Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 - Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com Monday, January 5, 2004 1:20 pm Re: Keep on the subject > > >So far in all the proponents of these topics (since 1993) I have > not seen > the > >discussion get beyond bashing and actually presenting a concept > with > practical > >backing to correct our movement or institute a means of > establishing > varnasrama > >by which cow protection can reach the development that Srila > Prabhupada had > >envisioned. > ---- > > We need only one community where the temple president is a cowherd > or willing > to back a cowherd in a major way--we need one community in N. > America where > the management is cowherd-friendly or actually is willing to > understand the > purpose of the Hare Krishna rural community or is willing to > support such an > endeavor. I am thinking Alachua simply because there are many > devotees there > who > would be willing support a full scale ox-agriculture program and > to purchase > produce from ox power and protected milk (if there is excess to > sell). I'm so glad that you used the phraseology that Srila Prabhupada uses so often when discussing selling milk -- "if there is excess." Those of you who have a copy of the VedaBase will find it productive to do a search for milk excess The reason is that Srila Prabhupada specifically spoke against producing milk primarily for the market -- but he said it was permissable to sell milk "if there is excess" beyond what a devotee family could use. As all of you who have taken care of cows know, when the cow first has her calf, then she produces far more than one family can use. Later on the production falls to what they could use. Our painful practical experience has taught us the wisdom of Srila Prabhupada's instructions. When cows are bred primarily for milk production, then the bull calf is unwanted, and unfortunately is often abusively neglected or even sold. On the other hand, when the cow is bred to produce a traction animal to be trained, then the milk is simply a happy by-product of the process. One method of doing designing a program such as is proposed here, is that rather than focussing on just one family to provide a chief cowherd, to put 4 families on the land. Year one - family A would breed its cow. Year two - family B would breed a cow. Year three - family C would breed a cow. Year four - family D would breed a cow. And so on. That way, the milk production would level out over time. A good milker in Florida should be able to milk for at least 2 years. Ghee is probably the worst product to use for sale, since it represents the highest gallons of milk. Any ghee should probably be for the Deities and the families. But other products could be made for excess milk, beyond what is needed by the families and the Deities. The main thing however, would probably be ox-grown produce -- such as Chaya and Balabhadra distribute to their donors. When everything depends on one family, the pressure usually becomes too much. Better to have 4 families, so they have camaradarie and can help each other in different ways. They can also understand the difficulties of coordinating farm work with temple schedules and work out ways of accommodation. Also, if one family falls away for whatever reason, there are still others to keep up the momentum of the program and to welcome a new replacement. This would be a wonderful offering to the Deities: Here a 4 families engaging in cow protection and working their own patches of land. A goal could be to have one month per year in which the Deities are fed only with produce and grains produced by the oxen. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Also, > they are very close to the main highway in Florida (on the way to > Disney World) > > and the University of Florida. Also the growing season is long and > the soil > fertile, deep, and very easy to plow. That community is growing > every day in > every way except in the cow/ox protection field. It is not because > the devotees > > there do not want to see cow protection or participate, it is > because there is > no momentum there to fire it up. > > Their present cow situation is very manageable. We would only need > one person > to go there and stir things up with the residents, congregation, > and donors. > I was there a little over a year ago and everyone I spoke to > wanted to see a > thriving agriculture and goshalla program. Previously, in the > '80s, people > would stop and crowd the road in front of where the temple is now > just to watch > > the oxen plow the fields. Akinchina Krishna showed me pictures of > the community > > and the oxen that were published in Small Farmer's Journal around > 1985. > The management (when I was last there) was also favorable to the > idea. All we > would need is for the GBC an others (all of you) to endorse one > person (or > family) to go there, be supported, and get things started. If one > personstarted > full-time, organizing with fundraising (going into a cow-trust) to > get things > started, I believe it could very well happen. That community has > many > resources. I am willing to do it. I moved here (Iowa) only because > I had a > drive to > preach and be active (I did not want to simply go to mangal arotic > every day > and work in a warehouse while things remained stagnant or > deteriorated before > my > eyes). > > If done right, this cow/ox program would be the ultimate > preaching. It would > be a vedic model farm that, although started with the help > donations, would > become a sustainable, agriculturaly based program with oxen > supporting cows > (for > deity milk--[temple paying]) and growing excess veggies to support > themselves > and the overall program. Once sustainable, any donations would be > supplemental (and there would be a lot if the right fundraising > people were > involved--[Nrshinga Caitanya lives an hour away in Jacksonville]) > and help to > support more > families and individuals that would participate full or part-time. > There is an > enormous Vaisnava Youth resource there as well, with the Vaisnava > Academy for > Girls, the Charter School and the Day-School. It would be directly > educational for the North American second and third generation-- > the future. > There would > be plenty of supplemental volunteer help. There is also a lot of > land (and > devotee realtors) around that temple so expansion is possible. We > need to > organize it and follow through (the hard part) but this is my > goal. I can do > with > help and support. > > My reason for talking about it is not to talk about it for another > 10 years, > it is to do it. I know it sounds like a lot of talk, but you > should know that > I am a fanatic (sorry) when it comes to this endeavor. Sounds like a fanatic in the *best* sense of the word. For me, > discussion > leads to action--I will have to do it. I have been relatively > quiet since > leaving > NV, but my mind has been churning since that time with a single > focus -- to > right the wrong. With one model that is working in N. America, the > apathy and > pessimism in this movement, from the top down (or maybe from the > bottom up), > would be reversed. If devotees could see this happen, they would > understandthat > anything could happen, and Srila Prabhupada would smile at us all. > > So please forgive me if I talk, I only do so because I am going to > act and am > sharing my thoughts and feeling things out before hand. > > Ys Gopal dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 In a message dated 1/5/2004 1:17:04 PM Central Standard Time, npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: >Better to have 4 families, so they have camaradarie and can help each other in >different ways. They can also understand the difficulties of coordinating farm work >with temple schedules and work out ways of accommodation. Also, if one family >falls away for whatever reason, there are still others to keep up the momentum of >the program and to welcome a new replacement. ---- This is actually the plan once things get started and the program is able to maintain others. I thought to begin with one family because presenting the idea to support two or more families to administrators and donors I felt would scare them away outright. But at least two families for a medium temple situation is defniately in the plan--four would be that much better and the scheduling sounds great too. There is actually another family in Alachua who are willing--we talked about it a lot when I was there (we worked together in the warehouse). The devotee is from Nepal and his father was the cheif brahmin of his village and had over 100 cows which his children would herd (there, cow protection is also done my brahmins, not so much for business, but income was still and inevitable result). He has two children, a son who is my son's age and a daughter. His wife is from Poland. He is skilled in all forms of yajna and puja and is often called upon to participate in diety installations and family samskaras. He previously was a gurukula teacher in Mayapur and he and the kids would take care of the goshalla there. He would be a great assest to such a program here. Again, the reason I did not include more than one family initially is so as not to frighten the supporters in the beginning when they would be need the most-once it was off the ground... The focus would deffinately be on produce, (veggies/grains) and use of the oxen. For practical reasons I was thinking we would work the oxen from behind as was previously the custom in Alachua. My experience working an ox from the side was ok, but that was only for fetching firewood in NV. Working from behind reduces the need for an extra teamster to work the plow. I have noticed that in the US the shortage is on people, not oxen. The old pictures of Alachua showed multiple sets of up to six oxen being worked by one person each. As far as I know, where ever oxen have been the primary form of draft animal (meaning no horses or tractor to back the program up), they have been worked from behind. Again, thats just as far as I know. But the need for one human per team is real and great for any program in the US to work. What do you all think? Ys Gopal ------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 - Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com Monday, January 5, 2004 5:16 pm Re: Developing a cow-herd friendly community > In a message dated 1/5/2004 1:17:04 PM Central Standard Time, > npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: > >Better to have 4 families, so they have camaradarie and can help > each other > in >different ways. They can also understand the difficulties of > coordinating > farm work >with temple schedules and work out ways of > accommodation. Also, if > one family >falls away for whatever reason, there are still others > to keep up > the momentum of >the program and to welcome a new replacement. > ---- > > This is actually the plan once things get started and the program > is able to > maintain others. I thought to begin with one family because > presenting the > idea to support two or more families to administrators and donors > I felt would > scare them away outright. But at least two families for a medium > temple > situation is defniately in the plan--four would be that much > better and the scheduling > sounds great too. > > There is actually another family in Alachua who are willing--we > talked about > it a lot when I was there (we worked together in the warehouse). > The devotee > is from Nepal and his father was the cheif brahmin of his village > and had over > 100 cows which his children would herd (there, cow protection is > also done my > brahmins, not so much for business, but income was still and > inevitable > result). He has two children, a son who is my son's age and a > daughter. His wife is > from Poland. He is skilled in all forms of yajna and puja and is > often called > upon to participate in diety installations and family samskaras. > He previously > was a gurukula teacher in Mayapur and he and the kids would take > care of the > goshalla there. He would be a great assest to such a program here. > > Again, the reason I did not include more than one family initially > is so as > not to frighten the supporters in the beginning when they would be > need the > most-once it was off the ground... > > The focus would deffinately be on produce, (veggies/grains) and > use of the > oxen. For practical reasons I was thinking we would work the oxen > from behind as > was previously the custom in Alachua. My experience working an ox > from the > side was ok, but that was only for fetching firewood in NV. > Working from behind > reduces the need for an extra teamster to work the plow. I have > noticed that > in the US the shortage is on people, not oxen. The old pictures of > Alachua > showed multiple sets of up to six oxen being worked by one person > each. As far as > I know, where ever oxen have been the primary form of draft animal > (meaning no > horses or tractor to back the program up), they have been worked > from behind. > Again, thats just as far as I know. But the need for one human per > team is > real and great for any program in the US to work. What do you all > think? > Ys Gopal > > ------------------------------- I'm really not sure what you mean by working the animals from behind. I think it depends on the type of work you are doing. I have many photos from Gita-nagari which show oxen worked from behind, especially for haying and hauling wood, but also for plowing. But I also have many pictures which show the teamster working from the side. So, I'm not positive what you are talking about. Walking next to the oxen is definitely an ancient practice, as there is sculptural evidence in different cultures around the world, such as on Egyptian reliefs. Perhaps you are talking about deciding whether to use nose rings versus whether to use voice commands. I notice a photo in an old ISKCON Farm Newsletter (Vol 3, No 2, 1984) which shows Sastra prabhu and Vrajajana prabhu driving the New Ramana Reti oxen using nose rings. It looks like each teamster has a set of 4 oxen abreast. But the same newsletter shows several photos of Gita-nagari oxen being driven from behind for plowing and disking. Each of the Gita-nagari teamsters is also driving four oxen single-handedly with no other help. So the manpower required is just the same. The subject of nose-rings versus voice commands is certainly a sensitive one in ISKCON, and I must say that I respect devotees who are using nose rings or nose ropes rather than not working the oxen at all. Some of them are our most dedicated cowherds. One plus for nose rings might be that if your potential co-worker is Indian, he may be more accustomed to that. But, since you are setting up your program in America, I hope you will also give serious thought to the points in favor of using voice commands. 1. Paramananda Prabhu, ISKCON's first Minister of Agriculture, wrote up detailed instructions on how to train oxen using voice commands. Srila Prabhupada had great confidence in Paramananda as one of ISKCON's most competent men in managing a farm. Also, Balabhadra Prabhu, ISKCON's current Minister of Cow Protection and Agriculture, has presented updated instructions on how to train oxen using voice commands. Certainly, the opinion of these two experts on cow protection should be carefully considered. 2. In terms of preaching, I think it would be ideal if Hare Krsna youth could compete against other youngsters in 4-H ox events, etc. But, if you use nose rings or nose ropes, that would not be possible, because 4-H events do not allow competitors to use nose rings or nose ropes. They cannot even use a lead rope. They may use a very small goad stick, but they get higher points the less that they use it. The ideal standard is that the animals should be driven mostly by voice. 3. Also in terms of preaching, I am certain that you would find much less acceptance from the public for nose ropes or nose rings than Sastra prabhu did twenty years ago. Many members of the animal rights movement would consider them cruel. 