Puru_Das Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 <TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 955892" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125></TD><TD class=alt1>Puru das says: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>As a matter of fact Srila Prabhupada NEVER said "that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></B> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Then what do you think he is saying here...? <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>"All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure." - Srila Prabhupada's purport, Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 25.278 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></B> He is saying what he said. No need to speculate as what we "think" he meant by it. "All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure." He is not saying ". . . that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" Interpret what he said as you will. I can see what he did say and what he did not say very clearly. We are not discussing what you think he means by what he wrote, but what he wrote. Thus nothing. That is your subjective conclusion. I can give numerous quotes from the books to prove that, thus "sadhu-sanga is the basis of the KC Movement." I can also give numerous quotes from the books that could lead us to say thus "chanting the hare Krsna maha mantra" is the basis of the KC Movement. I can give many quotes from the books to say thus "the teachings of Lord Caitanya are the basis of the KC Movement." We have to understand Srila Prabhupada's vanih in its totality, not just quote him out of context and to suite our own conceptions. "All the devotees connected with the Krsna consciousness movement must read all the books that have been translated (the Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and others); otherwise, after some time, they will simply eat, sleep and fall down from their position. Thus they will miss the opportunity to attain an eternal, blissful life of transcendental pleasure." Whether everyone will understand them and know how to apply them is another matter. That point is apparant since 1977. This thread is also proof positive that to really appreciate the depth of what is in His Divine Grace's books devotees are advised to study them in the association of and under the anugatya of a sad-guru. (see Cc. Antya 5.131). Without guidance,or siksa from a self realized soul, reading any shastra may not take you to the correct conclusion and you can possibly mis-understand the words of the acarya who wrote any particular translation or commentary. If you reject the principle of sadhu sanga and hearing from the lips of self realized souls and Bg. 4.34 then what have you understood from Srila Prabhupada's books? Not much. Here is another nice verse from the books concerning the importance of vapuh association: TEXT 122 TEXT sarva-desa-kala-dasaya janera kartavya guru-pase sei bhakti prastavya, srotavya SYNONYMS sarva--all; desa--countries; kala--times; dasaya--and in circumstances; janera--of every man; kartavya--the duty; guru-pase--in the care of a spiritual master; sei--that; bhakti--devotional service; prastavya--to be inquired; srotavya--and to be heard. TRANSLATION " 'It is therefore the duty of every man-in every country, in every circumstance and at all times-to approach the bona fide spiritual master, question him about devotional service and listen to him explain the process. Cc. Madhya lila Ch. 25.122 HDGACBSP Srila Prabhupada wrote in his purport to SB 1.2.18 ". . . Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life." So it is no surprise contention arises over what is the "best thing" or the "most important thing to do" to become Krsna conscious. Seems to me we should embrace all 64 angas of bhakti that Srila Rupa Gosvami gave us in his book Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and try to execute as many of the nine devotional processes, as outlined by Pradhlada Maharaja in the 7th Canto of SB and take whatever help we can find in learning how to execute those principles. the verse an purport are long but worth examination: sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam iti pumsarpita visnau bhaktis cen nava-laksana kriyeta bhagavaty addha tan manye 'dhitam uttamam SYNONYMS sri-prahradah uvaca--Prahlada Maharaja said; sravanam--hearing; kirtanam--chanting; visnoh--of Lord Visnu (not anyone else); smaranam--remembering; pada-sevanam--serving the feet; arcanam--offering worship (with sodasopacara, the sixteen kinds of paraphernalia); vandanam--offering prayers; dasyam--becoming the servant; sakhyam--becoming the best friend; atma-nivedanam--surrendering everything, whatever one has; iti--thus; pumsa arpita--offered by the devotee; visnau--unto Lord Visnu (not to anyone else); bhaktih--devotional service; cet--if; nava-laksana--possessing nine different processes; kriyeta--one should perform; bhagavati--unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; addha--directly or completely; tat--that; manye--I consider; adhitam--learning; uttamam--topmost. TRANSLATION Prahlada Maharaja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Visnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words)--these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krsna through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge. PURPORT When Prahlada Maharaja was asked by his father to say something from whatever he had learned, he considered that what he had learned from his spiritual master was the best of all teachings whereas what he had learned about diplomacy from his material teachers, Sanda and Amarka, was useless. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (Bhag. 11.2.42). This is the symptom of pure devotional service. A pure devotee is interested only in devotional service, not in material affairs. To execute devotional service, one should always engage in hearing and chanting about Krsna, or Lord Visnu. The process of temple worship is called arcana. How to perform arcana will be explained herein. One should have complete faith in the words of Krsna, who says that He is the great well-wishing friend of everyone (suhrdam sarva-bhutanam). A devotee considers Krsna the only friend. This is called sakhyam. Pumsarpita visnau. The word pumsa means "by all living entities." There are no distinctions permitting only a man or only a brahmana to offer devotional service to the Lord. Everyone can do so. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (9.32), striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim: although women, vaisyas and sudras are considered less intelligent, they also can become devotees and return home, back to Godhead. After performing sacrifices, sometimes a person engaged in fruitive activity customarily offers the results to Visnu. But here it is said, bhagavaty addha: one must directly offer everything to Visnu. This is called sannyasa (not merely nyasa). A tridandi-sannyasi carries three dandas, signifying kaya-mano-vakya--body, mind and words. All of these should be offered to Visnu, and then one can begin devotional service. Fruitive workers first perform some pious activities and then formally or officially offer the results to Visnu. The real devotee, however, first offers his surrender to Krsna with his body, mind and words and then uses his body, mind and words for the service of Krsna as Krsna desires. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura gives the following explanation in his Tathya. The word sravana refers to giving aural reception to the holy name and descriptions of the Lord's form, qualities, entourage and pastimes as explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and similar authorized scriptures. After aurally receiving such messages, one should memorize these vibrations and repeat them (kirtanam). Smaranam means trying to understand more and more about the Supreme Lord, and pada-sevanam means engaging oneself in serving the lotus feet of the Lord according to the time and circumstances. Arcanam means worshiping Lord Visnu as one does in the temple, and vandanam means offering respectful obeisances. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Vandanam means namaskuru--offering obeisances or offering prayers. Thinking oneself to be nitya-krsna-dasa, everlastingly a servant of Krsna, is called dasyam, and sakhyam means being a well-wisher of Krsna. Krsna wants everyone to surrender unto Him because everyone is constitutionally His servant. Therefore, as a sincere friend of Krsna, one should preach this philosophy, requesting everyone to surrender unto Krsna. Atma-nivedanam means offering Krsna everything, including one's body, mind, intelligence and whatever one may possess. One's sincere endeavor to perform these nine processes of devotional service is technically called bhakti. The word addha means "directly" One should not be like the karmis, who perform pious activities and then formally offer the results to Krsna. That is karma-kanda. One should not aspire for the results of his pious activities, but should dedicate oneself fully and then act piously. In other words, one should act for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu, not for the satisfaction of his own senses. That is the meaning of the word addha, "directly." anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam anukulyena krsnanu- silanam bhaktir uttama "One should render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Krsna favorably and without desire for material profit or gain through fruitive activities or philosophical speculation. That is called pure devotional service." One should simply satisfy Krsna, without being influenced by fruitive knowledge or fruitive activity. The Gopala-tapani Upanisad says that the word bhakti means engagement in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, not of anyone else. This Upanisad describes that bhakti is the offering of devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. To perform devotional service, one should be relieved of the bodily conception of life and aspirations to be happy through elevation to the higher