Guest guest Posted February 4, 2001 Report Share Posted February 4, 2001 Dear Pragosh Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP. Thank you for communicating with us. However, we have seen in the past where farms were sold and the cows displaced, so that a city project could benefit from the profits of the sale. In all the cases that we are familiar with, the cows never did well and were considered as burdens. The cows are also citizens and their four legs are the four pillars of religious life. In Kali Yuga, the cow is left standing on only 1 leg which represents truthfulness. So many promisies have been made in the past to take care of the cows when they are displaced from their home farm. I have yet to see these promises fulfilled. One of the functions of the Ministry is to provide a checks and balances so that errors in purchasing agricultural properties and selling these properties do not continue as they have in the past. Once again, it is according to ISKCON Law 507 that the Minister of Agriculture and Cow Protection be consulted before purchasing and selling of agricultural properties. This law has not been followed in the regards to the proposed sale of these two farms. We have a full cow report from the Spanish farm received 2/7/01. There are 26 cows and oxen, what to speak of the devotees living there. This ministry has yet to be presented with a comphrensive plan as to the relocation of the cows and oxen and their long term care, if the farm is sold. The same situation applies to Inisrath Farm of which there has been no report since September 3,1999 at which point there was 6 cows and oxen. Every year we make a public annual report to all devotees as to the status of ISKCON Farms. The handling of these farms and the care of these cows will be noted. It would be helpful if we could have communication and information from the authorities in charge as to the why, how, of this proposed sale. Without this information we can only presume that the priority is acqusition of money for city temples and disregard for the care of the cows. Your servant, Balabhadra das ISKCON Minister for Cow Protection and Agriculture - "Pragosh (das) SDG (IRL)" <Pragosh.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net> "Bir Krishna Goswami" <70324.1511 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>; "Sivarama Swami" <101634.3660 (AT) compuserve (DOT) com>; "Madhu Sevita (das) ACBSP (GBC) (I)" <Madhu.Sevita.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Sri Trikalajna (das) MG (Potomac - USA)" <Sri.Trikalajna.MG (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Tirtharaja (das) KKD (New Vrajamandala - E)" <Tirtharaja.KKD (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Cc: "Kalakantha (das) ACBSP (Alachua - USA)" <Kalakantha.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Divyambara (dd) KKD (GBC Sec. Office Mayapur - IN)" <Divyambara.KKD (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Tuesday, February 06, 2001 3:00 PM Not Following ISKCON Law > Dear Balabhadra prabhu, > > Pamho. AgtSP. > > > To no avail, we have repeatedly tried to develop communication with the > > authorities in charge of the Spanish farm in regards to the sale of this > > farm. According to this ISKCON Law, this ministry is be consulted with > > before the sale of an ISKCON Farm as in the case of the sale of the > > Spanish farm. Also Standards 8 & 13 have to be addressed before the sale > > of both the Inisrath and New Vrajamandala are approved to be sold. Since > > this Ministry has not been communicated with on these issues, it is > > understood that ISKCON Law 507 has been transgressed. > > > > It would be a positive program to communicate with this Ministry in this > > regard. We are looking forward to your communication. > > I would like to confirm that neither of these properties will be sold > without the approval of the GBC body. Secondly the care of the cows is very > much paramount and there is no question that the cows at either of these > 'farms' will lose out as far as their care and facilities are concerned if > the GBC give their approval to sell these properties. > > I hope that this is of some help to you and I will keep you informed of > developments. > > Your servant, Praghosa dasa. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2001 Report Share Posted February 6, 2001 Dear Balabhadra prabhu, Pamho. AgtSP. > To no avail, we have repeatedly tried to develop communication with the > authorities in charge of the Spanish farm in regards to the sale of this > farm. According to this ISKCON Law, this ministry is be consulted with > before the sale of an ISKCON Farm as in the case of the sale of the > Spanish farm. Also Standards 8 & 13 have to be addressed before the sale > of both the Inisrath and New Vrajamandala are approved to be sold. Since > this Ministry has not been communicated with on these issues, it is > understood that ISKCON Law 507 has been transgressed. > > It would be a positive program to communicate with this Ministry in this > regard. We are