Let them come to our farms

[Guest guest]

Noelene Hawkins wrote:

"But can our farms maintain them and their families or pay them a salary

so that they can pay their bills? Or should they rather start their own farm

and maintain themselves and chant Hare Krsna, in the area where there are

already devotee farms?

According to Srila Prabhupada's perfect instructions, the answer is clearly,

without ambiguity, both. Devotees should maintain themselves, living simply,

growing all their necessities, on the ISKCON farms that Srila Prabhupada

provided us for this purpose, without dependence on the artificial technology

e.g. tractors, but replacing it with cow- and- bull technology.

Madhava Gosh Prabhu:

I think we will see sort of hybrid systems arising. There won't be a "one size

fits all" answer. Because we aren't the dominant poitical force in any

circumstance. there will be lots of devotees who just buy their own.

Comment:

Some devotees will buy their own property next to temple land; others will buy

land from the temple. Those that buy from the temple should purchase just

enough land for house and associated structures and a family garden (provided

someone is so inclined, not all are). Then if they want to farm more

extensively they should lease land. Such a lease should be a lifetime lease,

25% of the produce going to the temple at harvest time. In that way the

producer will become a good steward of the land and who will be eager to give

the sweat of his brow to the devata (deity). It is very important that the

agriculturalist be tied to his land with a feeling of pride.

Madhava Gosh Prabhu:

I think it is very important though, that there is land owned by the Cow

Trusts that families will be able to get onto, with little or no down, and

have security that they can have it for a long time, so they will be

encouraged to make the long term investments of time into the land to make it

productive.

Comment:

I agree but this must also apply to all agricultural land not just the grazing

lands. It does not matter whether there are Cow/Land Trusts or individual

leasing the bottom line must be that the agriculturalist feels secure, secure

that this land is mine to develop for the pleasure of Krishna. This applies to

the temple manager or to a private landholder; their behavior must be in the

footsteps of Lord Rama, so that the agriculturalist will feel secure. So the

farmer must be selective, as one is when taking a spiritual master, what are

the qualities of the landholder.

Madhava Gosh Prabhu:

For instance, it takes 5 years to bring an apple tree into bearing - who will

plant apples if they only have a short term lease?

Comment:

If the land lies idle for more than one season the question of leasing to that

person should come before the landholder (temple president, Zamindar,

whatever). A fine placed and the land leased to another party, but this action

is the exception. There should be no short-term leases anything under twenty

years.

ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Samba:

…… It will take time, but services such as our wheelwright, have to be valued,

and the trade value of his work estimated according to a standard of land

production. It may be that the wheelwrights other family members can also grow

food. So the values have to be estimated over time, and fair trade practises

established as the community grows. Certain things can be legislated, but as

much as possible natural adjustment by the community is best.

Comment:

Yes, that is how I also see it. The duty of the administrators is to setup a

framework in which the community can advance with room for personal

adjustments.

Samba:

The Amish are held together by their central belief system, and their economic

ties. They are very strict as to the impacts of technology on community, and

rightly so. In ISKCON so far, as far as I can see, we have never really

developed a village community that would face such things, and until we do, we

wont fully understand the dynamics of it. It's about time we started.

Comment:

Yes it is that time. We have to start acting in that frame of mind. The Amish

have an admirable functioning system, something that could be easily adapted

to our needs.

___________________

>Comment:

> This term King is not much accepted here in America, but everyone can

> understand that the Deity is Krishna and that the brahmanas, the pujaris

> are His personal servants. So to bring the produce to the temple and give

> to the servants of the Lord all can accept this. Of course the temple

> manager will take the produce and utilize it in Krishna's service as he

> sees fit and in return he will arrange for various things that the village

> will require.

Samba:

Along with the lease it would need to be clarified what the ksatria (temple

manager) is duty bound to provide. There would have to be laws, or some other

assurances that these responsibilities can not be changed with a change of GBC

or something. We need long term inalianable social structures

Comment:

Yes, it will send vibrations throughout society and these things will need to

be planned for, the modern society is on the fast tract, we must do this in

the mode of goodness. It must be thought out and the necessary arrangements

made for the proper functioning of the whole community.

