Guest guest Posted October 22, 1999 Report Share Posted October 22, 1999 > > > and coupled with this one > > SB 7.14.9...One should treat animals such as deer, camels, asses, monkeys, > mice, snakes, birds and flies exactly like ones's own son. How little > difference ther actually is between children and these innocent animals. > (Purport).......For example in the agricultural fields there may be many > mice, flies and other creatures that disturb production, and sometimes they > are killed by pesticides. In this verse, however, such killing is forbidden. > Every living entity should be nourished by the fodd given by the Supreme > Personality of Godhead..... > > it seams clear that for vaisnavs ther can be no plan to kill slugs. Well, I just am unable to live with that. I accept the no insecticides wholeheartedly, and fully endorse that. I also accept the priciple of no unnecessary killing. I do add lots of organic material, I don't use chemical fertilizers to kill gazillions of soil bacteria and make weak artificial overgrowth. But the simple reality is if I don't control pests, I will get nothing. Perhaps there are ecological systems where such practices are doable, but not the one I live in. I admire it as an ideal, but for me it simply isn't even an option. Either I control pests, or I am buying from the store. The foods in the store are grown with chemical fertilizers and pesticides, so by doing my own control, I am actually decreasing the amount of pests killed. Just the insects killed on the windshields of the trucks hauling the agribusiness inputs to the farm and the produce to the market probably exceeds the ones I kill. Which brings up again my point. If killing insects is some actual absolute, how can you justify using automobiles with their killing fields of windshields? A dead insect is a dead insect. At least I discriminate. I don't kill butterflies. Windshields do. If I ever have a band, I am going to call it Road Kill Butterfly Road kill butterfly Your precious fliuds dried Glued to the road Your still good wing flutters In the wind of passing cars But it will never lift you No more hovering by the buddleia Sipping nectar in the sunshine Is no more your way On this cold dark pavement Is where you're going to stay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 1999 Report Share Posted October 25, 1999 >"COM: Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK)" ><Syamasundara (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >Syamasundara (AT) bbt (DOT) se, Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se >"Christopher Hawkins" <gopal89 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> >CC: "COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >killing -neither direct or indirect >Thu, 21 Oct 99 19:40 +0100 > >[Text 2718108 from COM] > >Great quote > >23)760120mw.mayVol 18 P.258:Prabhupäda: Hm. Jaya. He is also. (break) Vedic >conception is that the birds and beasts, they should not be driven away. >Let >them eat as much as it like. They must eat also. >Tamäla Krsna: So we shouldn't do that in our field? >Prabhupäda: Yes. That is the Vedic. >Jayapatäkä: Then we won't have anything to eat. >Prabhupäda: No, you produce more. >Jayapatäkä: What ha... In the... Because now this field is the only field >that is ripening, so that if he doesn't scare the bird away, all the bird >will come and eat his field. When all the wheat is ripening at the same >time, then nobody cares. They let the birds eat. But if one man only is >growing one crop at one time, then all the birds come. They will clean out >and they all get... >Prabhupäda: No, therefore everyone should grow seasonal grains. Everyone >should take wheat. > >and coupled with this one > >SB 7.14.9...One should treat animals such as deer, camels, asses, monkeys, >mice, snakes, birds and flies exactly like ones's own son. How little >difference ther actually is between children and these innocent animals. >(Purport).......For example in the agricultural fields there may be many >mice, flies and other creatures that disturb production, and sometimes they >are killed by pesticides. In this verse, however, such killing is >forbidden. >Every living entity should be nourished by the fodd given by the Supreme >Personality of Godhead..... > >it seams clear that for vaisnavs ther can be no plan to kill slugs. This is >were we came into this dicussion. Which animals are good for eating slugs. >I >remember suggesting we an kill them indirectly by having a duck for example >for that purpose. It seams than by these two important quotes that there >can >be no killing either direct or indirect. Each and every thing has a right >to >eat. But ladybeetles eat aphids anyway, and ducks eat snails, so why not in our garden? It is hard to imagine how Prabhupada meant to include ducks and ladybeetles when he said pesticides. One living being is food for another. But the better standard would surely be to grow extra to feed the snails etc. But as Carol points out, sometimes that may not be possible, especially as snails multiply more rapidly than we can grow. What I do is go and chant my rounds and collect buckets of snails and relocate. Same could be done with most things. > >So slugs should be fed with nice food so they will not be interested in >your >seedlings. Trouble is they prefer seedlings to mahaprasad. > >I would suggest that fencing