Is Prabhupad in Goloka?

[Guest guest]

Or did he return to earth?

[Guest guest]

 

Or did he return to earth?

 

Ask someone you think knows. Narayan maharaj believes guru is omnicient, he also says he knows who prabhupada is so I guess he knows. But hasnt said, Im not sure of anyone else that claims to know, although there are a few opinions around. Maybe you could ask krishna, might take a while to get a response could be quick if the reciever is clean.

[Guest guest]

 

Ask someone you think knows. Narayan maharaj believes guru is omnicient, he also says he knows who prabhupada is so I guess he knows. But hasnt said, Im not sure of anyone else that claims to know, although there are a few opinions around. Maybe you could ask krishna, might take a while to get a response could be quick if the reciever is clean.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

Well, if he is not in the murti that he authorized, then ISKCON daily practices idol worhsip of a polyester resin chunck

The murti of the spiritual master is supposed to be the same as a deity.

Gaudiyas do not worship idols.

There is no difference between the murti of Srila Prabhupada and his murti.

 

Therefore, Srila Prabhupada is still in his temples.

 

He made a contract with ISKCON at the time that he authorized his murtis to be installed that he would never abandon ISKCON.

 

That is the unique aspect of when an acharya authorized the installation of his murti in his sampradaya.

 

That also makes Srila Prabhupada a little unique amongst Gaudiya acharyas, as most of the other predecessor acharyas never authorized the installation of murtis in the sampradaya mandiras.

[Guest guest]

Yes, in his murti, but also in Goloka in the pastimes of Sri Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and also spreading Krsna Consciousness in another universe. Yes, and this is possible for the real guru tattva. Will the real guru tattva please stand up.

[Guest guest]

 

Yes, in his murti, but also in Goloka in the pastimes of Sri Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and also spreading Krsna Consciousness in another universe. Yes, and this is possible for the real guru tattva. Will the real guru tattva please stand up.

 

No doubt this is possible and probable however, this remains dogma/speculation/shradha could be a good thing in good hands or a bad thing in a puffed up mind, until one actually starts having some real realisations, real guru tattva doesnt mean a thing, until one becomes a real disciple.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

Vijay wrote

 

 

"this remains dogma/speculation/shradha ..."

 

 

????

[Guest guest]

 

Vijay wrote

"this remains dogma/speculation/shradha ..."

????

 

It depends on our motivations when glorifying guru, it can be done in a nice humble way with faith which is benifical for spiritual health, or it could be a pure act of speculation with not much faith in the guru just an intellectual excersice, which doesnt do much for spiritual health, or even worse done in an extremist way to boost the ego and put down others which can be detrimental to spiritual health.

[Kulapavana]

by Dhira Govinda das

Posted November 5, 2003

"In correspondence between the SAC and this author, one SAC member quoted PL:

<DIR>Just as Sri Krsna, Srimati Radharani, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are non-different from Their Deity forms, and are fully capable to act and relate in Their Deity forms, the murtis and pictures of the parampara acaryas, such as Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, can similarly act non-differently from the acaryas. Obviously this requires special empowerment from the Supreme Lord. Ordinary persons, or even aspiring Vaisnavas, are not able to reciprocate in their picture form in the way that the great acaryas do. [excerpt from PL quoted by a member of the SAC in his correspondence with this author]

</DIR>The SAC member replied, "This is a novel theory, or at least one I am not familiar with, that the murtis and pictures of specially empowered acaryas are equally potent to the murtis of the Supreme Lord and His internal potency, while the images of less empowered Vaisnavas are impotent. The arca-murti of the Personality of Godhead is a special incarnation, nondifferent from His original self, and manifests all His potencies to those who worship Him with love. The murti or picture of one's guru is recognized as the proper place to make offerings in worship, but as far as I know the Vaisnava sastras do not identify the guru's image as the same kind of arca-murti." "

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/succNov05_03_two.html

[Guest guest]

That the Murti is non-different from Srila Prabhupada is obvious, but the differences in which of the acharya's blessings it may specifically benedict to worshipping disciples is only known through A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami's explicit instruction in this regard, or some quote from Scripture.

 

The exact capacities of the Murti of a Liberated Acharya cannot be understood by speculation, which is the only thing behind any of the suggestions to that effect I have seen here.

[Guest guest]

It's quite obvious that the murti of a liberated, self-realized siddha-purusha is going to have more powers than the picture of a kanistha or madhyama guru who is still in the conditioned state of existance.

