Is Prabhupad in Goloka?

[theist]

I hope the day will come soon when the followers of Narayana Maharaja come to accept the fact that others have chosen to accept the FULL presence of Srila Prabhupada in his instructions and have no desire to ever assume otherwise.

 

The followers of Narayana Maharaja need not even accept that those souls are correct in their realizations. Respecting the fact that we are all free will particles of Krsna they could just agree to disagree and respect the right of others to hold a different view. Krsna gives every soul this right so why are we bothered but those who excercise this option slightly differently. It's none of our business.

 

Continually year after year obsessively harping on this point is just a sign of a fanatic.

 

Not meaning to be offensive but this is how I honestly feel.

[Puru_Das]

I have successfully adjusted font size.

[Puru_Das]

A godbrother asked me to post these references from bvml.org

to make some of the topics under discussion here more clear from Srila Prabhupada's vanih.

 

#1With regard to whether reading books is sufficient?

 

Conversation with Srila Prabhupada

May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia

 

Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”

Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain.

From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1

Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13

*************************************************

TEXT 53

 

TEXT

bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani'

bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani

 

SYNONYMS

bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words.

 

TRANSLATION

Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service.

 

PURPORT

Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

Cc. Antya lila 7.53

HSDGACBSP

 

#2 With regard to the potency of the Srimad Bhagavatam and how to understand it:

 

TEXT 18

 

TEXT

nasta-prayesv abhadresu

nityam bhagavata-sevaya

bhagavaty uttama-sloke

bhaktir bhavati naisthiki

 

SYNONYMS

nasta--destroyed; prayesu--almost to nil; abhadresu--all that is inauspicious; nityam--regularly; bhagavata--Srimad-Bhagavatam, or the pure devotee; sevaya--by serving; bhagavati--unto the Personality of Godhead; uttama--transcendental; sloke--prayers; bhaktih--loving service; bhavati--comes into being; naisthiki--irrevocable.

 

TRANSLATION

By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

 

PURPORT

 

Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical.

The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on.

SB 1.2.18

HDGACBSP

************************************************** *

 

 

TEXT 131

TEXT

"yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane

ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane

 

SYNONYMS

yaha--just go; bhagavata pada--read Srimad-Bhagavatam; vaisnavera sthane--from a self-realized Vaisnava; ekanta asraya kara--fully surrender; caitanya-carane--at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

TRANSLATION

"If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam," he said, "you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

PURPORT

 

Herein Svarupa Damodara Gosvami instructs the poet from Bengal to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a pure Vaisnava and learn from him. In India especially, there is now a class of professional Bhagavatam readers whose means of livelihood is to go from village to village, town to town, reading Bhagavatam and collecting daksina, or rewards, in the form of money or goods, like umbrellas, cloth and fruit. Thus there is now a system of Bhagavata business, with recitations called Bhagavata-saptaha that continue for one week, although this is not mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Nowhere does Srimad-Bhagavatam say that the Bhagavatam should be heard for one week from professionals. Rather, Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.17) says: srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. One should regularly hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. By such hearing, one becomes pious. Hrdy antahstho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt-satam. As one thus hears the Bhagavatam regularly and sincerely, his heart is purified of all material contamination.

nasta-prayesv abhadresu

nityam bhagavata-sevaya

bhagavaty uttama-sloke

bhaktir bhavati naisthiki

"As one regularly hears the Bhagavatam or renders service unto the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact." (Bhag. 1.2.18)

This is the proper process, but people are accustomed to being misled by professional Bhagavatam reciters. Therefore Svarupa Damodara Gosvami herein advises that one should not hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from professional reciters. Instead, one must hear and learn the Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnava. Sometimes it is seen that when a Mayavadi sannyasi reads the Bhagavatam, flocks of men go to hear jugglery of words that cannot awaken their dormant love for Krsna. Sometimes people go to see professional dramas and offer food and money to the players, who are expert at collecting these offerings very nicely. The result is that the members of the audience remain in the same position of grham andha-kupam, family affection, and do not awaken their love for Krsna.

In the Bhagavatam (7.5.30), it is said, matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam: the grhavratas, those who are determined to continue following the materialistic way of life, will never awaken their dormant love of Krsna, for they hear the Bhagavatam only to solidify their position in household life and to be happy in family affairs and sex. Condemning this process of hearing the Bhagavatam from professionals, Svarupa Damodara Gosvami says, yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane: "To understand the Srimad-Bhagavatam, you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava." One should rigidly avoid hearing the Bhagavatam from a Mayavadi or other nondevotee who simply performs a grammatical jugglery of words to twist some meaning from the text, collect money from the innocent public, and thus keep people in darkness.

