Without our books, our preaching will have no effect.

June 15, 2006

Dear Puru Das,

Dandavats.

All Glories to AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and true Vaisnavas everywhere.

Love and Affection are broadcast through the ethers and connect to whom those sentiments are intended, regardless of the physical obstacles between communicants, such as a computer.

Though I agree with you that generally, Cyberspace is filled with head-trippers who have bypassed most of their human emotional body, and seek only mental control of others.

something you just wrote struck me particularly.

"Thanks for your concern, but the only "problem" in responding to Vaisnava aparadha and apasiddhanta is that there is so much siddhanta that our acaryas have left explaining what Srila Rupa Gosvami has taught that sometimes it is hard to decide which to utilize."

Herein lies the Glory of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhpada who said.

Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acharya, immediate next acharya."

(Srila Prabhupada lecture December 8th, 1973)

As any truly empowered Acharya does, he took into account his audience, and encapsulated Srila Rupa Goswami's instructions for us fallen Westerners.

So personally I limit myself to his instructions on any matter and consider that he has brought me the essence of All previous acharyas in the Gaudiya Sampradaya which he represents. He knew we were not suited to read and examine the full body of direct writings of Srila Rupa Goswami and apply them to our lives. Or else we would have been born at his lotus feet!

So the Lord is kind enough to make an adjustment. So we must place our faith in the orders of the Acharya who is the Current link to the Sampradaya and we will not be left confused.

I hope this finds you well.

y.s.

Mark

Very nicely said.

Don't think that your words are wasted.

I for one appreciate them very much and your realizations are those of genuine soul who is sold out to Srila Prabhupada.

Pure nectar............... from the heart.....

sweet as any mango could ever be.....

June 15, 2006

Is your surrender to the non-physically-present guru real, or is it pretense? It's all too easy to cheat yourself by telling yourself you have surrendered, while in actuality you have simply pretended.

No doubt. But don't pretend to yourself just because you guru is here in vapuh form that you cannot fall victim to the same prentious self delusions.

Das Anu das · June 15, 2006

Thanks Mr Nobody,

Likewise and back atcha.

Funny I was always a little gullible and wishy washy, always knew I'd sell out. Thank Krsna for Srila Prabhupada's mercy. Made it easy on me. I coulda been a false guru easy I suppose. Gemini stellium in the 10th house and all that.

Hare Krsna

Puru_Das · June 15, 2006

Mark anyone who CAN understand Srila Prabhupada's books never rejects the opportunity to hear the SB from the person bhagavata, to associate with living sadhu, to take siksa from him, and certainly if he is uninitiated to accept harinama and diksa from such a personality.

Remarkable how you continue to adjust Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to fit your pre conception. You cannot explain away Srila Prabhupada's direct answer to Madhudvisa's direct question. Can someone become a devotee by reading your books. NO!

He said NO! but you say he meant "Yes, it is possible." amazing. One could also understand his answer to mean that any sad-guru who can explain the SB, Cc, Bg and other gaudiya shastras. anyone who "knows the subject matter." is the right person to explain them.

Your explanation that when His Divine Grace said No! he really meant YES it is possible ! holds as much water as a pot filled with holes. Sorry.

Bg. 4.34 and its purport are crystal clear.

". . . Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective."

But of course you read the books with a rtvk dictionary and believe approach means open and read the books, so until we accept the same definitions of the English language there is not much hope for communication.

Puru_Das · June 15, 2006

TEXT 117

TEXT

siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa

iha ha-ite krsne lage sudrdha manasa

SYNONYMS

siddhanta--conclusion; baliya--considering; citte--in the mind; na kara--do not be; alasa--lazy; iha--this; ha-ite--from; krsne--in Lord Krsna; lage--becomes fixed; su-drdha--very firm; manasa--the mind.

TRANSLATION

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna.

PURPORT

There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gita, misunderstand Krsna because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary, historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Krsna. If because of laziness one does not come to know Krsna conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Krsna through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Sri Krsna from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Sri Krsna. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one's own benefit as well as the benefit of one's audience.

When Brahma described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a maha-bhagavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 22.65) we learn:

sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra

'uttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara

"A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence." Srila Rupa Gosvami, in his Upadesamrta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities.

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaisnavas and who therefore imitate the previous acaryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir asru-pulakayoh sator api yad dhrdayam na vikriyeta tad asma-saram iti kanisthadhikarinam eva asru-pulakadi-mattve 'pi asma-sara-hrdayataya nindaisa. "Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned." The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions.

Cc. Adi 1.117

TEXT 53

TEXT

bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani'

bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani

SYNONYMS

bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words.

TRANSLATION

Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service.

PURPORT

Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

Cc. Antya lila 7.53

June 15, 2006

Dear Puru Das,

Please accept my obeisances.

I thank you for helping to clarify my understanding with even more confidence in my Spiritual Masters direct instructions as they are.

The actual difference between us is that I read that statement through the eyes of love of my savior Srila Prabhupada, the Self Effulgent Acharya who broke from the pack of mixed devotees who were unable to directly fulfill Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's desires completely, and fell prey to exactly every criticism which Srila Prabhupada lovingly levied at them.

He was specially empowered by the Lord as a Shakta-avesha Avatara. No small thing my friend.

I in no way have ever miinimised, as you claim, Srila Prabhupada's request to take association of a bona fide sadhu if one finds one. You can't prove I did.

I am one who DOES UNDERSTAND, because of the blessing of my "English" education and my small but real devotion, what this Shakta-avesha avatar and Pure Acharya had to and continues to say through his vani. Due to this sharp intellect and natural intelligence I do not need anyone but himself to tell me what he means.

He was the first one to give instructions to the ENTIRE WESTERN WORLD. To suggest that since he is dead that they cannot be understood directly as they are is patently insane and a great offense to all he has accomplished.

Of course if someone CANNOT for some reason understand, they may take shelter of some one who does! That is what he said. For anyone to imply that the only person who does is one of his Godbrothers from India is laughable. Ha Ha Ha. What an offense to Srila Prabhupada's memory. What a failure that would make him. No one got it. Now they must turn to his godbrothers to understand. Godbrothers who say things that are directly in contradiction to things he said. Using the same language. I am not blind.

So for the benefit of anyone reading this who may still have some small amount of faith in Srila Prabhupada's teachings and that they might get his association directly from his Books, tapes, videos and lectures, and then pick and choose carefully those other devotees who they associate with, making sure they are mature, kind, and not fanatically telling them they will not become a devotee unless they associate with "So and So", I will explain that conversation used to goad you into such faithless acts against your better judgement, one more time.

Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”

Imagine sitting around a circle. imagine this happening in real life. You are there. People are putting questions before the master teacher.

Madhudvisa doubts whether it is possible to BECOME A DEVOTEE without having personal association.

