Narayana Maharaja and Higher Teachings

[raga]

 

Puru: Read the entire thing and then your question is answered.

Puru, please tell us which babajis are saying the things you have quoted.

[Guest guest]

 

Puru, please tell us which babajis are saying the things you have quoted.

 

Very nice to have you in the discussion Raga.

I was wanting to ask him the same thing.

 

I think Puru has finally met his match here and if he tries to respond he will be defeated soundly.

 

Please, stay with us here and lets get to the bottom of this issue.

[raga]

I am not really interested in entertaining an extended debate with our verbose friend, Puru Das. He is well aware of my earlier responses to the said issues, which leaves me baffled over his bringing them to the table again. It tickles me greatly.

 

Let me just ask questions. The first one being, "who are the babajis who are saying the things that have been quoted." If that is not clarified, one runs the risk of attacking mirages. There is enough negative feeling in this world even without imagining more, even if some might justify that as a matter of generating chivalrous team spirit among his group of devotees. That generally just leads to aparadha.

 

On a related note, may I ask who you are and where you stand as far as your spiritual affiliations are concerned, Viraja-man? Does the name suggest that you are at tatastha, weighing in the options?

[Guest guest]

Hari Bol

 

I have never met Narayana Maharaj in person, but I hear so much about him and how advanced and exalted he is. Then I hear so much characterization which is diametrically opposed to this.

 

So I just look at what he says and decide for myself.

 

NM - "He could not give this to his general disciples at that time, however, because most of them were not in the stage to understand."

 

That is funny. Srila Prabhupada said he gave everything in his books. Whether is disciples could understand all of it, right away, is irrelevant. The science of Bhakti Yoga is a process. Diksa is a process. I am a neophyte and I get this.

 

NM - "Even now I am endeavoring with great labor to make you understand, but still only a few are trying to understand."

 

I may be a bit dim compared to the wise elders and luminaries of the world, but I have never heard any of them even hint that an individual can MAKE anyone else understand anything. No offense intended but that is scary to hear ANYONE say. And he labors at it.

 

NM - "We have not come for joining any society. We have come to serve Radha-Krishna Conjugal and Mahaprabhu. This is our aim and object. Why remain where the object is not fulfilled?"

 

Now this might be something someone says to egg someone on if they think they are stuck in a rut and taking unfair advantage of the society without intending to use their societal position dovetailed in devotional service.

 

But I read another place where he directly negates the fact that Srila Prabhupada began a society based on varnashrama dharma for his disciples to practice vaidhi bhakti within. Was he just misinformed.

 

From : Srila Narayan Maharaj speaks at the Disappearance Day Festival of Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja.

 

NM - "But he can glorify our gurudeva, and also we can glorify Swamiji, Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. But those who are falling down, how can they glorify him? They cannot glorify him, never. So we can glorify him in his line, and he's in our line, in my gurudeva's, this line, and we are in this line. In true guru parampara. He was in Gaudiya parampara, we are also. But now they are giving up. And they are cutting. They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKON, but I know that he was not founder, he was one of the members of this in guru parampara. It was founded by Krsna, and first acarya was Brahma, then Narada, then Vyasa. Only he has changed the name and he has preached these things in Western countries."

 

You see. Totally minimizing what was Srila Prabhupada's internal guidance to offer a society so we could dovetail our tendencies as yukta-vairagya. Gradual process. It was his vision and this is documented. Why won't he give it a chance. Not EVERYONE has fallen. This would render the legacy of Srila Prabhupada as impotent. I am astonished.

 

NM - "His life's ideal and principal desire was to give this prema to the world, but first he had to spend a long time in cutting away the jungle and in preaching vaidhi-bhakti. He desired to translate the Srimad-Bhagavatam in full and especially to elaborately describe the pastimes narrated in the Tenth Canto. But BHAGAVAN DID NOT AGREE and He called him back to His nitya-lila."

 

I thought that the first book he offered to his disciples called Krishna Book was a confidential and intimate commentary on the 10th canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Is there anyone who can speak to this or do I need to track this guy down myself and ask him myself where he gets his strange ideas from? He certainly does not seem to be doing justice to Srila Prabhupada's memory.

[stonehearted]

 

I thought that the first book he offered to his disciples called Krishna Book was a confidential and intimate commentary on the 10th canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam.