Svarupa Damodara Gosvami strictly prohibits the behavior of the materialistic so-called hearers of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Instead of awakening real love for Krsna, such hearers of the Bhagavatam become more and more attached to household affairs and sex life (yanmaithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham). One should hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a person who has no connection with material activities, or, in other words, from a paramahamsa Vaisnava, one who has achieved the highest stage of sannyasa. This, of course, is not possible unless one takes shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Srimad-Bhagavatam is understandable only for one who can follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Cc. Anyta lila Ch. 5. Txt 131

HDGACBSP

 

#3 With regard as to what it means to be Krsna Conscious:

 

TEXT 265

 

TEXT

krsna-tattva, bhakti-tattva, prema-tattva sara

bhava-tattva, rasa-tattva, lila-tattva ara

 

SYNONYMS

 

krsna-tattva--the truth of Krsna; bhakti-tattva--the truth of devotional service; prema-tattva--the truth of ecstatic love of Godhead; sara--the essence; bhava-tattva--the emotional truth; rasa-tattva--the truth of transcendental mellow; lila-tattva--the truth of pastimes of the Lord; ara--also.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Krsna consciousness means understanding the truth of Krsna, the truth of devotional service, the truth of love of Godhead, the truth of emotional ecstasy, the truth of transcendental mellow and the truth of the pastimes of the Lord.

 

Cc. Madhya lila Ch. 25 Txt 265

HDGACBSP

******************************************************

 

TEXT 271

 

TEXT

 

krsna-lila amrta-sara, tara sata sata dhara,

dasa-dike vahe yaha haite

se caitanya-lila haya, sarovara aksaya,

mano-hamsa caraha' tahate

 

SYNONYMS

 

krsna-lila amrta-sara--the pastimes of Lord Krsna are the essence of all eternal bliss; tara sata sata dhara--the flow of that eternal bliss is running in hundreds of branches; dasa-dike--in all the ten directions; vahe--flows; yaha haite--from which; se--those; caitanya-lila--pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; haya--are; sarovara aksaya--a transcendental eternal lake; manah-hamsa--my mind, which is like a swan; caraha'--please wander; tahate--in that lake.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The pastimes of Lord Krsna are the essence of all nectar. They flow in hundreds of rivulets and in all directions. The pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are an eternal reservoir, and one is advised to let his mind swim like a swan on this transcendental lake.

 

PURPORT

 

The essence of spiritual knowledge is found in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, which are identical with the pastimes of Lord Krsna. This is the essence of knowledge. If knowledge does not include the understanding of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Krsna, it is simply superfluous. By Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's grace, the nectar of Lord Sri Krsna's pastimes is flowing in different directions in hundreds and thousands of rivers. One should not think that the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are different from Krsna's pastimes. It is said: sri-krsna-caitanya, radha-krsna nahe anya. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a combination of Radha-Krsna, and without understanding His pastimes, one cannot understand Radha and Krsna. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura therefore sings: rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti. kabe hama bujhaba se yugala piriti. "When shall I become very eager to study the books left by the six Gosvamis? Then I shall be able to understand the conjugal pastimes of Radha and Krsna." Caitanya Mahaprabhu directly empowered Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami. Following in their footsteps, the other six Gosvamis understood Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His mission. One should understand Sri Krsna Caitanya and Lord Sri Krsna from the Gosvamis in the parampara system. This Krsna consciousness movement is following as strictly as possible in the footsteps of the Gosvamis. Narottama dasa Thakura says, ei chaya gosani yara, mui tara dasa: "I am the servant of the six Gosvamis." The philosophy of Krsna consciousness is to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord. Whoever wants to understand the difficult subject matter of krsna-katha should accept the disciplic succession. If one is somehow or other able to understand Krsna, his life will be successful. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna. A perfect devotee is able to understand Krsna through the disciplic succession, and his entrance into the kingdom of God is thereby certainly opened. When one understands Krsna, there is no difficulty in transferring oneself to the spiritual kingdom.

 

Cc. Madhya 25.271

HDGACBSP

 

#4 With regard to why many give lip service to accepting HDGACBSP but have a problem placing faith in a current living person bhagavata:

 

". . . After hearing such praise of Nimai Pandita’s logical reasoning, Vrajanatha Nyaya-pancanana became quite curious to hear His arguments. With difficulty, he was able to collect a few of those arguments from various sources. Human nature is such that when one develops faith in a particular subject, he will naturally feel regard for the teachers of that subject. Moreover, for various reasons, common people do not easily develop faith in exalted personalities who are still living, whereas they tend to develop great faith in the activities of mahajanas who have passed away. Nyaya-pancanana developed unshakable faith in Nimai Pandita by studying his logical thesis."