Remember, there are 3 classes of devotees. To become a devotee can be accomplished in FACT by simply becoming a neophyte. Accepting the basic instructions that are the same for everyone. Chant Hare Krsna. Follow the 4 regs. And try to hear the science of Bhakti yoga, which was painstakingly and completely laid out As it is in Srila Prabhupada's books , and commented on by that same Pure Acharya to make it easily understandable to the Western English speaking people.

Just vowing to oneself to do these things, and doing it, without claiming to be more than you are, just trying your best, YOU ARE AT LEAST A NEOPHYTE DEVOTEE. WELCOME TO BHAKTI YOGA.

Back to the conversation. Madhudvisa has a doubt that one can become a devotee without having personal association with Srila Prabhupada. What does he mean by personal association? He asks if reading his books is good enough as substitute, so we can tell Personal association in his mind is to be with Srila Prabhupada physically. And there are many quotes where Srila Prabhupada comments that the most important way to associate is through vibration, not just physical presence.

--- “So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. “(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

--- “Paramahamsa: My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad-gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?” (Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

--- “So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.” (General lectures, 69/01/13)

--- “These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.” (Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74)

--- “Narayana: So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or speak with you...

Srila Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his words, vani.” (Room conversation, 21/7/75)

--- “Krsna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of place by the principle of relay monitoring.” (Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

So Srila Prabhupada needs to answer the doubts of Madhudvisa. Now it should be already clear by everything I just wrote, and the quotes above that of course one can at least become a neophyte without having PHYSICAL personal association. Srila Prabhupada initiated hundreds of devotees he never met personally. So unless he is about to contradict his own example, which some people are APPARENTLY claiming he does, we read with our eyes of devotion. Put ourselves in the situation.

Madhudvisa has a doubt otherwise he wouldn't ask. Is it possible to become a devotee without your personal association, JUST by reading your books.

The answer is "NO". As Puru das points out. Not JUST by reading the books. Because after reading the books, the basic instructions found must be followed. All the basic instructions to become a neophyte devotee are in there.

The answer continues, "it is NOT that you have to associate with the author." A complete statement which answers part of the doubt. Having Srila Prabhupada's physical association is not part of the equation.

The answer continues, "But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him." A complete statement. Since English is not Srila Prabhupada's first language, he inverts the phrase which describes the last word "him", to the front of the sentence. Which does not change the essence of what he is saying, yet, as sometimes occurs, people have a hard time understanding what Srila Prabhupada says because the essence of life is already lost on them, and they are used to being mechanically spoon fed bits and pieces of scientific knowledge in properly grammatically structured, easy to understand statements.

But someone who is capable, and I claim most of us are, can see that "But one who knows" could not be the subject of the sentence and thus referring to the person who DOESN'T KNOW and doesn't understand.

So changing this answer to "If you cannot understand, you have to take a lesson from him, from one who knows." does well to clarify the essence.

So this is clear as it stands. What to do IF you cannot understand.

The answer continues. "Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain."

Self explanatory now that we understand what we do.

And Madhudvisa has yet another question about this.

Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”

So we are talking about someone who doesn't understand. He is wondering if besides what Srila Prabhupada just advised in that situation, to seek out someone who DOES understand, would the purports serve as explanation.

Of course this was pretty much the same question he asked in the beginning. It is in the purport wherein lies the specific instructions of the Acharya to the aspiring Bhaktas. If they are not understood, that is bad. They need to find someone who does. So Srila Prabhupada REITERATES

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain."

NO NO, ANYONE WHO KNOWS will be able to explain.

So if you don't understand, find someone, anyone who knows.

If you do understand, and become a neophyte devotee through Srila Prabhupada's association through understanding the instructions he has given in his books, and following them, and begin associating with other nice devotees on that basis, good for you. It will be easier and easier then to distinguish for yourself, WHO is a Bona Fide Sadhu that you might begin to associate with to become MORE ADVANCED as a devotee.

There are many instructions in Srila Prabhupada's books which give the clear symptoms you are to look for to make such a determination about another. This is done for a good reason. Because there are THOUSANDS of people who are NOT pure Sadhus walking the earth who claim they are, and the have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people DUPED into believing otherwise. And they will try to convince you of the same, because MISERY LOVES COMPANY.

So start small, be humble, and be careful to guard the tender sprout of your devotional creeper that popped up from the Seed that Srila Prabhpada planted in your heart.

Hare Krsna.

y.s.

Mark

Puru_Das · June 15, 2006

Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard .

that means that anyone who reads the book of Bhaktivinoda and minimizes the person of Bhaktivinoda does not understand the position of Bhaktivinoda and has missed the whole meaning of the book.

The same is true with Srila Prabhupada.

anyone who reads his books, yet tries to turn him into a dead guru has missed the whole meaning of why he published the books.

Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard .

For example, SB is the written record of two discussions. The recitation by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami to Maharaha Pariksit, and the recitation by Suta Gosvami to the sages of Naimisharanya. Some of Srila Prabhupada's books are the translations of those discussions from sanksrit to English with explanations (purports based on the commentaries of various other Gaudiya Acaryas). We should not minimize the importance of such recitations past or from present living acaryas, person Bhagavatas.

The "function" of the devotees also means the preaching of any living sad-guru who is a person Bhagavata and currently speaking the same message as his predecessor acaryas. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavti Thakura was speaking the same message delivered by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was speaking the same message delivered by SBSST and other living acarayas are similarly speaking the same message as HDGACBSP.

"What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures.Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard . . .

Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings. . . The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakur Bhaktivinode"

SBSST

The same is true for Srila Prabhupada, anyone who reads his books and does not understand what disciplic succession means, and believes that there is no current sad guru to hear from, associate with and take initiation from has also missed the point of why he published books. None of our acaryas write books to take the place of living sadhus, but rather to encourage devotees to actively seek them out.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said:

"The line of guru-parampara is existing up to today withoit any break and will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, "There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future," is an atheistic opinion."

"Finally, Sri Srila Prabhupada gave his blessings openly to all present as well as to those who were not present and advised them all to perform devotional service to the Supreme Lord and the service of pure devotees, specially by the method of propagation of his divine literatures.

Our most worshipable spiritual master Sri Srila Prabhupada has bestowed his affectionate blessings not only to his disciples, but to his grand-disciples and all those who will in the future come to this line of disciplic succession. There is no cause for loss of hope or fear, for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's line will never cease. This is the assurance of Sri Srila Prabhupada, the world teacher. He is eternally present among us. He is my Lord birth after birth, he is my only source of strength and those following in his footsteps should take his merciful instructions on their heads by mutually cooperating with each other, with Jagat Guru Sri Srila Prabhupada as the center, and try to fulfill his desires in serving the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. All perfection will be attained on pleasing Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada."

Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/pai.htm

June 15, 2006

Puru Das writes.

"Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard "

This means that if we take a meaning from Srila Prabhupada's writings that belittles the function of the original communicant (The Supreme Personality of Godhead in the form of his Pure Devotee Acharya) contradicts its own claim to be heard.

