Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Please don't go about it this way... if I must say to make some inpact on your thoughts then, I PROMISE you, It will never work.. Even you start some kind of thing in this type of setting and eventualy it will turn in tragedy.. I not speaking in terms of just Iskcon past but also logic.. The main problem is you will not have the appropriate land after time and herd becomes larger and then that makes more need for hands for care which you will need a couple dozen intelegent Bhakta's who are fired up and want to spend their whole life with you for free or barley anything and then (THEY) would also have to breed to keep up with the herd size.. If you started your idea in this industrial style you would either eventualy start killing off the heard because of finances and would be the same as any blood dairy, or the cows would start falling of the edge of the continent and would be inside the local shops and stores trying to snag a snickers bar or a head of lettuce.. I'm saying in a consolodated form, and personaly.... never mind the sarcasm.. compationatly, Derek- > >Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya! > >I just concluded a long meeting with Balaji prabhu, the devotee here in >Alachua with whom I am working to establish a CSA program including cow >protection and milk supply. > >We have worked up a basic model for milk production which we need help >with. >Here are our assumptions: > > >Preconditions: >1) The business model is based on freehold land so there is no direct land >cost >2) All initial capital expenses like barn, initial acquisition of animals, >etc. are taken as already existing (We plan on obtaining grants, donations, >etc. for these costs) > >Cow Husbandry operations: > >This is based on an optimum herd size of 100 with milking cows freshened >only every four years and retired after 2-3 lactations. One out of three >heifers might never be bred. > >We have projected the following breakup of the herd and the costs of >maintaining the herd (feed, etc.) >Milking Cow 10 @ $675.00 year = $6,750 >Dry Cow 20 @ $325.00 year = $6,500 >Retired Cow 10 @ $325.00 year = $3,250 >Heifer 10 @ $250.00 year = $2,500 > > >Oxen 10 @ $400.00 year = $4,000 >Retired Oxen 30 @ $325.00 year = $9,750 >Bull Calf 10 @ $250.00 year = $2,500 > >Total maintenance cost > >Cost of milking (10 cows) >Labor 4 hours/day (365 days/year) @ $7 per hour $10,220 > >Total direct cost $45,470 > >Estimated milk production > >We project a 2 year lactation with an average over this period of 27 lbs >per >day. This would mean: > >Average 27 lbs per day/ 365 days/year @8 lbs/gallon = 1,232 gallons per >cow >Total for 10 cows = 12,319 gallons per year. > >This means that the direct cost is about $3.69 per gallon. (this is one of >the main areas we need help in verifying our assumptions - see bottom) > >Our market research indicates we can charge $5.00 per gallon reasonably and >sell "milk shares" in our CSA for $650 per year eventually providing about >95 persons with approx 2.5 gallons of milk (or equivalent in yoghurt, etc.) >per week. > >This would bring a gross margin of about $16,000 for the farmer to help >cover his own living expenses and all other indirect costs, including his >assistants. > >This would be in addition to the main business of the farm which is growing >vegetables, fruits and flowers for the CSA members. The oxen would be used >in this program which we estimate will save about up to $5,000 that would >otherwise be spent on equipment maintenance and depreciation, irrigation >electricity, insurance, fuel, etc. > >For the CSA we project utilizing about 6 acres for the 95 member >households. >Each household would pay about $480 per year for a total of $45,000 income. >THe direct costs of the agriculture is estimated at just around $400 per >acre for external inputs. This comes to $2400 per year leaving a gross >margin of $42,500 for the farmer and his assistants as well as additional >income for the social security of the cows and oxen. > >Initially we will not have such a large herd or even a small but >proportionate herd, but we will still set aside the money we would have >spent if we had the actual proportionate number of animals. For example, we >are planning to start with 2 milking cows and two bull calves (hopefully >from the same cows). However, we will set aside the cost of maintaining an >additional 6 animals into a trust fund for future retired animals. Thus we >expect that the initial milk production will at best just break even. > >On the other hand, we will start with the full agicultural program if we >get >enough rs. This will be done alongside the existing Govinda's >Garden farm which has been selling organic vegetables grown on 30+ acres >for >several years now. > >To facilitate this program we are forming an independent non-profit that >will support