From vision to action plan - limiting limitng factors.

[Guest guest]

Please accept my obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

There will be no permanence in what you are trying to establish, why -

because you are espousing working within the framework that they control for

the exploitation of the masses. The only hope is to establish a society

based on Spiritual Economics as outlined in Bhagavad Gita.

 

I have noticed you glanced over a statement that is the core of the Hare

Krishna movement. To return to Pancaratna das initial statement,

 

>Letter to: Syama Sundarji -- Vrindaban 15 November 1976

By the middle or end of November I may be going to Hyderabad. There we have

got 600 acres of land to develop a farm project. We have got one very nice

temple in Hyderabad City. As we are doing in Mayapur and many other places,

I want to develop self-sufficient centers with cloth and food production by

the devotees locally and save time as much as possible to devote them to

chant Hare Krishna.

 

Pancaratna:

This quotation is typical of the many places Srila Prabhupada correlates

self-sufficiency with the ability to "save time as much as possible to

devote themselves to chant Hare Krishna".

 

However, my observation is that the simple, self-sufficient, lifestyle

requires a lot of physical work - much more than the standard 40-hour

workweek which modern society has achieved.

 

Comment:

When there is talk about self-sufficient life style somehow the varnasrama

concept seems to disappear from the equation. Srila Prabhupada in

establishing ISKCON wanted to create the brahminical class, the followers of

Nivritti marga (ISKCON is in disciplic succession from Narada Muni who is

the chief exponent of this path), in this regard one Godbrother (Dhaneshvara

dasa) has written,

 

"Material economics promotes a consciousness of "lack" and the need to get.

Spiritual Economics promotes a consciousness of wholeness (om purnam adah

purnam idam) and the joy of giving. Spiritual Economics also delineates the

basis of varnasrama dharma, and establishes the place of genuinely

brahminical men and women in society."

 

This group of individuals who by nature would be very austere

(Nivritti-marga) would be the ones' who would be saving time for chanting.

They are the only ones who would have the inclination to chant, the other

varnas would be more interested in working than chanting. True they would

chant but not to the same extent the brahmanas would be inclined. Srila

Prabhupada in the above statement is referring to brahminical persons who

would be growing a little food for their own use, maybe some flowers and a

few herbs - no big endeavour. By the grace of the Shrimatis they would have

no taxes and in return these brahmanas would give guidance. Now others who

would be more profit inclined (Pravritti-marga) would be cent percent

engaged as you say, in excess of 40 hours a week and would be happy with

that, but always desirous to earn more.

 

Ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu's

 

Rohita Prabhu wrote

 

>Now others who would be more profit inclined (Pravritti-marga) would be

cent percent

engaged as you say, in excess of 40 hours a week and would be happy with

that, but always desirous to earn more.>

 

This raises some interesting points. The society needs brahmanas. Srila

Prabhupada mentions that ISKCON is meant to creat Brahmanas and ksatriyas.

A brahmana can live simply theoretically, but practically if he is a real

brahmana. So he may be satisfied with a bit, or an equivalent peasant simple

lifestyle.

 

The big point is that it is not the domain of Vaisya. A vaisya is driven by

>the desirous to earn more>. So let us not be one visioned. If we want cow

protection to be established it must enter the domain of vaisya economics.

It must give a vaisya the opportunity to have more. Let us encourage the

vaisya's to get rich by cow protection just as Krishna was rich by cow

protection. Of course the get rich is not at the expense of the cows but by

following strict protection principles alongside the economic development.

 

If somebody wants to live simply for only their families needs who will

object. But vaisya dharma means cultivation, milk production and trade all

being means of getting money.

 

This conference generally leans on the brahminical aspiration of cow

protction and generally the vaisya domain is a bit squashed. Unless we can

encourage and support the vaisya community the cow protction and ox farms

will not manifest. Because how can they manifest if nobody can make a

livelihood from it.

 

I do not share the idea of mark chatburn of leading by milk production and

getting the ox farms to catch up. I do share the concept completley that cow

protection farming must make economic sense in giving its practitioners a

good living.

 

If the oxen are taken care of the milk side will make sense but not

neccessarily the other way, as we have seen many times.