is acceptable vaisnava practice. Fencing is >mentioned in the Manu Samhita for example. > >Perhaps our cow standards should be coupled with a standard for >agriculture. >This would be a very important edition. > >Christopher Hawkins (I don't know who you are) thanks again for those >quotes. He's my husband, but I put his name on this e-mail address, so I could have 2 addresses for 2 conferences. I have your book on cow husbandry. It is very nice. ys, niscala. > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 1999 Report Share Posted October 25, 1999 > But ladybeetles eat aphids anyway, and ducks eat snails, so why not in our > garden? I've been mulling this over for a few weeks now, and I think I might have stumbled on what the problem is. Prabhupada in one purport says that we have to live with the *minimum* of violence. (Calling all you Vedabase wallahs, can you find that?) We understand that it is impossible to stop all violence, as simply our breathing is killing. So 'minimise' is the key word. Various devotees have been going back and forth with their problems, and it seems that there is a problem in that losses to bugs are really high. It seems like an intractable problem, could Prabhupada be wrong? NO, no no no! Prabhupada is never wrong. Well this is how my thinking runs at this point. In the Vedic times, ecosystems everywhere were in balance. When things run as Krsna intended, everyone/thing gets their/its fare share. But now the world is overrun with demons, who are trying to take more than their fare share. Practicaly speaking in most developed countries, eco systems have been systematicaly destroyed. What are ecosystems? Well, they are ducks, frogs, fishes, birds, spiders, etc. etc. as well as plants, fungis, microbes, etc. etc. So if we want balance again, if we want to facilitate mother nature, if we want to reintroduce Krsnas system, it means we have to build ecosystems again. So what does that mean? It means getting ducks, frogs, etc etc. Of course there can be a danger in introducing species into an out of wack ecosystem, in that where there are no natural predators certain species thrive. This is what happens when pesticides are used, all the bugs including the good ones are destroyed. But food for the bad ones is abundant in the form of crops, so the survivors get the edge, and eventualy can predominate. So it is very difficult for the lone farmer in the middle of an ocean of chemical farmers to do things naturaly. Does this make sense? So the only solution for devotees who really wish to minimise the violence, is to club together in varnasrama villages, where ecosystems can be rebuilt. Sorry there is not other way, we HAVE to introduce varnasrama! YS Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 1999 Report Share Posted October 25, 1999 > > > So it is very difficult for the lone farmer in the middle of an ocean of > chemical farmers to do things naturaly. > > Does this make sense? As the bird wheat quote so amply suggests, it is not the fault of the lone farmer trying to control pests, the problem lies with those that aren't around him /her also farming. To use that quote to suggest I shouldn't control pests is to miss the larger point being made. Don't tell me to not control pests if you aren't even in the farming business. Jayapataka: What ha... In the... Because now this field is the only field that is ripening, so that if he doesn't scare the bird away, all the bird will come and eat his field. When all the wheat is ripening at the same time, then nobody cares. They let the birds eat. But if one man only is growing one crop at one time, then all the birds come. They will clean out and they all get... Prabhupada: No, therefore everyone should grow seasonal grains. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- January 20, 1976, Mayapura As for violence against insects, the prohibition is not against all violence, but against unnecessary violence. One has to take birth according to one's activities of life. And after finishing one term of activities, one has to die to take birth for the next. In this way one is going through one cycle of birth and death after another without liberation. This cycle of birth and death does not, however, support unnecessary murder, slaughter and war. But at the same time, violence and war are inevitable factors in human society for keeping law and order. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 2.27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 1999 Report Share Posted October 27, 1999 >So it is very difficult for the lone farmer in the middle of an ocean of >chemical farmers to do things naturaly. > >Does this make sense? > Thankyou, Samba, your comments make a LOT of sense. (1) It is possible, with various permaculture techniques, to create a microcosm- a locally working ecosystem. It will be limited in effectiveness, if neighbouring farmers spray a LOT, but you can introduce beneficial predators, and provide them a habitat, such as a pond. The MANDALA idea in "a permaculture home garden", features the pond at the centre, and a rotating chicken coop (alternating with a rotating compost heap)- the chickens clean up snails, other nasties, weeds, previous crops, till the soil and fertilize. Its a brilliant book and is designed for self-sufficiency in veggies and fruit.All with really minimum labour. (2) A lot of