 

The guru gayatri and guru bija mantra pertain the liberated, self-realized acharyas who are endowed with all the mystic powers and more.

 

It is said in the Bhagavatam that the eight mystic siddhis constitute very little of the pure devotee's Godly opulence.

 

That is the difference between a genuine guru and a pretender.

[Guest guest]

why waste time asking where srila prabhupada is ?

 

he said chant and remember Krishna every moment.....he didn't say after I die think about where I am and what I'm doing.

 

-Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Guest said: chant and remember Krishna every moment.

 

Perfectly right ! But who among us, the internet savy, do that.

If we have reached that level (chant and remember Krishna every moment) we will not even bother to go to this forum for sanga.

 

Remembering our Gurus, is like remembering Krishna also. That is if you consider the Guru as an extension of Krishna, which the shastras say so.

 

Hare Krishna

Radha Krishna

 

Myrla

Australia

[Puru_Das]

 

Or did he return to earth?

 

.

 

When a bona fide acarya is manifest here (Bhu-Mandala) during his nara lila, he can also be simultaneously manifest in goloka.

 

"In all the ancient scriptures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu."

HDGACBSP

CC. Adi lila 1.46

 

"There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service. . . . The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Srila Govindadeva vigraha. Both of these Deities are worshiped at Vrndavana. Srila Gopinatha is the ultimate attraction in spiritual realization.

HDGACBSP

Cc. Adi lila 1.47

 

 

 

Eternally liberated (nitya-mukta) souls are not confined by material bodies like conditioned souls. Neither are they limited to one manifestation. e.g. Lord Siva manifests in Rama Lila as Hanuman. Narada Muni manifest in so many different lilas of Sri Krsna, in Dvaraka, in Mathura, all over the universe. Pure souls can manifest svarupa's in both Krsna and Caitanya lila, Braja and Nabadwipa.

 

Uttama adhikari Vaisnavas who are sent to deliver fallen souls in the maha tattva, always serve Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in their eternal lila, manasi-seva, even when they appear to take the position of madhyama adhikari to allow themselves to be visible to our external senses, initiate disciples, preach to conditioned souls and shower their mercy within the material energy. That is why after the maha samadhi of any Gaudiya Vaisnava his true followers will chant "nitya lila pravistha om visnupada etc. . . in the dhvani prayers that glorify Sri Guru, after kirtana ends. In one sense pure devotees never "leave" goloka. They bring it with them wherever they serve.

 

 

The spiritual master's position is confirmed in the guruvastakam prayers of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and in the songs of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Narottama das thakura as well.

********************************

 

". . . Samadhi is a Sanskrit word consisting of the two syllables: sama-dhi. Sama means “the same” and dhi means “intelligence”. It means that the pure devotee who is departing from this world is entering the same level, same position and same mood as the personal associates of his worshipful deity – with equal intelligence, equal beauty and equal qualities. He is serving properly according to his own svarupa (constitutional form). Srila Svami Maharaja’s worshipful deity is Srimati Radhika, and he is serving Her under the guidance of Her personal associates, the manjaris, headed by Sri Rupa Manjari. . . .

 

nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai

ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya

tatrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya

vande guroh sri caranaravindam (6)

 

["Sri Gurudeva is always present with the sakhis, planning the arrangements for the perfection of yugala-kisora’s amorous pastimes (rati-keli) within the kunjas of Vrndavana. Because he is so expert in making these tasteful arrangements for Their pleasure, he is very dear to Sri Radha and Krsna. I offer prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva."

 

from:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=Title align=middle>How Deep is the Mountain?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

ISKCON Juhu Beach temple, Mumbai, 1993

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/sbnm_early_hditm.shtml

 

DISCUSSION ON SRI GURVASTAKAM, 1-5

(Meditation Center, Germany,

December 2, 2000, am

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20001202am.shtml

[Shivam]

Isn't the goal of all Devotees to Worship the Lotus Feet of Lord Sri Krishna?

Srila Prabhupada was influencial in spreading this way of thinking, thus I believe that he has received his wish in serving at the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna (Hence the reason his murti is present in mostly all ISKCON temples).

 

Hare Krsna

[JLdd]

Hare Krsna,

 

When Sp left us, he left us a way to worship him. He was not forced to stay. I have no idea how he comes back to get those of us who are not able to finish up in this lifetime. He went to the place where his preaching is most important. I do know that where ever he is, he is preaching.