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 12

[theist]

Yeah and there are conversations where Prabhupada is asked if one can get the same benefit of association with a pure devotee just by reading his commentaries. I remember posting that when we had this discussion on VNN years ago prabhu. If two statements appear to be contradictory I will take the one based on my own preconceptions and not give emphasis to the other and you may do the same while giving more weight to the other seemingly opposing statement.

 

I just question the value of continually trading back and forth year after year.

 

Besides no one that accepts Prabhupada's instructions as being representative of his presence will deny the value of having one who can help us understand Prabhupada's teachings more clearly availabale for hearing from in the body. It is not a one or the other proposition.

 

Puru, you are such a learned and experienced person in sadhana bhakti. Why not speak on other Krsna conscious subjects for our edification?

[Puru_Das]

 

Yeah and there are conversations where Prabhupada is asked if one can get the same benefit of association with a pure devotee just by reading his commentaries. I remember posting that when we had this discussion on VNN years ago prabhu. If two statements appear to be contradictory I will take the one based on my own preconceptions and not give emphasis to the other and you may do the same while giving more weight to the other seemingly opposing statement.?

 

Apparant contradictions in the vanih of any Gaudiya acarya, can only be resolved by consulting the predecessor acaryas, and/or a living representative of the guru parampara and making relevent submisive inquiry. Also you well know that many of His Divine Grace's letters are pertinent instructions for time and circumstance, and we give greater strenth to the evidence in his books.

 

Do as you wish prabhu. I can't see how discrimination based on your own preconceptions will help you advance. What about this verse and purport?

 

TEXT 71

TEXT

rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama

ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana

SYNONYMS

rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms.

TRANSLATION

"A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed.

The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna.

It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.

Cc. Madhya lila 22.71

 

 

 

I just question the value of continually trading back and forth year after year.

 

Besides no one that accepts Prabhupada's instructions as being representative of his presence will deny the value of having one who can help us understand Prabhupada's teachings more clearly availabale for hearing from in the body. It is not a one or the other proposition.

 

Puru, you are such a learned and experienced person in sadhana bhakti. Why not speak on other Krsna conscious subjects for our edification?

 

thanks for the confidence, but I am a struggling sub kanistha and still a very much conditioned soul.

 

The tit for tat will go on forever. That is the nature of kali yuga. Srila Bhaktivinoda thakura wrote:

 

 

"Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people. A rule that is followed by one society is not necessarily accepted in another society. That is why one community is different from another. As a community gradually develops more respect for its own standards, it develops hatred towards other communities and considers their standards inferior. These sectarian symptoms are seen in all countries since time immemorial. This is prominent amongst neophytes and found to some extent amongst madhyama-adhikaris. Amongst uttama-adhikaris, however, there is no trace of sectarianism. Adherence to a particular standard is the prominent symptom of a society. There are three types of standards-alocakagata, alocanagata, and alocyagata. Alocakagata is when sectarianists accept some external signs. Examples of alocakagata are tilaka, neck beads, saffron robes, and the baptism that is practiced abroad.

 

The different activities practiced in the process of worship are called alocanagata. Examples of alocanagata are sacrifices, austerities, fire sacrifices, vows, studying scriptures, deity worship, constructing temples, respecting the purity of various trees and rivers, dressing like sannyasis, acting like acaryas, dressing like brahmacaris or grhasthas, closing one s eyes, respecting particular types of books, rules and regulations in eating, and respecting the purity of particular times and places. The examples of alocyagata are attributing personalism or impersonalism on the Supreme Lord, installing deities, exhibiting the mood of an incarnation of the Lord, speculating on heaven and hell, and describing the future destination of the soul. The different forms of these spiritual activities create divisions of sectarianism.

 

Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people s spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another. When an asslike mentality becomes prominent within the kanistha-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes deity worship in order to establish the worshipable Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered asslike people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to asslike mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices according to one‘s qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both asslike and swanlike people are found amongst the kanistha-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in various practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike persons. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian."

