Resolutions from the 2006 GBC meetings

[stonehearted]

 

I'm just trying to understand your logic, Bhakta Don and other like-minds.

 

Is this how things are:

All of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's disciples who lived with him were useless. Only Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is worthy of our respect.

In fact, this seems to be the party line among some of ISKCON's leadership. I heard a lecture just 1 1/2 years ago by a prominent ISKCON sannyasi/guru/GBC member in which he claimed that out of all of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's disciples, only Srila Prabhupada understood the essence of BSST's preaching, which this sannyasi claimed was the forming of an organized preaching institution. And because no one else among BSST's disciples understood this like Srila Prabhupada, they all became mayavadis and sahajiyas. It's a little hard for me to imagine Srila Prabhupada being glorified, or pleased, for that matter, by one of his disciples making such an assertion in public. And it's a little hard to imagine a more offensive mentality in the disguise of guru bhakti.

[stonehearted]

 

Now there are those from GM side that had/have been telling people that Prabhupada didn't give us everything we need - planting seeds of doubt about Prabhupada with too much esoterica topics and not centering on the basic points.

I've heard that some followers have made this claim, but I've never seen proof that the leaders of such Gaudiya Math groups have said this. I think there's a combination of misunderstanding and propaganda added to the mix here, although I agree that some do occasionally seem to preach publicly about things that Srila Prabhupada declined to discuss.

[Guest guest]

 

I've heard that some followers have made this claim, but I've never seen proof that the leaders of such Gaudiya Math groups have said this. I think there's a combination of misunderstanding and propaganda added to the mix here, although I agree that some do occasionally seem to preach publicly about things that Srila Prabhupada declined to discuss.

 

I've heard...

I've never seen....

I think.....

I agree....

 

But where're the quotes?

[stonehearted]

 

I've heard...

I've never seen....

I think.....

I agree....

 

But where're the quotes?

To the extent that I understand your post, that's exactly my point. Whatever GM-style groups you're talking about, let's see just where the leader says that Srila Prabhupada didn't give all we need. Some followers may or may not have said such things, but this is all generalizations, all rumors. And such rumors are the basis, it seems, for the kinds of assertions the ISKCON leader I mentioned made. If we can't show solid evidence for these claims, they're better left unmade.

 

BTW--do you have a name? I generally prefer not to respond to anonymous posts such as this.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I read this type of stuff [lectures etc] by a certain well known GM leader [on VNN and other sites] - as far back as 1999-2000...the same one giving initiations to people just met - the same one purportedly revealing the particular relationships [of his followers] with Krishna - this is not well known?

 

An example:

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] The brahma-gayatri, the first of the gayatri mantras, will dry your heart.

[Devotee:] What do you mean?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Ladies don't utter this first mantra.

[Devotee:] But our Srila Prabhupada gave it to us.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He did not wish that you continue it for all time. [note: How can he say this? where is his proof?] The acaryas in the Gaudiya-sampradaya, like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada – acaryas from the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu – say that only male persons can receive that mantra. All other gayatri-mantras can be uttered by ladies as well.

[Devotee:] But he gave it to ladies and men.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He had a special reason to do this at that time, but he did not want this to continue perpetually. [note: again how can he say this? where is his proof?] Because you believe he still wants you to chant that first mantra you should do so, but give more emphasis on the other mantras – like guru-gayatri and guru-mantra. [note: pray to me - is that what we're hearing here?]

[...]

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Your spiritual master has given some hints [note: that one is blatant knowing Prabhupada's literary preeminence] on how to meditate on them, so you will have to improve. He has given you a seed, [note: again knowing Prabhupada's literary preeminence - one has to wonder about that comment too] and if that seed sprouts then some very green leaves will appear, and later on flowers will begin to bloom. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has come here only to give the goal of these mantras...

 

[...]

“Even Madhusudana (Krsna), who is difficult to attain even for the best of yogis, feels Himself greatly blessed when He is touched by even the slightest playful breeze coming from the tip of Sri Radhika’s garment. I offer my obeisances to any direction in which I may find this daughter of Maharaja Vrsabhanhu.” (Sri Sri Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi, verse 2)

Have you heard this verse? Never? None of you have heard it? [note: see him almost lording it over them that "Prabhupada didn't tell you this one":rolleyes: i'm sure there've been many instances like this]

http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/sbnm_early_qa.shtml

 

That is an example [there is much more to this than that] of seeding doubts about Srila Prabhupada's presentation of the teachings of which he wanted everyone to adopt.

 

There are millions of people around the world who know and love Krishna based on the singular efforts of Srila Prabhuapda - yes - as far as the GM is concerned - Prabhupada had no real help - and where the books came in [he doesn't and didn't need their help] - the teachings he presents in his books are clear and without 'GM' support these books found their way into homes everywhere - that these books would be what sincere seekers would need is clear - his good translation and commentary are far better than any guru in giving one what we need - all these others should just spare us all that 'other stuff' - which is really mostly - sentimentality passing as insight.