 

YS

JayaLalitadd

[Guest guest]

According to Srila Prabhupada;

 

The spiritual master's eternal occupation is to expand the service of the Lord by training disciples in a service attitude. (Adi 1 - 44 purport)

 

So, according to these words of Srila Prabhupada he is still performing the same service he was performing before he left his body.

Narada Muni is another example of a pure devotee whose eternal service is to preach and expand the service of the Lord by training disciples.

 

Srila Prabhupada is still creating many devotees all over the world with his books, tapes and videos. He is still trying to finish what he started with these disciples, but the ISKCON GBC doesn't seem to be cooperating.

 

This cannot be pleasing to Srila Prabhupada.

[Puru_Das]

 

 

 

A Sadhu is Always Present

 

 

 

by Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja

 

 

 

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada always emphasized that he was eternally present in his books, instructions, tapes and letters. So when you say we should take association of a sadhu, can we do that through Srila Prabhupada’s books?

Gour Govinda Swami: If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, to associate with him and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Do you hear from Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?

Devotee: Through his books.

Gour Govind Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through their books. This is not a new thing. This is our vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, “Oh I have read their books; I have their asociation.” That won’t help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, “We need only to read books. There is no need of associating with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all.” Your motto is, “Seeing is believing.” You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul, your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krishna is there, can you see Him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision, and then you can see Krishna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there. It is not a fact that sadhus are not present. How is everything going on? How does the sun rise, the wind blow, and Indra give rain? All these things are going on. No sadhu? No Krishna? It’s nonsense, foolishness. We are so proud and puffed up. We are identifying ourself as the body, mind and false ego. We think we are very great. So we say, “Oh, there is no sadhu.” We are in the category of identification with the body and mind.We have not come to the beginning of the stage of purity. No!

Devotee: So we have to associate with a living sadhu? 1

Gour Govinda Swami: Definately. 2 There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perceptoin, you cannot see him. No, no, no.

You always think that you are drasta, the seer, and that the sadhu is drsta, the one to be seen. Everyone is like this. They think they are the seers. But it is just the reverse. You are to be seen and they are the seer! Think this over very deeply. I think you cannot completely understand what I say. We always think that we are the seer and that they are to be seen, but this is not a fact. It is just the reverse. They are the seers and we are to be seen.

Devotee: How are we seen by sadhu? By our service?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, the sadhu is the seer. If he showers his mercy upon you, he sees you. If you receive that merciful glance then you are very fortuntae. However, you are in the category of bodily consciousness. How can you have it? Guru is the manifestation of the Supersoul, caitya-guru in the heart. He manifests a body and appears. He knows your heart.

Devotee: I don’t quite understand.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, try to understand. As I told you, just hear patiently. A new bhakta cannot understand it because it is a topic of the highest class. You are in pre-primary class, how can you understand? You are not even in the primary class. How can you understand this topic of the highest class? Just accept the bona fide authorities. That will help you. The teacher says, “Two plus two is four.” The primary student accepts it. If the teacher asks the child, “What is two plus two?” The child will reply, “Two plus two is four.” “ Why is two plus two four?” “My teacher says.” He will answer like this. That means he has accepted authority. This is the only principle in the beginning. How is two plus two four? Why not three or five? That will be explained in a higher mathematics class, not in the beginning. You have to have patience and get a promotion. My guru maharaja says in his purport that the beginning is purity of consciousness. First come to this beginning stage, then gradually other things will come up. You are not in the beginning stage, so how will the higher topics come up? This is a very, very subtle and very deep philosophy.

Putting full faith in the sadhu, you need only submissively hear --- sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. In that way you can get the mercy of that sadhu. That will help you. Only one thing is required, nothing else --- sravanam, sravana, sravanam. Just hear. Serve that sadhu, please him, hear submissively, surrender yourself at his lotus feet and submissively ask questions. Out of mercy the sadhu will impart this tattva jnana to you. This is the only process.

Unless you get association with a living sadhu, what can you do? Will you put some question to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada will answer you? This process is a living thing. It is always there, and it is always current. It is not that inquiry was done a certain way in the past and now things are done differently. No! It is an eternal process, pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya.

---The Process of Inquiry, Chapter Six. Gopal Jiu Publications.

