The role of personal behavior and choices in jyotish

[Guest guest]

Hello List,

 

I live in California and I have never been to India. I

have never formally studied Jyotish. I have read some

books, but these were all written by western authors.

They were "cook books" about what different planetary

positions and aspects mean. But you cannot get from

this the "flavor" of the mind set behind Jyotish. You

probably can't get much of anything authentic at all.

 

I have also never had a reading by an Indian

astrologer (ignoring for the moment Yogi Karve whom I

apparently put to sleep). So I do not really know what

a "traditional" reading is like (if such a thing

exists).

 

What I would like to know, if someone cares to say,

is:

 

Does our personal behavior, habits and choices carry

any weight in a reading? Or is it mostly acceptance of

fate?

 

I am NOT asking about Fate versus Free Will. At least

I don't think I am. If I am, then never mind, because

that's just a very old argument.

 

I'll give an example of what I'm asking. Say you have

someone who wants to know if they will get a promotion

at work. Most responses I've seen onlist (and I

realize people are pressed for time) is either yes or

no followed by a time frame.

 

But I do not see anyone saying how the person needs to

change their behavior to get said promotion. Or how

their current behavior is blocking their promotion.

Like, saying Saturn in their chart is casting an

aspect at Mercury. Lots of ways for them to be

expressing this energy. Assuming I knew anything about

Saturn-Mercury behavior - let's say they gossip at

work, are constantly critical of others, or spend all

their time complaining about work but not actually

working. While perhaps they COULD disipline themselves

to express this energy by only speaking at work about

plans to improve work. How to budget better. How to

organize the work flow more efficiently or something

along those lines. Since this change in behavior would

naturally require a lot of discipline to create a new

habit, well next November would be a good time to

implement the new plan because Saturn-Mercury are

getting good aspects.

 

See what I mean? Sometimes, it seems like people are

just waiting until "November" so that said promotion

will just fall in their lap, but they aren't doing

anything to BE the person who would quite naturally be

promoted because who WOULDN'T promote such a

contributor?

 

Anyway, I think I'm making some wild assumptions based

on readings I see onlist.

 

I would really like to understand the mindset. It is

foreign to me, but I'd like to learn to understand it.

Afterall, if one's personal choices were just guided

by fate - how does one parent properly? Anyway, that's

another subject.

 

If anyone has any insight for me - I'd love to hear

it.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

For me this is fate. I'm a fatalist.

 

I'll explain using your example, my opinion.

 

The change in behavior requisite required of any change in responses to

behaviors such as rises in status at work place, are ALSO a part of what is

GOING to happen to GET the coming IMPROVEMENT which is also fate, so both

are fate, that is my opinion.

 

I have that opinion from watching and seeing that the systems we live in

provide all of like:

 

Impetus for change of behavior

Means to change behavior

Ideas of what behaviors to change

The circumstances of the change

Then the change just "ker-plunks" into place

 

My opinion, from guilelessly self adored well functioning pattern watching I

think I am enjoying in my head.

 

Otherwise, the usual pains in life continue.

 

It's true that in Hinduland the behaviorals are not discussed so much...one

reason is the multi-cultural multi-religious very private nature about

private matters that is used in the aristocratic religious circles of India,

and is thus reflected in the way and tone of brahminical sciences

writings...

 

In English: Yah, Indians talk like you described, Mary, and so Westerners

learning their sciences from them follow suit.

 

Western Astrology Speaking sounds different, because it doesn't have the

brahmin root and connection we have.

 

Time will change this, but time it will take.

 

Satisfied, is what you are now.

 

Guileless, is one of my names now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reeshart Mach Aeoidh

 

aka Das Goravani

 

das (AT) goravani (DOT) com

 

 

Secure online ordering of

Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 (JS3)

For Hindu Astrology Software and Lessons (Jyotish)

 

 

 

For Original Celtic Art Paintings

http://www.goravani.com/art.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or

Please use email if at all possible ­ I usually cannot answer the phone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mary Quinn wrote:

 

>See what I mean? Sometimes, it seems like people are

>just waiting until "November" so that said promotion

>will just fall in their lap, but they aren't doing

>anything to BE the person who would quite naturally be

>promoted because who WOULDN'T promote such a

>contributor?

>

>

>

 

Hi Mary,

 

I agree with Ashutosh in his previous answer to you--"behaviour and

thinking cannot be changed easily". Working assiduously and steadily

for a lifetime may be required to change certain types of behavior

patterns--and that may happen only if a person has come to understand by

many failures that certain behaviors are in need of rectification.

 

To "BE" the person who would be promoted, one must first have an

awareness of what qualifications or attributes such a person must

possess and then to reflect back on oneself to see where he is lacking

in these things. Not an easy thing to do if one's inherent nature needs

a complete 'overhaul'.

 

Often we may be thinking of an example where a person who is lacking in

some desired quality for success, may simply, by applying himself, gain

the required attribute or behavior he is seeking.

It sounds reasonable enough--but remember this idea is being proposed

by someone who probably already has many of these more 'positive'

qualities already 'built in' so to speak.