 

ys syam

[Guest guest]

-

Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK) <Syamasundara (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

cowz <cowz (AT) jc-net (DOT) com>; mark chatburn <markjon11 >; New Talavan

<talavan (AT) fnbop (DOT) com>; Taraka dasa <tarakadas (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, May 15, 2001 1:44 AM

Re: From vision to action plan - limiting limitng factors.

 

 

> Dear Prabhu's

>

> Rohita Prabhu wrote

>

> >Now others who would be more profit inclined (Pravritti-marga) would be

> cent percent

> engaged as you say, in excess of 40 hours a week and would be happy with

> that, but always desirous to earn more.>

>

> This raises some interesting points. The society needs brahmanas. Srila

> Prabhupada mentions that ISKCON is meant to creat Brahmanas and ksatriyas.

> A brahmana can live simply theoretically, but practically if he is a real

> brahmana. So he may be satisfied with a bit, or an equivalent peasant

simple

> lifestyle.

>

> The big point is that it is not the domain of Vaisya. A vaisya is driven

by

> >the desirous to earn more>. So let us not be one visioned. If we want cow

> protection to be established it must enter the domain of vaisya economics.

> It must give a vaisya the opportunity to have more. Let us encourage the

> vaisya's to get rich by cow protection just as Krishna was rich by cow

> protection. Of course the get rich is not at the expense of the cows but

by

> following strict protection principles alongside the economic development.

 

Comment:

In order for there to be spiritual advancement in the Vaisya sector, it is

required that they follow the Spiritual Economics as outlined in the

Bhagavad Gita, the regulative principles, chanting of the prescribed number

of rounds and the other practices entailed under the guidence of a spiritual

master. This means giving 25% to the ksatriya (in the form of taxes) and 25%

to the brahmanas (in the form of charity) what remains is for their use as

they see fit. Of course this will entail hard work and the money they mnake

will come from primarily cultivation and the sale of various products. Milk

would go mainly to the brahmanas, who would distribute as needed to the rest

of society. There is no objection to making of money, but because Maharaj

Prthu gave Kali dominion over gold, it must pass through the above

purificatory process - or it must be used in the direct glorification of

Lord Krishna.

>

> If somebody wants to live simply for only their families needs who will

> object. But vaisya dharma means cultivation, milk production and trade all

> being means of getting money.

>

> This conference generally leans on the brahminical aspiration of cow

> protction and generally the vaisya domain is a bit squashed. Unless we can

> encourage and support the vaisya community the cow protction and ox farms

> will not manifest. Because how can they manifest if nobody can make a

> livelihood from it.

>

Comment:

They can not manifest until a protected brahminical class is established to

guide the society on the spiritual path. As soon as that is there then the

vaisya sector, the productive order can and will be able to act properly.

 

> I do not share the idea of mark chatburn of leading by milk production and

> getting the ox farms to catch up. I do share the concept completley that

cow

> protection farming must make economic sense in giving its practitioners a

> good living.

>

 

Comment:

On one must lead by ox power, cultivation, milk production is for spiritual

advancement and the continuation of that ox power. Only by cultivation can a

vaisya hope to make a good living.

 

> If the oxen are taken care of the milk side will make sense but not

> neccessarily the other way, as we have seen many times.

>

> ys syam

>

[Guest guest]

I hope we will not all be still philosophizing these important points in 10

years time and still not have any persons making a livelihood from ox

farming.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> For me, to make a profit from cow protection is not

> deviant behaviour but the essential law of material

> life that profit creates, loss destroys.

 

Is it also necessary to make a profit from saving whales, preserving

old growth forests, or operating a battered woman's shelter?

 

There is no need to wait

 

> for the ox system to be fully ready if the milk system

> is already ready, the oxen can take the lead further

> down the alphabet soup, as ABC becomes DEF on the way

> to XYZ.

 

This is not some new visionary statement. It is exactly what

Kirtanananda and others have said when they justified commercial

approach to cow protection.

 

>

>

> For me, action and words leading to action to protect

> farm animals are active prayers of devotion, in full

> knowlege or not. Myself I find the more I am engaged

> in this the more I feel in devotional activity - this

> is my expression of religion (dharma).

>

> Well, these are my thoughts - what are yours?

> Really I would love to know.

 

I have 8 cows living on my land right now, guests from the goshalla

herd. None of them milk or are likely to ever milk again. I make a

substantial amount of my income from horticulture. Does that qualify me

to have an opinion in your eyes?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I do not share the idea of mark chatburn of leading by milk production and

> getting the ox farms to catch up. I do share the concept completley that cow

> protection farming must make economic sense in giving its practitioners a

> good living.