In other words don't speculate and concoct a meaning. Listen to what your Acharya said and do not belittle his function as the one who is supposed to help you understand what all the previous Acharya's were trying to say.

"Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acharya, immediate next acharya."

(Srila Prabhupada lecture December 8th, 1973)

So I can comment on the Direct quotes made by Srila Prabhupada's spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati because Srila Prabhupada has explained it to me, and anything Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu said will never contradict what Srila Prabhupada said when glorifying the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

HOWEVER certain instructions Srila Prabhupada gives to his disciples on how to go about their sadhana and create and maintain a Spiritually based institution WILL and DO differ, because he is responding as a liberated Acharya to a unique time place and circumstance, while maintaining the essence of what his Acharya communicated.

Puru das quotes SSBST

"Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings"

And how do we secure Srila Prabhuapada's guiding grace in order to understand his message. We secure his grace by internally accepting him as spiritual master, obeying his basic instructions, chant and follow the 4 regs and associate with him PERSONALLY through his vani. This cleanses the dust from our hearts.

Empiric study of writings is when we read to memorize the scripture for our own use without acting on what we read. I will now present the portion that Puru Das left out from his cherry picked quote by Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu which followed directly after "....empiric study of his writings" in the book "Thakura Bhaktivinode By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura"

..."empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words."

So we see here that Bhaktisiddhanta believes that the INSTRUCTIONS that were LUCIDLY CONVEYED BY HIS WORDS, if not acted upon, will not allow one to receive the benefit of reading.

REMEMBER we are talking about someone simply entering the first stage of being a devotee, a neophyte. A person NOT PREPARED TO ACT up to the instructions will not become a neophyte devotee no matter how many pure sadhus are standing over their shoulder.

How many people had YEARS of direct Vapuh association of Srila Prabhupada who memorized much of his words but never internally accepted it as instructions to follow, but memorized it all so they could have power over the unsuspecting?

PLEASE!!!

By now any reasonable person will get the drift. And I am certainly not going to convince Puru Das as he doesn't even look at the small point I am trying to make, and instead claims I am trying to keep people away from advanced association. Then when I say that it is not so, and you can't prove it, do I even hear an "I apologize" or any indication of his awareness.

None. Just a bunch of quotes going right past the issue.

And he talks about a lack of Love in cyberspace. Forget about love. How about we start with humility, common courtesy and respect?

So I will end here by remarking on the other statements he placed in bold type, and obvious indication that he though somehow they would prove that I know not of what I speak, and I will show that they actually support what I am saying. And then I will say no more on this issue until he will retreat from where he has put words in my mouth, and attacked straw men, and engage me like a peer without this condescension.

Puru Das said.

Finally, Sri Srila Prabhupada gave his blessings openly to all present as well as to those who were not present and advised them all to perform devotional service to the Supreme Lord and the service of pure devotees, specially by the method of propagation of his divine literatures.

So what does Srila Prabhupada not only consider to be performing devotional service to Both the Supreme Lord AND Pure devotees, but is ESPECIALLY advised or in other words a very good and effective type of service?

Pass out his Books.

Just doing that is serving a Pure Devotee and the Supreme Lord.

Simple for the Simple.

IMPOSSIBLE to understand by the CROOKED. Thus they should seek out someone who can help them to understand. If that is really what they want.

Hare Krsna

The same is true for Srila Prabhupada, anyone who reads his books and does not understand what disciplic succession means, and believes that there is no current sad guru to hear from, associate with and take initiation from has also missed the point of why he published books. None of our acaryas write books to take the place of living sadhus, but rather to encourage devotees to actively seek them out.

I never said that I believe there is no current sad guru to hear from.

Puru_Das · June 15, 2006

Dear Puru Das,

Please accept my obeisances.

I thank you for helping to clarify my understanding with even more confidence in my Spiritual Masters direct instructions as they are.

The actual difference between us is that I read that statement through the eyes of love of my savior Srila Prabhupada, the Self Effulgent Acharya who broke from the pack of mixed devotees who were unable to directly fulfill Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's desires completely, and fell prey to exactly every criticism which Srila Prabhupada lovingly levied at them.

He was specially empowered by the Lord as a Shakta-avesha Avatara. No small thing my friend.

We are not really friends, but thanks for the thought. Mark, your appreciation for Srila Prabhupada's causeless mercy, and empowered genius is duly noted and certainly shared by myself. One actual difference between us is that I don't see how it glorifies Srila Prabhupada to denegrate other disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. That His Divine Grace made a unique contribution to the whole world by transplanting KC outside of India and spreading it everywhere else on the planet I also appreciate and understand. Many of his real god brothers also understood his exalted seva to SBSST. They gave him the title Bhaktivedanta when he was still a householder, and Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja was one of the first to explain that HDG was a shakta-avesa avatara of Lord Nityananda's mercy. I was told that Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja told him before he gave him sannyasa, "If you do not accept 3rd intitiation then the world will not be saved." However, it is a typical symptom of Prabhupada fanatacism to make distinctions amongst Vaisnavas and to falsely imply that HDG was the only worthy disciple of SBSST who did pure service to His divine lotus feet. And please forgive me if you think this observation is putting words in your mouth as you did not actually say directly any such thing. I did say imply. It is simply a reaction to the tone of your post.

". . . Among Vaisnavas there may be some difference of opinion due to everyone's personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna consciousness must go on. We can see that under the instructions of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja began preaching the Krsna consciousness movement in an organized way within the past hundred years. The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja are all Godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his own capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. As far as we are concerned, we have already started the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and many thousands of Europeans and Americans have joined this movement. Indeed, it is spreading like wildfire. The cult of Krsna consciousness, based on the nine principles of devotional service (sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam. arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam), will never be stopped. It will go on without distinction of caste, creed, color or country. No one can check it.

SB4.28.31

Purport

. In the beginning, during the presence of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, all the disciples worked in agreement; but just after his disappearance, they disagreed. One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but another group created their own concoction about executing his desires. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya, and they split into two factions over who the next acarya would be. . .

Cc. Adi lila 12.8

Purport

We know that some of SBSSTs disciple deviated and rejected SBSST altogether. Same thing happened when Nitai and others rejected Srila Prabhupada. His Divine Grace certainly had differences of opinion with some of his godbrothers about how SBSST's mission was managed after their founder-acarya departed. We also know that there was one group of Godbrothers "One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura" that he associated with after SBSST's maha-samadhi, and that he eventually lived with prior to moving to his rooms at the Radha Damodar Temple, after he accepted sannyasa initiation in Mathura at the Kesavji Guadiya Matha, from his godbrother Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja.