______________________

>Comment:

>The problem is that in order to do this we have surrendered

some privacy in order to reciprocate with other village members. This is

not an easy thing and it is the hold up at present. Everyone is thinking

that 'I am the king in the castle and no one can tell me how to do this

and that, I can do it all myself.' In addition some comforts have to be

surrendered.

Samba:

I dont quite follow your tack here. If you have your 'own house' quite a bit

of privacy is assured.

Comment:

Maybe this is just an American thing; here in New Talavan we had a very loose

system of land sale to individual devotees (land has covenants on, but the

devotees could more or less set their own boundaries - this is now more

strict). There were two families about ¼ mile apart one with three acres and

the other with twenty-five. Neither one wanted any one to have land between

them or within a 100 yards of their property. They have no legal ground for

this but out of consideration the temple refused two potential land sales for

land in-between these two parties. Most do not want to have to another's house

within sight. This to me seems to be excessive privacy. It also eliminates the

idea of a village, if you're nearest neighbour is a quarter of a mile away!

Samba:

Also the land that one 'leases' would also have boundaries, (not necesarily

physical).

Comment:

They will have to be physical boundaries, either legal or just by agreement of

parties concerned. All conditions decided upon and put in writing for future

reference.

Or was your idea a kind of communal lease?

Comment:

The lease may be individual or communal depending on what the land is used

for.

Communal in the since of a group, say for example all those with cows, they

get together and form a grazing co-op, someone agrees to maintain fences,

someone to herd the cows on a daily basis, etc.. This co-op then approaches

the appropriate party to lease land.

Samba:

That would not work at all, as I am sure you would agree. As long as one knows

the bounds of his leased land there should not be any problem.

Areas of cooperation will exist, where one family specialises in certain

crops, and others with different ones, or in areas such as barn raising,

harvests, etc. But independance is an inalianable right. The glory comes when

independant individuals cooperate together for the greater spritual good. As

long as we have individual TV's, and technologies that satisfy our social

needs privateley, it will be very difficult to have good relations. These are

things the amish have recognised as threats to their community.

Community does not mean communism, it means indpendant individuals coming

together socialy, to worship the lord: at markets to exchange goods and

services, etc. Control of individuals by the ksatria and brahmin, fall in the

area of decisions regarding the impact of technologies or social practices,

that can be allowed to the individualy independant families, to ensure social

harmony, and cooperation. People who deviate from the accepted norm are

socially ostracised, until they agree to abide by the accepted rules.

So you can have your house and land, and privacy, but you must accept certain

moral rules, apart from the four regs, alhtough such rules may be closely

related ultimately. I mean, it may not be breaking the principles to watch

pornography, but we all know that a person doing so will have to fall down. TV

today is full of pornography, gross and subtle.

So independance is to be cherished, but the individuals also have to accept

certain moral imperatives, if they wish to be valued in society. The

cooperation of independant individuals towards the varnasrama system, and

ultimately pure love of god, is glorious. We can never force any individual by

removing their independance.

Comment:

Only means of control of deviatant behavior from the accepted norm is social

ostracism. If this is not followed, there will be degradation of the community

with the ultimate loss of independence, because the privilege was abused.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

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Re: Let them come to our farms

Text COM2534715 (36 lines)

06-Aug-99 12:13 +0800

COM: Nistula (das) ACBSP (Sri Pundarik Dham - Bangladesh)

<nistula.acbsp (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

Cow (Protection and related issues)

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Nistula Prabhu

….. Of course without real ksatriyas, this system was (and is) exploited, and

would be very difficult to promote in the 'modern' world. Where are those

leaders that can inspire such love & trust, and whom we would willingly place

our 'abused' faith in (our lives...and our children's future)?

Comment:

They are here, just not so visible. There is one little story in relation to

this.

Prabhupada das was the temple commander in Vancouver in the early 70's, one

time he inquired from Srila Prabhupada. 'Can you station some sannyasi here so

that we can get continual enlivenment here at our center.'? Prabhupada 's

reply was it would be better if he himself became fixed up.

I have met a number of visitors here from Chittagong, where you have been TP;

they always express their great love for you. Could you not get some land and

act in this role of Zamindar?

Ys,

Rohita dasa