 

 

 

APPENDIX

 

1

 

 

 

TEXT 53

 

 

 

 

 

 

bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani'

 

 

 

bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani

 

 

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. 2 One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

Cc. Antya lila, Ch. 7. Txt 53

Translation and Purport by

His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

2

 

 

 

TEXT 131

 

 

 

 

"yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane

 

 

 

ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane

 

 

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

yaha--just go; bhagavata pada--read Srimad-Bhagavatam; vaisnavera sthane--from a self-realized Vaisnava; ekanta asraya kara--fully surrender; caitanya-carane--at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

"If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam," he said, "you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

Herein Svarupa Damodara Gosvami instructs the poet from Bengal to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a pure Vaisnava and learn from him. In India especially, there is now a class of professional Bhagavatam readers whose means of livelihood is to go from village to village, town to town, reading Bhagavatam and collecting daksina, or rewards, in the form of money or goods, like umbrellas, cloth and fruit. Thus there is now a system of Bhagavata business, with recitations called Bhagavata-saptaha that continue for one week, although this is not mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Nowhere does Srimad-Bhagavatam say that the Bhagavatam should be heard for one week from professionals. Rather, Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.17) says: srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. One should regularly hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. By such hearing, one becomes pious. Hrdy antahstho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt-satam. As one thus hears the Bhagavatam regularly and sincerely, his heart is purified of all material contamination.

nasta-prayesv abhadresu

nityam bhagavata-sevaya

bhagavaty uttama-sloke

bhaktir bhavati naisthiki

"As one regularly hears the Bhagavatam or renders service unto the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact." (Bhag. 1.2.18)

This is the proper process, but people are accustomed to being misled by professional Bhagavatam reciters. Therefore Svarupa Damodara Gosvami herein advises that one should not hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from professional reciters. Instead, one must hear and learn the Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. Sometimes it is seen that when a Mayavadi sannyasi reads the Bhagavatam, flocks of men go to hear jugglery of words that cannot awaken their dormant love for Krsna. Sometimes people go to see professional dramas and offer food and money to the players, who are expert at collecting these offerings very nicely. The result is that the members of the audience remain in the same position of grham andha-kupam, family affection, and do not awaken their love for Krsna.

In the Bhagavatam (7.5.30), it is said, matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam: the grhavratas, those who are determined to continue following the materialistic way of life, will never awaken their dormant love of Krsna, fur they hear the Bhagavatam only to solidify their position in household life and to be happy in family affairs and sex. Condemning this process of hearing the Bhagavatam from professionals, Svarupa Damodara Gosvami says, yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane: "To understand the Srimad-Bhagavatam, you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava." One should rigidly avoid hearing the Bhagavatam from a Mayavadi or other nondevotee who simply performs a grammatical jugglery of words to twist some meaning from the text, collect money from the innocent public, and thus keep people in darkness.

Svarupa Damodara Gosvami strictly prohibits the behavior of the materialistic so-called hearers of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Instead of awakening real love for Krsna, such hearers of the Bhagavatam become more and more attached to household affairs and sex life (yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham). One should hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a person who has no connection with material activities, or, in other words, from a paramahamsa Vaisnava, one who has achieved the highest stage of sannyasa. This, of course, is not possible unless one takes shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Srimad-Bhagavatam is understandable only for one who can follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Cc. Antya lila, Ch. 5, Txt 131

Translation and Purport by

His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

 

<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>

 

 

 

Return to

 

[Puru_Das]

<CENTER>Questions and Answers

 

</CENTER>Devotee #1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape?

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no.

Devotee #2: Only when you are personally sitting there with a pure vaisnava?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Now in this material scientific age so many techniques are there. People, say, "No more teacher are required. We'll teach through television." Nonsense. Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #3: What if one is a disciple of a bonafide guru, then later on that guru stops his lila. What should one do?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Lila is always there:

adyapiha sei lila kare gaura-raya,

 

kona kona bhagyavan dekhibare paya

 

(Cb. quoted in Bhaktivinode Thakur's Navadvipa Mahatmya Pramana-khanda)

 

Gauranga's pastimes are still going on. People say, "Oh Gauranga Mahaprabhu has disappeared." One who is very fortunate and has vision he can see how gaura-lila is going on.

Devotee #3: That means that guru is always there?

Gour Govinda Swami:Yes. He is always there. His lila is going on.

Devotee #3: I may think, "I have already taken the dust of the lotus feet of my guru. Now he is not here. So I don't need that dust anymore."

Gour Govinda Swami: Darsana is there. The guru is always there if you have the eye to see. If you are a sat-sisya you can always see how the guru is present.