First book? Where did you get that idea? Before Krishna Book, he gave us the first canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, Sri Isopanishad, and The Nectar of Devotion. And before all those was Easy Journey to Other Planets. That doesn't change your point, of course.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Stony,

 

I date myself of course.

 

Interesting that he went from 1st canto to 10th.

 

Hari Bol

[Guest guest]

Narayana Maharaja;

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja preached this, but in the beginning he had to cut so many jungles of mayavada, nirvesesa, and sahajiya philosophies. He saw that in order to make the land of the world fertile, it would take a long time. He therefore put all these truths in his transcendental literatures. He thought that if any of his disciples would be qualified to go deep into those truths, all this vani would be taught there. He wanted to preach it also, but it was rare to find a student who could go so deep. Most of his students could not follow him, and that is why so many fell down even from sannyasa. They made many offenses to him, and they are now burning in hell.

 

Narayana Maharaja says that MOST of Srila Prabhupada's disciples did not make it and are all now residents of Hell.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

Jai Sri Radhe

 

Before I (Myrla) start, I’d like to say that everytime I go on the net and see ferocious scrutiny on the person that I came to love and consider Guru (after almost 28 years of searching for a Guru and even if he hasn’t given me the ceremonial initiation yet), they give me mixed emotions: makes me feel like crying, it causes me to pace our living room back and forth thinking how I will understand those accusations/misunderstanding and how I will answer them. It sometimes give me anxiety and I even have told my husband and kids that I will not visit any Vaishnava internet sites anymore because some, I stress some, have become an “open season for bird shooting”. My family thinks this is turning me into a very weird person. I love SNM because he has a track record of impeccable character, great spiritual realizations, (he sometimes makes me cry with his teachings and the way he says them) and he is gutsy. He seems to be a target bec he has a very high profile especially in the west (not because he deliberately wants it). Believe me there are other personalities more deserving of scrutiny.

 

Guest posted these:

According to Narayana Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada never got around to distributing prema because he had to spend all his time "cutting away the jungle".

Then he explains how Krishna did not agree with Srila Prabhupada and took him away before he could finish translating Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Quote:

His life's ideal and principal desire was to give this prema to the world, but first he had to spend a long time in cutting away the jungle and in preaching vaidhi-bhakti. He desired to translate the Srimad-Bhagavatam in full and especially to elaborately describe the pastimes narrated in the Tenth Canto. But BHAGAVAN DID NOT AGREE and He called him back to His nitya-lila.

 

Guest continued: I never really understood before that Bhagavan had a disagreement with Srila Prabhupada and took him away before Srila Prabhupada could finish his work.

 

 

 

Myrla says: read again the SNM quote you quoted. Your interpretation is not in line with SNM’s words. Guest, your turn of phrase shows that English is your first language but this line “But BHAGAVAN DID NOT AGREE and He called him back to His nitya-lila. " you interpreted it as disaggreement. You obviously do not undertand metaphor. Also about “cutting away the jungle thing” if that was his realization of the turn of events that happened in the Vaishnava world in the west during those times, who are you to refute his understanding? Myself, having a relatively good understanding and first hand experience of what had happened from 1978 to present, well, I definitely see SNM’s point.

 

 

 

To Vijay’s post:

 

Does this have any substance?

Former prominent follower of Narayana Maharaja:

“The Vilap Kusumanjali lectures Narayana Maharaja gave during 1991-1993 were more or less based on the commentaries of Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji. Particularly some of the asta-kaliya-lilas related by the former were of his own realization. In terms of the Gaudiya Math, the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji. Nevertheless Narayana Maharaja plagiarized their works and let people believe he expressed his own realizations. And moreover, now he boycotts the very same persons’, Ananta das Baba's, works directly on his lectures. The translator and publisher of Ananta das Baba's works in English, Advaitadas, is a grand-disciple of Ananda Gopal Gosvamin. For all documents I have seen, Narayana Maharaja has not directly criticized Ananda Gopal Gosvamin, but he would certainly not be accepted by the orthodox followers of the Gaudiya Math.