problems with predators arise when monoculture is there: growing large amounts of one thing. That is why Carol is probably having so much trouble with birds, she has 400? fruit trees. If you only have a dozen or so, just for your own needs, it will not encourage plague proportions of pests. Like thousands of acres of wheat will encourage a plague of locusts. Monoculture is artificial. Again, the natural varnasrama way is to grow a variety of stuff, and if simple living is included, there is not much dependence on cash, and cash-cropping, which requires large acreages, or acres of one thing. If we are unable for various reasons to implement simple living in our lifestyles, it will probably be difficult to grow sufficiently to pay our bills, without spraying. Profit becomes a necessity, not a bonus.Therefore, Srila Prabhupada recommended the simple way of life as ideal. >"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" <Samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >Samba.SDG (AT) bbt (DOT) se, Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se >"Noelene Hawkins" <niscala99 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>, "COM: Cow (Protection and >related issues)" <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se> >Re: killing -neither direct or indirect >Mon, 25 Oct 99 18:55 +0630 > >[Text 2726805 from COM] > > > But ladybeetles eat aphids anyway, and ducks eat snails, so why not in >our > > garden? > >I've been mulling this over for a few weeks now, and I think I might have >stumbled on what the problem is. > >Prabhupada in one purport says that we have to live with the *minimum* of >violence. (Calling all you Vedabase wallahs, can you find that?) > >We understand that it is impossible to stop all violence, as simply our >breathing is killing. So 'minimise' is the key word. > >Various devotees have been going back and forth with their problems, and it >seems that there is a problem in that losses to bugs are really high. It >seems like an intractable problem, could Prabhupada be wrong? > >NO, no no no! Prabhupada is never wrong. > >Well this is how my thinking runs at this point. In the Vedic times, >ecosystems everywhere were in balance. When things run as Krsna intended, >everyone/thing gets their/its fare share. But now the world is overrun with >demons, who are trying to take more than their fare share. Practicaly >speaking in most developed countries, eco systems have been systematicaly >destroyed. > >What are ecosystems? Well, they are ducks, frogs, fishes, birds, spiders, >etc. etc. as well as plants, fungis, microbes, etc. etc. > >So if we want balance again, if we want to facilitate mother nature, if we >want to reintroduce Krsnas system, it means we have to build ecosystems >again. So what does that mean? It means getting ducks, frogs, etc etc. > >Of course there can be a danger in introducing species into an out of wack >ecosystem, in that where there are no natural predators certain species >thrive. This is what happens when pesticides are used, all the bugs >including the good ones are destroyed. But food for the bad ones is >abundant >in the form of crops, so the survivors get the edge, and eventualy can >predominate. > >So it is very difficult for the lone farmer in the middle of an ocean of >chemical farmers to do things naturaly. > >Does this make sense? > >So the only solution for devotees who really wish to minimise the violence, >is to club together in varnasrama villages, where ecosystems can be >rebuilt. > >Sorry there is not other way, we HAVE to introduce varnasrama! > > > >YS Samba das ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 On 25 Oct 1999, Samba das wrote: > So if we want balance again, if we want to facilitate mother nature, if we want to reintroduce Krsnas system, it means we have to build ecosystems again. So what does that mean? It means getting ducks, frogs, etc etc. Of course there can be a danger in introducing species into an out of wack ecosystem, in that where there are no natural predators certain species thrive. This is what happens when pesticides are used, all the bugs including the good ones are destroyed. But food for the bad ones is abundant in the form of crops, so the survivors get the edge, and eventualy can predominate. > So it is very difficult for the lone farmer in the middle of an ocean of chemical farmers to do things naturaly. > Does this make sense? > So the only solution for devotees who really wish to minimise the violence, is to club together in varnasrama villages, where ecosystems can be rebuilt. >Sorry there is not other way, we HAVE to introduce varnasrama! Have also arrived at this conclusion, that is one of the reasons he wanted us to establish communities of devotees. Ys, Rohita dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 1999 Report Share Posted November 2, 1999 <<If I ever have a band, I am going to call it Road Kill Butterfly Road kill butterfly Your precious fliuds dried Glued to the road Your still good wing flutters In the wind of passing cars But it will never lift you No more hovering by the buddleia Sipping nectar in the sunshine Is no more your way On this cold dark pavement Is where you're going to stay ...........You have a tune to this ? The red nexxx will love it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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