Devotee #4: How can we see guru?

Gour Govinda Swami: Blind man! If you are endowed with that vision you can see.I never lost sight of my guru. I see my guru is always there. Therefore I cannot say,"nitya-lila-pravistha". It is so painful to me. No! He is here.

Devotee #4: Do you have to be a pure dovotee to see a pure devotee?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes! That vision is required. If you have no vision then you are a blind man.How can a blind man see? The object is there. What is required to see the object? The first thing is the eye. Next is light. You may be endowed with vision, but if there is no light, how can you see? Can you see in the darkness? Therefore two things are required, first vision and then light. Even if you are endowed with eyes, if there is no light then you can't see. What is that light? The enlightenment by the mercy potency. If you are devoid of that, how can you see?

Devotee #5: Anarthas are like clouds in front of the eye?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Yes. Anarthas are like clouds covering the sun. The eye is covered.

Devotee #2: Can one see guru appearing in different forms, or is he coming in dreams?

Gour Govinda Swami: He may come in a dream. He has different forms also, just as Krishna has different forms. Krishna has so many manifestations. Therefor we have described in our book Sri Guru-vandana about samasti-guru and vyasti-guru.

Devotee #6: What are those kind of gurus?

Gour Govinda Swami: Guru Krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane (Cc. adi-lila1.45} -- scripture describes that it is Krishna who appears as guru.

Krishna is one. Guru tattva is also one. Guru is one, but he appears in different, different, forms. That is samasti-guru. The particular forms such as Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Bhakitisiddhanta, this person and that, this is vyasti-guru.

Devotee #3: When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati left, guru was still there?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.

Devotee #3: Guru is always present?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, always present.

Devotee #3: Because guru is non-different from Krishna we understand that to be a guru is not an easy thing. So why is it said that someone maybe on the level of kanistha or madhyama and be guru?

Gour Govinda Swami: All are gurus. There is kanistha-guru, madhyama-guru, uttama-gurus. Divisions are there. What you deserve you get. Krishna knows what you deserve so He makes an appropriate arrangement for you.

Devotee #7: Some devotees are not accepting guru now. They are saying, "I'll just accept sastra.

Gour Govinda Swami: How can you understand sastra?

Devotee #7: But we have seen, as in Russia, that some devotees have only gotten books and they are now chanting, worshiping the deity, and preaching.

Gour Govinda Swami: You cannot understand. In sastra, mantra is there. Nama is there. But unless it comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, your chanting will never be effective. The potency will never be there.

Devotee #7: But they say that smrti-sastra is coming from the lips of vaisnavas, so we are heaing smrti.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. This is how sastra manifests. When is comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, then it manifests. Though sastra is there, by itself it will never manifest to you. It's a question of manifestation.

Devotee #7: Other persons say that we can hear from the commentaries of the vaisnava-acaryas.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: For that reason it is said,

bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam

 

na buddhya na ca tikaya

 

Srimad Bhagavatam can only be understood by bhakti, not be dint of one's intelligence or by reading commentaries. (Cc.24.313)

You cannot understand Bhagavata by taking help of the tikas, commentaries. So many commentaries are there. One may think, "Yes, I am a scholar. It is all written in Sanskrit. I know the language so I can read and understand it." No! You can only understand Srimad Bhagavatam by bhakti. You cannot understand Bhagavata by dint of your material scholarship, learning, intelligence, or by taking the help of the commentaries. No, no. Hear from acarya and then you can develop bhakti. Unless you hear, how can you understand just by reading? You cannot understand. Grantha-avatara will never manifest to you. You will only see paper, and black and white. Nothing else.

Devotee #7: Then what is the meaning of the brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has said that our kirtana is brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana, the printing press.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. That will inspire you. Just one book distributed spreads so far. First you read the book and then one friend says, "Oh, let me read it." Then he lets someone else read it. In this way it sprads so much. The sound of the mrdanga only goes rom here to there. But the brhad-mrdanga spreads so far. That will inspire you. You will think, "Who is the source? Let me go and see and hear from him."

Devotee #7: So first you hear and then if you read the same thing in the sastra...

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. It is only in Kali-yuga that books are required.. In other yugas there are no books. Just by hearing once they would never forget. But in this yuga, if I ask you to repeat what you have heard after the class, how much can you repeat? You will have already forgotton ninety to ninety-five percent. Only five percent you may be able to repeat. Books are required. Therefore Vyasadev came and wrote books. In other yugas there are no books. They will help you remember, "Oh yes. I have heard. Now it is here."