You can read what His Divine Grace thought about his sannyasa guru directly here:

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD><CENTER>Lecture in Honor of Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja

Seattle: 21 October 1968</CENTER>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Anyone who wants more information on His Divine Grace's pre America history can read:

My Siksa Guru and Priya Bandhu

[This is a collection of recollections and reflections about His Divine Grace

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada from one of his earliest siksa

followers and friends, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. These descriptive accounts of his association with Srila Prabhupada span a long period of time, since they first met in 1947.]

and

Our Affectionate Guardians

Unabridged unpublished version

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/ashrama/links/affectionate-guardians-fs.html

Srila Narahari Sakara Thakura (the 40th branch of the Caitanya tree) has also left us some very nice instruction on how to positively see all Vaisnavas in his book Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita :

I in no way have ever miinimised, as you claim, Srila Prabhupada's request to take association of a bona fide sadhu if one finds one. You can't prove I did.

If you don't mind my asking then, who have you heard from since 1977? What current association do you accept?

Regardless, our only goal in this discussion should be to prove how wonderful Vaisnava association is, and to understand the benefit of following His Divine Grace's directions in Cc. Anty lila 5.131 and SB 1.2.18. to study the book Bhagavata in the association of the person Bhagavata. Tit for tat argument is a waste of everyone's time and energy.

I am one who DOES UNDERSTAND, because of the blessing of my "English" education and my small but real devotion, what this Shakta-avesha avatar and Pure Acharya had to and continues to say through his vani. Due to this sharp intellect and natural intelligence I do not need anyone but himself to tell me what he means. . . .

And here is another actual difference between us. I believe that the depth of the information in His Divine Grace's books, the information he left us about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,Sri Sr Radha Krsana, the Gosvamis, pure devotion, so many transcendental topics are so deep and vast, deeper than the deepest ocean, that it only serves our best interest to hear from other person Bhagavata Vaisnavas so that we can better appreciate the subject matter. We are never done hearing and our seva to the guru parampara is eternally under guidance. Place all the faith you want in your "sharp intellect and natural intelligence." I would rather trust other self realized souls and take their guidance and assistance over my own mind and intellect. Prabhupada's books are not ordinary books. The subject matter they illuminate can only be realized by mature devotion and surrender and by the mercy of our guru parampara. Sri gurun, plural.

" The great devotee Uddhava once wrote a letter to Krsna, "My dear Krsna, I have just finished the study of all kinds of philosophical books and Vedic verses about the goal of life, and so now I have a little reputation for my studies. But still, in spite of my reputation, my knowledge is condemned, because although enjoying the effulgence of Vedic knowledge, I could not appreciate the effulgence emanating from the nails of Your toes. Therefore, the sooner my pride and Vedic knowledge are finished, the better it will be!" This is an example of indifference."

NOD

He was the first one to give instructions to the ENTIRE WESTERN WORLD. To suggest that since he is dead that they cannot be understood directly as they are is patently insane and a great offense to all he has accomplished...

NO one has said that His Divine Grace's books cannot be understood directly. I am simply suggesting that they can be better undertsood and their depth more appreciated in the association of Vaisnavas who have actually realized the subject matter, "One who knows the subject matter, he can explain." One of my siskas guru's has explained:

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says in his Sri Bhajana Rahasya

that even if you have received nistha, you should hear from high-class

devotees.There are two kinds of bhagavatas. One is the transcendental book bhagavata, which was received by Vyasa in his trance, and in which all kinds of very powerful and sweet pastimes of Krsna have been given. It is under lock and key, however. It can be only opened by the highest class of bhakta-bhagavata. These devotees have the key. Any ordinary bhakta, anyone who is in a stage lower than rati, cannot unlock it. Only one who has received suddha-sattva from an eternal parikara (associate) of Krsna, like Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and all the sad-Gosvamis, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, and others up to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada, can open the lock.Don't lose the fortune to hear from superiors."

SBVNM

Of course if someone CANNOT for some reason understand, they may take shelter of some one who does! That is what he said. For anyone to imply that the only person who does is one of his Godbrothers from India is laughable. Ha Ha Ha. What an offense to Srila Prabhupada's memory. What a failure that would make him. No one got it. Now they must turn to his godbrothers to understand. Godbrothers who say things that are directly in contradiction to things he said. Using the same language. I am not blind...

The only godbrothers of His Divince Grace that I have ever actually met are Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami and Srila Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaja. When I met them they expressed love and affection for His Divine Grace and rememberd him fondly as their dear godbrother. Their association, though brief, only helped whatever effort I am making to advance in spiritual life. My siksa guru's are both grand disciples of SBSST, so kindly accept that small clarification. No one has said that anyone needs to "turn to his godbrothers". Hardly any of them are on the planet. If you understand His Divine Grace's books so well with your "sharp intellect and natural intelligence." then it behooves you to be sarcastic concerning the principle of accepting a siksa guru. Please forgive me if you think that is putting words in your mouth. It is simply a reaction to the tone your posts generate. . You believe that the conversation with Madhudvisa only applies to brand new devotees, and I believe His Divine Grace's reply goes much deeper and applies to all of us. It gives us direction, in His Divine Grace's physical absence, to learn from someone who understands the subject matter and it points us to sadhu-sanga and to siksa guru. That is another actual difference between us. How we have realized or not what His Divine Grace has said and written.

TEXT 35

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

TEXT

mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana

tanhara carana age kariye vandana

SYNONYMS

mantra-guru--the initiating spiritual master; ara--and also; yata--as many (as there are); siksa-guru-gana--all the instructing spiritual masters; tanhara--of all of them; carana--unto the lotus feet; age--at first; kariye--I offer; vandana--respectful obeisances.

TRANSLATION

I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him.

If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

One last observation, if you please:

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja observed:

God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness

Responding to the necessity of the times Srila Sridhara Maharaja lucidly explains the absolute societal conception of Krsna consciousness:

Devotee: Within a religious mission, sectarian policies may appear to bar the path of progress and pragmatic concerns take precedence over spiritual ideals. Should one risk leaving the formal institution or should he try to remain within and work out the problems?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Progress means elimination and new acceptance. So, when there is a clash between the relative and the absolute standpoint, the relative must be left aside, and the absolute accepted. The example is given of a socialist in a country of capitalists. When there is a clash, one will not express their creed for the sake of peace. But to maintain the purity of their faith for the socialists they will try to leave and join the socialists.

Higher Ideal

So, the absolute and the relative are two different classes of interest. And we find more importance in the absolute interest. We must be sincere to our own creed. The form is necessary to help me in a general way to maintain my present position. At the same time, my conception of the higher ideal will always goad me to advance, to go forward, and wherever I do, I must follow the greater model, the greater ideal. Spiritual life is progressive, not stagnant. We are in the stage of sadhana, and we want to go ahead, not backwards. The formal position will help me to maintain my present status, and my extraordinary affinity for the ideal will goad me towards the front. The search for Sri Krsna is dynamic and living, so adjustment and readjustment is always going on. And we should also change our present position accordingly, so that we may not have to sacrifice the high ideal for which we have come. . . .

Disappearance of the Guru

Devotee: After the disappearance of the spiritual master, how should the disciples continue the mission?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You must not neglect your conscience. Otherwise you have no faith in your own cause. There may be disturbances but we should not leave the preaching of Mahaprabhu, despite all differences. Disturbances must come, and we must undergo them. Still, we must remain sincere; we must face the difficulty in a proper way. It has come to train us to go in the right direction.

