Killing!

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> (Please note, this is a message from Gopinatha Acarya)

> Wild boars.

> I think you should be very cautious about exterminating them at present.

> Firstly, there are no qualified and practising ksatriyas at the present,

> acting under the guidance of brahmanas.

> Practically who is qualified and practising as a brahmana?

> If you are thinking yourself as a ksatriya, have you arranged land for

> vaisyas to protect cows?

 

I represent a group of devotees who are attempting to start a varnasrama

community. A few of these devotees, who are somewhat wealthy, may purchase

land and then sell or lease this land to other devotees, so as to encourage

others to attempt to start a varnasrama community. So some of these persons

may make such an arrangement.

 

> Are they protecting bulls by engaging them to produce food grains, and

> self-satisfied subsisting on such foodstuff?

 

This is the attempt.

 

> Or are they selling their own food out of greediness for money?

 

The idea is to produce the necesary food crops, and anciliary items, for our

maintenance, and the surplus to be shared according to VAD principles. The

idea is not to work based on greed.

 

> Do you have a state, farm or even a village of thriving, trained up, self

> independent, self satisfied vaisyas

 

This is what we are aiming for (village).

 

> Or if you fancy yourself as a vaisya,

 

Personaly I just cant figure out what I am. But as an aspiring devotee, I am

trying to do the needful according to Srila Prabhupadas instructions vis a

vis, setting up a 'small ideal unit'.

 

you could ask your king [who

> provided you with the land and to whom you are giving 25% of the produce

> you subsist on (mainly grains and ghee)], and who has the above

> qualifications to hunt the particular ferocious, attacking boar in

> question with a sword in hand, to practise killing deviant, dangerous

> humans. Thus the boar can be taken in procession, with the same royal

> honour as the king, having been sacrificed for a higher cause and thus

> achieve a higher, perhaps human birth in the next life.

 

Sorry, no king. However can not we have a ksatria in the village who is our

protector (as much as is viable in the modern day scenario?) Think of the

village as a small kingdom. Of course that will not replace an all powerful

king, but then this is kali yuga.

 

> Or is it that the boar is not really attacking anyone or endangering their

> life. So you will have to kill him from behind? Would he just be trying to

> defend himself if you corner him? Would you give him a fair chance and

> fight with equal weapons, as after all, everyone has the right to kill in

> self-defence. Will you be attacking him if he doesn't attack you? Will

> you kill him if he is afraid? Is he really such a demon rascal, or is he

> just hungry and looking for some tucker like everyone else? I suppose you

> couldn't put out a big bowl of milk as you could do for some man-eating

> tiger, but you could plow up an area on the outskirts and grow some sweet

> potatoes, which would really make a bhakta out of him. In that case you

> would feel transcendental pleasure in taking his remnants (as sweet

> potatoes produce so prolifically that one acre should produce ( ) tons

> and which only takes a day or so to plow up and plant. Probably, he'll do

> you a bit of service digging up a few extra, but most likely after eating

> what he wants, he'll just waddle off as happy as Larry. If you really

> develop some love for him you could be lucky, he might come back next

> year, wagging his tail and very tame.

 

Nice solution. If we actualy have this problem, we could give that a try.

But I wonder. Right now, and for the immediate future, having a full fledged

varnasrama community seems like a distant dream. But Srila Prabhupada has

given us the task. Pure devotees words are not uttered in vain. He did tell

us to create varnasrama colleges, and in those colleges train ksatrias. We

also understand that (at least some) ksatrias need to be able to kill. So

how will they learn this art? We could argue that you cant have ksatrias

killing until a varnasrama society is fully in place, but then how will we

ever have such a society in place, if we are not working towards that goal,

by training people according to their propensities. So while I personaly

probably cold not bring myself to actualy kill a boar (I never had to kill

anything), It appears that some people should do so.

 

But as you rightly mention later in the text, we also need qualified

brahmins to guide the ksatrias. Without a village situation where brahmins

can actualy be independant enough to speak out, (by being independantly

situated) how will we be able to grow. Is it a 'catch 22'?

 

> Do you have a temple with a diety where you offer bhoga from the 25%

> foodstuffs collected from the self independent vaisyas who are keeping all

> the cows and calves happy, and the bulls engaged and protected,

 

That is the aim.