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm

 

Certainly better to become a swan. Practically I don't post too often on these forums because they usually degrade into contentious arguments that benefit no one. But the suggestion on this thread by wordsmith that the presence of Srila Prabhupada's murti on the iskcon vyasasana's means he made a "contract" with iskcon never to leave it, and that his service remains identical to the seva he performed during his nara lila was a little much to digest. From what I have seen his Divine Grace's real presence hasn't been felt in iskcon for decades., and was to a great extent even ignored by many of his leading secretaries even during his physical presence as well. So I felt impelled to offer something in responce.

[theist]

Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

------

For me this is definitive. The final word on the subject of if someone can associate with Srila Prabhupada through his teachings. That question is settled. Anyone who teaches differently I choose to ignore. For me it is that simple.

 

Now it is only a question of stoking up the desire to associate with Krsna's devotee in a serious and meaningful way. That is the real work.

[Guest guest]

By the way Puru das.

Thank-you for creating the BVML library.

I use it frequently.

It is a great service as far as I am concerned and you should be highly commemorated.

 

But, your affinity for Narayana Maharaja is a mystery to me.

I gave him a fair listen and a chance to win my heart, but the magic just wasn't there.

I found him to be at odds with Srila Prabhupada in many ways, even though his propaganda denies that.

[theist]

 

Certainly better to become a swan. Practically I don't post too often on these forums because the usually degrade into contentious arguments that benefit no one.

 

Exactly. My point is there is so much noncontentious knowledge about Krsna that you have absorbed, why not share some of that with us and let's close at least our participation in the endless "tit for tat" and move on to be subjects that will bear some eternal fruit?

[theist]

 

By the way Puru das.

Thank-you for creating the BVML library.

I use it frequently.

It is a great service as far as I am concerned and you should be highly commemorated.

 

I second that! In fact I stopped by to use the Balarama Converter for my last post.

[Guest guest]

In ISKCON Srila Prabhupada always said to the devotees and even his most intimate servitors that if they do not read and study all his books daily that they will simply eat sleep and fall down.

So, this physical proximity of the acharya or the sadhu is not enough if one is not steeped in the books.

At least that is the legacy of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement.

The physical sanga was never acknowledged by Srila Prabhupada in a practical way as being very sufficient.

His practical example was that service and study was much more important and valuable that being in the physical proximity.

 

The physical proximity propaganda is just the same old hackneyed dribble that the caste goswamis and the professionsal gurus have been preachings for centuries.

It's all bogus manure really.

Srila Prabhupada NEVER preached that in a practical way.

 

In fact he would regularly send devotees away who were following him from temple to temple.

He told them that they should go back to the temple and do service and study his books.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this physical proximity myth over and over.

 

At the end of the Caitanya Caritamritam he said:

 

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore we must take advantage of the vani, not the physical presence. The Bhagavad-gita, for example, is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, the Bhagavad-gita continues.

 

So, according to the mentality of the devotee, all the different methods and processes have been supported to encourage all the devotees no matter what their preference in Krishna consciousness.

 

Some devotees are more dependent on a physical presence of the guru and some are more dependent upon his instructions and literatures.

All the different processes have been supported and encouraged so as to motivate all devotees according to their own tendencies.

[Puru_Das]

 

By the way Puru das.

Thank-you for creating the BVML library.

I use it frequently.

It is a great service as far as I am concerned and you should be highly commemorated..

You are most welcome. We have been consistantly getting between 200-300 hits daily for some time now. All credit for the site should go to Bhutabhavana prabhu, who does the actual work of uploading and web design.

 

 

But, your affinity for Narayana Maharaja is a mystery to me.

I gave him a fair listen and a chance to win my heart, but the magic just wasn't there. .

 

It is as much a mystery to me how anyone who aspires to practice suddha bhakti cannot appreciate the association of a suddha bhakta. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja said:

 

" For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point."

 

 

 

I found him to be at odds with Srila Prabhupada in many ways, even though his propaganda denies that.

 

I have never heard him say anything that I couild not find confirmed in Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures. You should keep in mind this observation about different acaryas by His Divine Grace:

 

 

“ Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was an ideal acarya. An acarya is an ideal teacher who knows the purpose of the revealed scriptures, behaves exactly according to their injunctions and teaches his students to adopt these principles also. As an ideal acarya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu devised ways to capture all kinds of atheists and materialists. Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends:

 

tasmat kenapy upayena

manah krsne nivesayet

sarve vidhi-nisedha syur

etayor eva kinkarah

 

An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu...”

“...It is the concern of the acarya to show mercy to the fallen souls. In this connection, desa-kala-patra (the place, the time and the object) should be taken into consideration...”