>

 

Which can only realistically be achieved through subsidies.

 

>

> If the oxen are taken care of the milk side will make sense but not

> neccessarily the other way, as we have seen many times.

>

> ys syam

 

Agreed

[Guest guest]

>

> They can not manifest until a protected brahminical class is established to

> guide the society on the spiritual path. As soon as that is there then the

> vaisya sector, the productive order can and will be able to act properly.

 

This has been debated ad nauseum on the VAD conference. I believe a house is

built by first building a foundation, a plant grows from a root. Vaisyas are

the basis of a true brahminical society, and until that economic base is

there, no true brahminical class can exist. Only one with delusions of

granduer, feeding off the teat of ugrakarmic society, speaking hollow

platitudes out of the corner of it's blood milk sucking mouth.

 

Anyone have a reference for the old hearsay quote that for every 10 sudras,

one

vaisya, for every 10 vaisyas, one ksatriya, for every 10 ksatriyas, one

brahmana? Always struck me as true.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > They can not manifest until a protected brahminical class is established

> > to guide the society on the spiritual path. As soon as that is there

> > then the vaisya sector, the productive order can and will be able to act

> > properly.

>

> This has been debated ad nauseum on the VAD conference. I believe a house

> is built by first building a foundation, a plant grows from a root.

> Vaisyas are the basis of a true brahminical society, and until that

> economic base is there, no true brahminical class can exist.

 

I agree with this 100%. The first step is to learn how to produce from the

land. Once we have that others can learn, and once we have enough people

doing it, we would be in a good position to start living according to

varnasrama culture.

 

Profit from cows comes from cows that are happy as part of the family.

Stable caring protected families are the root of all civilised culture.

 

If everyone lives up to our philosophy, that of giving to Krsna, there will

be abundance and plenty of wealth for all. Thats the goal.

 

I think this has been stated many times in different ways, but I guess we

are talking on different wavelengths. I cant see that we are all going to

agree on this at all.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

Rohita dasa:

> > > They cannot manifest until a protected brahminical class is

established to guide the society on the spiritual path. As soon as that is

there then the Vaisya sector, the productive order can and will be able to

act properly.

 

MMM:

> > This has been debated ad nauseum on the VAD conference. I believe a

house is built by first building a foundation, a plant grows from a root.

Vaisyas are the basis of a true brahminical society, and until that economic

base is there, no true brahminical class can exist.

 

Samba:

> I agree with this 100%. The first step is to learn how to produce from the

land. Once we have that others can learn, and once we have enough people

doing it, we would be in a good position to start living according to

varnasrama culture.

 

Comment:

Purity is the force, if as you say vaisyas are the basis of a true

brahminical society, then why did not Srila Prabhupada establish the Vaisya

community first? He established a brahminical setting, and then he added the

Vaisya feature. A Vaisya cannot fulfill the role of a brahmana in an

emergency time, but the brahmana can fulfill the role of a Vaisya at such a

time.

 

If we look to the example in the sastra of Maharaj Vena - he was an evil

king; the brahmanas removed him and reorganized society and then

relinquished the post to a ksatriya. Only one with brahminical qualities can

act to reestablish proper society. It is true that the Vaisyas provide the

economic base, but we cannot use the present systems economic structure as

it is built to encourage the exploitation of the masses by the few. Only the

brahmanas can survive outside an economic system and institute a spiritually

based community freed for these vises of the western economics. If we want

to establish a golden age for the next 5,000 years it has to be based on a

sound spiritually oriented society.

 

It is going to require brahmanas to setup a spiritually economic system, and

then turn it over to the Vaisyas to operate. The initial village will have

to be brahminical in nature; they will set the example and then the Vaisyas

and other varnas will be added once the properly spiritual atmosphere is

established.

 

In considering how to implement the practice of Spiritual Economics, it is

obvious that an environment will have to be provided. If our pioneering

participants' concerns are to be limited to that of giving the results of

their efforts, they must be freed from the task of getting money to pay for

mortgages, insurance, and so many other things which out of necessity we

have no alternative but to buy with cash. Therefore it is required that

certain benefactors be found, who understanding theses precepts, determine

to use some portion of the fortune which Lord Krishna has placed in their

charge to provide the setting and partial maintenance for those who make the

sacrifice to begin simple living. This beginning then, is simply the

application of the principles of Spiritual Economics - giving in the spirit

of devotional service.

