful your plan will be -- because the va=

isyas will find fulfillment instead of frustration.  What they want mor=

e than anything is to expand and develop a program -- not to be told what to=

do.<BR><BR>And of course with all this, training is essential.  There=20=

are a number of different training options, some work best for some people,=20=

some work best for others.  Tillers trains people in how to work the ox=

en, so does the 4-H.  Also, you can purchase various ox training videos=

..  ISCOWP has a training video and there is also a brand new Drew Conro=

y video on training oxen.<BR><BR>But it does take diligence.  That litt=

le girl that won the obstacle course competition was probably out there with=

her oxen every night for an hour.  Maybe it's a New England thing.&nbs=

p; I know that the man who used to be the head of our college buildings and=20=

grounds crew used to go home and work with his ox team every night.  He=

said it helped him unwind.<BR><BR>ys<BR>hkdd</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

<DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

 

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