Purport Cc. Adi lila 7.37

HDGACBSP

 

and not judge by external differences.

ys

pda

[Guest guest]

Somewhere in Caitanya Caritamrita.

 

: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 12.212

praphulla-kamala jini' nayana-yugala

nīlamaṇi-darpaṇa-kānti gaṇḍa jhalamala

SYNONYMS

praphulla-kamala — blossoming lotus flower; jini' — conquering; nayana-yugala — two eyes; nīlamaṇi — sapphire; darpaṇa — mirror; kānti — luster; gaṇḍa — neck; jhalamala — bright.

TRANSLATION

The eyes of Lord Jagannātha conquered the beauty of blossoming lotus flowers, and His neck was as lustrous as a mirror made of sapphires.

PURPORT

Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu usually saw Lord Jagannātha from a distance, standing behind the column of Garuḍa. But because he had not seen Lord Jagannātha for fifteen days, Caitanya Mahāprabhu felt great separation from Him. In great eagerness, Caitanya Mahāprabhu crossed the meeting hall and entered the room where food was offered, just to see the face of Lord Jagannātha. In verse 210, this action is called maryādā-lańghana, a violation of the regulative principles. This indicates that one should not come very near a superior. Both the Lord's Deity form and the spiritual master should be seen from a distant place. This is called maryādā. Otherwise, as it is said, familiarity breeds contempt. Sometimes coming too near the Deity or the spiritual master degrades the neophyte devotee. Personal servants of the Deity and the spiritual master should therefore always be very careful, for negligence may overcome them in their duty.

Srila Prabhupada says in the purport that a neophyte devotee shoud only see the spiritual master and the deity from a distance. It has something to do with seeing faults and defects in the spiritual master and the deity.

 

So, really, neophyte devotees are NOT supposed to get very intimate with the spiritual master. If they do they only start to find fault.

 

Advanced disciples can take intimate association of the spiritual master and be able to see beyond these apparent defects.

 

However, the scripture advises that neophyte devotees should only be allowed a more distant view and connection to the spiritual master.

 

We saw for ourselves how some of the most intimate disciples of Srila Prabhupada eventually fell away and committed some very horrific offenses in ISKCON and to Srila Prabhupada.

 

This physical proximity thing can really backfire on a devotee if he is not on a very high platform.

 

That's why the books and tapes can be very effecftive. Becuase they allow us to get the essence without all the pitfalls of being in intimate physical contact with the spiritual master.

 

Many of Srila Prabhupada's most intimate disciples fell away, went crazy or just lost it. This is good evidence that the physical sanga propaganda is mostly myth being promoted by professional gurus and preachers.

[Puru_Das]

 

Srila Prabhupada said that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement...

 

As a matter of fact he NEVER said that. Bali Mardan read that to him from a chinese scroll. You want the details you can read this vnn article:

http://www.vnn.org/world/9802/09-1590/index.html

 

(I hope the edit makes it clear what sentence I am saying HDG never actually said).

 

 

The physical sanga was never acknowledged by Srila Prabhupada in a practical way as being very sufficient.

His practical example was that service and study was much more important and valuable that being in the physical proximity..

 

What part of this purport did you not take note of?

 

TEXT 18

TEXT

nasta-prayesv abhadresu

nityam bhagavata-sevaya

bhagavaty uttama-sloke

bhaktir bhavati naisthiki

SYNONYMS

nasta--destroyed; prayesu--almost to nil; abhadresu--all that is inauspicious; nityam--regularly; bhagavata--Srimad-Bhagavatam, or the pure devotee; sevaya--by serving; bhagavati--unto the Personality of Godhead; uttama--transcendental; sloke--prayers; bhaktih--loving service; bhavati--comes into being; naisthiki--irrevocable.

TRANSLATION

By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.

PURPORT

Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical.

The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on.

SB 1.2.18

HDGACBSP

 

What part of Cc. Antya 5.131 went passed your understanding?. What part of the purport to Cc. Antya 7.53 have you not accepted?

 

************************************************** *

 

 

The physical proximity propaganda is just the same old hackneyed dribble that the caste goswamis and the professionsal gurus have been preachings for centuries.

It's all bogus manure really.

Srila Prabhupada NEVER preached that in a practical way.

 

In fact he would regularly send devotees away who were following him from temple to temple.

He told them that they should go back to the temple and do service and study his books.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this physical proximity myth over and over..

