are Jivas constantly falling?

[Guest guest]

Are Jivas constantly falling into our materal universe? or are there a set amount of embodied jivas in each yuga cycle (decreasing as they are liberated)? for example, are some jivas just incarnating in human bodies for the first time right now in our world system?

[Guest guest]

 

Are Jivas constantly falling into our materal universe? or are there a set amount of embodied jivas in each yuga cycle (decreasing as they are liberated)? for example, are some jivas just incarnating in human bodies for the first time right now in our world system?

 

Yes grasshopper!

This is your homework!

 

Refer to Srimad Bhagavatam on the process of creation and how Maha-Vishnu glances over prakriti and impregnates her with the living entities.

Then, study how Garbhodakasayi Vishnu goes about creating the universe, gives birth to Lord Brahma etc.

 

Report back to us with your findings!

 

See if you can find the answer in the books of Srila Prabhupada yourself.

[Guest guest]

No. Jivas are eternal, therefore they can't born:

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval".

It means that it's imposible to creat a conditioned soul in this material world, the living entity himself falls into this hell for one or other reason.

[Guest guest]

 

No. Jivas are eternal, therefore they can't born:

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval".

It means that it's imposible to creat a conditioned soul in this material world, the living entity himself falls into this hell for one or other reason.

 

I understand this, that the soul is never created. Actually, what I was asking is if Jivas are falling down into the material universes at all times? I mean, are there some Jivas hanging out in some inbetween world right now, between Vaikuntha and the material universe? and could they suddenly fall down at any time?

[Guest guest]

Yes. Impersonalists who refuses to be in material world

and also refuses to be in association with Krishna. They

must fall down becouse it's impossible to stay inactive.

So even if they reach impersonal effulgence of Krishna they

fall down.

But the fact is that every entity is etternally servant of

Krishna and if they are not in this condition, it means that

they have fallen from their original state. It is not that

in the beggining the living entity was thrown into material

world or impersonal effulgence. Actually there's no beggining.

Everyone is etternally servant of God and thats natural

etternal condition, and if one is in material world (hell) or

impersonal effulgence of Krishna he's fallen.

Actually it's impossible to be inactive like impersonalists think,

and even when they become so called inactive they must fall

down after some time. Becouse inactivity is sign of matter but

not the spirit which is always active.

[Guest guest]

 

But the fact is that every entity is etternally servant of

Krishna and if they are not in this condition, it means that

they have fallen from their original state. It is not that

in the beggining the living entity was thrown into material

world or impersonal effulgence. Actually there's no beggining.

Everyone is etternally servant of God and thats natural

etternal condition, and if one is in material world (hell) or

impersonal effulgence of Krishna he's fallen.

 

 

hmm.. the question about impersonalists reaching some semi-moksha state and then falling is another discussion altogether..

 

As to the original fall of Jivas, there is a debate on whether jivas fell from Vaikuntha or not. Some Gaudiyas teach we fell from a plane outside of Vaikuntha, inbetween the material universes and Vaikuntha. Others, like the Sri Vaishnavas, teach beginningless bondage - that the origin of our bondage in Samsara appears to be untraceable.

[Guest guest]

Yes. This point is actually very confident

 

There's no need to spend ages to find out how it actually was

with limited minds, becouse it doesn't give any change how

shall we act in presence to return home.

 

On the other hand, if we would trace out from where we fell,

we would not live here and immedatly go back, after

comparing our conditions, and in this way we would lose

the chance to enjoy matter and live in false ego.

 

Now about falling. It looks contradictory for us when Krishna

says that those who reach Vaikhunta planets, never comes

back to this material world. And on the same time it is said

that all jivas are etternally servants of Him and it's their

original position, but some of them have fallen into this

conditioned state.

The other thing is that illusion comes from association with

unholy objects, and such objects do not exsist in Vaikhunta,

therefore it's imposible to fall if there's no ting of unholy

things. That is also contradictory for us.

 

The another point is that Prabhupada in many places tells

that jiva is apt to fall, or in other words forget their

constituniol position and try to lord it over.

 

So the conclusion may be that jivas falls from Vaikhunta

planets, becouse if it wouldn't happen there would be no

need for material world. Everyone would reach Vaikuntha

and stay there forever in due course of time.

 

Another thing is that we can develop our qualities up to

78 percents max. And it's not 100 percent like Krishna have.

And thefore we are apt to fall. It is said that in spiritual

world there are ~75 percents of all jivas and in material 25.

So it synchornizes.

 

If we would fall from impersonal effulgence (nor spiritual nor

material planets), it would be contradictory for a statement

that we fall from our Original position, which is devotional

service in spiritual world.

 

Anyway all this is only speculation and without authority it is

useless. On the other hand there's no point to try very hard

to know it, becouse it doesn't change anything. Like

Prabhupada said: "what is the difference who you were in

your past lives? Why should you waste your time in such a

useless task? You can't change that, better change your

future."

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[Guest guest]

 

So the conclusion may be that jivas falls from Vaikhunta

planets, becouse if it wouldn't happen there would be no

need for material world.

 

this is a very serious statement that you make, because if the jivas are falling from Vaikuntha, what is to say once we reach Vaikuntha, we couldn't then fall again (Krsna forbid). Yet Krsna himself says that is not possible in the Gita. So, that's where this view comes from:

 

The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall From Goloka

purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20020216eve.shtml

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Prabhupada's teaching from Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

"Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha."