 

Srila Prabhupada envisioned this same means for the establishment of Gita

Nagari - the city where Bhagavad-gita is lived. In his paper Interpretation

of Bhagavad-gita, which Srila Prabhupada wrote in 1948, he states that Gita

Nagari should be founded thus:

 

"In order to effect the program of Gita Nagari, it is necessary that at

least twelve gentlemen, picked from the families of Suchis and Shrimatis

should form an association. And with the help of these gentlemen,

arrangement has to be made to provide the fund of Gita Nagari with an income

of Rs 10,000 per month for the expenses of Gita Nagari."

 

As Srila Prabhupada has understood and stated, money is required in so many

kinds of ways. Particularly for capital goods such as tools, implements and

various gadgets, and especially for land to live on, and the only way to

obtain such things in today's economy is to buy them. Cash is required, and

this cash must come from either those who have it or those who earn it.

Those who have it may press it into use. However, the very nature of

Spiritual Economics is that it precludes people from working for money.

 

There is seemingly a dilemma here, but its solution is found in the

cooperative help of many people who support the concept of Spiritual

Economics, but who are as yet unprepared to make such dramatic life-style

change themselves. Such patrons may come from all walks of life, and

particularly those who understand the seriousness of the financial situation

of the world may be willing to help finance such an enterprise. Moreover,

our transition to Spiritual Economics is not simply a mundane affair but is

actually an activity of devotional service being done by so many devotees.

Such spiritual activity also has many supporters. Thus many people of

understanding and in different statuses of life can come together to

participate wholeheartedly and with conviction to realize the establishment

of an economy based on Spiritual Economics.

 

>Samba:

> Profit from cows comes from cows that are happy as part of the family.

Stable caring protected families are the root of all civilised culture.

 

> If everyone lives up to our philosophy, that of giving to Krsna, there

will be abundance and plenty of wealth for all. That's the goal.

 

Comment:

I agree, but first before this can be we have to remove some major faults,

the prime one being a polluted economic system and replace it with a

spiritual model. It needs to be done in the simplest form, the family and in

its simplest aggregate the village; as more are attracted the other system

will crumble, as it is inherently destructive in nature.

Ys, Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Comment:

> Purity is the force, if as you say vaisyas are the basis of a true

> brahminical society, then why did not Srila Prabhupada establish the Vaisya

> community first? He established a brahminical setting, and then he added the

> Vaisya feature.

 

However you want to think about it - if Srila Prabhupada did actually

establish a brahminical class, then the next order of business is still to

establish a vaisya class to be an economic base for those brahmanas.

 

>

> It is going to require brahmanas to setup a spiritually economic system, and

> then turn it over to the Vaisyas to operate. The initial village will have

> to be brahminical in nature; they will set the example and then the Vaisyas

> and other varnas will be added once the properly spiritual atmosphere is

> established.

 

That has been the operative assumption for the last quarter century. Could you

point to a successful example?

 

>

> Therefore it is required that

> certain benefactors be found, who understanding theses precepts, determine

> to use some portion of the fortune which Lord Krishna has placed in their

> charge to provide the setting and partial maintenance for those who make the

> sacrifice to begin simple living.

 

Ah, the waiting for a White Knight school of economics. Can you point to an

example of where this has worked?

 

>

> As Srila Prabhupada has understood and stated, money is required in so many

> kinds of ways. Particularly for capital goods such as tools, implements and

> various gadgets, and especially for land to live on, and the only way to

> obtain such things in today's economy is to buy them. Cash is required, and

> this cash must come from either those who have it or those who earn it.

 

Agreed 100%

 

 

>

>

> Comment:

> I agree, but first before this can be we have to remove some major faults,

> the prime one being a polluted economic system and replace it with a

> spiritual model. It needs to be done in the simplest form, the family and in

> its simplest aggregate the village; as more are attracted the other system

> will crumble, as it is inherently destructive in nature.

> Ys, Rohita dasa

 

Then why are none the of the children staying?

 

Is it because a clinging to a nonworking, idealistic model has produced an

economy still totally dependent on ugrakarmic society, with little of that

societies benefits?