Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. Still the broader question is: In Hindu society is it considered low-class to work the oxen? Whether the worker is a Muslim or a low-class Hindu or Dalit is a secondary consideration. In my case, my American spiritual master worked the oxen. But I wonder whether an ox worker would ever even be a spiritual master in Hindu society? And, I remember at Gita-nagari, there was a devotee named Gudakesa, whose occupation was to shovel manure out of the barn. One time when he gave a Bhagavatam class he stated that "Devotional service is the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord." This is the highest knowledge I have ever heard. But would this manure shoveller even have been allowed to present a Bhagavatam class in Hindu society? So what is the position of the bullock driver in Hindu society? Is he respected -- or is he disdained? If these workers are regarded with respect, perhaps you can give us some specific examples of people in this vocation who are well respected in Hindu society. In Hindu society, is it deemed appropriate for a cow herd or ox worker to publicly lecture on spiritual knowledge? So my question is not so much: Are ox-workers Muslims? Rather, it is: How are they regarded by Hindu society? And my point is that if farmers and laborers are generally regarded with disdain by Hindu society, then perhaps that is why Srila Prabhupada wanted to establish his concept of simple living and high thinking in the West rather than in India, because in the West there is still a vestige of respectability to hard work. Whereas, in a culture where those who work hard are held in disdain, then it would have been much more difficult for Srila Prabhupada to establish a lifestyle based on simple living and high thinking. Also, I found it interesting that you said you liked to do hands-on work with the cows, but your husband had discouraged you. Again, your description makes it sound like the western attitude of honoring hard work was present from your upbringing thus you enjoyed doing the work, but for your husband, who had been raised as a proper Hindu, that type of work was more of an object of disdain. Or do I misunderstand - was there some other reason why he thought it inappropriate for you to be engaged in hands-on work with the cows? ys hkdd Rosalie Malik wrote: > I dont know if you read my comment that what you have said that farmers >who work the oxen in India are mostly Muslims is not at all true. You >must have got some impression from Mayapur which has a large Muslim >population, but for all India your impression is totally unfounded. The >majority of farmers are Hindus who live in villages and they work hard. > > >>Srila Prabhupada was in India in 1977, when he determined to set out to >>the Gita-nagari to start varnasrama. Why did he want to go to the West? >> Wouldn't India have been better? >> >>The fact is, I'm gradually coming to see that he realized that the >>existence of Hindu tradition would be a large obstacle to the >>implementation of varnasrama and self-sufficient villages the way he >>envisioned it. Self-sufficient villages were going to require lots of >>physical labor and a clear understanding that one may just as easily go >>back to Godhead by engaging in sudra labor of building and collecting >>manure for Krsna's sake as by worshipping on the altar. >> >>But to traditional Hindus this concept was very hard to understand. >> Therefore, he wanted to go to the West, which at least had some >>vestiges that hard work could be a pious thing to do. >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 - Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net> Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> Cc: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Sunday, February 22, 2004 4:41 PM Re: Bullock drivers viewed as low class? > Dear Hare Krsna devi dasi > > pamho agtSP. To the urban westernised middle class rural life means > poverty and backwardness so they disdain it and shudder at the thought of > it. they also look down on urban slum dwellers. Its normal in material life > for people to disdain those poorer than themselves. > Famers however are respectable as they are self employed and mostly they > have food security even though they may not have a lot of money. They do > work the oxen themselves and clean their own cow sheds, They are vaisyas. Only a devotee would give bhagwatam class and any devotee can whatever his service but there isnt much point in a farmer giving the class if he isnt a devotee. > However in this area in monsoon when the rice paddies are flooded and > muddy they do hire katkaris (tribals) to do the ploughing as it is such > heavy work, and they hire them to take the cows grazing as everyone has to > herd his cows and not let them in others rice fields to graze, They used to > keep a tribal boy at home and feed him and give him money for the whole > rainy season to watch the cows so they could be free for field work too. > But the tribals have become smart( chalu they call it) because the Xians do > instigate them not to cooperate in work, so many farmers feel they cannot > keep big herds for this reason, So these tribals are looked on with disdain > esp as they drink heavily . and those who work for money are not respected much by those who work for themselves. Working with the bulls is not considered low> class but under western influence young people dont want to work on the> land but go to the city and earn money and get all the things which are advertised. They believe they have become educated so field work is beneath their dignity.People dont want to marry their daughters into families who keep cattle as they dont want them to have to work hard. > > My husband doesnt like me to do hands on work as he says I should supervise > but if I work I am just a worker like the others. Its the division of > labour I guess and caste is there very much with the people. But it > doesnt apply to me and a devotee can do any work, My father and > grandfather were in India during the British Raj and I feel it is very > unbecoming as a white person to come here and lord it over. like a > colonial relic ( lady muck) > I also feel I have to be able to do the work otherwise servants will think > we are totally dependent on them. . Even if they all leave I wish to > be able to handle the cows. I t certainly would take all day. I wasnt > brought up to love hard work except school work as I went to boarding > school and unversity and I didnt even learn how to cook anything. Only > Srila Prabhupada"s great mercy has saved me from such useless decadent > life. I dont work very hard or lift heavy things, and I dont do marathons > in the rice fields, just spend some time there. But I love to work with > the cows and lifting cow dung is great and feeding them and taking care > of their health, and taking care late night if need be if a delivery > takes place and seeing the calf gets all it needs with his mother and > lifting the afterbirth. and putting it in the gobar gas. These are the > things workers cant be expected to do especially if they start early > morning too. Chanting 16 rounds must be there but direct service to the cows is essential to know them and have them know you . They are family. I have seen in the Juhu ISKCON temple that Srila Prabhupada's quarters are cleaned not by devotees but by hired hotel employees, So this idea is that the devotees are high class brahmins and so dont do menial service even to the Acarya what to speak of Krsna's cows. The Supreme Lord Himself herds the cows. This brahmin complex has been there from the very beginning as I have seen it, and not just recently from Hindu influence. your servant labangalatika dasi .. > your servant > labangalatika dasi > > > Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> > Cc: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> > Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:29 PM > Bullock drivers viewed as low class? > > > > Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. Still the broader question > > is: In Hindu society is it considered low-class to work the oxen? > > Whether the worker is a Muslim or a low-class Hindu or Dalit is a > > secondary consideration. > > > > In my case, my American spiritual master worked the oxen. But I wonder > > whether an ox worker would ever even be a spiritual master in Hindu > society? > > > > And, I remember at Gita-nagari, there was a devotee named Gudakesa, > > whose occupation was to shovel manure out of the barn. One time when he > > gave a Bhagavatam class he stated that "Devotional service is the > > internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord." This is the highest > > knowledge I have ever heard. But would this manure shoveller even have > > been allowed to present a Bhagavatam class in Hindu society? > > > > So what is the position of the bullock driver in Hindu society? Is he > > respected -- or is he disdained? If these workers are regarded with > > respect, perhaps you can give us some specific examples of people in > > this vocation who are well respected in Hindu society. In Hindu > > society, is it deemed appropriate for a cow herd or ox worker to > > publicly lecture on spiritual knowledge? > > > > So my question is not so much: Are ox-workers Muslims? Rather, it is: > > How are they regarded by Hindu society? > > > > And my point is that if farmers and laborers are generally regarded with > > disdain by Hindu society, then perhaps that is why Srila Prabhupada > > wanted to establish his concept of simple living and high thinking in > > the West rather than in India, because in the West there is still a > > vestige of respectability to hard work. Whereas, in a culture where > > those who work hard are held in disdain, then it would have been much > > more difficult for Srila Prabhupada to establish a lifestyle based on > > simple living and high thinking. > > > > Also, I found it interesting that you said you liked to do hands-on work > > with the cows, but your husband had discouraged you. Again, your > > description makes it sound like the western attitude of honoring hard > > work was present from your upbringing thus you enjoyed doing the work, > > but for your husband, who had been raised as a proper Hindu, that type > > of work was more of an object of disdain. Or do I misunderstand - was > > there some other reason why he thought it inappropriate for you to be > > engaged in hands-on work with the cows? > > > > ys > > hkdd > > > > > > > > Rosalie Malik wrote: > > > > > I dont know if you read my comment that what you have said that > farmers > > >who work the oxen in India are mostly Muslims is not at all true. You > > >must have got some impression from Mayapur which has a large Muslim > > >population, but for all India your impression is totally unfounded. > The > > >majority of farmers are Hindus who live in villages and they work hard. > > > > > > > > >>Srila Prabhupada was in India in 1977, when he determined to set out to > > >>the Gita-nagari to start varnasrama. Why did he want to go to the West? > > >> Wouldn't India have been better? > > >> > > >>The fact is, I'm gradually coming to see that he realized that the > > >>existence of Hindu tradition would be a large obstacle to the > > >>implementation of varnasrama and self-sufficient villages the way he > > >>envisioned it. Self-sufficient villages were going to require lots of > > >>physical labor and a clear understanding that one may just as easily go > > >>back to Godhead by engaging in sudra labor of building and collecting > > >>manure for Krsna's sake as by worshipping on the altar. > > >> > > >>But to traditional Hindus this concept was very hard to understand. > > >> Therefore, he wanted to go to the West, which at least had some > > >>vestiges that hard work could be a pious thing to do. > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ----------------------- > > To from this mailing list, send an email to: > > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 Labangalatika Prabhu, Thanks for taking the time and effort to present this complex perspective. It really is informative. One thing that strikes me about Srila Prabhupada was his unique perspective on religion, labor and social class. Religious leaders in general seem to go one of