 

A fly or a dog can be sitting on the vyasasana. The fly won't stay and if you throw a bone the dog will run and chase it. There is no doubt that being in physical proximity alone is not sufficient. But taking the association of sadhus, adau sraddha tatah sadhu sanga, and hearing from them is an essential part of practicing bhakti yoga Do you dare imply that the many statements in His Divine Grace's books about vapuh association of pure Vaisnava's are hackneyed dribble and bhogus manure? If we have to make a choice between Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's realization on this topic, and what we can clearly read in His Divine Grace's books over and over again,and what we heard him say time and again, or your opinion what do you think will tip the scale in one direction or the other?

 

 

At the end of the Caitanya Caritamritam he said:

 

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore we must take advantage of the vani, not the physical presence. The Bhagavad-gita, for example, is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, the Bhagavad-gita continues

 

 

So, according to the mentality of the devotee, all the different methods and processes have been supported to encourage all the devotees no matter what their preference in Krishna consciousness.

 

Some devotees are more dependent on a physical presence of the guru and some are more dependent upon his instructions and literatures.

All the different processes have been supported and encouraged so as to motivate all devotees according to their own tendencies.

 

Anyone sincerly trying to become Krsna Conscious does not reject the opportunity to associate with Mahabhagavata Vaisnavas. Srila Prabhupada writes in the Bg:

 

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya

 

tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

 

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

 

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

"In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Krsna consciousness, which is matured in bhava, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life." In the prema stage there is constant engagement in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. So, by the slow process of devotional service, under the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, one can attain the highest stage, being freed from all material attachment, from the fearfulness of one's individual spiritual personality, and from the frustrations resulting from void philosophy. Then one can ultimately attain to the abode of the Supreme Lord.

Bg. As It Is 4.10

HDGACBSP

 

If you take the trouble to research this sloka in the books and throughout His Divine Grace's lectures he discusses it in many places. In Nectar of Devotion he wrote:

 

 

 

<CENTER>Association with Pure Devotees</CENTER>

Although many different processes for developing love of Godhead have been explained so far, Srila Rupa Gosvami now gives us a general description of how one can best achieve such a high position. The beginning of ecstatic love of Godhead is basically faith. There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid. The influence of a pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, one gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Thus, by the mercy of the Lord, who is situated in everyone's heart, one gradually develops his faith in the descriptions of such authoritative scriptures. This is the first stage of association with pure devotees. In the second stage, after one becomes a little advanced and mature, he automatically offers to follow the principles of devotional service under the guidance of the pure devotee and accepts him as the spiritual master. In the next stage, under the guidance of the spiritual master, the devotee executes regulative devotional service, and as a result of such activities, he becomes freed from all unwanted occupations. When he is freed from unwanted occupations, his faith becomes steadily fixed, and he develops a transcendental taste for devotional service, then attachment, then ecstasies, and in the last stage there is pure love of Godhead. These are the different stages of the development of pure love."

 

****************************************

 

Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sanga. Sadhu-sanga means to associate with the devotees. Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sanga. Sadhu. Sadhu, this word, Sanskrit word, is meant for the devotees, the lover of Krsna. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita: sadhur eva sa mantavyah. Api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak, sadhur eva sa mantavyah. One who has unflinching faith in Krsna, one who is cent percent engaged to render service to Krsna, he is called sadhu. Sadhu does not mean a kind of dress or kind of beard. No. Sadhu means a devotee, perfect devotee of Krsna. That is a sadhu. Therefore it is recommended, sadhu-sanga. We have to associate with sadhu, means who have completely dedicated life for Krsna's service.

from a lecture given on

Bhagavad-gita 7.1

Sydney, February 16, 1973

 

Srimad Bhagavtam Class Hawaii, August 12, l974

 

740128SB.HAW

 

<CENTER>Lectures</CENTER>

Reporter: Because I take the word of my father, of my mother, that he is my father...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: ...I cannot prove it. Nobody can prove it that he is my father.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Therefore that is the beginning of knowledge. That is the beginning, adau sraddha. That is stated in the sastra: adau sraddha, faith. Then if you have got sraddha, then adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. Suppose if you are, if you are very much anxious, you have got faith to understand Krsna, then next step is to associate with persons who know Krsna. Just like you are doing some business, so you have to enter into some association, businessmen, to understand the business from them. Similarly, if you have faith in Krsna, then you have to understand Him through the association of devotees. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangau. Atha bhajana-kriya. Then as soon as you have... Just as these boys, they came to me. After association they wanted to be initiated: "Swami, please initiate." That is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah atha bhajana kriya. And if you are performing bhajana kriya nicely, then anartha-nivrttih syat, then all misgivings will go away.