looking forward to your communication. I would like to confirm that neither of these properties will be sold without the approval of the GBC body. Secondly the care of the cows is very much paramount and there is no question that the cows at either of these 'farms' will lose out as far as their care and facilities are concerned if the GBC give their approval to sell these properties. I hope that this is of some help to you and I will keep you informed of developments. Your servant, Praghosa dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2001 Report Share Posted February 6, 2001 "Pragosh (das) SDG (IRL)" wrote: > Dear Balabhadra prabhu, > > Pamho. AgtSP. > > > To no avail, we have repeatedly tried to develop communication with the > > authorities in charge of the Spanish farm in regards to the sale of this > > farm. According to this ISKCON Law, this ministry is be consulted with > > before the sale of an ISKCON Farm as in the case of the sale of the > > Spanish farm. Also Standards 8 & 13 have to be addressed before the sale > > of both the Inisrath and New Vrajamandala are approved to be sold. Since > > this Ministry has not been communicated with on these issues, it is > > understood that ISKCON Law 507 has been transgressed. > > > > It would be a positive program to communicate with this Ministry in this > > regard. We are looking forward to your communication. > > I would like to confirm that neither of these properties will be sold > without the approval of the GBC body. This definitely seems to skirt the issue. ISKCON Law 507 does not specify the "GBC Body," rather, it states quite specifically that the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture should be consulted before the sale of a farm. The distinction between the GBC and the Ministry of Agriculture seems even more pointed in view of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the GBC are lawbreakers when it comes to the matter of fulfilling their duties according to ISKCON's cow protection laws. In conclusion, it is the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture which must be consulted in order to fulfill the requirements of this ISKCON law, not the GBC. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi > Secondly the care of the cows is very > much paramount and there is no question that the cows at either of these > 'farms' will lose out as far as their care and facilities are concerned if > the GBC give their approval to sell these properties. In light of ISKCON's poor record of cow protection, it does seem that a sober person could reasonably question the welfare of the cows in this transaction -- if ISKCON laws are not scrupulously observed and carried out in the transaction under question. Thanks to the fact that the GBC have failed to regularly turn in cow-census reports for these farms, we do not even know the names and ages and the number of cows and oxen we are talking about here. Such a record of carelessness does not providea platform to suddenly gain faith that everything will be properly done with regard to the welfare of the cows, unless there is additional supervision in this matter. your servant, Hare Krsna dasi > I hope that this is of some help to you and I will keep you informed of > developments. > > Your servant, Praghosa dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2001 Report Share Posted February 7, 2001 > > > I would like to confirm that neither of these properties will be sold > without the approval of the GBC body Which is subject to policy and not whim. > . Secondly the care of the cows is very > much paramount and there is no question that the cows at either of these > 'farms' will lose out as far as their care and facilities are concerned if > the GBC give their approval to sell these properties. I think too many of us have already been through too many cycles of vague warm assurances and platitudes from authorities making short term decisions based on expediency that have long term negative consequences. Anything less than cold hard facts and properly structured business plans are unacceptable. > > > I hope that this is of some help to you and I will keep you informed of > developments. > > Your servant, Praghosa dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 Dear Balabhadra prabhu, Pamho. AgtSP. > Thank you for communicating with us. However, > we have seen in the past where farms were sold and the cows displaced, so > that a city project could benefit from the profits of the sale. In all the > cases that we are familiar with, the cows never did well and were > considered as burdens. The cows are also citizens and their four legs are > the four pillars of religious life. In Kali Yuga, the cow is left standing > on only 1 leg which represents truthfulness. I appreciate your concerns and am well familiar with the important role that cows and bulls play as far as our advancement in Krsna consciousness is concerned. However I would suggest that we try not to tar everyone with the same brush. I have been financially supporting a private