planetary systems. In other words, work performed simply for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, without any desire for material benefits, is called bhakti. Bhakti is also called niskarma, or freedom from the results of fruitive activity. Bhakti and niskarma are on the same platform, although devotional service and fruitive activity appear almost the same. The nine different processes enunciated by Prahlada Maharaja, who learned them from Narada Muni, may not all be required for the execution of devotional service; if a devotee performs only one of these nine without deviation, he can attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes it is found that when one performs one of the processes, other processes are mixed with it. That is not improper for a devotee. When a devotee executes any one of the nine processes (nava-laksana), this is sufficient; the other eight processes are included. Now let us discuss these nine different processes. (1) Sravanam. Hearing of the holy name of the Lord (sravanam) is the beginning of devotional service. Although any one of the nine processes is sufficient, in chronological order the hearing of the holy name of the Lord is the beginning. Indeed, it is essential. As enunciated by Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, ceto-darpana-marjanam: by chanting the holy name of the Lord, one is cleansed of the material conception of life, which is due to the dirty modes of material nature. When the dirt is cleansed from the core of one's heart, one can realize the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead--isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. Thus by hearing the holy name of the Lord, one comes to the platform of understanding the personal form of the Lord. After realizing the Lord's form, one can realize the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and when one can understand His transcendental qualities one can understand the Lord's associates. In this way a devotee advances further and further toward complete understanding of the Lord as he awakens in realization of the Lord's holy name, transcendental form and qualities, His paraphernalia, and everything pertaining to Him. Therefore the chronological process is sravanam kirtanam visnoh. This same process of chronological understanding holds true in chanting and remembering. When the chanting of the holy name, form, qualities and paraphernalia is heard from the mouth of a pure devotee, his hearing and chanting are very pleasing. Srila Sanatana Gosvami has forbidden us to hear the chanting of an artificial devotee or nondevotee. Hearing from the text of Srimad-Bhagavatam is considered the most important process of hearing. Srimad-Bhagavatam is full of transcendental chanting of the holy name, and therefore the chanting and hearing of Srimad-Bhagavatam are transcendentally full of mellows. The transcendental holy name of the Lord may be heard and chanted accordingly to the attraction of the devotee. One may chant the holy name of Lord Krsna, or one may chant the holy name of Lord Rama or Nrsimhadeva (ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan). The Lord has innumerable forms and names, and devotees may meditate upon a particular form and chant the holy name according to his attraction. The best course is to hear of the holy name, form and so on from a pure devotee of the same standard as oneself. In other words, one who is attached to Krsna should chant and hear from other pure devotees who are also attached to Lord Krsna. The same principle applies for devotees attracted by Lord Rama, Lord Nrsimha and other forms of the Lord. Because Krsna is the ultimate form of the Lord (krsnas tu bhagavan svayam), it is best to hear about Lord Krsna's name, form and pastimes from a realized devotee who is particularly attracted by the form of Lord Krsna. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, great devotees like Sukadeva Gosvami have specifically described Lord Krsna's holy name, form and qualities. Unless one hears about the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord, one cannot clearly understand the other processes of devotional service. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that one chant the holy name of Krsna. param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. If one is fortunate enough to hear from the mouth of realized devotees, he is very easily successful on the path of devotional service. Therefore hearing of the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord is essential. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.5.11) there is this verse: tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavo yasmin prati-slokam abaddhavaty api namany anantasya yaso-'nkitani yat srnvanti gayanti grnanti sadhavah "Verses describing the name, form and qualities of Anantadeva, the unlimited Supreme Lord, are able to vanquish all the sinful reactions of the entire world. Therefore even if such verses are improperly composed, devotees hear them, describe them and accept them as bona fide and authorized." In this connection, Sridhara Svami has remarked that a pure devotee takes advantage of another pure devotee by trying to hear from him about the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord. If there is no such opportunity, he alone chants and hears the Lord's holy name. (2) Kirtanam. The hearing of the holy name has been described above. Now let us try to understand the chanting of the holy name, which is the second item in the consecutive order. It is recommended that such chanting be performed very loudly. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, Narada Muni says that without shame he began traveling all over the world, chanting the holy name of the Lord. Similarly, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised: trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih A devotee can very peacefully chant the holy name of the Lord by behaving more humbly than the grass, being tolerant like a tree and offering respects to everyone, without expecting honor from anyone else. Such qualifications make it easier to chant the holy name of the Lord. The process of transcendental chanting can be easily performed by anyone. Even if one is physically unfit, classified lower than others, devoid of material qualifications or not at all elevated in terms of pious activities, the chanting of the holy name is beneficial. An aristocratic birth, an advanced education, beautiful bodily features, wealth and similar results of pious activities are all unnecessary for advancement in spiritual life, for one can very easily advance simply by chanting the holy name. It is understood from the authoritative source of Vedic literature that especially in this age, Kali-yuga, people are generally short-living, extremely bad in their habits, and inclined to accept methods of devotional service that are not bona fide. Moreover, they are always disturbed by material conditions, and they are mostly unfortunate. Under the circumstances, the performance of other processes, such as yajna, dana, tapah and kriya--sacrifices, charity and so on--are not at all possible. Therefore it is recommended: harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha "In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way." Simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord, one advances perfectly in spiritual life. This is the best process for success in life. In other ages, the chanting of the holy name is equally powerful, but especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is most powerful. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet: simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna, one is liberated and returns home, back to Godhead. Therefore, even if one is able to perform other processes of devotional service, one must adopt the chanting of the holy name as the principal method of advancing in spiritual life. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah: those who are very sharp in their intelligence should adopt this process of chanting the holy names of the Lord. One should not, however, manufacture different types of chanting. One should adhere seriously to the chanting of the holy name as recommended in the scriptures: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. While chanting the holy name of the Lord, one should be careful to avoid ten offenses. From Sanat-kumara it is understood that even if a person is a severe offender in many ways, he is freed from offensive life if he takes shelter of the Lord's holy name. Indeed, even if a human being is no better than a two-legged animal, he will be liberated if he takes shelter of the holy name of the Lord. One should therefore be very careful not to commit offenses at the lotus feet of the Lord's holy name. The offenses are described as follows: (a) to blaspheme a devotee, especially a devotee engaged in broadcasting the glories of the holy name, (b) to consider the name of Lord Siva or any other demigod to be equally as powerful as the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (no one is equal to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nor is anyone superior to Him), © to disobey the instructions of the spiritual master, (d) to blaspheme the Vedic literatures and literatures compiled in pursuance of the Vedic literatures, (e) to comment that the glories of the holy name of the Lord are exaggerated, (f) to interpret the holy name in a deviant way, (g) to commit sinful activities on the strength of chanting the holy name, (h) to compare the chanting of the holy name to pious activities, (i) to instruct the glories of the holy name to a person who has no understanding of the chanting of the holy name, (j) not to awaken in transcendental attachment for the chanting of the holy name, even after hearing all these scriptural injunctions. There is no way to atone for any of these offenses. It is therefore recommended that an offender at the feet of the holy name continue to chant the holy name twenty-four hours a day. Constant chanting of the holy name will make one free of offenses, and then he will gradually be elevated to the transcendental platform on which he can chant the pure holy name and thus become a lover of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is recommended that even if one commits offenses, one should continue chanting the holy name. In other words, the chanting of the holy name makes one offenseless. In the book Nama-kaumudi it is recommended that if one is an offender at the lotus feet of a Vaisnava, he should submit to that Vaisnava and be excused; similarly, if one is an offender in chanting the holy name, he should submit to the holy name and thus be freed from his offenses. In this connection there is the following statement, spoken by Daksa to Lord Siva: "I did not know the glories of your personality, and therefore I committed an offense at your lotus feet in the open assembly. You are so kind, however, that you did not accept my offense. Instead, when I was falling down because of accusing you, you saved me by your merciful glance. You are most great. Kindly excuse me and be satisfied with your own exalted qualities." One should be very humble and meek to offer one's desires and chant prayers composed in glorification of the holy name, such as ayi mukta-kulair upasya manam and nivrtta-tarsair upagiyamanad. One should chant such prayers to become free from offenses at the lotus feet of the holy name. (3) Smaranam. After one regularly performs the processes of hearing and chanting and after the core of one's heart is cleansed, smaranam, remembering, is recommended. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.1.11) Sukadeva Gosvami tells King Pariksit: etan nirvidyamananam icchatam akuto-bhayam yoginam nrpa nirnitam harer namanukirtanam "O King, for great yogis who have completely renounced all material connections, for those who desire all material enjoyment and for those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord is recommended." According to different relationships with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are varieties of namanukirtanam, chanting of the holy name, and thus according to different relationships and mellows there are five kinds of remembering. These are as follows: (a) conducting research into the worship of a particular form of the Lord, (b) concentrating the mind on one subject and withdrawing the mind's activities of thinking, feeling and willing from all other subjects, © concentrating upon a particular form of the Lord (this is called meditation), (d) concentrating one's mind continuously on the form of the Lord (this is called dhruvanusmrti, or perfect meditation), and (e) awakening a likening for concentration upon a particular form (this is called samadhi, or trance). Mental concentration upon particular pastimes of the Lord in particular circumstances is also called remembrance. Therefore samadhi, trance, can be possible in five different ways in terms of one's relationship. Specifically, the trance of devotees on the stage of neutrality is called mental concentration. (4) pada-sevanam. According to one's taste and strength, hearing, chanting and remembrance may be followed by pada-sevanam. One obtains the perfection of remembering when one constantly thinks of the lotus feet of the Lord. Being intensely attached to thinking of the Lord's lotus feet is called pada-sevanam. When one is particularly adherent to the process of pada-sevanam, this process gradually includes other processes, such as seeing the form of the Lord, touching the form of the Lord, circumambulating the form or temple of the Lord, visiting such places as Jagannatha Puri, Dvaraka and Mathura to see the Lord's form, and bathing in the Ganges or Yamuna. Bathing in the Ganges and serving a pure Vaisnava are also known as tadiya-upasanam. This is also pada-sevanam. The word tadiya means "in relationship with the Lord." Service to the Vaisnava, Tulasi, Ganges and Yamuna are included in pada-sevanam. All these processes of pada-sevanam help one advance in spiritual life very quickly. (5) Arcanam. After pada-sevanam comes the process of arcanam, worship of the Deity. If one is interested in the process of arcanam, one must positively take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and learn the process from him. There are many books for arcana, especially Narada-pancaratra. In this age, the pancaratra system is particularly recommended for arcana, Deity worship. There are two systems of arcana--the bhagavata system and pancaratriki system. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is no recommendation of pancaratriki worship because in this Kali-yuga, even without Deity worship, everything can be perfectly performed simply through hearing, chanting, remembering and worship of the lotus feet of the Lord. Rupa Gosvami states: sri-visnoh sravane pariksid abhavad vaiyasakih kirtane prahladah smarane tad-anghri-bhajane laksmih prthuh pujane akruras tv abhivandane kapi-patir dasye 'tha sakhye 'rjunah sarvasvatma-nivedane balir abhut krsnaptir esam param "Pariksit Maharaja attained salvation simply by hearing, and Sukadeva Gosvami attained salvation simply by chanting. Prahlada Maharaja attained salvation by remembering the Lord. The goddess of fortune, Laksmidevi, attained perfection by worshiping the Lord's lotus feet. Prthu Maharaja attained salvation by worshiping the Deity of the Lord. Akrura attained salvation by offering prayers, Hanuman by rendering service, Arjuna by establishing friendship with the Lord, and Bali Maharaja by offering everything to the service of the Lord." All these great devotees served the Lord according to a particular process, but every one of them attained salvation and became eligible to return home, back to Godhead. This is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is therefore recommended that initiated devotees follow the principles of Narada-pancaratra by worshiping the Deity in the temple. Especially for householder devotees who are opulent in material possessions, the path of Deity worship is strongly recommended. An opulent householder devotee who does not engage his hard-earned money in the service of the Lord is called a miser. One should not engage paid brahmanas to worship the Deity. If one does not personally worship the Deity but engages paid servants instead, he is considered lazy, and his worship of the Deity is called artificial. An opulent householder can collect luxurious paraphernalia for Deity worship, and consequently for householder devotees the worship of the Deity is compulsory. In our Krsna consciousness movement there are brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis, but the Deity worship in the temple should be performed especially by the householders. The brahmacaris can go with the sannyasis to preach, and the vanaprasthas should prepare themselves for the next status of renounced life, sannyasa. Grhastha devotees, however, are generally engaged in material activities, and therefore if they do not take to Deity worship, their falling down is positively assured. Deity worship means following the rules and regulations precisely. That will keep one steady in devotional service. Generally householders have children, and then the wives of the householders should be engaged in caring for the children, just as women acting as teachers care for the children in a nursery school. Grhastha devotees must adopt the arcana-vidhi, or Deity worship according to the suitable arrangements and directions given by the spiritual master. Regarding those unable to take to the Deity worship in the temple, there is the following statement in the Agni Purana. Any householder devotee circumstantially unable to worship the Deity must at least see the Deity worship, and in this way he may achieve success also. The special purpose of Deity worship is to keep oneself always pure and clean. Grhastha devotees should be actual examples of cleanliness. Deity worship should be continued along with hearing and chanting. Therefore every mantra is preceded by the word namah. In all the mantras there are specific potencies, of which the grhastha devotees must take advantage. There are many mantras preceded by the word namah, but if one chants the holy name of the Lord, he receives the result of chanting namah many times. By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one can reach the platform of love of Godhead. One might ask, then what is the necessity of being initiated? The answer is that even though the chanting of the holy name is sufficient to enable one to progress in spiritual life to the standard of love of Godhead, one is nonetheless susceptible to contamination because of possessing a material body. Consequently, special stress is given to the arcana-vidhi. One should therefore regularly take advantage of both the bhagavata process and pancaratriki process. Deity worship has two divisions, namely pure and mixed with fruitive activities. For one who is steady, Deity worship is compulsory. Observing the various types of festivals, such as Sri Janmastami, Rama-navami and Nrsimha-caturdasi, is also included in the process of Deity worship. In other words, it is compulsory for householder devotees to observe these festivals. Now let us discuss the offenses in Deity worship. The following are offenses: (a) to enter the temple with shoes or being carried on a palanquin, (b) not to observe the prescribed festivals, © to avoid offering obeisances in front of the Deity, (d) to offer prayers in an unclean state, not having washed one's hands after eating, (e) to offer obeisances with one hand, (f) to circumambulate directly in front of the Deity, (g) to spread one's legs before the Deity, (h) to sit before the Deity while holding one's ankles with one's hands, (i) to lie down before the Deity, (j) to eat before the Deity, (k) to speak lies before the Deity, (l) to address someone loudly before the Deity, (m) to talk nonsense before the Deity, (n) to cry before the Deity, (o) to argue before the Deity, (p) to chastise someone before the Deity, (q) to show someone favor before the Deity, ® to use harsh words before the Deity, (s) to wear a woolen blanket before the Deity, (t) to blaspheme someone before the Deity, (u) to worship someone else before the Deity, (v) to