The Fire has Come to Test Us

What we have received from our spiritual master we understood only in a rough estimation. Now, things have come in such a way that we have to scrutinize ourselves in every position. We have to analyze ourselves. Atma-niksepa, self-analysis has begun. We are under trial. What we have received from our spiritual master, in what way have we received it? Properly, or only showingly? The time has come to purify us, to test whether we are real students, real disciples, or his disciples only in face and confession. What is the position of a real disciple? If we live in a society, what is the depth of our creed? In what attitude have we accepted his teachings? How deep-rooted is it within us? The fire has come to test whether we can stand. Is our acceptance real? Or is it a sham, an imitation? This fire will prove that.. . .

And God has no error. He commands the environment. It is not our responsibility. The responsibility of the environment does not rest upon us. If I am sincere, then I have to adjust myself with this environment and put my faith before Him. "Everyone may leave me, but I shall stand alone!" With this attitude we must march on, whatever the circumstances may be. Then the recognition may come in my favor, that "Yes, under such trying circumstances he is still there." Our superiors will be pleased with us.

The relative and absolute considerations are always coming in clash. The absolute should be accepted and the relative sacrificed. Still the relative is necessary. After graduation from primary school another teacher is accepted for higher education, but that does not mean that the primary teacher is neglected or insulted. For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point.

. . . Sometimes the father may not be our guardian. Our uncle may be our guide, and not the father. It is possible. The line of interest is to be considered the most important. So, our line is the siksa guru parampara.

I am thankful to those that are helping my spiritual understanding not only in a formal way, but in the real sense. Whoever is untying the knots of our entanglement in this material world, giving us light, and quenching our thirst for inner understanding and satisfaction is our guru. In this way, we live on the contribution of all these spiritual masters. They are all our siksa gurus. All the Vaisnavas are more or less our instructing spiritual masters.

And our own sincere hankering for the truth will be our guide. That is guru parampara. So the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of the divine love which is coming down. We must bow our heads wherever we find support of that. We should not become formalists, but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic thinkers. That should always be our temperament.

And what sort of saintly persons shall we try to mix with earnestly? In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.91) Rupa Goswami has said, sajati-yasye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare: Those who are in our line, who have the same high spiritual aspirations as we do, and who hold a superior position. To associate with such saintly persons will help us the most to progress towards the ultimate goal.

There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati) [bg. 6.40]. What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success.

The formal societal position helps one to maintain their present status while our affinity for the high ideal will always push us to advance in Krsna consciousness. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.18 it is stated that whatever hinders our advancement must be left behind, even society consciousness. The society is there to help us, not hinder us. Our process is Krsna consciousness not society consciousness.

Next chapter: SG & HG

Shri Guru & His Grace: Index

Shri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha

I am not going to discuss the rest of your post. I simply cannot place too much stock in your "sharp intellect and natural intelligence." and how it tries to explain what His Divine Grace really means. As you don't feel the need to take any help from anyone how to understand and realize the depth of what His Divine Grace has written in his books, frankly we don't need your explanation of what he said to glean what he really meant. My intellect may not be as sharp as yours and my natural intelligence is certainly limited by my conditioning but it is easy enough to understand what His Divine Grace is saying directly.

I am not trying to put any words in your mouth. It is very clear from your posts that you believe you can go directly to His Divine Grace's books and fully understand them with no siksa from anyone as those books are non different than hearing directly from His Divine Grace. My suggestion is that there might be something in the books or that we heard from His Divine Grace directly that we missed, that we can better understand and one day more fully realize with the assistance and anugatya of a siksa guru. Simple point. BTW If so many of His Divine Grace's disciples "got it" then why did his mission collapse under the weight of ambition, child abuse, neglect of women, Vaisnava aparadha and so many other anomolies that had nothing to do with what we read in His Divine Grace's books?

Puru_Das · June 15, 2006

Puru das quotes SSBST

"Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings"

Try to understand that SBSST is addressing the followers of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura after his physical departure, maha-samadhi.. SBSST is telling SBT's folowers they must secure the guiding grace of the present living acarya,and not just rely on empiric study of the books of the predecessor acarya. It is understood that SBSST wants practitioners to follow the instructions of SBT. SBSST does not want followers of SBT to ignore the principle of , surrender,seva and submissive inquiry from the present living acarya. The same intructions are in His Divine Grace's books regarding guru, everywhere, in too numerous places to list all the quotes.

And how do we secure Srila Prabhuapada's guiding grace in order to understand his message. We secure his grace by internally accepting him as spiritual master, obeying his basic instructions, chant and follow the 4 regs and associate with him PERSONALLY through his vani. This cleanses the dust from our hearts.

What about the message he gave in the purport to Bg. 4.34?

What does that mean, "internally accepting him as spiritual master.?"

You can certainly become his follower by accepting his vanih and following his instructions, but no one has been able to become his initiated disciple since 1977. This is the rtvk myth, that you can be Srila Prabhupada's direct disciple after his nara lila ended.

Srila Prabhupada writes very clearly in his books that only uttama adhikaris, fully self realized souls, can hear from caitya guru. One can accept any departed acarya as his shastra guru, but he still has to take harinama and diksa initiation from another member of the guru parampara, the predecessor acarya's successor.

How does anyone "internally accept"any departed acarya as spiritual master when Srila Rupa Gosvami has clearly given the first two angas of bhakti and meant them to be followed in the context of a living sadhu.

Of course we try to take shelter of the vanih of all the predecessor acaryas in our guru parampara. For success in spiritual life we are instructed by Srila Rupa Gosvami (62nd anga of bhakti) to establish sambhanda (relationship) and make friendship with sajatiya (like minded) and sngdha (affectionate) pure Vaisnavas. SBSST did not want any of SBT's followers to ignore this principle and His Divine Grace did not want any one to ignore it either.

The same is true for Srila Prabhupada, anyone who reads his books and does not understand what disciplic succession means, and believes that there is no current sad guru to hear from, associate with and take initiation from has also missed the point of why he published books. None of our acaryas write books to take the place of living sadhus, but rather to encourage devotees to actively seek them out.

I never said that I believe there is no current sad guru to hear from.

Well thanks for that. What is your reccomendation then to sincere followers of His Divine Grace as to how they can follow the vanih he gave us in his purport to Bg. 4.34.

June 15, 2006

Dear Puru Das.

I apologise if my pointing out the truth as I see it has made you upset, and now you feel unfriendly toward me.

But what can I do, but speak my mind clearly and directly?

I will once again, this time limiting myself to 2 examples, show how you misundersood, and misconstrued my words in order to perpetuate your need to give me unsolicited advise that is not in line with what my spiritual master has advised me.

But first I will start at the end with your parting Jab where after tilting at every strawman and windmill you came across in your mindscape, you went for the real source of your intellectual envy.