devotee cow project for many years here in Ireland as well as contributing to the upkeep of the cows on Inis Rath. I am not in the business of neglecting cows! > So many promisies have been made in the past to take care of the cows when > they are displaced from their home farm. I have yet to see these promises > fulfilled. One of the functions of the Ministry is to provide a checks and > balances so that errors in purchasing agricultural properties and selling > these properties do not continue as they have in the past. Once again, it > is according to ISKCON Law 507 that the Minister of Agriculture and Cow > Protection be consulted before purchasing and selling of agricultural > properties. This law has not been followed in the regards to the proposed > sale of these two farms. As it happens NVM in Spain is not going to be sold and as far as Inis Rath is concerned nothing will happen in this regard for at least a year and more likely three. > We have a full cow report from the Spanish farm received 2/7/01. There are > 26 cows and oxen, what to speak of the devotees living there. This > ministry has yet to be presented with a comphrensive plan as to the > relocation of the cows and oxen and their long term care, if the farm is > sold. The same situation applies to Inisrath Farm of which there has been > no report since September 3,1999 at which point there was 6 cows and oxen. The lady (Mother Ananda Maya) who looks after the cows on Inis Rath is not so enthusiastic to send anymore reports, on the basis that she feels other than collecting reports your ministry shows very little interest, if any, throughout the rest of the year. I hasten to add that those are her words, not mine and I suggest you communicate with her directly because short of doing the reports myself (which is impractial because I live 2 hours away), I don't see that there is anything else I can do. > Every year we make a public annual report to all devotees as to the status > of ISKCON Farms. The handling of these farms and the care of these cows > will be noted. It would be helpful if we could have communication and > information from the authorities in charge as to the why, how, of this > proposed sale. Without this information we can only presume that the > priority is acqusition of money for city temples and disregard for the > care of the cows. As I said the plan to move is still in the 'thinking' stage, as soon as I have hard info on the new location I will let you know. Your servant, Praghosa dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 > This definitely seems to skirt the issue. ISKCON Law 507 does not specify > the "GBC Body," rather, it states quite specifically that the Ministry of > Cow Protection and Agriculture should be consulted before the sale of a > farm. > > The distinction between the GBC and the Ministry of Agriculture seems even > more pointed in view of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the GBC > are lawbreakers when it comes to the matter of fulfilling their duties > according to ISKCON's cow protection laws. > > In conclusion, it is the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture which > must be consulted in order to fulfill the requirements of this ISKCON law, > not the GBC. > > your servant, > > Hare Krsna dasi As I said to Balabhadra prabhu no 'farm' is presently being sold, when we have hard information on the new location I will let him know. That said I really don't like your inference that because of your assertion that the overwhelming majority of GBC's are lawbreakers therefore the devotees acting on behalf of the Inis Rath property are not to be trusted. No one has indicated that the cow protection ministry will not be consulted, rather there is at this point in time nothing to consult them about. Either way, to talk in the way you have above, certainly doesn't foster a mood of co-operation from this end. > In light of ISKCON's poor record of cow protection, it does seem that a > sober person could reasonably question the welfare of the cows in this > transaction -- if ISKCON laws are not scrupulously observed and carried > out in the transaction under question. Why? What in the 'transaction' suggests that the cows are going to be neglected? > Thanks to the fact that the GBC have failed to regularly turn in > cow-census reports for these farms, we do not even know the names and ages > and the number of cows and oxen we are talking about here. Such a record > of carelessness does not providea platform to suddenly gain faith that > everything will be properly done with regard to the welfare of the cows, > unless there is additional supervision in this matter. I'm not sure what your personal connection is to cows on a daily basis but I know that the devotees here who daily take care of the cows feel that there should be a more developed relationship between the devotees asking for reports and the devotees on the ground. For instance we recently raised the money to build a brand new goshala at Inis Rath (surely proving that even though there is talk