4. Evidentally modern animal rights advocates are not alone, in the Mahabharata, Bhishmadeva's Instructions to Yuddhistira on Cow Protection state (Mahabharata: Anusasana Parva, Section XXIII) They who live by selling hair, they who subsist by selling poisons, and they who live by selling milk, have to sink in hell. ....They who set bullocks to work before the animals attain to sufficient age, they who bore the noses of bullocks and other animals for controlling them better while employed in work, and they who keep animals always tethered, have to sink in hell. 5. When the animal's nose in pierced, there is a danger, especially when worked by an inexperienced teamster, that the nose ring will rip out, tearing the nostril. I read in the Small Farm Journal that when that happens in Cuba, they simply send the animal to slaughter. After reading that article, I made up my mind to try to get Paramananda's ox training instructions translated into Spanish so that at least some Cuban oxen can be saved from this trajic fate. (I'm involved in a local sister cities group with a small village in Cuba.) 6. When the ox's nose is pierced, he can experience pain at any moment -- even when he is doing what he is supposed to be doing. This is painfully evident when oxen are being led by the nose. In my own experience at Gita-nagari, the working oxen are friendly and anxious to greet people. They are always hoping to go out and work. (It's their excitement.) I'm not sure whether it's always the case, but I've seen videos where the teamster has a difficult time yoking up oxen that have nose rings. They seem to shy away from him, even though he's been working them for years. And when he pulled on their reigns, to lead them to the yokes, it was very clear they were in pain. And this is a devotee who was considered an expert and had years of experience. 7. You are concerned about the number of workers for your project, but if you make the decision to use nose rings, you are eliminating over 50% of your potential workers. Why is that? Because to work oxen using nose rings it takes more physical strength than to work them with voice commands. Using voice commands, both women and children can participate in working the oxen, but I don't think it would be very safe for people with small bodies to work oxen using nose rings. Just a couple months ago at the Maine Organic Farmers and Growers fair I saw a nine year old girl win an obstacle course competition with her team of oxen (steers). I'm sure she could never have done those maneuvers if she had a team with nose rings. For one thing, she would have had to stand dangerously close to them just to hold the reigns. Some people complain that training an ox using voice commands is too difficult, but after seeing so many 8-12 year old boys and girls handle their ox teams without even a lead rope, I just have to wonder how these kids could be so much more skillful than a grown-up teamster. 8. Use of nose rings and reigns severely limits the fexibility of oxen, especially in the woods, where the reigns can easily become tangled. I have read an account of one Yankee woodsman who used his team of oxen to haul fire wood to a sled. He then piled all the wood onto the sled and sent the oxen home, a quarter mile down the road, while he stayed in the woods and cut more trees. Not possible with reigns. 9. Use of nose rings and reigns is much looked down upon by most American ox teamsters. Right now, as noted previously, places like Tillers and BerryBrook think that Hare Krsna's are ox power experts. This could quickly change if we change over to nose rings. Somehow, you may still find reasons why you prefer to use nose rings, but I hope you will take these considerations seriously. I think it could be a big mistake to ailienate the public, who may think that using nose rings is cruel, but I think it could be even more of a mistake to adopt a technique which shuts out the very kids whom we should be bringing into the practice of ox power -- while they are young and impressionable. So please think carefully before making a final choice. I'm sure we'll hear from other devotees on this as well. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Thank you very much for this valuable feedback. I had considered working oxen by the nose (ropes preferred) mostly because this is what I saw in India even with children. Pandit from Vrindavan Goshalla is great example. He is the most gentle animal I ever met and I was very surprised when I found he was still a bull. I also know that they use rings at the Manor and I believe in New Vraja Dhama as well with success. The responsibility is on the teamster not to abuse the sense of control--to keep a respectful relationship with the ox and use the rains as a supplement to voice commands. A major consideration, as you pointed out, would be the preaching and the message it would send to others, especially animal rights people and vegans. I have taken note of this for hte US, especially since the focus for me would be preaching as well as ag-production. Seeing the animal bound by the nose certainly gives one the image of forced toil or slavery, (the Assyrians would pierce the cheeks of their human captives and chain them together before marching them away to a life of slavery). I was actually trained by Balabhadra Prabhu in NV. But I never saw that we were able to work the animals from behind. There was always the need to have the teamster right next to them to give the commands. It is certainly (and most likely) the case that my ox (Pita) and I were not the most disciplined in our working relationship; we did not work very