if Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Vishnu

[madhavachari]

 

May I ask you a couple questions about Sri Vaishnavism? I am really curious to know more about this sect's teachings.

 

1. Do Sri Vaishnavas believe Vaikuntha is made of various sections (planets), for liberated beings of different stages? or is there just one Vaikuntha where all liberated jivas go?

 

2. Did jivas originally fall from Vaikuntha?

 

3. Will all jivas eventually reach Vaikuntha, even it takes millions of lifetimes?

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

1: No planets. One spiritual world - Vaikuntha.

 

2: No fall.

 

3: Theoretically, the jiva can stay forever in samsara, considering the free will. But I think that all jivas will go to the spiritual world, sooner or later, because the jiva can never feel true happiness here and this place is not its eternal home.

[Guest guest]

 

1: No planets. One spiritual world - Vaikuntha.

 

2: No fall.

 

3: Theoretically, the jiva can stay forever in samsara, considering the free will. But I think that all jivas will go to the spiritual world, sooner or later, because the jiva can never feel true happiness here and this place is not its eternal home.

 

Hi, madhvachari. I thank you very much for answering my questions.

 

Just a couple followup questions.

 

1. So this means there is no distinctions in Vaikuntha? everyone goes to the same eternal spiritual world. I admit I like this idea.

 

2. If there is no fall, how did jivas come to be in Samsara?

[madhavachari]

 

Hi, madhvachari. I thank you very much for answering my questions.

 

Just a couple followup questions.

 

1. So this means there is no distinctions in Vaikuntha? everyone goes to the same eternal spiritual world. I admit I like this idea.

 

2. If there is no fall, how did jivas come to be in Samsara?

 

1: Yes, it is really quite simple. But we are speaking about the "place" where the Lord of infinite, amazing and wonderful qualities is in the absolute center - Narayana - and where the very personification of devotion, Lakshmi, forever serves and adores and loves, assisted by all the souls who reached there and those who have never come down, the nitya-suris.

 

2: Everything has its origin in and is a part of and will ultimately go to the intelligent designer called God. All jivas have free will and get free choice to do whatever they please, but always experience the results of their actions. There are material coverings around the jivas that are under the influence of their karma, but there is no fall from Vaikuntha, as this is against the scriptures and common sense. If God is what all the sadhus, gurus and scriptures say, we could never turn away from Him! Therefore, it seems, we have not really seen God face to face but when we do so there is no risk that you will want anything else.

[Guest guest]

 

1: Yes, it is really quite simple. But we are speaking about the "place" where the Lord of infinite, amazing and wonderful qualities is in the absolute center - Narayana - and where the very personification of devotion, Lakshmi, forever serves and adores and loves, assisted by all the souls who reached there and those who have never come down, the nitya-suris.

 

2: Everything has its origin in and is a part of and will ultimately go to the intelligent designer called God. All jivas have free will and get free choice to do whatever they please, but always experience the results of their actions. There are material coverings around the jivas that are under the influence of their karma, but there is no fall from Vaikuntha, as this is against the scriptures and common sense. If God is what all the sadhus, gurus and scriptures say, we could never turn away from Him! Therefore, it seems, we have not really seen God face to face but when we do so there is no risk that you will want anything else.

 

Good point, I don't believe souls can fall from Vaikuntha.

 

so the nitya-suris are beings who have always been in Vaikuntha (or didn't fall)? but if there is no fall from Vaikuntha, how did they reach Vaikuntha and the other jivas haven't yet?

 

I believe I have read somewhere that jivas may have originally existed in a marginal plane, where they could see both Vaikuntha and the material world, and those who chose the material word are the jivas who have fallen into the Samsaric existence.

 

So is the Sri Vaishnava teaching? that we did not originally exist in Vaikuntha, but we originally existed in some marginal plane, and some of us chose to fall into the material universe, while the others chose to ascend to Vaikuntha, the eternal spiritual world. And these would be the Nitya Suris?

[madhavachari]

 

Good point, I don't believe souls can fall from Vaikuntha.

 

so the nitya-suris are beings who have always been in Vaikuntha (or didn't fall)? but if there is no fall from Vaikuntha, how did they reach Vaikuntha and the other jivas haven't yet?

 

I believe I have read somewhere that jivas may have originally existed in a marginal plane, where they could see both Vaikuntha and the material world, and those who chose the material word are the jivas who have fallen into the Samsaric existence.

 

So is the Sri Vaishnava teaching? that we did not originally exist in Vaikuntha, but we originally existed in some marginal plane, and some of us chose to fall into the material universe, while the others chose to ascend to Vaikuntha, the eternal spiritual world. And these would be the Nitya Suris?