 

If the person is "waiting until November", then he probably has a basic

nature that supports this behavior. Otherwise, a person with many

enthusiastic and hard working planetary placements will naturally be

applying himself to fit the position and more aggressively be seeking

out success. Since he already is in possession of certain attributes,

he can easily see exactly what is required and then with a certain

amount of direction and effort, place himself in a position to be promoted.

 

To give another example: how about taking a person who from an early

age displays a disciplined, logical, responsible, positive and

enthusiastic attitude toward life. This is supported in his chart by a

strong and well placed Saturn, Mercury and Jupiter. How about now

recommending to this person that he change his behavior to become lazy,

shiftless, unproductive, pessimistic and cynical. Naturally we wouldn't

do this, but with practice and a desire to change, do you think this

person could accomplish such a 'negative' feat?

 

First, he would have to be able to imagine what it would be like to act

and desire in such a way--and it would naturally go against all his

inborn instincts. I doubt that he could envision such a state of mind in

the first place--it simply wouldn't be in his 'vocabulary' so to speak.

 

One of my teachers used to say: "If you want to GET something else in

life, first you must BE something else. This 'BE-ING' implies a

fundamental change at the very core of oneself--not an easy thing at all.

 

 

Best,

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Das, John, David, Stephen, Ashutosh and Stephen

again,

 

Thanks for your answers to my post. See below:

 

--- Das Goravani <das (AT) goravani (DOT) com> wrote:

 

> The change in behavior requisite required of any

> change in responses to behaviors such as rises

> in status at work place, are ALSO a part of what

> is GOING to happen to GET the coming IMPROVEMENT

> which is also fate, so both are fate, that is my

> opinion.

>

> Impetus for change of behavior

> Means to change behavior

> Ideas of what behaviors to change

> The circumstances of the change

> Then the change just "ker-plunks" into place

 

Hi Rick,

 

You know, I had a lot of trouble wrapping my mind

around the idea of "fate" in the role of change. Yet,

oddly, somehow, what you wrote did work for me and I

WAS satisfied. I guess because of your list of changes

which come before the change "ker-plunks". I agree

that each of those steps are necessary and now can see

that the timing for the impetus, the means, the ideas

and the circumstances could be fated to happen.

 

So many times I have wanted to instigate a change and

COULDN'T. It certainly wasn't for lack of wanting -

it's just that the drive wasn't there. The reasoning

was, but the passion wasn't. Yet other times, WHAM, I

could move a mountain. So, I understand the fated

thing. Thanks for the way you worded that.

 

 

--- John <jr_esq > wrote:

 

> Personal behaviour is actually the manifested form

> of our thinking. To change the behaviour, one

> needs to change the thinking process. However, our

> thinking is produced by the mind which is a

> mechanical system that is subjected to the

> various impulses of Nature (the gunas).

>

> Thought is matter and as such is conditioned.

> That is, it imposes limitation on a person's

> perspective.

>

> Therefore, thought as a basis for changing behaviour

> is not the answer to the world problems. The

> answer to changing behaviour is the eradication

> of thoughts! In other words, we need to stay

> close to our true Self. The rishis of the past

> have referred to this as bliss consciousness,

> Nothingness, or Emptiness. As such, we can be

> nourished by the fountain of creation, the power of

> the divine.

 

Hi John,

 

I was following along just fine with 'the limitation

thought places on our perspective', when you veared

off into war and lost me. I was thinking about

personal changes in one's life not world changes.

Yeah, I know they are related and one affects the

other, but have a heart and understand that I'm still

learning to crawl so no fair running in circles around

me!

 

I'd like to say that I'm spiritually advanced enough

to understand how to not bump into walls while

eradicating thought, but I'm really not. Could you

explain to me, say, in SMALL words, how I could change

my personal behavior by eradicating thought? I really

am interested, despite the jokes that pop into my mind

when I try to assume bliss consciousness! So say you

were trying to "stay close to your true self", how

would you do that without thought? What do you DO

while waiting to be nourished by the fountain of

creation?

 

 

--- Steven Stuckey <shastra (AT) gotsky (DOT) com> wrote:

 

> I now advise students to find the first thing in the

> chart that grabs their attention and go from there-

> following their respective natural inclinations.

>

> In my opinion, reading a chart is similar to meeting

> a person for the first time--something about them

> will focus your attention to a specific area--

> perhaps their particular gait, a hand gesture, a

> certain air of confidence or insecurity etc. That

> initial 'meeting' or focus of attention will serve

> as a key to unlock the entire personality just as

> it will serve to guide you through the rest of

> the chart.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I like your advice. When I look at a chart, I

sometimes get lucky and some THING just pops out at me

and I grab it and run. Maybe that's the only thing I

have any opinion on, so that's all I can say. Other

times, NOTHING says anything to me. (Good thing I'm

not a professional astrologer - I'd starve.) Anyway,

in a class I took long ago, they had a "plan". You

looked at certain things in the chart and looked at

them in a certain order. Well, I did that with dozens

of charts in that class. All I ended up with were a

lot of lists but nothing that sounded remotely like

the person.