often and Pita (and I) preferred to sit in the barn and eat. I tried to rig something with ropes attached to his halter so that I could work form behind, but we always got tangled and he didn't like it much. I have seen pictures of oxen worked with bits like horses and if it has been done previously using only voice commands then we could try that; my preferring to work form behind would not necessitate the piercing of this nose in such a case (which I would like to avoid anyway). The use of voice commands, I feel, would always be the primary guide. I was also considering safety. My ox once bolted when I tripped in the snow hauling a log and I almost got creamed--I wouldn't want that to happen with a disc-harrow. If you are behind or on the implement I feel it would be much safer (of course I realize that dragging is always a danger--Varsana Swami told me some stories of being dragged into the woods by startled Belgians). My main concern is that which ever way is adopted it gets the job done full-scale and is successful; that the tractors could be abandoned completely. Not that the tractors are bailing hay for the oxen. -Gopal --------------------- In a message dated 1/5/2004 6:15:32 PM Central Standard Time, npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes: I'm really not sure what you mean by working the animals from behind. I think it depends on the type of work you are doing. I have many photos from Gita-nagari which show oxen worked from behind, especially for haying and hauling wood, but also for plowing. But I also have many pictures which show the teamster working from the side. So, I'm not positive what you are talking about. Walking next to the oxen is definitely an ancient practice, as there is sculptural evidence in different cultures around the world, such as on Egyptian reliefs. Perhaps you are talking about deciding whether to use nose rings versus whether to use voice commands. I notice a photo in an old ISKCON Farm Newsletter (Vol 3, No 2, 1984) which shows Sastra prabhu and Vrajajana prabhu driving the New Ramana Reti oxen using nose rings. It looks like each teamster has a set of 4 oxen abreast. But the same newsletter shows several photos of Gita-nagari oxen being driven from behind for plowing and disking. Each of the Gita-nagari teamsters is also driving four oxen single-handedly with no other help. So the manpower required is just the same. The subject of nose-rings versus voice commands is certainly a sensitive one in ISKCON, and I must say that I respect devotees who are using nose rings or nose ropes rather than not working the oxen at all. Some of them are our most dedicated cowherds. One plus for nose rings might be that if your potential co-worker is Indian, he may be more accustomed to that. But, since you are setting up your program in America, I hope you will also give serious thought to the points in favor of using voice commands. 1. Paramananda Prabhu, ISKCON's first Minister of Agriculture, wrote up detailed instructions on how to train oxen using voice commands. Srila Prabhupada had great confidence in Paramananda as one of ISKCON's most competent men in managing a farm. Also, Balabhadra Prabhu, ISKCON's current Minister of Cow Protection and Agriculture, has presented updated instructions on how to train oxen using voice commands. Certainly, the opinion of these two experts on cow protection should be carefully considered. 2. In terms of preaching, I think it would be ideal if Hare Krsna youth could compete against other youngsters in 4-H ox events, etc. But, if you use nose rings or nose ropes, that would not be possible, because 4-H events do not allow competitors to use nose rings or nose ropes. They cannot even use a lead rope. They may use a very small goad stick, but they get higher points the less that they use it. The ideal standard is that the animals should be driven mostly by voice. 3. Also in terms of preaching, I am certain that you would find much less acceptance from the public for nose ropes or nose rings than Sastra prabhu did twenty years ago. Many members of the animal rights movement would consider them cruel. 4. Evidentally modern animal rights advocates are not alone, in the Mahabharata, Bhishmadeva's Instructions to Yuddhistira on Cow Protection state (Mahabharata: Anusasana Parva, Section XXIII) They who live by selling hair, they who subsist by selling poisons, and they who live by selling milk, have to sink in hell. ....They who set bullocks to work before the animals attain to sufficient age, they who bore the noses of bullocks and other animals for controlling them better while employed in work, and they who keep animals always tethered, have to sink in hell. 5. When the animal's nose in pierced, there is a danger, especially when worked by an inexperienced teamster, that the nose ring will rip out, tearing the nostril. I read in the Small Farm Journal that when that happens in Cuba, they simply send the animal to slaughter. After reading that article, I made up my mind to try to get Paramananda's ox training instructions translated into Spanish so that at least some Cuban oxen can be saved from this trajic fate. (I'm involved in a local sister cities group with a small village in Cuba.) 6. When the ox's nose is pierced, he can experience pain at any moment -- even when he is doing what he is supposed to be doing. This is painfully evident when oxen are being led by the nose. In my own experience at Gita-nagari, the working oxen are friendly and anxious to greet people. They are always hoping to go out and work. (It's their excitement.) I'm not sure whether it's always the case, but I've seen videos where the teamster has a difficult time yoking up oxen that have nose rings. They seem to shy away from him, even though he's been working them for years. And when he pulled on their reigns, to lead them to the yokes, it was very clear they were in pain. And this is a devotee who was considered an expert and had years of experience. 