Devotee #7: In your book Sri Guru-vandana, you have described this flow of nectar as padma-madhu.You said that it comes to a devotee who is a sincere hearer. So someone who is very sincere to hear from guru and serves guru, he may get that nectar even though he may not have physical contact?

Gour Govinda Swami: You should be greedy. Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru.

 

 

<HR>

[Guest guest]

 

Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru.

 

Then why are you posting so many things on the internet written by deceased sadhus?

If there is no spiritual power in their words, then why did so many great acharyas leave books and commentaries?

 

You are using tapes and books to prove that there is no potency in tapes and books.

 

That seems like a very peculiar position for a person that has created a memorial library of the all the writtings so many acharyas and devotees.

 

If you don't believe in the power of these books and tapes, then why have you amassed such a collection?

[Guest guest]

 

Because the Srimad-Bhagavatam deals with questions and answers that are related to Krsna, we can derive the highest satisfaction ONLY by READING and HEARING this transcendental literature. One should learn the Srimad-Bhagavatam and make an all-around solution to all problems pertaining to social, political or religious matters. Srimad-Bhagavatam and Krsna are the sum total of all things.

 

SB 2 - 5 purport

[Beggar]

 

If you don't believe in the power of these books and tapes, then why have you amassed such a collection?

 

In the essay "Thakura Bhaktivinode", Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has written, “THE ABSOLUTE APPEARS TO THE LISTENING EAR OF THE CONDITIONED SOUL IN THE FORM OF THE NAME ON THE LIPS OF THE SADHU. THIS IS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE POSITION.” “KRSNA'S DARSAN CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF THE EAR AS ONE HEARS HARI-KATHA FROM PURE VAISNAVAS; THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.” Here's the apparent contradiction right before our eyes. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura is writing this for us to read. Yet he appears to contradict himself if we follow your line of thought, but of course he does not. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would always say that, "there is gradation everywhere". This means that Gaudiya Vaisnavas don't see black and white but rather shades of gray. (By the way this is metaphorical). So the written and electronically records of the transcendental sound vibration are there to help us understand transcendental knowledge. If we read carefully then we will develop the sukriti and consequently the desire to associate with a pure sadhu and here the sabda brahma from his or her lotus lips. If no such sadhu is available then we will draw our inspiration from such books and electronic recordings. But it is a serious error to assume that no such soul is available even after an exhaustive search. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say, "suspicion breads suspension". A cynical attitude is hard to harmonize with Srila Prabhupada's concept of "love and trust".

[Guest guest]

Who is Srila Prabhupada in Nitya Lila...

 

I've heard many different things... Of course Srila Narayana Maharaja knows, but he can't tell because who can actually REALLY understand who Srila Prabhupada is.

 

I also heard that Gour Govinda Goswami knew and told a few people.

 

It'll be interesting to see what pops out in the coming years.

 

Also, you can have more than one svarupa... You CAN be a sakha and a sakhi in Goloka.

[Puru_Das]

 

Then why are you posting so many things on the internet written by deceased sadhus??

 

Devotee #7: Then what is the meaning of the brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has said that our kirtana is brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana, the printing press.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. That will inspire you. Just one book distributed spreads so far. First you read the book and then one friend says, "Oh, let me read it." Then he lets someone else read it. In this way it sprads so much. The sound of the mrdanga only goes rom here to there. But the brhad-mrdanga spreads so far. That will inspire you. You will think, "Who is the source? Let me go and see and hear from him."

 

Devotee #7: So first you hear and then if you read the same thing in the sastra...

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. It is only in Kali-yuga that books are required.. In other yugas there are no books. Just by hearing once they would never forget. But in this yuga, if I ask you to repeat what you have heard after the class, how much can you repeat? You will have already forgotton ninety to ninety-five percent. Only five percent you may be able to repeat. Books are required. Therefore Vyasadev came and wrote books. In other yugas there are no books. They will help you remember, "Oh yes. I have heard. Now it is here."

 

Devotee #7: In your book Sri Guru-vandana, you have described this flow of nectar as padma-madhu.You said that it comes to a devotee who is a sincere hearer. So someone who is very sincere to hear from guru and serves guru, he may get that nectar even though he may not have physical contact?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: You should be greedy. Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru.

 

 

 

If there is no spiritual power in their words, then why did so many great acharyas leave books and commentaries??