 

These questions are not easily answered. God is so great that we can´t know everything about Him nor understand why some souls never even become entangled in karma but eternally remain servants of Sriman Narayana - nitya suris (based on statements in the Vedas). The souls who have become liberated are called jivan muktas.

The karma bound souls are called baddha jivas.

 

Since I am not a great pandit I can only tell you what I learnt so far.

We are all eternal and the universes of material nature (which also are eternal) are created in cycles. So there is no one beginning or a final end.

As far as I know there is no definite answer to the question you are asking. But if you find out, let me know.

[Guest guest]

according to Sri Vaishnavism, can worshipping Lakshmi as the Divine Mother, and surrendering to her will, lead one to her lotus feet in Vaikuntha (moksha)?

[Kamalasana Das]

Sri vaishnavism states that?

[Bhava dasa]

 

No, why are you asking?

The Brahma-samhita is a smrti-sastra, and yet you're disregarding it. Why?

[Guest guest]

 

The Brahma-samhita is a smrti-sastra, and yet you're disregarding it. Why?

 

Only Gaudiyas accept this text.

[Bhava dasa]

 

2: No fall.

 

So where do the jivas come from?

 

 

3: Theoretically, the jiva can stay forever in samsara, considering the free will. But I think that all jivas will go to the spiritual world, sooner or later, because the jiva can never feel true happiness here and this place is not its eternal home.

You use the terms, "theoretically, and "I think". So all this is simply your opinion? It's not coming from scripture?

[Guest guest]

 

So where do the jivas come from?

 

Traditional Gaudiyas teach that the jiva descends from a marginal plane, between the eternal spiritual world and the material universe.

 

I believe ISKCON teaches (or use to) that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha. This is of course a very troublesome teaching, since if the jiva fell from Vaikuntha, that could mean liberated ones could fall once again. So you see why traditional Gaudiyas do not accept this. .

 

See this article for this discussion:

vnn.org/world/WD0204/WD09-7259.html

[Bhava dasa]

 

As far as I know there is no definite answer to the question you are asking. But if you find out, let me know.

The answers to these questions are found in Gaudiya literature, but you don't accept them. So, you may never know.

[Bhava dasa]

 

Traditional Gaudiyas teach that the jiva descends from a marginal plane, between the eternal spiritual world and the material universe.

 

I believe ISKCON teaches (or use to) that the jiva fell from Vaikuntha. This is of course a very troublesome teaching, since if the jiva fell from Vaikuntha, that could mean liberated ones could fall once again. So you see why traditional Gaudiyas do not accept this. .

 

See this article for this discussion:

vnn.org/world/WD0204/WD09-7259.html

Can you identify yourself please?

[Bhava dasa]

 

Only Gaudiyas accept this text.

Identify yourself please.

[Bhava dasa]

I am not on a mission to disprove Gaudiya Vaishnavism...

It's not possible for you to disprove Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

[Bhava dasa]

 

Yes they do, but it is not Vedic.

It's very much Vedic, and is supported by various Vedic literatures.

[madhavachari]

See below...

[madhavachari]

 

I already have disproved several of the misconceptions of Gaudiyas. Such as the non-existence of Radha as a goddess accepted by followers of the Vedas. And that the verse which according to them talks about Sri Caitanya in the Bhagavata Purana, impossibly can refer to him.

And the alleged superiority of Krishna over Narayana. None of these things are supported by Madhvas or Sri Vaishnavas or any other persons who have Vedic knowledge.

 

The texts that Gaudiyas quote to "prove" that Caitanya is an avatara of Krishna actually mean something totally different. And the texts that speak clearly about him, such as Caitanya Upanishad, are false.

 

Here is an analysis of the Bhagavata verse by a Dvaita scholar:

 

>The context in this case clearly indicates that "varNaM" refers

> only to color.

> They also interpret with that meaning for the first 3 yugas.

>

> When it comes to the 4th one:

>

> "kR^ishhNavarNaM kalau kR^ishhNaM sAN^gopAN^gaM sapArshhadam.h

> yaj~naiH saN^kIrtanaprAyairyajanti hi sumedhasaH"

>

> as in other instances, only similar approach has to be taken.

>

> "In Kaliyuga, the black colored Krishna, with beautiful limbs and

> adorned

> with jewels and attended by gods is worshipped by the wise thru

> sacrifices

> and chanting of His names".