7. You are concerned about the number of workers for your project, but if you make the decision to use nose rings, you are eliminating over 50% of your potential workers. Why is that? Because to work oxen using nose rings it takes more physical strength than to work them with voice commands. Using voice commands, both women and children can participate in working the oxen, but I don't think it would be very safe for people with small bodies to work oxen using nose rings. Just a couple months ago at the Maine Organic Farmers and Growers fair I saw a nine year old girl win an obstacle course competition with her team of oxen (steers). I'm sure she could never have done those maneuvers if she had a team with nose rings. For one thing, she would have had to stand dangerously close to them just to hold the reigns. Some people complain that training an ox using voice commands is too difficult, but after seeing so many 8-12 year old boys and girls handle their ox teams without even a lead rope, I just have to wonder how these kids could be so much more skillful than a grown-up teamster. 8. Use of nose rings and reigns severely limits the fexibility of oxen, especially in the woods, where the reigns can easily become tangled. I have read an account of one Yankee woodsman who used his team of oxen to haul fire wood to a sled. He then piled all the wood onto the sled and sent the oxen home, a quarter mile down the road, while he stayed in the woods and cut more trees. Not possible with reigns. 9. Use of nose rings and reigns is much looked down upon by most American ox teamsters. Right now, as noted previously, places like Tillers and BerryBrook think that Hare Krsna's are ox power experts. This could quickly change if we change over to nose rings. Somehow, you may still find reasons why you prefer to use nose rings, but I hope you will take these considerations seriously. I think it could be a big mistake to ailienate the public, who may think that using nose rings is cruel, but I think it could be even more of a mistake to adopt a technique which shuts out the very kids whom we should be bringing into the practice of ox power -- while they are young and impressionable. So please think carefully before making a final choice. I'm sure we'll hear from other devotees on this as well. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 As expected perhaps I thought I would drop in a few pennies worth from the Manor perspective regarding working oxen from behind (nasal harnessing). Some of the arguments against the use of nasal harnessing are a bias based on specifics of local habit. For example in the USA teamsters seam to use oxen primarily for competition (at least the significant part of Drew conways books deal with this aspect) and for them part of the show is not using ropes or reins or rings or nasal harnessing. So if you want to appeal to USA teamsters you will not get much mileage from the USA if you use Nasal harnessing. Using oxen for logging using nasal harnessing. At the Manor we would hitch our (nasal harnessed) oxen onto a buggy and haul any logs (if we ever hauled logs) hitched to the buggy. The oxen and buggy driven with nasal harnessing enables pinpoint accuracy with driving. At the Manor we plough, cultivate land, drive ox wagons loaded with other peoples children, navigate thin paths through rows of cars all with nasal harnessing driven from behind. My thoughts are that transporting other peoples children without nasal harnessing would be irresponsible and dangerous. Oxen can spook from many unsuspected events. Nasal harnessing is much safer in these occurences. In other words nasal harnessing seams to open up more opportunities for using the oxen. The Hungarian farm are working six teams all using nasal harnessing (admittedly they copied the Manor system). In a recent book about ploughing equipment in the USA I purchased all the ploughs were driven by teams of horses harnessed using the bit in the mouth. All the horses were driven from behind. It is possible to plough using 3 teams of oxen and one man with a double furrowed plough because I saw a video of such a thing in Gita Nagari. In other words both things are possible. Somehow work the oxen this is the thing. If you want to do it withour ropes and rings do it. If you want to do it with ropes and rings do it. Somehow work the oxen whilst the debates go on of merits of both systems. I was trained in nasal harnessing and I am convinced by it. There are other quotes 'No question of independance, a horse or a bull is bound by its nose and the driver, as he pushes and pulls on the rope it has to go according to that' Srila Prabhupada lecture on the srimad Bhagavatam toronto 1976 'Like bulls obliged to move according to the direction of a driver pulling on ropes knotted to their noses' Srimad Bhagavatam 5.1.14 ys syam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 A fair enough reply. The only thing I