 

“One of many examples:

Vilapa Kusumanjali verse 31 — Narayana Maharaja says on September 21, 1994: “In the meantime the anklet of one foot came out and went away. Tulasi noticed that the sound of Vamsi had also become less and Srimati Radhika stopped to dance and everything was upset. Tulasi ran towards the anklet, but in the meantime Krsna came and took it. He bound it on the feet of Srimati Radhika, and again the dancing and all things were done as before. Tulasi Manjari remembered this and began to tell to Radhika, “O You remember when Rasa was going on and this happened? Krsna took the anklet Himself and He tightened it on Your feet and again You began to dance.”

Ananda Gopala Gosvami said 40 years earlier: hathat nupura khose geche. Dasi nece nece ese noto hoiya nrtya parayana carane poraiya dilen....nupur khose geche dekhe kokhon-o syamasundara bansi gunje rekhe carana buke tule niye dui hate poran. “Suddenly an anklebell fell off; the maidservant danced and stooped down to put them back on Her dancing feet. Sometimes also Syamasundara, when seeing the anklebell falling off, tucks His flute in His sash, takes Svamini’s feet to His chest and replaces the bell.”

 

 

 

Myrla says: About plagiarism: Plagiarism does not exist in the context of someone using other religious personalities’ realizations/commentaries/discussions/or stories. Plagiarism in religious setting only exists if the writer copied the stuff verbatim, meaning word for word ; even then the writer can copy parts verbatim if the writer cited his/her source. In general, the idea that “ you can not plagiarized the words of a saints” is common sense. Saints are magnanimous and charitable so it is people like us who would make such a FUSS.

 

 

 

Puru das: Did you know that Srila Prabhupada's Caitanya Charitamarta puports nearly read word for word those by of Bhaktisiddhanta's Bengali purports? Yet Iskcon devotees refer to the purports as Srila Prabupada's. Should we accuse Srila Prabhupada of palgarism? I don't.

 

SishirsaHa answered:

This is incorrect. There are thousands of things in Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur's Bengali purports which are not in Srila Prabhupad's Caitanya Caritamarta. There are also a large number of comments in Srila Prabhupad's purports to Caritamrta which are not in Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur's translation or his anubhasya commentary.

 

 

 

Myrla says: To Sishirsaha, your rebuttal is very week here.

 

 

 

Madhavananda das posted:

Let me just ask questions. The first one being, "who are the babajis who are saying the things that have been quoted." If that is not clarified, one runs the risk of attacking mirages. There is enough negative feeling in this world even without imagining more, even if some might justify that as a matter of generating chivalrous team spirit among his group of devotees. That generally just leads to aparadha.

 

 

Myrla says: With due respect, my friend, With that Babaji talk, the import of the talk was the Sahajiya concept, not about any Babaji Guru. Do you think that when he talks about a particular Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy for ex., which could be construed as in opposition to another faith (not Gaudiya Vaishnava), do you see the need for him to identify the pope or the cleric for example. Also he may not even know the names of the people specifically. (BTW, about paypal, it could be because of my new bank a/c added to paypal, which takes about 2 days for security reasons to be in operation. I have not forgotten., ok)

 

 

Myrla says: To stunned taking potshot at one liners and not taking the whole context or understanding the background in which the comments were said are dangerous and would show our depth (or lack of it) of understanding.

 

 

Let us not make the object of our spiritual lives finding wrong in a devoted sadhu’s, such as SNM, words or deeds. Myself, I prefer to find the common grounds between us all.

 

 

Peace out

 

Myrla

Melbourne, Australia

[Kripamoya]

Myrla,

 

It's not a mystery that Narayana Maharaja did not understand Srila Prabhupada, though he has talked many times as if he did.

 

The shastra says that NOBODY can understand the mind of great devotees who are of great spiritual genius.

 

That includes Narayana Maharaja presuming to understand Srila Prabhupada, when in fact he was very much disconnected with Srila Prabhupada's mission during it's entire time.

 

Narayana Maharaja is a great Vaishnava of his own tattva.

His presuming to have understood Srila Prabhupada was probably a mistake.

 

Many followers and admirers of Srila Prabhupada have come accross plenty of criticism of Srila Prabhupada and the entire Saraswata parivar, yet they continue undaunted in their faith.

 

You have to become callous to all these things if you want to be a part of the internet community and all the topics, issues and discussions that take place.

 

Narayana Maharaja is not a carbon copy of Srila Prabhupada. He doesn't have to be. Neither do all the followers of Srila Prabhupada have to find a lot of love and appreciation for Narayana Maharaja.