 

Anyway, I agree with you.

 

--- astrologerashutosh <astrologerashutosh (AT) (DOT) fr>

wrote:

 

> One should focus on getting a personality picture

> first, from a horoscope. Then the actions and

> exact implications of the actions can be judged

> easily.

>

> About Mary's question of advising one to

> bring changes in behaviour, it is always tried by

> the astrologers, but the truth remains that

> behaviour and thinking cannot be changed easily

> unless and untill the planetary transits and dashas

> support the change.

 

Hi Ashutosh,

 

It sounds very much like you are agreeing with Das but

in different words. If you get a personality picture

from the chart, well that's the personality you were

fated with. And if you are going to successfully

change your behavior and thinking then you'll need

those fated planetary transits -- or a very large and

intimidating "personal trainer" who yells at you and

carries a very big stick! Of course the transits

probably allow for them, too.

 

Well, I gotta say that this personal change thing is

darned difficult. But any bad habit can be changed if

you want it badly enough, and I guess my personal

transits are all lined up right now. I guess that

means that change is possible, not that it's easy.

But, not changing has it's own difficult demons.

 

--- Steven Stuckey <shastra (AT) gotsky (DOT) com> wrote:

 

> Often we may be thinking of an example where a

> person who is lacking in some desired quality for

> success, may simply, by applying himself, gain

> the required attribute or behavior he is seeking.

> It sounds reasonable enough--but remember this idea

> is being proposed by someone who probably already

> has many of these more 'positive' qualities

> already 'built in' so to speak.

>

> To give another example: how about taking a person

> who from an early age displays a disciplined,

> logical, responsible, positive and enthusiastic

> attitude toward life. This is supported in his

> chart by a strong and well placed Saturn, Mercury

> and Jupiter. How about now recommending to this

> person that he change his behavior to become lazy,

> shiftless, unproductive, pessimistic and cynical.

> Naturally we wouldn't do this, but with practice

> and a desire to change, do you think this person

> could accomplish such a 'negative' feat?

>

> First, he would have to be able to imagine what it

> would be like to act and desire in such a way--

> and it would naturally go against all his inborn

> instincts. I doubt that he could envision such a

> state of mind in the first place--it simply

> wouldn't be in his 'vocabulary' so to speak.

>

> One of my teachers used to say: "If you want to GET

> something else in life, first you must BE something

> else. This 'BE-ING' implies a fundamental change

> at the very core of oneself--not an easy thing at

> all.

 

Hi Stephen (again)

 

I like your teacher's quote. Thank you for that. I got

one out of a book that says more or less the same

thing: "No one chooses a different path till he feels

differently about himself" (Elizabeth George). It's

amazing how much of our behavior comes from how we

feel about ourselves.

 

I really liked your example of the disciplined person

you then ask to become lazy. By the end of your email

I was feeling unreasonable and somewhat stupid until I

suddenly realized that (clearly, Obi Wan, 'The Force'

is NOT strong around my weak, easily misled mind) this

was not what I was proposing.

 

I was unclear, see. Say your disciplined, productive,

motivated person lives a certain percentage of their

life being true to their active and positive selves.

Then SOMETHING happens. An accident, a death in the

family, a depression, it doesn't matter. There must be

thousands of ways Mr/Ms Productive can be derailed. So

some time passes and this person picks up some bad

habits: lazy, pessimistic, blah, blah. So they "wake

up" one day (yea, transits!) and realize they aren't

being true to themselves. They aren't lazy and

pessimistic at heart, they've just been in a bad

patch. So they decide to return to their former

selves.

 

Ah, but bad habits are darned hard to break.

 

Rather like learning a new language - it's easy while

you are child, and much more difficult and requires

more discipline when done as an adult.

 

So in a way it comes down to the question of which

"self" is Mr/Ms Productive? The earlier Positive self,

or the later Negative self? Who knows, but if said

person believes in their bones that they are the

former, isn't it conceivable that they could change

themselves back, or at least closer than they are now?

Afterall, that earlier way of thinking is still there

mired somewhere in the brain.

 

I agree with you that changing the fundamental self

that has been as it is for the entire life (or the

majority) is "mostly" unchangeable - baring some major

life changing event outside one's control.

 

As Ashutosh said, you have to "read" the personality

first. I guess in my promotion at work example, I was

assuming that the worker who was waiting for

"November" was in SOME way qualified and wouldn't get

laughed out of the building if they suggested being

promoted.

 

Well, thanks Das, John, David, Ashutosh and Stephen

for your input!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Das,

 

Not sure if this the correct forum but I have a serious bug in the software

that is preventing me from being able to enter City and Country informaiton

for clients from Trininidad and other countrues in the West Indies. I have a

few customers patiently waiting for charts and I cant find a fix for it. Can

you or anyone on the alias tell me how to correct this issue? I think that

I have the 2 dot something version of the software, I bought it late 2004

early 2005.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated

S-aungkh