might add is one of the main ways that Drew Conroy is involved in ox power it to teach improved methods to people in third world countries. I doubt if any of those people are using their oxen for showing at fairs. Their main goal is to produce food to eat. He's teaching them how to do that with voice commands. In some places in Africa there may be a strong tradition of cattle raising. In some places a man's principal ox is so important that he may even sometimes kill himself if that ox dies. Bruno Novelli describes this in his books. Nevertheless, in spite of all their cattle, they had no tradition of working the oxen. That was only introduced by the British in the 1900's. My boss's husband did economic development research in Africa in the 1970s. He said that development workers were trying to get Africans to work their oxen. The big reason why they did not want to do it was because to them their oxen were so important that they couldn't bear the idea of putting them through the pain of inserting a nose ring. (The British had brought workers from India to show Africans how to work the oxen.) But when Tillers went to Africa, they were teaching voice commands, so the original objection was removed, and the practice of using the oxen could spread more quickly. This all goes back to your main point. Traditions vary from place to place. They need to be taken into account, but you don't need to be ruled by them. It has to be admitted that the Bhaktivedanta Manor program is probably one one ISKCON's best cow protection programs in the world. So the basic message is, figure out what is most appropriate in your situation, then with a nose ring or without a nose ring, somehow work the oxen. ys hkdd Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK) wrote: >As expected perhaps I thought I would drop in a few pennies worth from the >Manor perspective regarding working oxen from behind (nasal harnessing). > >Some of the arguments against the use of nasal harnessing are a bias based >on specifics of local habit. For example in the USA teamsters seam to use >oxen primarily for competition (at least the significant part of Drew >conways books deal with this aspect) and for them part of the show is not >using ropes or reins or rings or nasal harnessing. So if you want to appeal >to USA teamsters you will not get much mileage from the USA if you use Nasal >harnessing. > >Using oxen for logging using nasal harnessing. At the Manor we would hitch >our (nasal harnessed) oxen onto a buggy and haul any logs (if we ever hauled >logs) hitched to the buggy. The oxen and buggy driven with nasal harnessing >enables pinpoint accuracy with driving. > At Gita-nagari, the oxen go right into the uncharted woods, with no buggy. Once the logs are hooked up to them, they go crashing through the trees back to their loading place -- with no one really driving them. At least this is what I saw when Sita and Rasalla were using them to get firewood. > >At the Manor we plough, cultivate land, drive ox wagons loaded with other >peoples children, navigate thin paths through rows of cars all with nasal >harnessing driven from behind. My thoughts are that transporting other >peoples children without nasal harnessing would be irresponsible and >dangerous. > We did it at Gita-nagari all the time. I guess the thing is that the oxen must be very well trained. In fact, they probably used the most reliable oxen for the Sunday ox cart rides. Kids would always go up and pet the oxen. (Though the driver would caution them to stay away from the horns.) When the driver laid the lash down in front of the oxen, they would stay in the same place for 20 minutes or more not daring to move one step forward. They did not seem spookable. I remember being amazed at their tolerance when we had to brush manure out of their coats in the winter, pounding on them and pulling their hair. I don't know if it was because of voice training, it might have been simply that Brown Swiss are a docile breed. ys hkdd >Oxen can spook from many unsuspected events. Nasal harnessing is >much safer in these occurences. In other words nasal harnessing seams to >open up more opportunities for using the oxen. > >The Hungarian farm are working six teams all using nasal harnessing >(admittedly they copied the Manor system). > >In a recent book about ploughing equipment in the USA I purchased all the >ploughs were driven by teams of horses harnessed using the bit in the mouth. >All the horses were driven from behind. It is possible to plough using 3 >teams of oxen and one man with a double furrowed plough because I saw a >video of such a thing in Gita Nagari. > >In other words both things are possible. Somehow work the oxen this is the >thing. If you want to do it withour ropes and rings do it. If you want to do >it with ropes and rings do it. Somehow work the oxen whilst the debates go >on of merits of both systems. > >I was trained in nasal harnessing and I am convinced by it. > >There are other quotes > >'No question of independance, a horse or a bull is bound by its nose and the >driver, as he pushes and pulls on the rope it has to go according to that' >Srila Prabhupada lecture on the srimad Bhagavatam toronto 1976 > >'Like bulls obliged to move according to the direction of a driver pulling >on ropes knotted to their noses' Srimad Bhagavatam 5.1.14 > >ys syam > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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