the development of this model on privately owned and operated >farms. I will be managing the non-profit and seeking grants for the >program. >The non-profit may also develop into a sort of certifying agency. We are >also considering operating a "social security" fund for both farmers and >animals through this non-profit. > >This is the basic outline. We need advice on several issues which I will >post in a separate ttext. > >Your servant, >Pancaratna das _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 - markjon chatburn <protection_farms > ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:16 PM Re: Request for help > If one works on the assumption of 2 calves born per > year and a life span of 20 years then stable-state > (mature) herd size would equate to 40 animals. > > This does not mean that you would need (40*20) 800 > animal-years of assurance capital, though. As 20 > animals would be over 10 they would need a lessening > amount of assurance due to their age. 20 animals would > be under 10 and they would need more assurance due to > their age. The maths would mean that you would need > only (20*20) 400 animal-years of capital assurance to > back the mature herd. > > That is still a huge amount, and it is doubtful in my > mind if to follow this stringently is good for the > overall project. A quater of this would be 100 > animal-years, which with a retired animal cost you > quoted at $325 per year would equate to a 25% > assurance capital of $325,000 needed at herd maturity > to assure the herd for life if the occasion merited a > suspension of the productive model. > > > > Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free > http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2002 Report Share Posted July 2, 2002 I have forwarded your e-mail to the conference. You can respond to Pancaratna prabhu directly and to the cow conference except that i have changed the settings on the cow conference because it was getting so much junk mail-so now I get all mail and then send it on if it is to do with cow protection. If enough persons don't mind getting the junk mail that has been coming in, I can change the settings and any letter written to the conference will get to the conference. - markjon chatburn <protection_farms > ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:54 AM Re: Request for help > Pancaratna, > > I have been trying to respond to you, but since I am > no longer on the conference I can't get through to > you. > I will send this to see if it gets through. > > > > Sign up for SBC Dial - First Month Free > http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 Was off the conference without realizing it, jsut got a batch of back mail including this one set by Chaya I guess. Maybe I missed a bunch. I have lots of reservations about this proposal and will comment more later but I would say off the top this is one of the best proposals I have ever seen, please don't be discouraged by negative feedback, some of which will also be coming from me. I see in later e mail you scale back from 100 to 20 cows, that is good, because then you can see if it works , to add more later then would be on the basis of experince. The 100 figure just throws such an emotional blast at devotees who have seen spectacular failures in teh past. Your presentation will be recieved better with the 20 figure. The way I found out I was off conference was Balabhadra asking about the $7 an hour figure. I don't know if he discussed it here and Chaya didn't send it to me so excuse if repetitive. The thing is that to give a person a gross salary of $7 an hour will cost the employer easily 8 maybe $9 an hour depending on state taxes like unemployment and workmen's compensation. The breed we have thought about at NV is Milking Shorthorn. The semen is available thru AI ( you do NOT want to keep a bull, especially in the beginning), they have a little richer milk, and the oxen have good characteristics. Land costs = $0. That is pretty sweet deal, as land is the killer for most new operations. But what is the guarantuee it will always be available? Off the top , this seems the weakest point, as if the whole thing is predictated on free land and later the support is withdrawn, then it goes negative numbers very quickly. Nice to see a trust arrangement with the land. The tiein with the produce CSA is great, then the dependency on milk sales is just a sideline really. The manure then becomes very valuable, assuming the CSA is low impact (minimal chemicals) or organic. Don't be discouraged, but do be realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2002 Report Share Posted July 3, 2002 Regarding breeds, Here at BM we use a duel purpose breed called Meusse-Rhine-Issel (it comes from that area between the 3 european rivers. This breed is not too disimilar to the dairy shorthorn mentioned by madhava gosh prabhu. We have bred from a dairy shorthorn and have found her very gentle. The stature of the oxen is good and the yield is reasonably high but not on the scale of the industrial cows. ys syam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2002 Report Share Posted July 4, 2002 Who will do : 1) HEALTH CHECKS- (and know what their looking at)?? a). Hoof care b). open wounds, infections, injections, pill inserts for deworming, mastitis care, Various others....... c). Assisting Birthing complications of calves. d). caring for newley born, Cliping ambilical cord and sterilize, Birth Namonia watch, Colostrom feeding, many others....... e). Dehorning (if desired) Castration, others..... 