 

Those are your words, not mine. Kindly don't put words in my mouth. I am repeating what Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja instructed and what Srila Prabhupada wrote on this practical matter. Argue with them, not me.

 

 

You are using tapes and books to prove that there is no potency in tapes and books.??

 

I have never said or written that transcendental literatures lack potency. The Srimad Bhagavatam states very clearly that it is non different than Sri Krsna. However, you cannot deny the practical instructions written in the books, and commentaries of our acaryas. In Bg. 4.34 Sri Krsna says to approach a bona fide spiritual master, inquire from him submissively and render service. That such a self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because He has seen the truth. So if you read that and then don't act on it of what value is your reading?

 

 

That seems like a very peculiar position for a person that has created a memorial library of the all the writtings so many acharyas and devotees.

If you don't believe in the power of these books and tapes, then why have you amassed such a collection?

 

The bvml staff believes wholeheartedly that the words of our acaryas, spoken and written, are the most valuable legacy meant for the eternal benefit of all jiva souls. Their careful study under the guidance of a sad-guru is an essential element of actually practicing bhakti-yoga or Krsna consciousness.

Kindly examine these two lectures by His Divine Grace:

 

Learn Bhagavatam From The Living Bhagavata

by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

http://bvml.org/ACBSP/lbtlb.htm

 

 

Hear The Discourses Given By Self-Realized Souls

by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

http://bvml.org/ACBSP/htdsrs.htm

 

 

How to maximize the benefit of the words left by our acaryas and practically apply the information given in their commentaries is called vijnana. Rtvks and others can try to minmize and even eliminate the importance of the vapuh association of pure devotees and hearing directly from them, but to no avail. The books and commentaries speak for themselves. Kindly examine this compilation from Srila Prabhupada's books and statements regarding sadhu-sanga.

 

108 Srila Prabhupada Quotes

On the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devote

http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm

 

KC started manifesting in this universe with Lord Brahma's direct hearing from Sri Krsna, and the transmission of knowledge continues the same way .

 

"One must learn the transcendental subject by submissive aural reception from the right sources. . . . "

Purport SB 1.5.

HDGACBSP

 

". . . The acarya or the gosvami must be well acquainted with all these literatures. To hear and explain them is more important than reading them. One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining. Hearing is called sravana, and explaining is called kirtana. The two processes of sravana and kirtana are of primary importance to progressive spiritual life. Only one who has properly grasped the transcendental knowledge from the right source by submissive hearing can properly explain the subject. . . . "

Purport 1.6 SB

HDGACBSP

 

at present and in future; Try reading the books and commentaries under the guidance of a sad guru and then any apparant contradictions are easily resolved, otherwise not.

Srila Prabhupada gave the analogy of the medical library so many times in his lectures. Without the direciton of living physicians and medical professors you will not even know which medical books to read and which to avoid. When you know which books are required you can then read them . To become a licensed bona fide physician you must also associate and learn directly from other medical men.

 

Many devotees forget that from l965-l977 we read Srila Prabhupada's books under his guidance and simultaneously hearing from him directly. If the books were all that were required then why didn't His Divine Grace simply send books around the world, and stay put in India? Why did he travel extensively so many times around the planet? To give us his vapuh association and to give his disciples the opportunity to hear from his lotus lips and associate with his vapuh manifestation.

 

Disciplic Succession means that after the departure of any sad-guru, another qualified personality, self-effulgent acarya, will manifest to continue to assist, encourage and direct sincere souls back to Godhead. The guru parampara did not stop dead or end with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as rtvks would like you to believe. That is sectarian thinking couched in the guise of KC. His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said in l936:

 

"

Gentlemen, on behalf of the members of the Bombay branch of the Gaudiya Math, let me welcome you all because you have so kindly joined us tonight in our congregational offerings of homage to the lotus feet of the world teacher, acaryadeva, who is the founder of this Gaudiya Mission and is the President-acarya of Sri Sri Visva Vaisnava Raja Sabha-I mean my eternal divine master, Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya, Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja.

Sixty-two years ago, on this auspicious day, the acaryadeva made his appearance by the call of Thakura Bhaktivinoda at Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Dhama at Puri.

Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else’s.

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.

 

In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:

 

 

 

<CENTER>tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

</CENTER>"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth."

Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly. . . "

http://bvml.org/ACBSP/oeg.htm

 

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharja has written:

 

"Our most worshipable spiritual master Sri Srila Prabhupada (SBSST)has bestowed his affectionate blessings not only to his disciples, but to his grand-disciples and all those who will in the future come to this line of disciplic succession. There is no cause for loss of hope or fear, for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's line will never cease. This is the assurance of Sri Srila Prabhupada, the world teacher. He is eternally present among us. He is my Lord birth after birth, he is my only source of strength and those following in his footsteps should take his merciful instructions on their heads by mutually cooperating with each other, with Jagat Guru Sri Srila Prabhupada as the center, and try to fulfill his desires in serving the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. All perfection will be attained on pleasing Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada."

http://bvml.org/ACBSP/oeg.htm

 

His Divine Grace Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada

said: " This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, "There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future" is an atheistic opinion."

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written:

 

Excerpt from Sri Bhakti Tattva Viveka by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

"Most respectable Vaisnavas! Our sole objective is to relish and propagate the nectar of suddha-bhakti unto Lord Hari. Therefore, our foremost duty is to understand the true nature for suddha bhakti. This understanding will benefit us in two ways. First, knowing the true nature of suddha-bhakti will dispel our ignorance concerning the topic of bhakti and thus make our human life successful by allowing us to relish the nectar derived form engaging in suddha-bhakti in its pure form. Secondly, it will enable us to protect ourselves from the polluted and mixed concepts which currently exist in the name of suddha-bhakti.

 

Unfortunately, in present day society in the name of suddha-bhakti various types of mixed devotion such as karma-misra (mixed with fruitive action), jnana-misra (mixed with speculative knowledge and yoga-misra (mixed with various types of yoga processes) as well as various polluted and imaginary concepts are spreading everywhere like germs of a plague. People in general consider these polluted and mixed conceptions to be bhakti, respect them as such and thus remain deprived of suddha-bhakti. These polluted and mixed concepts are our greatest enemies.

 

Some people say there is no value in bhakti, that God is an imaginary sentiment only, that man has merely created the image of God in his imagination, and that bhakti is just a diseased state of consciousness which cannot benefit us in any way. These types of people, though opposed to bhakti, cannot do much harm to us because we can easily recognise them and avoid them. But those who propagate that bhagavad-bhakti is the highest dharma yet behave against the principles of suddha-bhakti and also instruct others against the principles of suddha-bhakti can be especially harmful to us. In the name of bhakti they instruct us against the actual principles of bhakti and ultimately lead us onto a path which is totally opposed to bhagavad-bhakti.

 

Therefore, with great endeavour our previous acaryas have defined the svarupa or intrinsic nature of bhakti and have repeatedly cautioned us to keep ourselves away from polluted and mixed concepts. We shall deliberate on their instructions in sequence. They have compiled numerous literatures to establish the svarupa of bhakti, and amongst them Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is the most beneficial. In defining the general characteristics of suddha-bhakti, Srila Rupa Goswami has written there (verse 1.1.11):

anyabhilasita sunyam jnana-karmady anavrtam

anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama

 

"The cultivation of activities which are meant exclusively for the pleasure of Sri Krsna, or in other words the uninterrupted flow of service to Sri Krsna, performed through all endeavors of the body, mind, and speech, and through the expression of various spiritual sentiments ( bhavas), which is not covered by jnana (knowledge aimed at impersonal liberation) and karma (reward-seeking activity), and which is devoid of all desires other than the aspiration to bring happiness to Sri Krsna, is called uttama-bhakti, pure devotional service."

[Puru_Das]

 

In the essay "Thakura Bhaktivinode", Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has written, “THE ABSOLUTE APPEARS TO THE LISTENING EAR OF THE CONDITIONED SOUL IN THE FORM OF THE NAME ON THE LIPS OF THE SADHU. THIS IS THE KEY TO THE WHOLE POSITION.” “KRSNA'S DARSAN CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF THE EAR AS ONE HEARS HARI-KATHA FROM PURE VAISNAVAS; THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.” Here's the apparent contradiction right before our eyes. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura is writing this for us to read. Yet he appears to contradict himself if we follow your line of thought, but of course he does not. . . ".

 

Beggar, Thank you very much for posting this information and your comments. The entire essay can be found and read here:

 

http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm

 

In this brilliant essay SBSST defeats the rtvk manifesto two generations before it even reared its ugly atheistic head. He wrote:

 

"Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name "Krishna". Every reader of Thakur Bhaktivinode's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakur Bhaktivinode and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krishna by the process conveyed by the words. . .

 

"What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees.

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers.His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.