 

Narayana Maharaja has spoken very harshly about many followers of Srila Prabhupada who fell away and could not keep up the Vaishnava principles.

Surely, he shouldn't expect then to have a whole lot of appreciation from them.

 

He is generally very critical of all the devotees who have not accepted him as siksha guru in the absence of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Surely, he can't expect a whole lot of love and affection from them.

 

Many devotees found Sridhar Maharaja to be an ocean of mercy and kindness in the absence of Srila Prabhupada. They did not find the scathing criticism from him that they hear from Narayana Maharaja.

 

Narayana Maharaja is a severe critic. There is room for everybody in this world. But, many devotee want their icons to be oceans of kindness and mercy.

 

It doesn't take but a couple of severe insults like:

 

Most of his students could not follow him (Srila Prabhupada), and that is why so many fell down even from sannyasa. They made many offenses to him, and they are now burning in hell.

to really hurt a lot of devotess and earn yourself a reputation as a cruel and critical person.

Because, many devotees fell down simply out of weakness of heart as Srila Prabhupada described in his teachings. It does not have to be offense.

 

If you find faith in Narayana Maharaja then that is your right.

 

That doesn't mean that a lot of other devotees aren't going to have plenty of differences with him.

 

Have you ever read the books of Sridhar Maharaja?

[Guest guest]

Namaskar

This is going to be my last post on this topic.

______

 

Kripamoya said:

It's not a mystery that Narayana Maharaja did not understand Srila Prabhupada, though he has talked many times as if he did.

The shastra says that NOBODY can understand the mind of great devotees who are of great spiritual genius.

That includes Narayana Maharaja presuming to understand Srila Prabhupada, when in fact he was very much disconnected with Srila Prabhupada's mission during it's entire time.

Narayana Maharaja is a great Vaishnava of his own tattva.

His presuming to have understood Srila Prabhupada was probably a mistake.

 

Myrla says: Except for sentence 2, all are your opinions and funnily enough your presumptions. Our dearest Srila Prabhupad requested that SNM fix his Samadhi arrangement, right? So there must be a little shred of understanding between the two, OK?

 

Kripamoya said :Many followers and admirers of Srila Prabhupada have come accross plenty of criticism of Srila Prabhupada and the entire Saraswata parivar, yet they continue undaunted in their faith.

 

Myrla says: Definitely not with SNM’s followers. I, for one, still recite my “Nama om Vishnu padaya Krishna presthaya bhutale Srimate Bhaktivedanta Swami iti namine” after I have recited my respects to SNM , everyday when I chant on my mala.

They’re mostly lovers of SP . And I emphasize mostly, I can not guarantee 100%. They moved out of association with other devotees because , I will say this in general and quite simply, the management of the other institution needs to do some reforming in some aspects. I repeat in some aspects. I do not undermine the great service the whole community of devotees that worked with the institution called ISKCON . I wish them all well. I was a part of it. In 1979, I lived in the ashram in the Philippines, woke up at 4:00 am got on the bus with the other devotees to attend mangal artik, did street sankirtan, went to offices. And I will humbly tell you this, if I ate the nice Prasad of crackwheat porridge with banana pieces after a whole day’s book sankirtan on the street outside a university campus, I felt guilty, not bec of eating the Prasad but because I felt that my service was not enough, that I was a burden to the institution that did not have that much resources and I have not collected enough money to contribute for my maintenance in the ashram.

 

 

Kripamoya said:You have to become callous to all these things if you want to be a part of the internet community and all the topics, issues and discussions that take place.

 

Myrla says: You hit the nail right on the head. We are all trying to be Vaishnavas but some, again, some, have questionable attitude – posting under the mask of guest. Even in the karmi environment people that do that have proved to be irresponsible people. Transparent people are more responsible, from experience. I sometimes wonder why many of us are so afraid of each other.

 

Kripamoya said:

Narayana Maharaja is not a carbon copy of Srila Prabhupada. He doesn't have to be. Neither do all the followers of Srila Prabhupada have to find a lot of love and appreciation for Narayana Maharaja.

Narayana Maharaja has spoken very harshly about many followers of Srila Prabhupada who fell away and could not keep up the Vaishnava principles.

Surely, he shouldn't expect then to have a whole lot of appreciation from them.