use vulgar language before the Deity, (w) to pass air before the Deity, (x) to avoid very opulent worship of the Deity, even though one is able to perform it, (y) to eat something not offered to the Deity, (z) to avoid offering fresh fruits to the Deity according to the season, (aa) to offer food to the Deity which has already been used or from which has first been given to others (in other words, food should not be distributed to anyone else until it has been offered to the Deity), (bb) to sit with one's back toward the Deity, (cc) to offer obeisances to someone else in front of the Deity, (dd) not to chant proper prayers when offering obeisances to the spiritual master, (ee) to praise oneself before the Deity, and (ff) to blaspheme the demigods. In the worship of the Deity, these thirty-two offenses should be avoided. In the Varaha Purana the following offenses are mentioned: (a) to eat in the house of a rich man, (b) to enter the Deity's room in the dark, © to worship the Deity without following the regulative principles, (d) to enter the temple without vibrating any sound, (e) to collect food that has been seen by a dog, (f) to break silence while offering worship to the Deity, (g) to go to the toilet during the time of worshiping the Deity, (h) to offer incense without offering flowers, (i) to worship the Deity with forbidden flowers, (j) to begin worship without having washed one's teeth, (k) to begin worship after sex, (l) to touch a lamp, dead body or a woman during her menstrual period, or to put on red or bluish clothing, unwashed clothing, the clothing of others or soiled clothing. Other offenses are to worship the Deity after seeing a dead body, to pass air before the Deity, to show anger before the Deity, and to worship the Deity just after returning from a crematorium. After eating, one should not worship the Deity until one has digested his food, nor should one touch the Deity or engage in any Deity worship after eating safflower oil or hing. These are also offenses. In other places, the following offenses are listed: (a) to be against the scriptural injunctions of the Vedic literature or to disrespect within one's heart the Srimad-Bhagavatam while externally falsely accepting its principles, (b) to introduce differing sastras, © to chew pan and betel before the Deity, (d) to keep flowers for worship on the leaf of a castor oil plant, (e) to worship the Deity in the afternoon, (f) to sit on the altar or to sit on the floor to worship the Deity (without a seat), (g) to touch the Deity with the left hand while bathing the Deity, (h) to worship the Deity with a stale or used flower, (i) to spit while worshiping the Deity, (j) to advertise one's glory while worshiping the Deity, (k) to apply tilaka to one's forehead in a curved way, (l) to enter the temple without having washed one's feet, (m) to offer the Deity food cooked by an uninitiated person, (n) to worship the Deity and offer bhoga to the Deity within the vision of an uninitiated person or non-Vaisnava, (o) to offer worship to the Deity without worshiping Vaikuntha deities like Ganesa, (p) to worship the Deity while perspiring, (q) to refuse flowers offered to the Deity, ® to take a vow or oath in the holy name of the Lord. If one commits any of the above offenses, one must read at least one chapter of Bhagavad-gita. This is confirmed in the Skanda-Purana, Avanti-khanda. Similarly, there is another injunction, stating that one who reads the thousand names of Visnu can be released from all offenses. In the same Skanda-Purana, Reva-khanda, it is said that one who recites prayers to tulasi or sows a tulasi seed is also freed from all offenses. Similarly, one who worships the salagrama-sila can also be relieved of offenses. In the Brahma-nda Purana it is said that one who worships Lord Visnu, whose four hands bear a conchshell, disc, lotus flower and club, can be relieved from the above offenses. In the Adi-varaha Purana it is said that a worshiper who has committed offenses may fast for one day at the holy place known as Saukarava and then bathe in the Ganges. In the process of worshiping the Deity it is sometimes enjoined that one worship the Deity within the mind. In the padma purana, Uttara-khanda, it is said, "All persons can generally worship within the mind." The Gautamiya Tantra states, "For a sannyasi who has no home, worship of the Deity within the mind is recommended." In the Narada-pancaratra it is stated by Lord Narayana that worship of the Deity within the mind is called manasa-puja, One can become free from the four miseries by this method. Sometimes worship from the mind can be independently executed. According to the instruction of Avirhotra Muni, one of the nava-yogendras, as mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam, one may worship the Deity by chanting all the mantras. Eight kinds of Deities are mentioned in the sastra, and the mental Deity is one of them. In this regard, the following description is given in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana. In the city of Pratisthana-pura, long ago, there resided a brahmana who was poverty-stricken but innocent and not dissatisfied. One day he heard a discourse in an assembly of brahmanas concerning how to worship the Deity in the temple. In that meeting, he also heard that the Deity may be worshiped within the mind. After this incident, the brahmana, having bathed in the Godavari River, began mentally worshiping the Deity. He would wash the temple within his mind, and then in his imagination he would bring water from all the sacred rivers in golden and silver waterpots. He collected all kinds of valuable paraphernalia for worship, and he worshiped the Deity very gorgeously, beginning from bathing the Deity and ending with offering arati. Thus he felt great happiness. After many years had passed in this way, one day within his mind he cooked nice sweet rice with ghee to worship the Deity. He placed the sweet rice on a golden dish and offered it to Lord Krsna, but he felt that the sweet rice was very hot, and therefore he touched it with his finger. He immediately felt that his finger had been burned by the hot sweet rice, and thus he began to lament. While the brahmana was in pain, Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha began smiling, and the goddess of fortune inquired from the Lord why He was smiling. Lord Visnu then ordered His associates to bring the brahmana to Vaikuntha. Thus the brahmana attained the liberation of samipya, the facility of living near the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (6) Vandanam. Although prayers are a part of Deity worship, they may be considered separately like the other items, such as hearing and chanting, and therefore separate statements are given herewith. The Lord has unlimited transcendental qualities and opulences, and one who feels influenced by the Lord's qualities in various activities offers prayers to the Lord. In this way he becomes successful. In this connection, the following are some of the offenses to be avoided: (a) to offer obeisances on one hand, (b) to offer obeisances with one's body covered, © to show one's back to the Deity, (d) to offer obeisances on the left side of the Deity, (e) to offer obeisances very near the Deity. (7) Dasyam. There is the following statement in regard to assisting the Lord as a servant. After many, many thousands of births, when one comes to understand that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, one can deliver others from this universe. If one simply continues to think that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, even without performing any other process of devotional service, he can attain full success, for simply by this feeling one can perform all nine processes of devotional service. (8) Sakhyam. In regard to worshiping the Lord as a friend, the Agastya-samhita states that a devotee engaged in performing devotional service by sravanam and kirtanam sometimes wants to see the Lord personally, and for this purpose he resides in the temple. Elsewhere there is this statement: "O my Lord, Supreme Personality and eternal friend, although You are full of bliss and knowledge, You have become the friend of the residents of Vrndavana. How fortunate are these devotees!" In this statement the word "friend" is specifically used to indicate intense love. Friendship, therefore, is better than servitude. In the stage above dasya-rasa, the devotee accepts the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a friend. This is not at all astonishing, for when a devotee is pure in heart the opulence of his worship of the Deity diminishes as spontaneous love for the Personality of Godhead is manifested. In this regard, Sridhara Svami mentions Sridama Vipra, who expressed to himself his feelings of obligation, thinking, "Life after life, may I be connected with Krsna in this friendly attitude." (9) Atma-nivedanam. The word Atma-nivedanam refers to the stage at which one who has no motive other than to serve the Lord surrenders everything to the Lord and performs his activities only to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such a devotee is like a cow that is cared for by its master. When cared for by its master, a cow is not in anxiety over its maintenance. Such a cow is always devoted to its master, and it never acts independently, but only for the master's benefit. Some devotees, therefore, consider dedication of the body to the Lord to be atma-nivedanam, and as stated in the book known as Bhakti-viveka, sometimes dedication of the soul to the Lord is called atma-nivedanam. The best examples of atma-nivedanam are found in Bali Maharaja and Ambarisa Maharaja. Atma-nivedanam is also sometimes found in the behavior of Rukminidevi at Dvaraka. SB 7.5.23-24 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></B> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Whether one is inspired to associate with a particular devotee or not is a private affair. Stating that one doesn't find such and such a person inspiring because they see differences in their presentation compared to someone else that does inspire them is really offensive in my opinion and only serves to try