>

> This they make a pAThAntara

>

> "kR^ishhNavarNaM tvishA kR^ishhNaM sAN^gopAN^gAstrapArshhadam.h

> yaj~naiH saN^kIrtanaprAyairyajanti hi sumedhasaH"

>

> and further interpret "tvishA kR^ishhNaM" as "tvishA.akR^ishhNaM"

> and then translate akR^ishhNaM as "golden complexioned".

>

> There are too many problems with this approach

>

> 1. The word "kalau" (indicating in Kaliyuga) is made missing.

> 2. In an off-the-track way kR^ishhNavarNaM is translated as

> repeating the syllable Krishna

> 3. akR^ishhNam (not black) can be any color, but they make it

> golden color only.

> 4. They attribute to Chaitanya only, where as it can be attributed

> to any fair complexioned person, who chants Lord's name.

> 5. The whole meaning is a stretched, perverted meaning.

>

> In this regard, for additional info see,

>

> http://dvaita.info/pipermail/dvaita-...nfo/2005-June/

> 000865.html

>

> (user and passwd are dvaita).

>

> Regards,

> Kesava Rao

[Guest guest]

hi madhavachari,

 

do Sri Vaishnavas believe the jiva is unborn and eternal (that it has always existed), like the Gaudiyas? I believe they do, I just want you to confirm this question for me. Thanks.

[madhavachari]

 

So where do the jivas come from?

 

You use the terms, "theoretically, and "I think". So all this is simply your opinion? It's not coming from scripture?

 

You expect correct answers, based on the scriptures. But as I have already said, I am not a pandit and I don´t have the answers to everything and neither do you.

 

So, common sense tells me that theoretically the jivas can stay bound forever, since they always have a free choice. Do you follow?

 

On the other hand, who wants to stay in this world forever?

[madhavachari]

 

hi madhavachari,

 

do Sri Vaishnavas believe the jiva is unborn and eternal (that it has always existed), like the Gaudiyas? I believe they do, I just want you to confirm this question for me. Thanks.

 

Yes, for sure. You can google it up even.

[Yogkriya]

Dear Bhava dasa,

 

It is not as important to decide on universal rules of creation and prakriti as it is to recognize your current position and where to take it from here.

It is really imaterial to argue where jivas come from!! Where ever they come from!! Important is where they are NOW! In what state!! And what you can do to take yourself to the next stage of your soul's evolution.

 

I can go on hours and hours speaking on the source and reason of this universe's creation and so on, but to what avail?

 

We don't need to do a complete body surgery if we just have a headache! For this, only one tablet is enough. It is enought to know and follow your correct spiritual practice and leave the rest to Shri Vishnu/Hari (or Shiva if you are his devotee)

 

And you will be sastisfied enough!!

 

Hari OM!!

 

Yog Kriya

 

 

Yes, for sure. You can google it up even.

[Guest guest]

 

 

I can go on hours and hours speaking on the source and reason of this universe's creation and so on, but to what avail?

 

We don't need to do a complete body surgery if we just have a headache! For this, only one tablet is enough. It is enought to know and follow your correct spiritual practice and leave the rest to Shri Vishnu/Hari (or Shiva if you are his devotee)

 

And you will be sastisfied enough!!

 

Hari OM!!

 

Yog Kriya

 

Dear Yogkriya, you are a Saivite correct? Where do Saivites from your tradition state liberated jivas go? the Shivaloka? is it like Vaikuntha?

[Bhava dasa]

 

Originally Posted by madhavachari

I already have disproved several of the misconceptions of Gaudiyas.

With all due respect madhavachari, you haven't disproved a thing.

 

The Gaudiya Vaisnavas accept the conclusions of the great mahajanas, such as Brahma, Narada, and Siva, etc. It is their opinion that Mahaprabhu is Krsna. It is also their opinion that counters the other conclusions you have made regarding Krsna and Visnu, and Srimati Radharani and Laksmi-devi.

 

We have firm faith in their conclusions. You obviously do not. So be it. Why continue to the point of "argumentum ad baculum?" You are not making any progress against Gaudiya siddhanta, so why continue?

[Bhava dasa]

 

You expect correct answers, based on the scriptures. But as I have already said, I am not a pandit and I don´t have the answers to everything and neither do you.

 

If you continue to take the position of attacking Gaudiya siddhanta, then you should be prepared to provide sastric proof. And reversely if sastric proof, whether it be the srutis, smrtis, puranas, pancaratricis, tantrikas, etc. is provided to you, you should be humble enough to accept it. Let us discuss on those grounds. Then there may be some possibility of a meeting of the minds. Otherwise, the discussions will simply go around and around like a dog chasing its tail.