two ways: 1. Conservative, never questioning social order. Especially with top officials in wealthy religious institutions, this seems to be the case. 2. Radical, concentrating on social issues like feeding people and politics almost to the extent of losing focus of spiritual goals. It seems to me like Srila Prabhupada had a uniquely balanced perspective. He certainly never lost sight of the purpose of his life, which was to spread Krsna consciousness. On the other hand he was also able to point out how so-called religious differences were the result and continued effect of class differences. Sample quote: "The brahmanas hated the sudras like anything. So they became Muslims. Now India can fight it out together, Hindus and Muslims." (my paraphrase) He took pains to maintain that ISKCON was non-sectarian, and he addressed other religious leaders from that platform -- that he could appreciate they were worshipping the same Supreme Lord. He would encourage them according to what they were already doing, "You are chanting on your beads, I see. Why don't all Christians also chant like this?" You critique about the "brahmin complex" below was something that Srila Prabhupada was concerned about. By giving us a non-sectarian religion, he was hoping to leave the old class-hatred and religious politics behind and create a fresh start that would include all kinds of people. (A house where the whole world can live.) It seems like we have to be careful not to lose this fragile idea of a non-sectarian movement that he worked so hard to build. Then gradually, as real Krsna consciousness spreads, hatreds between brahmanas and sudras, between Hindus and Muslims, between Muslim and Jews, etc. can gradually be subdued. ys hkdd Rosalie Malik wrote: >- >Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net> >Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu> >Cc: Cow (Protection and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> >Sunday, February 22, 2004 4:41 PM >Re: Bullock drivers viewed as low class? > > > > >>Dear Hare Krsna devi dasi >> >>pamho agtSP. To the urban westernised middle class rural life means >>poverty and backwardness so they disdain it and shudder at the thought of >>it. they also look down on urban slum dwellers. Its normal in material >> >> >life > > >>for people to disdain those poorer than themselves. >>Famers however are respectable as they are self employed and mostly they >>have food security even though they may not have a lot of money. They do >>work the oxen themselves and clean their own cow sheds, They are vaisyas. >> >> >Only a devotee would give bhagwatam class and any devotee can whatever his >service but there isnt much point in a farmer giving the class if he isnt >a devotee. > > >>However in this area in monsoon when the rice paddies are flooded and >>muddy they do hire katkaris (tribals) to do the ploughing as it is such >>heavy work, and they hire them to take the cows grazing as everyone has to >>herd his cows and not let them in others rice fields to graze, They used >> >> >to > > >>keep a tribal boy at home and feed him and give him money for the whole >>rainy season to watch the cows so they could be free for field work too. >>But the tribals have become smart( chalu they call it) because the Xians >> >> >do > > >>instigate them not to cooperate in work, so many farmers feel they >> >> >cannot > > >>keep big herds for this reason, So these tribals are looked on with >> >> >disdain > > >>esp as they drink heavily . and those who work for money are not >> >> >respected much by those who work for themselves. Working with the bulls >is not considered low> class but under western influence young people dont >want to work on the> land but go to the city and earn money and get all the >things which are advertised. They believe they have become educated so >field work is beneath their dignity.People dont want to marry their >daughters into families who keep cattle as they dont want them to have to >work hard. > > >>My husband doesnt like me to do hands on work as he says I should >> >> >supervise > > >>but if I work I am just a worker like the others. Its the division of >>labour I guess and caste is there very much with the people. But it >>doesnt apply to me and a devotee can do any work, My father and >>grandfather were in India during the British Raj and I feel it is very >>unbecoming as a white person to come here and lord it over. like a >>colonial relic ( lady muck) >>I also feel I have to be able to do the work otherwise servants will >> >> >think > > >>we are totally dependent on them. . Even if they all leave I wish to >>be able to handle the cows. I t certainly would take all day. I wasnt >>brought up to love hard work except school work as I went to boarding >>school and unversity and I didnt even learn how to cook anything. >> >> >Only > > >>Srila Prabhupada"s great mercy has saved me from such useless >> >> >decadent > > >>life. I dont work very hard or lift heavy things, and I dont do >> >> >marathons > > >>in the rice fields, just spend some time there. But I love to work with >>the cows and lifting cow dung is great and feeding them and taking care >>of their health, and taking care late night if need be if a delivery >>takes place and seeing the calf gets all it needs with his mother and >>lifting the afterbirth. and putting it in the gobar gas. These are the >>things workers cant be expected to do especially if they start early >>morning too. Chanting 16 rounds must be there but direct service to the >> >> >cows is essential to know them and have them know you . They are family. > >I have seen in the Juhu ISKCON temple that Srila Prabhupada's quarters are >cleaned not by devotees but by hired hotel employees, So this idea is >that the devotees are high class brahmins and so dont do menial service >even to the Acarya what to speak of Krsna's cows. The Supreme Lord Himself >herds the cows. This brahmin complex has been there from the very >beginning as I have seen it, and not just recently from Hindu influence. >your servant >labangalatika dasi > >. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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