to break the faith of others. Likewise stating that if a person doesn't want to associate with a particular devotee they must not have the proper sukriti and therefore they need to further purify themselves by chanting so that they will come to the same conclusion regarding said sadhu as the person promoting the sadhu is also offensive. Why not follow Sridhara Maharaja advice on this subject and allow for the free flow of faith? You have your faith and others have another faith - leave it at that. There is no need to denigrate the other persons faith because you don't share it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Whether one is inspired to associate with a particular devotee or not is a private affair. Stating that one doesn't find such and such a person inspiring because they see differences in their presentation compared to someone else that does inspire them is really offensive in my opinion and only serves to try to break the faith of others. Likewise stating that if a person doesn't want to associate with a particular devotee they must not have the proper sukriti and therefore they need to further purify themselves by chanting so that they will come to the same conclusion regarding said sadhu as the person promoting the sadhu is also offensive. Why not follow Sridhara Maharaja advice on this subject and allow for the free flow of faith? You have your faith and others have another faith - leave it at that. There is no need to denigrate the other persons faith because you don't share it. Ignorance is bliss I guess. We can just pretend that Narayan Maharaja hasn't criticised, offended, belittled and denigated Srila Prabhupada, but that would be self-deception. Despite his denial of having done such and still doing as such, we have enough documented statements from him that prove that to be a lie. It's hard to have faith in someone who talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Silence will be taken as agreement. MW June 11, 1974 Paris <HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --> Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable... Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets. Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing? Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you. ------ For me this is definitive. The final word on the subject of if someone can associate with Srila Prabhupada through his teachings. That question is settled. Anyone who teaches differently I choose to ignore. For me it is that simple. Now it is only a question of stoking up the desire to associate with Krsna's devotee in a serious and meaningful way. That is the real work. <!-- / message --><!-- sig --> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Puru das said: He is not saying ". . . that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" Srila Prabhupada said: My first concern is that my books shall be published and distributed profusely all over the world. Practically, BOOKS ARE THE BASIS of our movement. Without our books our preaching will have no effect.(to Mandali Badra 20 January, 1972) I think Puru das is not up to speed with what Srila Prabhupada taught his disciples. Get with the program prabhu!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 No one can legislate your faith - as I said that is your private affair - however saying disparaging things toward a vaishnava that others have faith in, regardless of your personal faith in the matter, is simply not appropriate. It isn't even good manners what to speak of proper vaishnava ettiquette. If any particlar devotee doesn't suit your taste or for some reason doesn't inspire you then you should respect that person from a distance. That does not include denigrating him or her via the internet or any other communication vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Gaura Hari Bol Theist, I'd like to know what you think the quote you have posted several times and feel is so definite means exactly. If you mean to say that anyone can simply snuggle up to Srila Prabhupada's books and gain the full darshana of Srila Prabhpuada and take full advantage of that darshana and at the same time ignore the instructions found therein about the need for associating with advanced devotees and hearing Hari katha from them then I certainly don't agree with that. Also, if you read the posts of Puru dasa where he quoted Gour Govinda Maharaja concerning reading books and the need to associate with advanced vaishnavas I think you can put your quote into the proper context. If you read the books you'll learn that you need to associate with advanced vaishnavas. If you associate with advanced vaishnavas you will learn that you need to read the books. They go hand in hand. Sridhara Maharaja characterized the scriptures as the passive agent of divinity and the pure devotee as the active agent. He explained that the devotee can ask questions and clarify points and correct misconceptions or misunderstandings. Reading a book without this help when one is on a very low level of spiritual attainment will definitely be of benefit to the reader, but it will be much more beneficial to for the spiritual aspirant to have a personal guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 No one can legislate your faith - as I said that is your private affair - however saying disparaging things toward a vaishnava that others have faith in, regardless of your personal faith in the matter, is simply not appropriate. It isn't even good manners what to speak of proper vaishnava ettiquette. If any particlar devotee doesn't suit your taste or for some reason doesn't inspire you then you should respect that person from a distance. That does not include denigrating him or her via the internet or any other communication vehicle. On the other hand, cramming Narayana Maharaja down the throats of the devotees of the Krishna consciousness movement of Srila Prabhupada is every bit as wrong and soliciting a reaction from those who do not have any faith in him. the Krishna consciousness movement is overwhelmingly a movement centered on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. trying to popularize Narayana Maharaja in a very conservatively Prabhupada society is just begging for adverse reactions. they should know that by know, but they insist to keep imposing him upon the Krishna consciousness movement, though most devotees don't want to hear about him. It seems as if they intentionally try to antagonize and instigate devotees with this relentless hype about Narayana Maharaja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SishirSaha Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Narayana Maharaja: “Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON… I am ISKCON. I'm not different from ISKCON. I am 'Bhaktivedanta' [srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. I'm senior to him in this regard… I'm Bhaktivedanta, and I’m also ISKCON. Don't think that I'm out of ISKCON.” Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 there are neophyte zealots in every group. Obviously you have free will and will do as you see fit. Regardless - it is best, at least in my opinion, to keep yourself free from envy and fault-finding of other vaishnavas. Party spirit doesn't help anyone. The international society for Krsna consciousness is for everyone - especially Lord Chaitanya's devotees. May I ask the poster of that last quote of Srila Narayana Maharaja what the purpose of posting it was? Unfortunately anyone who reads it in the context of this thread will draw their own conclusions - do you have a purpose? What conclusion do you draw and hope others will draw by posting it? Have you thought about the audience and context or do you think that not important? Again - vaishnavas should respect other vaishnavas. If for whatever reason they feel they don't want to personally associate with someone - that doesn't mean they should now begin to denigrate that person. Better to keep your distance and your tongue (or fingers in this case) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. I'm senior to him in this regard In fact, this seems to be a mistaken assertion. Srila Prabhupada was given the name Bhaktivedanta by his Godbrothers while he was still in household life, in 1939. This apparently made such an impression on Srila Keshava Maharaja that he decided to name all his tridandi sannyasi disciples Bhaktivedanta, which is how Narayana Maharaja got the name. He also gives his sannyasa disciples that same name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Gaura Hari Bol Theist, I'd like to know what you think the quote you have posted several times and feel is so definite means exactly. What part of "Yes" do you not understand prabhu? Prabhupada gives a very clear and direct answer to a very clear and direct question. If I try to say something it can only muddle the issue and detract from it. If you mean to say that anyone can simply snuggle up to Srila Prabhupada's books and gain the full darshana of Srila Prabhpuada and take full advantage of that darshana and at the same time ignore the instructions found therein about the need for associating with advanced devotees and hearing Hari katha from them then I certainly don't agree with that. C'mon Auarya-lila, why in the hell would you think that I am thinking that? Please review some of my posts in the last couple of pages for a better view of how I think. I have never advocated sucha position. Also, if you read the posts of Puru dasa where he quoted Gour Govinda Maharaja concerning reading books and the need to associate with advanced vaishnavas I think you can put your quote into the proper context. With all respects to Gour Govinda Maharaja and anyone else who may have a view differing from the above quote I posted, I am not interested in their differing opinions. If you read the books you'll learn that you need to associate with advanced vaishnavas. If you associate with advanced vaishnavas you will learn that you need to read the books. They go hand in hand. If you read the above quote yet again you will see that reading the commentary of the pure devotee IS association. That is the point that is being addressed