[Guest guest]

Ok. It would be nice to find clear conclusion by authorities where from all living entities apear in this material world.

 

 

That they (jivas) do not fall from spiritual planets is true becouse it is clearly comfirmed by Krishna. Thefore it is not subject matter , but the matter is to understand how jivas appear in this material hell.

 

As far as i could understand, Krishna is expanding unlimitedly by many personalities and those personalities expand themselves also unlimitedly and so on. Therefore this material world is always full and will be full of conditioned souls which expands unlimitedly. But if this is corect how i understand, then it should be so that jiva must appear or in other words manifest from uncousncious state and only from then begin its actions first in material world and stay there until he develops Krishna consciousness and go back home. It would mean that jiva is existing etternaly in unconsciousness state until it is manifested. That is so delluding, im full of ignorance! Can anyone please help me!

 

Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

 

 

As far as i could understand, Krishna is expanding unlimitedly by many personalities and those personalities expand themselves also unlimitedly and so on. Therefore this material world is always full and will be full of conditioned souls which expands unlimitedly. But if this is corect how i understand, then it should be so that jiva must appear or in other words manifest from uncousncious state and only from then begin its actions first in material world and stay there until he develops Krishna consciousness and go back home. It would mean that jiva is existing etternaly in unconsciousness state until it is manifested. That is so delluding, im full of ignorance! Can anyone please help me!

 

if the jiva had been eternally unconcious before falling, than it's true nature could not previously have been Sat-Chit-Ananda. So I cannot accept that the jiva was eternally unconcious previous to falling.

 

now unliberated jivas do sleep or remain inactive during pralayas, but that is something else. Before pralayas, they are in an active state, in some body on the Samsaric cycle. So they are not unconcious.

[Guest guest]

The origin of the soul

 

"Srila Prabhupada explains that the soul falls from the spiritual world to this material world and the supreme objective of the human life is to become Krishna conscious to be able to return "Back to Godhead" (this is also the title of the official ISKCON magazine). However Sarasvata Gaudiya Vaisnavas teach that the soul apparently has never been in the spiritual world. More information is available in the book 'Our Original Position' published by GBC Press and the article 'Where Do the Fallen Souls Fall From?"

 

 

It is the duty of all highly advanced devotees to discuss this and make one conclusion for the benefit everyone. If there's such conclusion, that everyone is supporting, please write a link.

[Guest guest]

Ok. I can simply cite what Prabhupada said. He indeed is the greatest devotee that can be and i believe that no one will reject what he says and wil not commit the greatest offense:

 

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

 

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

 

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

 

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

 

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’ The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

 

This is conclusion made by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

More citing:

 

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

 

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

 

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

 

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

 

Some pseudo devotees who are trying to misinterpret the words of Prabhupada says that actually all His letters is nothing but a lie to encourage a child or some other nonsence and when they hear when Prabhupada says that liberated person in Krishna consiousness never falls down they misinterpret it saying that He supports their argument, but we can see here that it is not so:

 

"Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

 

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

 

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know."

 

They simply take what is metaphor to be true and true to be metaphor and in such a way misleading not only themselves but many other people. When Krishna says that some entities are etternaly liberated and some eternally conditioned it means that they are liberated or conditioned for a very very long time but not etternaly in a real sense. That's what Prabhupada says, so how could we ,lowest of the lows, be so puffed up and misinterpret what He says?!

 

And the purpose of such bewilderment is:

 

"Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

 

yac-chaktayo vadatam vadinam vai

vivada-samvada-bhuvo bhavanti

kurvanti caisam muhur atma-moham

tasmai namo ’nanta-gunaya bhumne

 

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves. Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him."

 

"Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him."

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

While you pretend you are quoting Prabhupada, what you have written above was copied from Jayadvaita Swami's article, though for some reason you chose not to say where you got it from.

 

I will stick with Prabhupada's own words over Jayadvaita's: "Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha."

[Guest guest]

 

Ok. I can simply cite what Prabhupada said. He indeed is the greatest devotee that can be and i believe that no one will reject what he says and wil not commit the greatest offense:

 

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

 

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

 

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

 

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

 

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

 

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’ The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

 

This is conclusion made by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

More citing:

 

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

 

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

 

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

 

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

 

Some pseudo devotees who are trying to misinterpret the words of Prabhupada says that actually all His letters is nothing but a lie to encourage a child or some other nonsence and when they hear when Prabhupada says that liberated person in Krishna consiousness never falls down they misinterpret it saying that He supports their argument, but we can see here that it is not so:

 

"Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

 

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

 

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know."

 

They simply take what is metaphor to be true and true to be metaphor and in such a way misleading not only themselves but many other people. When Krishna says that some entities are etternaly liberated and some eternally conditioned it means that they are liberated or conditioned for a very very long time but not etternaly in a real sense. That's what Prabhupada says, so how could we ,lowest of the lows, be so puffed up and misinterpret what He says?!

 

And the purpose of such bewilderment is:

 

"Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

 

yac-chaktayo vadatam vadinam vai

vivada-samvada-bhuvo bhavanti

kurvanti caisam muhur atma-moham

tasmai namo ’nanta-gunaya bhumne

 

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves. Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him."

 

"Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him."

 

let me ask you this: do you believe that one can get moksha and enter the Vaikuntha Planets, and then once again fall down into Samsara? what a dreadful thought. That would contradict Lord Krishna's words: “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.”