Reporter: Anartha visya.

Prabhupada: Anartha-nivrttih syat. Then nobody will question. All questions will be anartha-nivrttih, all doubts gone. Then nistha, firm faith. Then firm faith, nistha. Then taste. Whenever there is Krsna topics, immediately you go. Tato nistha...

Reporter: Taste?

Prabhupada: Taste, rucih.

Reporter: Accha. Taste, rucih.

Prabhupada: Tato nistha tatah rucih athasakti , then attachment.

Reporter: Tatha?

Prabhupada: Asakti.

Reporter: Asakti.

Prabhupada: Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. That is Krsna says, mayi asakta. We have to increase our asakta, attachment, for Krsna by this process. Tathasakti tatah bhavah. Then you will see Krsna everywhere. That is krsna prema. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

there are too many references to this verse to list them all. You can go here and access them if you want to read all the hits from the bbt folio:

http://bvml.org/contemporary/appendix.htm#5

[Guest guest]

 

This indicates that one should not come very near a superior. Both the Lord's Deity form and the spiritual master should be seen from a distant place.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 12.212 purport

 

I didn't make this up.

It is the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

"All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure."

- Srila Prabhupada's purport, Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 25.278

 

Duh, Srila Prabhupada did say that.

He actually wrote it in his books.

 

This message applied to his intimate associates as much as any other devotee in ISKCON.

[Puru_Das]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 12.212 purport

 

I didn't make this up.

It is the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Look at the sentence in context. It is a caution not to commit Vaisnava or seva aparadha, not a statement meant to discourage sadhu-sanga or stop us from performing arcana seva (worship of the Deity).

 

TEXT 212

TEXT

praphulla-kamala jini' nayana-yugala

nilamani-darpana-kanti ganda jhalamala

SYNONYMS

praphulla-kamala--blossoming lotus flower; jini'--conquering; nayana-yugala--two eyes; nilamani--sapphire; darpana--mirror; kanti--luster; ganda--neck; jhalamala--bright.

TRANSLATION

The eyes of Lord Jagannatha conquered the beauty of blossoming lotus flowers, and His neck was as lustrous as a mirror made of sapphires.

PURPORT

Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu usually saw Lord Jagannatha from a distance, standing behind the column of Garuda. But because he had not seen Lord Jagannatha for fifteen days, Caitanya Mahaprabhu felt great separation from Him. In great anxiety, Caitanya Mahaprabhu crossed the meeting hall and entered the room where food was offered, just to see the face of Lord Jagannatha. In verse 210, this action is called maryada-langhana, a violation of the regulative principles. This indicates that one should not come very near a superior. Both the Lord's Deity form and the spiritual master should be seen from a distant place. This is called maryada. Otherwise, as it is said, familiarity breeds contempt. Sometimes coming too near the Deity or the spiritual master degrades the neophyte devotee. Personal servants of the Deity and the spiritual master should therefore always be very careful, for negligence may overcome them in their duty.

Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's eyes have been compared to thirsty bumblebees, and Sri Jagannatha's eyes have been compared to blossoming lotus flowers. The author has made these comparisons in order to describe Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu while the Lord was deeply absorbed in ecstatic love for Lord Jagannatha.

Cc. Madhya 12. 212

 

And it is a true enough fact that some of His Divine Grace's personal servant's left KC because they could not appreciate Srila Prabhupada's transcendental position and made such offenses. What this purport has to do with hearing the discourses of self realized souls is beyond me. What this purport has to do with sadhu sanga is also not clear. Spiritual life is likened to a razor's edge. Does that mean we make no effort?. We can get the greatest benefit from sadhu sanga, and if we misuse the opportunity and commit the mad elephant offense at the feet of Mahabhagavata Vaisnavas then the greatest harm can come to us, because such offenses can uproot our bhakti creeper. That is clear enough. So don't commit Vaisnava or seva aparadha.

[Guest guest]

 

Originally Posted by Guest

In ISKCON Srila Prabhupada always said to the devotees and even his most intimate servitors that if they do not read and study all his books daily that they will simply eat sleep and fall down.

 

Then Puru das said:

 

As a matter of fact he NEVER said that. Bali Mardan read that to him from a chinese scroll. You want the details you can read this vnn article:

 

 

Looks like Puru das needs to be reading the books of Srila Prabhupada instead of spending too much time listening to Narayana Maharaja preach about physical proximity as being the MOST important thing for a devotee?