Puru Das said.

BTW If so many of His Divine Grace's disciples "got it" then why did his mission collapse under the weight of ambition, child abuse, negelct of women, Vaisnava aparadha and so many other anomolies that had nothing to do with what we read in His Divine Grace's books?

So here we see your minds true color. If he was truly "His Divine Grace" to you, then how can you say in the next breath that his mission (presumably a divine one) has COLLAPSED.

YOU OF LITTLE FAITH IN THE LORD AND HIS REPRESENTATIVES.

Beneath all the hubub caused by the less intelligent, and the insincere, who's showbottle madness has shocked the world in its grotesquerie, his mission lives on and thrives and manifests itself everyday in the hearts minds and deeds of those who keep it alive plenty. Just not as showy, like the Hidden Avatar it represents, and I and other "anonymous guests" to this party are doing just fine thank you very little.

As far as your complete misunderstanding of another point I made, which lent a tenous thread to your latest rant as you beat it like the dead horse it already was, I would be happy to clear the air.

I said.

I am one who DOES UNDERSTAND, because of the blessing of my "English" education and my small but real devotion, what this Shakta-avesha avatar and Pure Acharya had to and continues to say through his vani. Due to this sharp intellect and natural intelligence I do not need anyone but himself to tell me what he means. . . .

Blessing of my "English" education = sharp intellect

small but real devotion = natural intelligence

BG- 10:10 "Buddhi-yoga itself is action in Kṛṣṇa consciousness; that is the highest intelligence. Buddhi means intelligence"

and from the same verse.

"A person may have a bona fide spiritual master and may be attached to a spiritual organization, but still, if he is not intelligent enough to make progress, then Kṛṣṇa from within gives him instructions so that he may ultimately come to Him without difficulty."

How did I get my small devotion? Srila Prabhupada. What platform do I consider myself on? Buddhi Yoga. Natural intelligence. That is why I made the distinction between INTELLECT which refers to material intelligence, and NATURAL intelligence.

I have both, and they work just fine, so up til now, I have relied on The Pure Devotee Srila Prabhupada to translate and explain all the Holy Scriptures needed to help me go back to Godhead.

What I would not be able to understand if I just read the translations of Krsna's words due to my imperfect senses, Srila Prabhupada explained in detail in my language to help me. Nothing hard to understand there.

And just one other thing you said was unfounded.

Puru das: "One actual difference between us is that I don't see how it glorifies Srila Prabhupada to denegrate other disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura."

OUCH! Hold the phone!

Of course you try to cover your butt this time by claiming I imply the "denigration" of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's disciples.

Puru das: "However, it is a typical symptom of Prabhupada fanatacism to make distinctions amongst Vaisnavas and to falsely imply that HDG was the only worthy disciple of SBSST who did pure service to His divine lotus feet. And please forgive me if you think this observation is putting words in your mouth as you did not actually say directly any such thing. I did say imply"

And I said,

"Srila Prabhupada, the Self Effulgent Acharya who broke from the pack of mixed devotees who were unable to directly fulfill Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's desires completely, and fell prey to exactly every criticism which Srila Prabhupada lovingly levied at them."

Nothing but the truth spoken there. The fact that Srila Prabhupada was present among a pack of mixed devotees is not in dispute. Any who were beyond that platform are obviously not included in that group.

Is it a denigration that they were unable to directly and completely do what Srila Prabhupada did? No way. We know now that most of them have been quite happy that he was so empowered.

And Srila Prabhupada's criticism stands. And apparently it had some positive effect to help them advance in their devotion.

Implication of denigration? Only in your mind because you cannot stand to admit when you are wrong and therefore do your best to IMPLY that I am a rascal offensive aparadhi instead of conceding the excellent points I make. This is called projection. It is a psychological defense mechanism. It is a human thing, and I am not angry with you for exhibiting it, but I suggest not denying it before it gets any worse. I am not perfect. But you are really pushing the envelope here.

I wouldn't even have to bring up Srila Prabhupada's paramount position as contrasted by those he chastised repeatedly if disiciples of those would keep a zipped lip and not denigrate DIRECTLY BY THEIR OWN WORDS Srila Prabhupada's abilties and teachings and mission.

Hare Krsna

your favorite Prabhupada fanatic and Buddhi Yogi,

Mark

theist · June 15, 2006

What does that mean, "internally accepting him as spiritual master.?"
You can certainly become his follower by accepting his vanih and following his instructions, but no one has been able to become his initiated disciple since 1977. This is the rtvk myth, that you can be Srila Prabhupada's direct disciple after his nara lila ended.

Aren't you dizzy yet Puru? OK You admit one can be a "follower" of Srila Prabhupada by following his instructions.

You also say no one can be his intiated disciple after 1977.

Disciple means one who follows the discipline given by Guru.

So if a general or lay follower comes to incorporate the discipline of Srila Prabhupada into his life heart and soul does he not become a disciple or follower of the discipline?

But I guess the key word is again initiation. I only accept initiation as a process myself. Along this process one is to undergo a change of heart and eventually become a pure lover of Krsna. To me this process is diksa / initiation, at least the only definition that counts.

As far as the ritviks fooling themselves I would say 95% of those followers who underwent the formal ceremony prior to 1977 are not true "direct disciples" of Srila Prabhupada and are still at the lay follower status. Real disciples are rare.

I wonder what exact point you are trying to make through all these posts?

Sadhu sanga and it's importance? That is not in contention.

Vapu over vani? That is simply not accepted by the majority nor will it ever be.

Just promoting your guru? You are a more mature devotee than that.

I am left baffeled as to your intent.

June 15, 2006

Dear Theist,

When all other possibilities are ruled out, whatever remains is all there is left.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Puru_Das · June 15, 2006

Mark, I am more than willing to admit that it is a mistake for me to try and discuss the value of sadhu sanga and the meaning of adau sraddha tatah sadhu sanga with you. Thank you for any excellent points you may have made that I have missed due to my own false prestige. I will certaily go back and re read the thread to try and find them, excellent as they must be, since you say so.

Thank you for acknowledging that Srila Prabhupada had godbrothers who also rose above the mix. " Any who were beyond that platform are obviously not included in that group." I am glad you understand that point and agree with the statement HDG made in Cc. Adi lila 12.8 and the SB 4th Canto. I am also quite happy to have misunderstood your implication and I gladly retract my conclusion if it was off. However you also said

"I wouldn't even have to bring up Srila Prabhupada's paramount position as contrasted by those he chastised repeatedly if disiciples of those would keep a zipped lip and not denigrate DIRECTLY BY THEIR OWN WORDS Srila Prabhupada's abilties and teachings and mission."

You will have to be more specific so we don't come to any false conclusions about your remark. I've never heard anything but praise for Srila Prabhupada's abilities from the devotees I associate with. I did meet Yati Maharaja once in Mayapura. Because I knew he had written some things critical of Srila Prabhupada's translation of the Krsna Book and SB in his own English version of SB, I avoided the topic of guru with him.