 

If you can read you can see it for yourselves?

[Guest guest]

 

I've heard that some followers have made this claim, but I've never seen proof that the leaders of such Gaudiya Math groups have said this. I think there's a combination of misunderstanding and propaganda added to the mix here, although I agree that some do occasionally seem to preach publicly about things that Srila Prabhupada declined to discuss.

 

Here Narayan maharaja claims only he knows who prabhupada is, prabhupada's mood was not to go into such things.

 

Narayana Maharaja conversation, Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb.12, 2002 (morning):

“Therefore, in his service to Radhika, for rati-keli-siddhyai, a guru cannot serve in his male form. Srila Swami Maharaja and my Gurudeva are both serving there in their female forms as gopis. In that realm my Gurudeva is Vinoda Manjari, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura is Nayana Manjari, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa Manjari, and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is Rati Manjari. These manjaris can serve Radha-Krishna Conjugal.”

Sripad Dhrstadyumna dasa: “And our Srila Prabhupada?”

Srila Narayana Maharaja: “If you fully surrender, by body, mind, words and ego, then I may tell you. Otherwise, I will not. I know who he is, but you do not know. None of the ISKCON leaders know. Your Prabhupada has cheated them all, in the sense that he has not revealed himself to them at all.’’

 

Here he clearly implies that he has been asked to give further knowledge which prabhupada left out as we were'nt ready.

 

Narayana Maharaja December 3, 2001 India:

“You should try to realize what instructions Srila Swami Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada) has given. He has never given anything other than the instructions of Srila Rupa Gosvami. He always followed Rupa Gosvami, and therefore he is a rupanuga-vaisnava. He wanted to very clearly give the path of rupanuga (manjari-bhava), but he first had to cut down the jungles of mayavada and atheism. Because he wanted to give this path, he requested me to help them. He could have given it then, but they were not ready at that time.”

 

Here is a very clear difference Narayan Maharaj teaches different to prabhupada, if by this logic Narayana Maharja really believes real Guru is omnicient then he should be able to tell me what im doing since he's disciples consider him a mahabhagavat in the lila of krishna.

 

 

Narayana Maharaja Germany: Dec 12, 2001:

“Nowadays there are so many devotees who were personally following your Prabhupada, and by that they came in contact with this transcendental life. But now they are thinking that he was not sarvajna, not all-knowing or omniscient. What was he? Foolish? Ignorant? You know in His boyhood, that Krishna performed so many pastimes in which he appeared like a totally ignorant boy. But that does not mean He is ignorant or that He is not omniscient. And, if He is omniscient, why should His associates not be so? They must be. (Jadurani devi dasi brings up the point about child abuse in the gurukula. How could it have gone on if Prabhupada was omniscient, or all knowing?) Narayana Maharaja explains about Prabhupada being omniscient and child abuse occurring in ISKCON:

“If those in the gurukula are not offensive they will get some good impressions, samskaras, in the heart—by sadhu-sanga. Srila Swami Maharaja knowingly did something like this for the gain of the whole world—the whole universe. He has given krpa, mercy, to all. Prabhupada did not do anything improper. He was sarvajna (all knowing), and he wanted to do good for all. It was not the fault of Prabhupada; it was fault of their bad karma of past births and also this birth. We should realize this.

Although some are not realizing this, still he will help them. If those who attended gurukulas, who performed bad activities in past lives, had not come in contact with Srila Swami Maharaja—and instead of going to gurukula they had gone to any other school—the same karmic reaction would have come to them because of their past impressions. In fact, much, much worse things would have happened to them, and they would not have had the good opportunity to associate with a pure devotee—to receive prasada from his hand, to receive so much mercy from him, and to have the chance to take up devotional activities later on.”

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga Dasa, 3 July 1968:

“Yes, those twelve symptoms of the spiritual soul are correct, except for “all-knowing.” All-knowing it cannot be, but full of knowledge.”

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Mayapur morning walk, April 8, 1975: Jayadvaita: Because we see… For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is…

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then…

Jayadvaita: …an imperfection.

Prabhupada: That is not the… Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.

 

 

Narayana Maharaja Germany: Dec 12, 2001:

“Don’t follow the sahajiyas. We should be very careful to avoid trying to become 'goopis' or to follow their ideas”

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Conversation, Vrndavana, September 6, 1976:

“Don’t follow these so-called Radha-kunda babajis.”

 

Former prominent follower of Narayana Maharaja:

“The Vilap Kusumanjali lectures Narayana Maharaja gave during 1991-1993 were more or less based on the commentaries of Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji. Particularly some of the asta-kaliya-lilas related by the former were of his own realization. In terms of the Gaudiya Math, the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji. Nevertheless Narayana Maharaja plagiarized their works and let people believe he expressed his own realizations. And moreover, now he boycotts the very same persons’, Ananta das Baba's, works directly on his lectures. The translator and publisher of Ananta das Baba's works in English, Advaitadas, is a grand-disciple of Ananda Gopal Gosvamin. For all documents I have seen, Narayana Maharaja has not directly criticized Ananda Gopal Gosvamin, but he would certainly not be accepted by the orthodox followers of the Gaudiya Math.