2) PASTURE MANAGMENT a). moving herds to proper feilds at proper times. b). Making sure feilds are seeded, weeded, holes filed. c). Fencing- d). Irigation and watering for herds. e). Poisonous plant protection f). cutting grass or buying grass that is not shit weed. storing the grass and grains, taking care of the storage facilities... g). a million other things.. 3) TRAINING COWS AND OXEN a). A trillion things... 4) BREEDING CONTROL MANAGMENT a). taking care of a bull?, facilities? Know how? b). picking the sire if doing manual inseminaton. 5) just realized I'll be here for awhile if I write more.. 6) THere is various tools and training for all these activities and for each activity.. three dozen choices of how to do it. 7) The way to have all things done nicly is.. just keep one or two or 5 cows personaly and forget business racketing, take care of the dear Matta's and Pita's as a part of the house hold, and they will reward you accordingly,, not to mention KRSNA..GOPAL..GOVINDA.. THis is the way of success and simple survival which is the main task of life, and the best model, (no cow enginiering), no matter your life style rich poor, complicated or simple, just keep a cow or two and be happy with your nightly hot cup of milk, yogart that you can't get rid of, butter if you get around to shaking the jar, yumm, CURD.. burfi..... If she thinks she is your mother and she gets love.. she will supply you her whole life.. as I've witnessed. Make industrial size,, and she is just another number, and you will breed every 1,2,3, years to keep up with comptition or overhead, ECT.. Good luck... Derek- ps, better keep fire insurance for your industry, and insurance on the cows incase one jumps a broken fenc line that the low waged servant didn;t fix properly and the cow walks in the nearest highway.. (maybe).... >Dear Pancaratna Prabhu, > >Sorry about the delay in replying to your letter. > >I have a doubt about your following analysis. > > >Cost of milking (10 cows) > >Labor 4 hours/day (365 days/year) @ $7 per hour $10,220 > >Does this labour time include the following: > 1. Herding the cows from the pasture for milking > 2. Cleaning the milking area > 3. Herding any suckling calves from there holding/pasturing fields > 4. Feeding hay during the non pasture months > 5. Feeding the rest of the herd > 6. Putting down fresh bedding for the cows and oxen during winter > 7. Moving the milk to and from the cow barns to the kitchens or >sales areas. > 8. When the main milkperson goes on vacation will he/she receive >holiday wages? If so then that is in effect a double payment on those days >(his and the relief milker). > 9. Apart from milking the cows what does the milkperson do at other >times to suplement the income? > > >I have attached the milking analysis of the Bhaktivedanta manor herd kept >over the past 8 years which may assist you in your yield calculations and >longevity of lactation. If you have any questions about it please let me >know. > >In your general costings and thoughts have you included the following: > > 1. The cost of manure removal and spreading by oxen and/or by >contractor. > 2. The cost of home grown hay and/or of bought in hay. > 3. The cost of home grown straw and/or of bought in straw > 4. The cost of fence repairs and general building repairs > 5. Veterinary costs > 6. Will your proposed wage of $7 per hour be enough to keep a >householder satisfactorily. > 7. Will the milkperson have a tied home or will they have to make >their own arrangements for living accommodation. > 8. If they are not strict sadhana bhaktas will there job be at risk > > >Sorry about the labyrinth these questions may create but I am sure you have >already considered them already. > >ys syam _______________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2002 Report Share Posted July 12, 2002 > Preconditions: > 1) The business model is based on freehold land so there is no direct land > cost You need to have some ironclad leasehold on that land held in trust so the whole program isn't evicted on a whim. > 2) All initial capital expenses like barn, initial acquisition of animals, > etc. are taken as already existing (We plan on obtaining grants, donations, > etc. for