 

> or are you

> just exploiting the labour of a whole lot of sudras?

 

In the beginning, we will do all the work, although we may employ people as

needed, at least until we can get enough dedicated families.

 

Are you

> the type that drives by on a tractor, seeing a cow or bull "down" and says

> "he's gone there to die", as some people I know say and do? Are you the

> type that worries when someone is missing, goes looking for him, gets him

> back on his feet, and relishes his association for some more years?

 

Thats an interesting point. When I first joined at 16. I remember a calf

that was born at the manor. It could not fully unfold its front legs, so it

hobbled about on its knees. Eventualy after many attempts by the devotees

and vet, to fix the legs, the skin wore out, and the calf was left with its

lower legs dangling on bits of skin. I remember feeling so horrified and

helpless, seeing that poor creature like that. The devotees said we had to

keep it like that. But then one day the vet came and killed it with an

injection, overiding the devotees. It does seem very cruel, but I guess in

the ultimate scheme that calf was destined to suffer like that. Just shows

what a nasty place this world is.

 

But yep, the cows are as good as our children or parents, and that means we

show them the same compassion (and I dont mean sending them off to old

peoples homes. If we dont at least do that, then what kind of devotees do we

think we are?

 

I guess what they should have done at the Manor was simply to bandage the

legs, and take care of the calf as we would our own child. The question

arises, as to when to call the veterinarian, and when not.

 

> Do you love everyone, including all animals, and as a perfect lover,

> embrace cows and calves, as Krsna does?

 

Well that is the platform of the pure devotee, no? I mean of course we

should aspire for that, but we cannot artificialy claim to be on that

platform. The varnasrama system is to bring us to that point gradualy, if we

were already there, why bother with varnasrama?

 

> Or is that sentimental, just for Krsna?

 

Not sentimental, but certainly a very elevated state.

 

> Do you give water, shade, food, shelter or assistance to such helpless,

> offenceless, loveable entities, when they have fallen over and can't get

> up on their own, or do you forbid anyone to give water so they die of

> thirst, perhaps many years before they were meant to (as some people I

> know?)

 

You seem to know some really nasty people! But we also have to be practical.

I mean Jada Bharata got attached to that poor helpless deer. Next time you

visit Calcutta, are you planning to start a home for the dogs? Actualy you

should discuss this with the Mayapur devotees. There are many dogs there,

some of them rabid. They have bitten devotees. Theres a problem that needs

some real good thinking. For years no one has found a solution.

 

> Do you actually know who these living entities are? Are they just an

> animal or are you? Or, are they actually devotees, not fully perfect,

> fallen maybe accidentally, taking one last life in the holy dhama

> (wherever there is the Diety and Vrindavan life), and thereafter go back

> to Golok, (as even Putana did, what to speak of a cow who's given her

> milk), related to Krsna as His mother?

 

Again you have to be on a very elevated platform to know that.

 

> Who are these cows and bulls hand-picked by Krsna, to take birth on our

> farms? Why does He want their milk, grains from fields, plowed by these

> bulls in particular? There's only one way to find out- serve them! By

> their mercy, if you've pleased them (and Guru and Krsna), you'll get some

> realization. At least then we can come to the mode of goodness and see

> things rightly.

 

Absolutely!

 

> So what about Bhakta Pig? Are you going to consider him part of Vrindavan

> and feed him by growing something extra like sweet potatoes which you

> could also eat, or are you going to kill him and risk becoming a living

> entity, hanging around the outskirts, trying to get some mercy like Jada

> Bharata as a deer?

 

If the pigs can be brought under control by feeding, then surely that is the

best option. If however they cannot, and they continue to be troublesome,

despite many attempts to placate or in other ways satisfy them. Surely then

they become good candidates for Ksatria training? I mean Srila Prabhupada

does say the ksatira can kill troublesome animals, so in our aspiring

varnasrama village, our ksatrias are going to have to learn to kill. We are

not pacifists after all. I guess the brahmins that take the task of training

ksatrias are going to have to find out about all the rules and regulations

of noble, and rightous killing. It all has to be done properly.