He was nevertheless, very kind and had nothing but nice things to say about all of the disciples of SBSST who left the Gaudiya Mission to start their own branches.

"Paramount position should then apply to all of SBSST's disciples who actually followed him and were pure Vaisnavas" . That there was a distinction between His Divine Grace and certain of his godbrothers who did not follow SBSST is not in contention. That the details of Srila Prabhupada's seva were unique, that he was successful where other godbrothers may not have been as successful , to spread KC in the west and worldwide is clear.

However I can't see the need to stress "Paramount position". I can't see how pure devotees are one better than the other. The details of their seva may differ, but pure devotion is pure devotion. My observation stands that it is unecessary to glorify the spiritual master at the expense of anyone else.

One other small point is that all the disciples of SBSST are our spiritual uncles, and where it may have been time and circumstance preaching for His Divine Grace to have made statements about some of them and what some of them did or did not do, it seems to me improper Vaisnavsa etiquette for us to raise the issue.

In Cc. Adi lila 12.10-11 Srila Prabhupada wrote:

TEXT 10

TEXT

acaryera mata yei, sei mata sara

tanra ajna langhi' cale, sei ta' asara

SYNONYMS

acaryera--of the spiritual master (Advaita Prabhu); mata--opinion; yei--what is; sei--that; mata--opinion; sara--active principle; tanra--his; ajna--order; langhi'--transgressing; cale--becomes; sei--that; ta'--however; asara--useless.

TRANSLATION

The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless.

PURPORT

Here is the opinion of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.

TEXT 11

TEXT

asarera name ihan nahi prayojana

bheda janibare kari ekatra ganana

SYNONYMS

asarera--of the useless persons; name--in their name; ihan--in this connection; nahi--there is no; prayojana--use; bheda--differences; janibare--to know; kari--I do; ekatra--in one list; ganana--counting.

TRANSLATION

There is no need to name those who are useless. I have mentioned them only to distinguish them from the useful devotees.

Mark just replace "mission" with "iskcon institution," since I certainly agree that Lord Caitanya's Movement is eternal and alive and well in the hearts of pure devotees.

Theist, Vanih and vapuh are not in competitionwith each other.. Both have their importance and the importance of both should simply be understood in proper perspective of Srila Rupa Gosvami's 64 angas of bhakti.

theist don't be bewildered. If a discussion of the difference between follower and initiated disciple, causes you mental grief. we can avoid that discussion. Your intent on these forums also baffeles me.

June 15, 2006

Puru Das

Your glib, facetious, and condescending attempt to brand me as an unreasonable and unqualified person to discuss topics that you consider yourself so adept in is duly noted.

I see a tiny pinhole of light poking through that small window atop your ivory tower in your recognition that I understand some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers rose above the fray, and your retraction based on my word that I was not implying otherwise duly noted as well.

Of course to then growl right back with your next statement implying that I was glorifying my Spiritual Master at the expense of someone else renders your previous statement impotent and disingenuous.

I was forced, by dint of your obstinacy at ignoring the small and simple things, and faithlessness in the role of my spiritual master to uplift newcomers to Bhakti (now that he seems so dead to you and others who preach the way you do) to take great latitude in striking a balance to your extremism by contrasting Srila Prabhupada against the pack of mixed devotees, and according to him some who were less than that, to show just how uniquely he was used and potent he was by Sri Krsna's grace.

Based on his words, and the words and actions of those under his discipline today, I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his MISSION, which included instituting a sadhana vehicle for his disciples by offering the rules and regulations of Vaidhi Bhakti within a framework of Daivi Varnashrama Dharma called ISKCON is not collapsed as you said, and continue to imply in no uncertain terms.

It still represents a living branch of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Brahma Madhva Gaudya Vaisnava Sampradaya and Sankirtana Movement.

It also affords anyone with faith in his teachings the chance to progress to Raganuga Bhakti of all stages including, well, I am sure you already know the Sanskrit words which describe the highest stage of Krsna prema Bhakti.

And furthermore, such an aspirant may do this without ever meeting a single one of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrother's, or reading anything they have written.

That is not to say that meeting one of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrother's would necessarily impede or detract from their progress. Just that it would continue without it.

Advanced sadhu sanga is not dependent on people approaching your Guru.

Repeat that three times, and write me back in the morning.

Hare Krsna.

June 15, 2006

Puru Das

Your glib, facetious, and condescending attempt to brand me as an unreasonable and unqualified person to discuss topics that you consider yourself so adept in is duly noted.

I see a tiny pinhole of light poking through that small window atop your ivory tower in your recognition that I understand some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers rose above the fray, and your retraction based on my word that I was not implying otherwise duly noted as well.

Hare Krsna.

As much as I love and admire Puru das and know that he is very sincere in what he believes, he has a history of trying to bury topics and discussions with volumes of copy and paste like the Parrot King of New York.

This is his way of diverting the discussing, frustrating the discussion and essentially ruining the discussion with volumes and volumes of parrot-like copy and paste.

In fact he has copied and pasted about the whole canon of modern Vaishnavas, yet is still head-over-heals entrenched in the cult of Narayana Maharaja.

Some devotees have let their hatred and bitterness for the GBC drive them to madness as they seek out the latest version of the gopi-bhava club that has the best potential to possibly undermine Srila Prabhupada's efforts to protect Gaudiya Vaishnavism from the perversion that is rampant in western countries.

I am glad to have Puru involved in the discussion, but it is really annoying that he keeps up this relentless copy and paste of volumes and volumes while expressing very little of his own realizations.

June 15, 2006

Rest assured, if you post something that is not good for the cult of Narayana Maharaja, that Puru das will bury your post under about 20 long, copy/paste replies to try and make sure that nobody bothers to read back as far as your post.

Puru has got this gattling-gun of copy/paste technique with which he buries anything that is controversial or revealing about Narayana Maharaja.

The first time I heard Narayana Maharaja minimize Srila Prabhupada I hated him and I will never forgive him.

As far as I am concerned he is a demon.

any one that follows Narayana Maharaja is a murderer of Srila Prabhupada.

Narayan Maharaja buried Srila Prabhupada and has been making sure that everyone knows he is dead and gone ever since.

Your guru is dead, I buried him.

Now, I am the acharya.

theist · June 15, 2006

Theist, Vanih and vapuh are not in competitionwith each other..

No kidding. That is what people have been telling you over and over again but you only hear your own mind's voice apparently and can't hear others.

Both have their importance and the importance of both should simply be understood in proper perspective of Srila Rupa Gosvami's 64 angas of bhakti.

But of course we are all individual souls with individual inclinations and tastes and Krsna reveals Himself to each individual accordingly. Some people just may prefer associating with Srila Prabhupadas vani than sit in front of your gurus body and hear from him. Others will choose just the opposite as is their right. Some of us choose at this time to remain in the general lay follower status as is our right. We in this camp can be found just reading about Krsna from Srila Prabhupada and growing slowly. Some are more serious and inspired and are applying themselves to Srila Prabhupadas instructions with great vigor.