these costs) Yes, this is the subsidization necessary we have spoken of so often. Consider donations of animals from devotee farms. NV is for now actually not a candidate for donating young cows, as after a decade of no breeding, most cows are considered too old to be bred, especially since most are still heifers. What young stock there is is primarily half beef, due to unregulated incursions by neighbors bulls :-) (while I at times put forth the argument a calf born of a nieghbors bull belonged to the neighbor, the more sentimental always rejected that concept) DO NOT BUY NEW EQUIPMENT. The steady contraction of the number of farms in the US means that there is anlways an auction somewhere, and if you are patient, you should be able to get everything you need for 25-50% of new cost. Get your wish list immediately, run it by some farmers in your local area, then find out where the farm auctions are listed in your part of the country. As these capitalization expenses are major part of production, if you do not start breeding until they are in place, you will really limit your operating expenses, not having to pay down loans and interest on those loans. Or you could offer large donors milk as part of a compenstion package for the donation, if they live close by. I'm sure you already have that as part of your plan :-) If you have a 501©3 that could accept donations of older equipment, and then they could lease the equipment to the dairy operation in exchange for maintaining old cows, you may be able to place ads in dairy publications and get donations of equipment from conventional farmers who are upgrading to bigger equipment. The idea is that the normal dairy is not expected to keep those animals, but a 501©3 could maintain an older animal as part of it's religious practice, and they could contrac t with the dairy to maintain those animals. The dairy could donate the older animals to the 501 ©3, in the remote case there was a profit (on paper) and even take a tax write off, especially if it is linked with a viable CSA that does profit from the fruit and vegetable production. the older cows are now property of the 501©3, (which may also exempt them from state personal property taxes, at least it would in WV , don't know Florida tax structure), and the 501©3 could contract witht he dairy to care for the cows and provide use of the equipment as in kind payment. > Cow Husbandry operations: > > This is based on an optimum herd size of 100 with milking cows freshened > only every four years and retired after 2-3 lactations. One out of three > heifers might never be bred. > Sounds good. > We have projected the following breakup of the herd and the costs of > maintaining the herd (feed, etc.) > Milking Cow 10 @ $675.00 year = $6,750 > Dry Cow 20 @ $325.00 year = $6,500 > Retired Cow 10 @ $325.00 year = $3,250 > Heifer 10 @ $250.00 year = $2,500 > > > Oxen 10 @ $400.00 year = $4,000 > Retired Oxen 30 @ $325.00 year = $9,750 > Bull Calf 10 @ $250.00 year = $2,500 > > Total maintenance cost With equipment and land costs not counted in, these seem reasonable. although I would think that a retired cow is cheaper to maintain than a growing calf, becasue if you want to get full size, then some grain should be fed younger stock, plus occasionally vet may be needed for a younger animal, whereas for the older stock, sometimes you let nature take it's course. > > Cost of milking (10 cows) > Labor 4 hours/day (365 days/year) @ $7 per hour $10,220 > > Total direct cost $45,470 Again, $7 gross pay to an em[ployee will cost employer $8-9. > Estimated milk production > > We project a 2 year lactation with an average over this period of 27 lbs per > day. This would mean: > > Average 27 lbs per day/ 365 days/year @8 lbs/gallon = 1,232 gallons per > cow > Total for 10 cows = 12,319 gallons per year. > > This means that the direct cost is about $3.69 per gallon. (this is one of > the main areas we need help in verifying our assumptions - see bottom) > > Our market research indicates we can charge $5.00 per gallon reasonably and > sell "milk shares" in our CSA for $650 per year eventually providing about > 95 persons with approx 2.5 gallons of milk (or equivalent in yoghurt, etc.) > per week. > One difference between the $3.69 and the $5 figure you don't seem to be accounting for is the processing costs. Chilling the milk for raw milk sales (legal in Florida?) or pasteurizing it takes labor and energy, plus bottling costs which are labor and energy, assuming equipment already in hand. > This would bring a gross margin of about $16,000 for the farmer to help > cover his own living expenses and all other indirect costs, including his > assistants. My hope would be a breakeven for the dairy, with the manure as free fertilizer being the benefit and major part of the profit. farmer getting some of the labor costs for him/herself. > This would be in