here. First admit that and then bring in corrolary points. If you associate with advanced vaishnavas you will learn that you need to read the books. They go hand in hand. Thank you for the reminder. I have already heard that advice from advanced devotees and am taking that advice by reading Srila Prabhupada's books. What is your point exactly prabhu? It is true though that I am not interested in the siksa of anyone that can not recognize the LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his books and techings. In fact I go out of my way to avoid hearing from them and try to remain respectful from a distance. I would rather vibrations from some mundane TV show or something enter my consciousness. My choice. Everyone has to make their own. Sridhara Maharaja characterized the scriptures as the passive agent of divinity and the pure devotee as the active agent. He explained that the devotee can ask questions and clarify points and correct misconceptions or misunderstandings. Reading a book without this help when one is on a very low level of spiritual attainment will definitely be of benefit to the reader, but it will be much more beneficial to for the spiritual aspirant to have a personal guide. See, I view the commentary of Srila Prabhupada to be an active agent. In fact I also believe Krsna's words to be an active agent. But I believe I understand the angle that His Grace Sridhara Maharaja is speaking to. If I am correct that I understand him then I agree with what he said but it is not in opposition to the above posted quote. If you think it is then just come out and say you consider Srila Prabhupada wrong when he says to Paramahamsa. I have never ever once even suggested that one should avoid others more advanced on the path to understand Prabhupada's books. I fully realize that siksa can come from many different places as I believe the Lord occupies the heart of every living being. I also fully understand that the same Supersoul that leads one to Srila Prabhupada as his single most inspiration and teacher may also lead another to someone else. I don't spend my time trying push others to read only Prabhupada's books or to dump their guru and pledge allegiance to Srila Prabhupada. I try to avoid the personality cult mentality. Hare Krsna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru_Das Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Silence will be taken as agreement. <!-- / message --><!-- sig --> There is never any question of disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada's direct statements, as long as you can corroborate the source and it isn't something from someone's imagination. Puru das said: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>He is not saying ". . . that the books are the basis of the Krishna consciousness movement" </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Srila Prabhupada said: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>My first concern is that my books shall be published and distributed profusely all over the world. Practically, BOOKS ARE THE BASIS of our movement. Without our books our preaching will have no effect.(to Mandali Badra 20 January, 1972) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I think Puru das is not up to speed with what Srila Prabhupada taught his disciples. Get with the program prabhu!! Thanks for your evaluation. Please permit me to suggest that you are similarly not up to speed on what is actually written in the books. Regardless, we weren't talking about another statement by His Divine Grace from the letter to Mandali Badra from 1972, but the motto "Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force" that Bali Mardan read to His Divine Grace from a Chinese scroll. http://www.vnn.org/world/9802/09-1590/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru_Das Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Ignorance is bliss I guess.We can just pretend that Narayan Maharaja hasn't criticised, offended, belittled and denigated Srila Prabhupada, but that would be self-deception. Despite his denial of having done such and still doing as such, we have enough documented statements from him that prove that to be a lie. It's hard to have faith in someone who talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. We have heard such assertions before. There are many already written articles that more than adequately answer such useless observations. Uttarapaksa (Refutations) Archive http://bvml.org/ref/index.html Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja's deep appreciation and service attitude toward Srila Prabhupada are apparant to anyone with a clear enough head and unblocked ears to hear. None so blind as will not see and none so deaf as will not hear, and it is impossible to wake a man pretending to sleep. It is certainly much safer to accept His Divine Grace's evaluation of Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja than yours: from Srila Prabhupada’s letter to Srila Narayana Maharaja. (Return address c/o Gopal Agarwal from Butler, Penn.) Sept. 28, 1966: “I received your letter dated September 20, 1966, on time. Our relationship is certainly based on spontaneous love. That is why there is no chance of us forgetting one another. By the mercy of guru and Gauranga, may everything be auspicious for you. This is my constant prayer. From the first time I saw you I have been your constant well-wisher. At his first sight of me, Srila Prabhupada also saw me with such love. It was in my very first darshan of Srila Prabhupada that I learned how to love. It is his boundless mercy that he has engaged an unworthy person like me in fulfilling some of his desires. It is his causeless mercy to engage me in preaching the message of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha.”] or examine Srila Narayana Maharaja's remarks directly, –“Then he told me, ‘I want you to help take care of my disciples. I want them to be good and qualified devotees. If they come to you, please care for them.” Many of Srila Swami Maharaja’s disciples were nearby so he softly whispered in Bengali, “When I went to the West, I caught so many monkeys in my net. Really, they are very expert in quarrelling amongst themselves. They are still very young and untrained. So I request you that after my departure you will help them in every respect.” Considering the implications of this order from my siksa-guru, I hesitated. Then he grasped both of my hands in his own, looked deeply into my eyes and asked me to promise to help. Therefore I agreed, saying, ‘I promise that according to my ability and my bhaktisiddhanta-tattva (understanding of the conclusive statements of bhakti) I will always be ready to help them as you request.’” (from Srila Narayana Maharaja’s book, “My Siksa-guru and Priya-bandu http://bvml.org/SBNM/msgapb.htm If this thread is going to degrade into a name called aparadha fest then I would ask Jndas to close it down. Unfortunately when philosophical discussions that touch on guru-tattva, and suddha bhakti run long enough someone always sees fit to pollute the discussion with aparadha and contention. "In the Prti-sandarbha, Srila Jiva Gosvämi . . . says there are three types of discussions—väda, jalpa, and vitandä. In a väda discussion the motive of all concerned is to find out the truth. This is the ideal kind of discussion. It is for persons who are sober and impartial about the outcome; they simply want to know what is the truth of the matter. They are in the mode of goodness. Jalpa is a discussion wherein one is not interested in what is said by others, whether it has some truth or all of the truth, because one simply wants to be heard. Any other view or contribution is of no interest. This is the way for a person in the mode of passion. A vitandä discussion is in the mode of ignorance. In this version the truth is of no value. One simply wants to win at all costs." Introduction In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall by Kundali das Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Gosvami Maharaja has written: "THE ETYMOLOGICAL development of the word aparadha is radhat arthat aradhanat- apagatah, which means "to be distanced from worship." Offenses committed at the lotus feet of Vaishnavas, the Devotees, distance one from devotional service to the Supreme Lord. But in a higher sense it means to be removed from the service of Sri Radha. All divine service to Krishna is being conducted under her direction. To offend her servitors is to make one unfit for her divine service. The whole aim of Krishna consciousness is radha-dasyam, the divine service of Sri Radha, and offenses at the lotus feet of Vaishnavas make one unfit for such service" The Heart of Krsna (Vaishnava Aparadha & The Path of Spiritual Caution) http://bvml.org/SBPPG/hok-intr.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru_Das Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 With all respects to Gour Govinda Maharaja and anyone else who may have a view differing from the above quote I posted, I am not interested in their differing opinions. With all respects but none for his realizations about nama tattva, guru tattva , jiva tattva and sadhu sanga are anything but respect. To imply that SGGM said anything essentially different from what we heard from His Divine Grace and what is written in his books then you must have a very selective memory of what His Divine Grace actually wrote and spoke on the same topics. I've read assertions that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was preaching something "different." Such assertions cannot really be proven and are unsubstantial. They miss the essence of what His Divine Grace gave and miss the fact that SGGM was simply trying to help his godbrothers and disciples better understand Srila Prabhupada's vanih. Try reading: A Society Without Envy http://bvml.org/SGGM/aswe.htm Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing? Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you. ------ For me this is definitive. The final word on the subject of if someone can associate with Srila Prabhupada through his teachings. That question is settled. Anyone who teaches differently I choose to ignore. For me it is that simple. Now it is only a question of stoking up the desire to associate with Krsna's devotee in a serious and meaningful way. That is the real work.. the only problem with your interpretation of this remark to Paramahamsa is that because Srila Prabhupada said "You can associate with Krishna by reading Bhagavad-gita", you then conclude that reading the the spiritual master's commentary is identical to "associating" with him. To some extent, but it is really amazing how you can read so much into His Divine Grace's statement. Confusion about the qualitative oneness of vanih and vapuh seem to only be paralleled by misunderstanding of guru-tattva. Krsna is certainly non different from His name, fame form and pastimes. Do we then conclude that the spiritual master is also non different from his name, fame, form and nara lila? I don't believe that is our siddhanta. Srila Prabupada made another statement about his books to Madhudvisa. That conversation instructs us to take instructions from one "who knows the subject matter" : Conversation with Srila Prabhupada May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.” Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1 Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13 If you read the above quote yet again you will see that reading the commentary of the pure devotee IS association. That is the point that is being addressed here. First admit that and then bring in corrolary points. Are you saying that reading the books of any acarya is the identical experience of having his vapuh association and you find absolutely no difference in the experience of reading His Divine Grace's books, and what it was like to be in his physical presence and hear him directly? Then you are a highly advanced soul and have a very high adhikara and genuine deep realization. Then you should also have the same experience of Living Association of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Rupa Gosvami when you read their books ,or you are just kidding yourself. Hearing is more than in one ear hole and out the other. Genuine hearing means to take the words in our heart and live them and realize them. How much do we actually understand and realize the abc of Bg., that we are not the body,but are eternal servants of the Supreme Lord? When we open the books left by His Divine Grace anyone who sincerely reads the language of the book can sense His Divine Grace's ecstatic presence to some extent. I would suggest such realization is in direct proportion to our actual surrender to and love for His Divine Grace. No one can dispute such realization. However we are hard pressed to prove the point . Many of us are ready, willing and able to admit we lose nothing by taking assistance from Vaisnavas senior to ourselves to better appreciate the depth of His Divine Grace's written and spoken legacy. SGGM observed Gour Govind Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through their books. This is not a new thing. This is our vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, “Oh I have read their books; I have their asociation.” That won’t help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, “We need only to read books. There is no need of associating with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all.” Your motto is, “Seeing is believing.” You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul, your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krishna is there, can you see Him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision, and then you can see Krishna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there. It is not a fact that sadhus are not present. How is everything going on? How does the sun rise, the wind blow, and Indra give rain? All these things are going on. No sadhu? No Krishna? It’s nonsense, foolishness. We are so proud and puffed up. We are identifying ourself as the body, mind and false ego. We think we are very great. So we say, “Oh, there is no sadhu.” We are in the category of identification with the body and mind.We have not come to the beginning of the stage of purity. No! If Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj's evaluation of our capacity to understand shastra doesn't include you, and you can appreciate and realize the depth of His Divine Grace's written word on your own with no anugatya, then more power to you. Then if I pose some questions to you about the meaning of Rathayatra or the verses and purports in Nectar of Instruction you will be able to fully explain them to me. We can easily compare your critique on any one verse and purport to the lectures and articles on the same topics from other Vaisnavas and compare. I would also propose that by reading "Sri Chaitanya: His Life & Associates" by Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaj anyone can get a better appreciation of Srila Prabhupada's translation and commentary of the Cc. It is true though that I am not interested in the siksa of anyone that can not recognize the LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his books and techings. In fact I go out of my way to avoid hearing from them and try to remain respectful from a distance. I would rather vibrations from some mundane TV show or something enter my consciousness. My choice. Everyone has to make their own.. It is not clear what you mean by the "LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his books and teachings." If you believe that the books and teachings are identical to the acaryas' nara lila then that is a misconception. What do you actually mean? . The books cannot initiate disciples? The books do not necessarily explain themselves if you are confused be something you read in them? The books will not necessarily resolve apparant contradictions that conditioned souls observe in shastra?The books won't grab your ear and twist it to chastise you? It is clear that His Divine Grace clearly wrote that the spiritual master is non different from his instructions. Why misunderstand that remark to believe that the books are identical to the vapuh nara lila of the acarya? Such fanatacism doesn't make any sense to me at all. It's just soft rtvk manifesto that asserts, as the iskcon gbc does, that there is no need for any living siksa guru, because His Divine Grace wrote books and recorded lectures and we have his vanih. Your definition: Association of a sadhu ( sadhu-sanga)=reading the book written by that sadhu sounds like it comes from the same rtvk dictionary that re-defined henceforward. See, I view the commentary of Srila Prabhupada to be an active agent. In fact I also believe Krsna's words to be an active agent. But I believe I understand the angle that His Grace Sridhara Maharaja is speaking to. If I am correct that I understand him then I agree with what he said but it is not in opposition to the above posted quote. If you think it is then just come out and say you consider Srila Prabhupada wrong when he says to Paramahamsa. I have never ever once even suggested that one should avoid others more advanced on the path to understand Prabhupada's books. I fully realize that siksa can come from many different places as I believe the Lord occupies the heart of every living being. I also fully understand that the same Supersoul that leads one to Srila Prabhupada as his single most inspiration and teacher may also lead another to someone else. I don't spend my time trying push others to read only Prabhupada's books or to dump their guru and pledge allegiance to Srila Prabhupada. I try to avoid the personality cult mentality. Hare Krsna No one considers Srila Prabhupada "wrong." Here is a direct example from Audarya lila of how Srila Sridhar Maharaja's anugatya offers clarity and further explanation of His Divine Grace's remark "Sridhara Maharaja characterized the scriptures as the passive agent of divinity and the pure devotee as the active agent. He explained that the devotee can ask questions and clarify points and correct misconceptions or misunderstandings. Reading a book without this help when one is on a very low level of spiritual attainment will definitely be of benefit to the reader, but it will be much more beneficial to for the spiritual aspirant to have a personal guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimbo pani Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Originally Posted by SishirSaha (quoted from Urmila dasi's article on Chakra): Narayana Maharaja: "Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON...I am ISKCON. I'm not different from ISKCON. I am 'Bhaktivedanta' [srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. I'm senior to him in this regard… I'm Bhaktivedanta, and I’m also ISKCON. Don't think that I'm out of ISKCON." Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve) Reply by Syamarani dasi: COMPILATION 3 did not quote this accurately. By this inaccurate quote it wants to say that Srila Narayana Maharaja is trying to usurp Prabhupada's position as founder-acarya. But the truth is that Srila Maharaja is actually revealing his pride in being Prabhupada's humble servant. The compilation did not include the preceding sentences and explanation, and it also substituted an important clarification with a mere three dots. The following is the actual version of the statement as it was posted on the Internet. For the full reply by Syamarani dasi to this and other attempts to discredit Srila Maharaja: http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0206/ET08-7376.