 

“One of many examples:

Vilapa Kusumanjali verse 31 — Narayana Maharaja says on September 21, 1994: “In the meantime the anklet of one foot came out and went away. Tulasi noticed that the sound of Vamsi had also become less and Srimati Radhika stopped to dance and everything was upset. Tulasi ran towards the anklet, but in the meantime Krsna came and took it. He bound it on the feet of Srimati Radhika, and again the dancing and all things were done as before. Tulasi Manjari remembered this and began to tell to Radhika, “O You remember when Rasa was going on and this happened? Krsna took the anklet Himself and He tightened it on Your feet and again You began to dance.”

Ananda Gopala Gosvami said 40 years earlier: hathat nupura khose geche. Dasi nece nece ese noto hoiya nrtya parayana carane poraiya dilen....nupur khose geche dekhe kokhon-o syamasundara bansi gunje rekhe carana buke tule niye dui hate poran. “Suddenly an anklebell fell off; the maidservant danced and stooped down to put them back on Her dancing feet. Sometimes also Syamasundara, when seeing the anklebell falling off, tucks His flute in His sash, takes Svamini’s feet to His chest and replaces the bell.”

 

Again prabhupada lied to us, and here is an offer of something better.

 

Narayana Maharaja Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 12:

“We may think that we are engaged in so much devotional service and so much preaching work, but we must be careful. If we are not trying to do bhajana, if we are not trying to enter into the realm of real bhakti, then all of these activities are karmanga. They are actually material activities.”

 

Im sure there is a whole lot more, which explains the mood of some of the dicsiples.

 

 

Murlidhara dasa, disciple of Govinda Maharaja (Sridhar Maharaja’s disciple, Gaudiya Math) April 1999:

“For several years Narayana Maharaja heavily attacked Srila Sridhar Maharaja both verbally and in print. Before Srila Guru Maharaja’s departure from this world, when we were living with Srila Guru Maharaja at Nabadwip Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math in the 1980's the disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaja who knew the facts about the relationship between our Divine Master and Narayana Maharaja would never go to the Math of Narayana Maharaja. Ultimately, however, it is not just Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja’s attitude towards Srila Sridhar Maharaja but also Narayana Maharaja’s philosophy that disconnects him from Srila Sridhar Maharaja, (especially), Narayana Maharaja’s proposal that neophyte devotees should constantly meditate on Krishna’s pastimes with the gopis.”

 

Swami B.V. Tripurari, “Gadadhara Pandita: Harmonizing Differences”, July 22, 2000:

“The closest followers of every other sect in our Gaudiya Sarasvata sampradaya that are preaching internationally, all of whom I am acquainted with, feel that many of the followers of Narayana Maharaja are full of pride… We are happy for the success of Narayana Maharaja's group for Mahaprabhu. We wish them well. My dear Godbrother, Sripada B.G. Narasingha Maharaja, and I personally welcomed Sripada B.V. Narayana Maharaja on his first world tour with open arms. Why do his leading followers now insult persons like us, and, implicit in their fanatical preaching, gurus like Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, Puri Goswami, B.V. Tirtha Maharaja, etc.?”

[vijay]

I think my auto login doesnt work

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I think my auto login doesnt work

 

One thing you could add is the source of the quotes - in case someone balks at them?

[vijay]

The sources are on each of the quotes, I got these from 'Understanding Narayana Maharaja' by Urmilla devi dasi, it can be downloaded from here http://www.oldchakra.com/mainpages/people/narayanmhrj/index.htm.

 

A partial rebuttal of some of the quotes by Syamrani devi dasi(Jadurani devi dasi). http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0206/ET08-7376.html

 

A reply by Puru prabhu about those that post this sort of stuff are envious and neophyte not seeing that all acaryas have their own ways of preaching.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0204/ET23-7280.html

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

The sources are on each of the quotes, I got these from 'Understanding Narayana Maharaja' by Urmilla devi dasi, it can be downloaded from here http://www.oldchakra.com/mainpages/people/narayanmhrj/index.htm.

 

A partial rebuttal of some of the quotes by Syamrani devi dasi(Jadurani devi dasi). http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0206/ET08-7376.html

 

A reply by Puru prabhu about those that post this sort of stuff are envious and neophyte not seeing that all acaryas have their own ways of preaching.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0204/ET23-7280.html

 

 

Great there's some links for the readers to check it [the truth] out!

[Kulapavana]

 

Swami B.V. Tripurari, “Gadadhara Pandita: Harmonizing Differences”, July 22, 2000:

“Why do his leading followers now insult persons like us, and, implicit in their fanatical preaching, gurus like Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, Puri Goswami, B.V. Tirtha Maharaja, etc.?”

 

it is a common disease, known as the personality cult pretending to be the worship of Sri Guru.