of moving we are hardly in the moood of neglecting the cows). This facility is a huge improvement and has been much appreciated by the cows. If the ministry acknowleged this type of positive development rather than appearing like a police force, chastising at every opportunity, devotees maybe more inspired to reciprocate. Your servant, Praghosa dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 > I think too many of us have already been through too many cycles of vague > warm assurances and platitudes from authorities making short term > decisions based on expediency that have long term negative consequences. > Anything less than cold hard facts and properly structured business plans > are unacceptable. And you my friend really steal the show, you have obviously pre-judged the situation in accusing us of "short term decisions based on expediency". I don't know what we have done to evoke such ire and arrogance, I also don't know what your authority is to speak to devotees you don't even know in the way that you have. I can assure you of one thing though, the welfare of the cows concerned will not be dependent on your good self or your comments. Ys Praghosa dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 > I am not in the business of neglecting cows! Nice to hear. The lady (Mother Ananda Maya) who looks after the cows on Inis Rath is not > so enthusiastic to send anymore reports, on the basis that she feels other > than collecting reports your ministry shows very little interest, if any, > throughout the rest of the year. The Ministry is unfunded and a volunteer effort. Difficult to do much. Interest is there, facility is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 > If the requested reports were forthcoming, then perhaps the Ministry would > know about those improvements. You can't simultaneously feel offended > that some one asks for facts, and then condemn them for not knowing them. I of course didn't raise this issue and I wasn't feeling offended at all, we didn't build the goshalla in order to get pats on the back from the ministry. I was simply making the point that from a PR point of view the ministry is often seen in a negative light by the very devotees it is intended to serve - those working hard serving Krsna's cows. Whatever horror stories have happened in relation to cow protection in ISKCON shouldn't be considered the standard for all devotees serving in this area. The ones I know, who are doing this service, do it out of love for the cows, not to inflict suffering on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2001 Report Share Posted February 25, 2001 > The Ministry is unfunded and a volunteer effort. Difficult to do much. > Interest is there, facility is not. Having served in ISKCON for 20 years I can very much empathise with this problem. All I'm suggesting is don't be so heavy and black and white as far as your assumptions that neglect of cows is practically automatic with the devotees in general, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2001 Report Share Posted February 26, 2001 "Pragosh (das) SDG (IRL)" wrote: > > This definitely seems to skirt the issue. ISKCON Law 507 does not specify > > the "GBC Body," rather, it states quite specifically that the Ministry of > > Cow Protection and Agriculture should be consulted before the sale of a > > farm. > > > > The distinction between the GBC and the Ministry of Agriculture seems even > > more pointed in view of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the GBC > > are lawbreakers when it comes to the matter of fulfilling their duties > > according to ISKCON's cow protection laws. > > > > In conclusion, it is the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture which > > must be consulted in order to fulfill the requirements of this ISKCON law, > > not the GBC. > > > > your servant, > > > > Hare Krsna dasi > > As I said to Balabhadra prabhu no 'farm' is presently being sold, when we > have hard information on the new location I will let him know. That said I > really don't like your inference that because of your assertion that the > overwhelming majority of GBC's are lawbreakers therefore the devotees acting > on behalf of the Inis Rath property are not to be trusted. No one has > indicated that the cow protection ministry will not be consulted, rather > there is at this point in time nothing to consult them about. Either way, to > talk in the way you have above, certainly doesn't foster a mood of > co-operation from this end. > > > In light of ISKCON's poor record of cow protection, it does seem that a > > sober person could reasonably question the welfare of the cows in this > > transaction -- if ISKCON laws are not scrupulously observed and carried > > out in the transaction under question. > > Why? What in the 'transaction' suggests that the cows are going to be > neglected? > > > Thanks to the fact that the GBC have failed to regularly turn in > > cow-census reports for these farms, we do not even know the names and ages > > and the number of cows and oxen we are