addition to the main business of the farm which is growing > vegetables, fruits and flowers for the CSA members. The oxen would be used > in this program which we estimate will save about up to $5,000 that would > otherwise be spent on equipment maintenance and depreciation, irrigation > electricity, insurance, fuel, etc. I think savings from oxen might be optimistic:-) But at least if it was a breakeven with mechanical draft, it wouldn't be a liability and that is a plus. The profit in using oxen will be more in a marketing perspective, or in giving rides at festivals, and on a spiritual level, Krsna will be pleased :-) > > For the CSA we project utilizing about 6 acres for the 95 member households. > Each household would pay about $480 per year for a total of $45,000 income. > THe direct costs of the agriculture is estimated at just around $400 per > acre for external inputs. This comes to $2400 per year leaving a gross > margin of $42,500 for the farmer and his assistants as well as additional > income for the social security of the cows and oxen. CSA have there own brand of headaches, but are definately where forward thinking farmers are looking. Alachua is a unique area with a large devotee community that is capital generating, so it is a great opportunity and niche market, worth taking the shot. I assume there is already an existing operation there looking to expand or upgrade, that would be ideal, starting from scratch is way more difficult than most people can concieve. > Initially we will not have such a large herd or even a small but > proportionate herd, but we will still set aside the money we would have > spent if we had the actual proportionate number of animals. For example, we > are planning to start with 2 milking cows and two bull calves (hopefully > from the same cows). However, we will set aside the cost of maintaining an > additional 6 animals into a trust fund for future retired animals. Thus we > expect that the initial milk production will at best just break even. > Good, start small, then when initial obstacles are overcome successfully, gradual expansion. > On the other hand, we will start with the full agicultural program if we get > enough rs. This will be done alongside the existing Govinda's > Garden farm which has been selling organic vegetables grown on 30+ acres for > several years now. > Go for it, I will pray for you. > To facilitate this program we are forming an independent non-profit that > will support the development of this model on privately owned and operated > farms. I will be managing the non-profit and seeking grants for the program. > The non-profit may also develop into a sort of certifying agency. We are > also considering operating a "social security" fund for both farmers and > animals through this non-profit. > Gotta love the idealism ;-)_ > This is the basic outline. We need advice on several issues which I will > post in a separate ttext. > > Your servant, > Pancaratna das > Sorry so slow to respond, but the demands of my own gardening operation drain most of my energy. Feel free to stop by NV and visit, we could have a frank and long conversation on these matters. Hare Krsna Madhava Gosh (in case you didn't realize that is who Mark Middle Mountain is, I am not on COM anymore) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2002 Report Share Posted July 12, 2002 > If we maintain the number of milking cows at just two then the corresponding > breeding schedule would require about 15 years for the herd to physically > grow to 20. By that time the CSA would have accumulated about $50,000 in the > trust fund. This is without compound interest. If you add interest then the > size of the fund grows to nearly $67,000. Consider investing the funds in the trust in rental properties, perhaps letting renters work off rent by working in the CSA, or selectively renting to people who are good employees in the operation. Better return in real estate investment than just regular interest. AT least have a portion considered to go that way. > If the program stopped at this point and there was no more breeding and no > more income, then the fund would be more than enough to cover the cost of > maintaining the herd for the rest of their lifetimes. IF, and big if, you still have free acccess to land and facilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2002 Report Share Posted July 17, 2002 Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya! I want to thank everyone for their very helpful comments. Unfortunately, I am a little handicapped in typing so it will take some time to reply everything. But I assure you that we are addressing your concerns. Our core group is meeting this weekend and I will report back after that. Again, thank you all. Your servant, Pancaratna das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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