 

> Or would you rather do the needful (again, like Jada Bharata), and stay

> up all night and protect your crops (which is the varnasrama gentlemanly

> way to do it).

 

In south India we did try that. In fact the villagers all over that region

make these small platforms on stilts with a roof, and with a large flat

stone, on which they make a fire, and sit all night. And sometimes that

works. But then sometimes you just cannot cover the whole area. So if they

become a problem that actualy threatens the villages survival, it would seem

to be a good arrangement to send out our band of ksatrias to hone their

skills. I should mention also that when we threw the 'atom bombs' we were in

no danger of actualy harming the pigs. It was night and pitch black, all you

could hear was rummaging and munching over the valley. So we'd throw a

couple of those things, and we'd here a bit of running, but it didnt stop

them. There must have been a lot of them too, cos they did a lot of damage.

And if they prefer pinapples to sweet potatoes I dont know. But that is not

the point.

 

If they are allowed to multiply happily, with full protection, and they have

a lovely farm of fresh produce that we so nicely laid out for them, it could

get to the point of 'us or them'. This is all theory, but its possible, it

happens, and if so, there must be guidelines in sastra.

 

Many of the villagers do hunt them with spears. Incidentaly one time I was

chanting japa in the long grasses behind the goshalla in Mayapur (I was

checking on the construction of a new apartment building). Suddenly I looked

behind me, to find about 8 loincloth clad men with spears coming towards me!

I thought my time was up, when they stalked right past me, and on into the

brush. I never found out what they were hunting.

 

If you are so absolutely addicted to or dependent on

> pineapples and bananas, why not try growing more of a diversity of crops.

 

At that time, pineapples were being grown, not my decision, and the whole

thing was academic to me anyway. But yes biodiversity is the way, and we

plan to follow it. Like I say this is all theory, and if you can prove that

we should not kill such beasts at any cost, I will accept that. Maybe it can

be avoided. Maybe the ksatrias killing practice, is done elsewhere. But it

makes more sense to me to kill a troublesome boar, than to go out of your

way to find a peacable deer, for instance.

 

> There might not be any karma for killing humans who steal your crops or

> who set fire to them, but not so for innocent birds or beasts.

 

Please give us a quote for that.

 

> First let's get varnasrama rolling, then think about practising killing.

 

OK now your talking. Yep I agree totaly. We cannot rush into these things.

 

This is a great text, and very nicely thought out, although maybe a little

too provocative. But this is exactly the kind of response I wanted to get,

well balanced and authoritative, thanks, you brought out a lot of issues.

 

Actualy I am not sure if there are any pigs near the land we are about to

get, but there may be, and so, happily you have given me some possible

positive ways of averting any problem.

 

You have obviously thought very deeply about these subjects, and having

imbibed Srila Prabhupadas teachings very nicely, you have given a very

expert and in depth analysis of all the possible misconceptions that could

arise.

 

We must be extremely careful and thoughtfull at all stages of varnasrama

development, that we do not overstep our bounds or try to instate things

before we are fully able to handle the consequences of our actions.

 

> P.P.S. Forgive me. I am not being personal in any way. I don't know you

> and you don't know me. All glories to your service. I am just taking the

> opportunity to write for my own purification (no offense intended), and to

> air some of Srila Prabhupada's nectarean words. I know how much devotees

> are struggling to execute his desires against all odds. So please print

> out the quotes for meditation. Dandavats. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

> Afterword: These quotes can be supplied upon request.

 

Thanks very much for your sober and far reaching insight.

 

> Afterword: These quotes can be supplied upon request.

 

If you dont mind I would love to have these quotes. I think it is very

important to have Srila Prabhupadas quotes available in particular contexts,

as such quotes are our guiding light. You appeared to intersperse quotes

here, but it was difficult to figure out exactly where they begun and ended.

You have put in some excellent quotes, and I really would like to have them

with proper references for our future development. After obviously taking so

much care, I would request you to please make your presenation complete by

giving us clearly the actual quotes, so we can use them authoritatively in

future.

 

I would think that any varnasrama community would be very fortunate to have

such a person as your good self to analyse the growth of the community, and

help to apply Srila Prabhupadas teachings at the right times.

 

 

Your Servant

Samba das