talking about here. Such a record > > of carelessness does not providea platform to suddenly gain faith that > > everything will be properly done with regard to the welfare of the cows, > > unless there is additional supervision in this matter. > > I'm not sure what your personal connection is to cows on a daily basis but I > know that the devotees here who daily take care of the cows feel that there > should be a more developed relationship between the devotees asking for > reports and the devotees on the ground. For instance we recently raised the > money to build a brand new goshala at Inis Rath (surely proving that even > though there is talk of moving we are hardly in the moood of neglecting the > cows). This facility is a huge improvement and has been much appreciated by > the cows. If the ministry acknowleged this type of positive development > rather than appearing like a police force, chastising at every opportunity, > devotees maybe more inspired to reciprocate. > > Your servant, Praghosa dasa. It's great that you have done all this stuff -- but if the GBC in charge of your yatra have broken ISKCON law by not turning in quarterly cow protection reports to the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture -- how is anyone outside Ireland to know of all your great activities? Your defense begins to sound more and more like the 8 year old who got an F for not turning in his homework: "But teacher, I actually did my homework, I just left it at home." Teacher: "Son, that may be true, but our rule at school is it is your responsibility to turn in your homework each day. If you don't actually give your homework to me, you haven't followed the rules and I must give you an F." Ireland's GBC has broken ISKCON law of turning in a quarterly cow protection report, so it gets an F -- Failure. With your growing enthusiasm for cow protection, I hope you will be able to reach ISKCON's Minimum Cow Protection Standards and have your GBC begin turning in quarterly cow protection reports to the Ministry of Cow Protection and Agriculture -- as required by ISKCON law. Otherwise your position becomes ludicrous -- if you cannot even reach the minimum standard required by ISKCON law. One final note: I am not speaking as a representative of the Ministry for Cow Protection and Agriculture. I am simply a member of the Cow conference who gets frustrated when I see such whining and lack of cooperation with the Ministry's efforts to shape ISKCON's farms into an example of first-class cow protection your servant, Hare Krsna dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 > Your defense begins to sound more and more like the 8 year old who got an > F for not turning in his homework: "But teacher, I actually did my > homework, I just left it at home." Teacher: "Son, that may be true, but > our rule at school is it is your responsibility to turn in your homework > each day. If you don't actually give your homework to me, you haven't > followed the rules and I must give you an F." > > Ireland's GBC has broken ISKCON law of turning in a quarterly cow > protection report, so it gets an F -- Failure. > > With your growing enthusiasm for cow protection, I hope you will be able > to reach ISKCON's Minimum Cow Protection Standards and have your GBC begin > turning in quarterly cow protection reports to the Ministry of Cow > Protection and Agriculture -- as required by ISKCON law. > > Otherwise your position becomes ludicrous -- if you cannot even reach the > minimum standard required by ISKCON law. > > One final note: I am not speaking as a representative of the Ministry for > Cow Protection and Agriculture. I am simply a member of the Cow > conference who gets > frustrated when I see such whining and lack of cooperation with the > Ministry's efforts to shape ISKCON's farms into an example of first-class > cow protection Well I'm certainly glad to hear that your views are not 'official' cow ministry views. We maybe graded with an F for failure but at least we're still in the class working hard with the resources we have and looking after the cows as best we can - cows that we inherited from previous ISKCON management. You may interpret that I'm 'defending' I'm more inclined to use the term 'explaining'. Given your strong condemnation perhaps you might like to sponsor a few cows yourself or better still put your wellies on and do a bit of mucking out! At the end of the day this is by far the most appreciated assistance one can give, philosophying and barracking over COM rarely if ever inspires devotees, particularly the earthy type attracted to practical cow protection. With that in mind our new goshalla would be more than a year old now except for the diverting of funds to the infamous Y2K/February 29th fiasco. So many devotees took the view that this was going to be the biggest disaster since Hiroshima after reading your voluminous texts on the subject across various conferences throughout 1999. Ys Pd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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