[Guest guest]

Originally Posted by Guest

In ISKCON Srila Prabhupada always said to the devotees and even his most intimate servitors that if they do not read and study all his books daily that they will simply eat sleep and fall down.

So, this physical proximity of the acharya or the sadhu is not enough if one is not steeped in the books.

At least that is the legacy of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement...

 

Puru das wrote:

 

 

As a matter of fact he NEVER said that. Bali Mardan read that to him from a chinese scroll. You want the details you can read this vnn article:

 

Sorry prabhu, but Srila Prabhupada's words just proved you wrong.

[Puru_Das]

 

 

Duh, Srila Prabhupada did say that.

He actually wrote it in his books.

 

This message applied to his intimate associates as much as any other devotee in ISKCON.

 

Have I been quoting from His Divine Grace's books? Must be I read them, and go to them all the time for corroboration of anything I post.

No one ever said not to read them. His Divine Grace wrote in Cc. Antya 7.53 "One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books."

I am not making that up either. It is in the book.

 

In the vanih HDG says seek out the vapuh. Accept that or ignore it as you wish. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja knew from what he spoke. You don't have any faith in SGGM's vanih then as you wish. We all vote with our feet. I know who I trust and it is certainly not the opinions of other conditioned souls over the written and spoken words of our acaryas. Not when it comes to what is spiritual and what is not. DUh!!!

[Puru_Das]

 

Then Puru das said. . .

Looks like Puru das needs to be reading the books of Srila Prabhupada instead of spending too much time listening to Narayana Maharaja preach about physical proximity as being the MOST important thing for a devotee?

 

You left out the sentence that I was actually commenting on in one post and included it in the next one after that. No matter.

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada said that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement...

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->As a matter of fact Srila Prabhupada NEVER said

 

"that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement"

 

Bali Mardan read that to him from a chinese scroll. You want the details you can read this vnn article:

http://www.vnn.org/world/9802/09-1590/index.html

 

I adjusted the post so you won't be confused as to what His Divine Grace actually said, and what people claim he said.

 

Please spare me your sarcasm. Just who are you to advise anyone against hearing from a siksa guru? Try reading Adi lila 1.35 a little more carefully and we can all take His Divine Grace's advice instead of yours:

 

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 35

 

 

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana

tanhara carana age kariye vandana

 

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>mantra-guru--the initiating spiritual master; ara--and also; yata--as many (as there are); siksa-guru-gana--all the instructing spiritual masters; tanhara--of all of them; carana--unto the lotus feet; age--at first; kariye--I offer; vandana--respectful obeisances.

 

 

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters.

 

 

 

 

<CENTER>PURPORT

 

</CENTER>Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him.

 

 

If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

 

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

cc. Adi lila 1.35

HDGACBSP

[theist]

 

No one ever said not to read them. His Divine Grace wrote in Cc. Antya 7.53 "One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books."

I am not making that up either. It is in the book.

 

It may be in the books but the point is not in contention. One should read the pure devotees as one chants Hare Krsna, prays to the Lord for understanding, does some practical service, associates bodily with devotees, takes advanced siksa etc.

 

The simple intellectual approach to Prabhupada's books is not enough to change the heart. We have seen how intellectual understanding can aid one in in giving a nice class, while at the same time keeping many abominable desires in ones heart and habits in one's bodily life.

 

This type of approach is simply trying to use Divinity in the pursuit of one false ego.

 

Simple reading and memorizing Prabhupada's books are not what is up for discussion by Prabhupada's followers.

[theist]

 

Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

------

For me this is definitive. The final word on the subject of if someone can associate with Srila Prabhupada through his teachings. That question is settled. Anyone who teaches differently I choose to ignore. For me it is that simple.

 

Now it is only a question of stoking up the desire to associate with Krsna's devotee in a serious and meaningful way. That is the real work.

[Guest guest]

Puru das says:

 

As a matter of fact Srila Prabhupada NEVER said

 

"that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement"

 

Then what do you think he is saying here...?

 

"All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure."

 

- Srila Prabhupada's purport, Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 25.278

 

the words might not be literal, but the meaning is still the same.

 

this statement by Srila Prabhupada means the same thing;

 

"All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure."

[Guest guest]

Books are the basis:

Even if you have much intimate association with the acharya, big position and title, power in the society, etc. etc.

 

"All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure."

 

thus, the books are the basis.

[Guest guest]

Why not give NM another chance? Have you requested for seeing him privately in a small group?

 

Of course some have sukriti to associate with bonafide spritual masters and others don't... keep chantin' people.