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 It is not clear what you mean by the "LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his books and teachings." I know it's not clear. That seems to be the problem. When you use one letter to try and nullify the quote I offered this just proves the point I made several posts back about the vast majority of us gravitating to that which seems to back our preconceived stance. You say the problem with the quote is...and then you referrence a letter to Madhuvisa that you believe is a contradiction. That is just more of the same. I didn't even read the letter as I am placing my faith in the one quote to Paramahamsa and it is enough to satisfy me. You say you have a problem with the quote so why can you not express the nature of that problem in your own words. What to speak of the fact that you just wrote previously that there is no thought to disagreeing with that quote as it was direct and from His Divine Grace. Puru prabhu, this does not appear to be consistent. If you really agreed then this conversation would be done. No need for volumns and volumns of quotes and debate on what they all mean. Word volumn is not illumination. The answer to Paramahamsa is self-effulgent. Yes we need a living guru and for many they find the LIVING PRESENCE of Guru right in Prabhupada's books and instructions. Hare Krsna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 What could be the motive of Narayan's followers who time and time again repeat this same argument? They must know how it will draw criticism of their spiritual master. And when it does they all feign surprise and righteous indignation. It's a farce. If you really wanted to avoid hearing the negative opinions some hold of your spiritual master then you would avoid those that criticize him. But you don't. Instead you bait them on. YOU then are the real offenders to your spiritual master. What showbottle nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 There is never any question of disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada's direct statements, as long as you can corroborate the source and it isn't something from someone's imagination. Which I did Puru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Srila Prabhupada repeatedly said over and over and over again that joining the Krishna consciousness movement fulfilled all the requirements for accepting a spiritual master and having siksha gurus, sadhu sanga etc. etc. Now, after Srila Prabhupada is gone the followers of Narayana Maharaja and some others are trying to replace Srila Prabhupada's intructions for joining the Krishna consciousness movement and they tell us that we need to leave the Krishna consciousness movement concept and accept one old sannyasi as a substitute for the Krishna consciousness movement. Any time that Srila Prabhupada discussed accepting a spiritual master or having sadhu sanga he always recommended joining the movement. He essentially replaced the old school concept of disorganized individual gurus with the modern structure of membership in the society of devotees. Srila Prabhupada constantly and repeatedly referred to his disciples as "members of ISKCON" or "members of the Krishna consciousness movement". So, actually the followers of Srila Prabhupada are really more interested in being members of Srila Prabhupada's movement than they are in accepting some old sadhu from the Gaudiya Math as a personal guru. If one is a member of the Krishna consciousness movement, then he is well in contact with a spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) and having plenty of sadhu sanga from other members of the Krishna consciousness movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 What get's me is that devotees like Puru das don't accept anything or anyone except Narayana Maharaja. They reject the ritvik system as bogus. The reject the GBC guru structure as bogus. For him, the only solution to the problems of ISKCON is that Narayana Maharaja should have become the next acharya. Well, I'm sorry, but when it comes to ISKCON either there should be a ritvik system or a GBC guru system. You can't just reject the two obvious alternatives available to ISKCON and promote Narayana Maharaja as the successor acharya. Puru's solution to the ISKCON problem is totally impracticle and unfeasible. ISKCON has to find a solution within. You can't reject the ritvik system and the ISKCON diksha guru system both and then claim to have a solution to the ISKCON dilemma with Narayana Maharaja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 If ISKCON is the great spiritual healer of the world, then the healer needs to heal itself. Narayana Maharaja and others on the outside of ISKCON cannot solve the problems. ISKCON can only be destroyed from within! ISKCON can only be fixed from within. One thing for sure is that the cycle of gurus coming and going and rising and then falling is no way for ISKCON to be going on and trying to teach the world about the message of Mahaprabhu. With the recent rash of expansion of the number of gurus in ISKCON, all ISKCON is doing is setting themselves up for more failures, more falldowns and more destruction to the concept of guru parampara and the Gaudiya acharyas. Narayana Maharaja is old himself. He is not going to be around forever. The solution to the ISKCON dilemma requires a long range, effective approach to maintaining the dignity and honor of the Gaudiya sampradaya. Madhyama gurus falling likes flies perpetually in ISKCON is just not a good working model to show the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Narayana Maharaja Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve):"Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON... I am ISKCON. I'm not different from ISKCON. I am 'Bhaktivedanta' [srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. I'm senior to him in this regard... I'm Bhaktivedanta, and I'm also ISKCON. Don't think that I'm out of ISKCON." Refutation by mother Jadurani ....The compilation quoted Srila Maharaja saying, "I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other." Perhaps, by doing this, the compilation is trying to say that Srila Maharaja is not bona fide because a self-effulgent acarya does not need to proclaim himself. But the compilation is wrong in its assumption. Surely Srila Maharaja is only separating himself from the hundreds of pretenders who masquerade as gurus, and there is no harm in that. This statement is not exclusive but inclusive. When Prabhupada was asked in 1969 in Boston what Jesus meant when he said I am the only son of my father. No one can come to Him but through me, Prabhupada replied, "He means, 'by me or anyone like me; in other words, by me or any bona fide representative of God.'" Similarly 'guru is one', as we have heard, and at the same time there is more than one bona fide guru. Srila Maharaja is not disparaging other bona fide teachers. He is simply saying that it is no small thing to perfectly represent the line of Gaudiya acaryas. Srila Maharaja's statement can also be seen in this way: His is the statement of a son who loves his father (Prabhupada) so much that he can say that "No one can love my father as much as I." This is not at all pride in himself, but in his beloved Srila Swami Maharaja, our Srila Prabhupada. We cannot imagine such love in our Western culture. I am 'Bhaktivedanta' [srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. Narayana Maharaja 28<SUP>th</SUP> April 1999, morning, Caracas: “Also you should know that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the founder of ISKCON. Swamiji, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja is one of the prominent acaryas in this line only. He is not founder; he's one of the prominent acaryas, who spread all these things [over] whole world, in a very short time. Though Prabhupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati himself could not come here, and he sent Swami Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja here. So Swamiji is one of the hands of Srila Prabhupada. It is not that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja is also father and forefather of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura. We should try to realize all these things. He was one hand, one hand, he was one hand, and that hand was so long that it traveled [over the] whole world, that long hand. But for this you should not minimize all other acaryas who have not come here, but more qualified they were. Like parama pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, Gosvami Maharaja, my Guru Maharaja, to whom this Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja used to make, used to honor like siksa-guru.” Jadurani Mataji claims Narayana mahraj loves srila prabhupada more than we can understand this may be so, and the followers of srila prabhupada shouldnt minimize other god brothers of prabhupada also, however for the disciples and grand disciples of prabhupada, prabhupada is their saviour and held in the highest esteem, for Narayan maharaj understandibly he may see his guru maharaj and others as more qualified. However this mood is not the mood of prabhupadas followers whom were saved by him even though seen as less qualifed to some. This subtle and sometimes gross minimisation of prabhupada is something prabhupada has himself warned us about on many occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 "Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that This man should be the next acarya.’ But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?’ They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection." Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 08-16-76, Bombay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 It is duty of the disciple before taking siksa that the siksa guru is in line with the diksa guru. Opinions will differ in what is regarded as different but its important to know what the divergences are. Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends: tasmat kenapy upayena manah krsne nivesayet sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu..." "...It is the concern of the acarya to show mercy to the fallen souls. In this connection, desa-kala-patra (the place, the time and the object) should be taken into consideration..." Cc. Adi lila 7.37-38 Prabhupada: "Then so siksa and diksa-guru... A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means... Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru/Acarya. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal." Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 17:1-3, 07-04-74, Honolulu So both things are there. We may favour oneside more than the other according to our conditioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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