People in my camp of general followers are also found sitting in the lecture room with Narayana Maharaja. Just as very serious and committed disciples may be.

We all make our choices for better or worse.

I already have a transcendental ocean full of vani to occupy me for a million lifetimes should I ever become sincere and serious just from Srila Prabhupada and several others. Personally I don't need to go hear Narayana Maharaja. As I have said before I hope Krsna blesses him with a thousand temples world wide and that he inspires millions to chant Hare Krsna. But it is not place to hear from him and many others feel that way to. You should learn to respect that rather you agree or disagree.

theist don't be bewildered. If a discussion of the difference between follower and initiated disciple, causes you mental grief. we can avoid that discussion.

nimbo pani · June 16, 2006

Mark wrote:

Forget about love. How about we start with humility, common courtesy and respect?

Mark then subsequently engaged in dialogue with Puru prabhu utilizing a not-so-witty, (for someone with a self-described "sharp intellect"), dreadful collage of sarcasm, insults, projection, hubris, falsehoods, false accusations, and other not-so-humble, not-so-courteous, not-so-respectful words and phrases:

glib, facetious, and condescending...I see a tiny pinhole of light poking through that small window atop your ivory tower...growl...impotent and disingenuous...by dint of your obstinacy at ignoring the small and simple things...faithlessness...you misundersood, and misconstrued my words...intellectual envy... tilting at every strawman and windmill you came across in your mindscape...YOU OF LITTLE FAITH IN THE LORD AND HIS REPRESENTATIVES...Beneath all the hubub caused by the less intelligent, and the insincere, who's showbottle madness has shocked the world in its grotesquerie...thank you very little...your latest rant...OUCH! Hold the phone!...Of course you try to cover your butt...you cannot stand to admit when you are wrong...instead of conceding the excellent points I make...This is called projection. It is a psychological defense mechanism. It is a human thing, and I am not angry with you for exhibiting it, but I suggest not denying it...your favorite Prabhupada fanatic and Buddhi Yogi...The actual difference between us is that I read that statement through the eyes of love of my savior Srila Prabhupada...patently insane and a great offense to all he has accomplished...Ha Ha Ha...What an offense to Srila Prabhupada's memory...So start small, be humble, and be careful...PLEASE!!!...

And speaking of strawmen and putting words into someone's mouth, Mark wrote:

Advanced sadhu sanga is not dependent on people approaching your Guru

nimbo pani · June 16, 2006

You are as obvious in you mission of promoting Narayana Maharaja although you try to make your points in an oblique manner so as not to be so obvious.

Once again, "Theist, the mind-reader."

Theist, I can assure you that you are mistaken, and I find it offensive that you continue to propagate this misconception whenever Puru prabhu posts. He studies the works of many different Acaryas and Sadhus. He enjoys discussing siddhanta. Please allow him to do this without your constant barking that he has some agenda to promote or that he's only here to "tout" (as you say) one of his siksa gurus.

theist · June 16, 2006

I have been aware of Puru's post's for five years or more and it is always on the same point.

June 16, 2006

Once again, "Theist, the mind-reader."

Theist, I can assure you that you are mistaken, and I find it offensive that you continue to propagate this misconception whenever Puru prabhu posts. He studies the works of many different Acaryas and Sadhus. He enjoys discussing siddhanta. Please allow him to do this without your constant barking that he has some agenda to promote or that he's only here to "tout" (as you say) one of his siksa gurus.

anybody that drinks lemon water and knows about "broken records" must be a child of the 60's and one of the original disciples of Srila Prabhupada...

or............. does my crystal ball need dusting off?

(hahaha)

June 16, 2006

Ha! Nimbo Pani,

I didn't know how much you cared.

If there was anyone so unfortunate as to not be able to catch the clear implication of who to turn to for the PREREQUISITE Sadhu sanga lest their devotional life be forever stunted as Srila Prabhupada's "Nara Lila" is over and he is no longer available, etc. etc.

And perhaps my unfortunately impure penchant for grandstanding was getting in the way, I decided to make it clear. That is not a strawman. And I didn't quote him either. What do you have invested in defending such nonsense anyway?

And as for you subjective opinion regarding my wit, well, I won't bore you with one of the many cliche's regarding the worth of subjective opinions, lest you label me a boorish boor as well.

And as far as falsehoods, go ahead and prove it. The rest of your characterizations don't bother me in the least. At least I have some color left in my cheeks, and haven't turned into a droning robot regurgitating that which I have not yet realized in defense of phantom pure devotees.

"There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. "SSBST

This applies to all the phoney baloneys who use scripture as a cudgel to bludgeon people into their "menial service"

And I am the guy who grabs the cudgel from them and swings it back.

But first I offer reasonable and logical debate, hoping to turn them, offering the truth with the same gentleness that I show the small children in grade school who I care for, who without false humility, love me a bunch for it.

When that is rejected, what is left? I am not one of the limp wristed who considers it an offense to reign in an offender.

Get used to this. Every Sky Pirate on this planet is going to crash and burn if I have anything to say about it. And apparently I've got a mouthfull.

So whats up?

Hari Bol

JLdd · June 16, 2006

Srila Prabhupada said to his disciples:

June 16, 2006

Dear Jaya Lalita Devi Dasi

Please accept my humble obeisances

All glories to your Guru and my Guru.

It was clear to me also that HDG A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami considered formal diksa inititation important enough to offer the ceremony himself! Of course scripture gives good reasons for why it is performed, and it is part of the process of Diksa or the transmission of transcendental knowledge.

But did you know that before he left the planet physically, that he was, toward the end, not directly involved in any aspect of the ceremony? He had even authorized a disciple of his to accept the recommendations of a candidate from the Temple Presidents on faith, send them beads and a name for the new disciple, and Srila Prabhupada's secretary wrote the new name in Srila Prabhupada's book of Disciples. Srila Prabhupada never even met many of them either. Totally hands off.

He had faith in his pure Siksa and the acceptance of that instruction by any one of us as the "Real initiation" as he liked to call it. Once that initial trigger is switched on, the process of Diksa begins.

If he had confidence that the 2nd/bramnin/diksa initiation ceremony still had the proper potency to do what it is meant to do without his direct PHYSICAL involvement, where did the transcendental potency come from during those ceremonies? From his neophyte disciples?

As long as the disciple being formally initiated was sincere about his vow, and the gayatri tape was played so he could hear Srila Prabhupada's voice, Sri Krsna's internal potency does the rest.

So when he left the planet and said, just keep doing the same thing, I'll just add more of you to the list to help with the initiation duties, it was no big change.

Of course the ambitious will turn anything into an opportunity for power whether it is or not.

Still doesn't change the facts of his Divine arrangement.

I hope this pleases your senses.

Hare Krsna

y.s.

Mark

Without our books, our preaching will have no effect.

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