He is generally very critical of all the devotees who have not accepted him as siksha guru in the absence of Srila Prabhupada.

Surely, he can't expect a whole lot of love and affection from them.

 

Myrla says: My father sometimes says harsh words to me to get his message across to me.

I still love him. I am a voracious reader of Vaishna sites, everday, his admonitions in the past that I have read, were not that “killer”. –that’s just word play, ok. If you are honest, you would know the answer to your suppositions. The angle of politics can not be ruled out also that was why some did not even try to listen and “feel: his personality. Ok, let’s go to statistics. The fell down was a high rate! ! I’d like to say, that I still have high respects for all devotees that work for the service of SP; they are inspirations to me, that is why I am still chanting on my japa after all these years, I just can’t shake this attraction for that dark blue handsome guy and that golden goddess with Him.

 

Kripamoya said: Many devotees found Sridhar Maharaja to be an ocean of mercy and kindness in the absence of Srila Prabhupada. They did not find the scathing criticism from him that they hear from Narayana Maharaja.

 

Myrla says: I definitely agree. I love reading his realizations and I try to understand them, with my trying to be humble mind and heart in conjunction with what my guru says.

 

Kripamoya said: Narayana Maharaja is a severe critic. There is room for everybody in this world. But, many devotee want their icons to be oceans of kindness and mercy.

 

Myrla says: As you mentioned above “The shastra says that NOBODY can understand the mind of great devotees who are of great spiritual genius.” So we better shut up then. Our Srila Prabhupad had also some thoughts about some of his godbrothers too. Don’t be so naïve. I think , a rtvik site is fond of plastering them on their site to frighthen people away.

 

 

Kripamoya das said: It doesn't take but a couple of severe insults like:

 

Quote:

Most of his students could not follow him (Srila Prabhupada), and that is why so many fell down even from sannyasa. They made many offenses to him, and they are now burning in hell.

 

to really hurt a lot of devotess and earn yourself a reputation as a cruel and critical person.

Because, many devotees fell down simply out of weakness of heart as Srila Prabhupada described in his teachings. It does not have to be offense.

 

Myrla says: SNM’s first language is not English, ok? You obviously you have read scriptures in the past. Though hell is a Christian concept. Our literatures would have those type of way of saying things.

 

Kripamoya said: If you find faith in Narayana Maharaja then that is your right.

That doesn't mean that a lot of other devotees aren't going to have plenty of differences with him.

Have you ever read the books of Sridhar Maharaja?

 

Myrla says: I believe that, whoever moves our hearts, go to that person. I am lucky to have the mercy of a great Vaishnava.. However, I do not start dissecting/ cutting into bits and finding all sorts of wrong in any Vaishnava especially in public. Our bhajans are not enough , why do we have time for all of these? Only one book of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Sri Guru and His Grace and a few of his writing in a website. BTW, Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that a real Vaishnava is someone who when he/she sees a Vaishnava greater than him in all respects will direct the devotees to that personality. I am seeing very short of that lately. Babhru das is one exception. He knows where he stands.

 

Radhe Radhe

 

Myrla

Melbourne

[raga]

 

Let me just ask questions. The first one being, "who are the babajis who are saying the things that have been quoted." If that is not clarified, one runs the risk of attacking mirages. There is enough negative feeling in this world even without imagining more, even if some might justify that as a matter of generating chivalrous team spirit among his group of devotees. That generally just leads to aparadha.

 

 

Myrla says: With due respect, my friend, With that Babaji talk, the import of the talk was the Sahajiya concept, not about any Babaji Guru. Do you think that when he talks about a particular Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy for ex., which could be construed as in opposition to another faith (not Gaudiya Vaishnava), do you see the need for him to identify the pope or the cleric for example. Also he may not even know the names of the people specifically. (BTW, about paypal, it could be because of my new bank a/c added to paypal, which takes about 2 days for security reasons to be in operation. I have not forgotten., ok)

Myrla, that's all fine - but please see how this speech from Srila Narayana Maharaja is being employed. Regardless of original intent, this very speech has often been employed to bash a particular Babaji Guru (most notably, Sri Ananta Das Babaji). Therefore I asked Puru for clarification on whom the points he mentions refer to. One's guru's comments on a sensitive issue need to be cited responsibly and with a clear understanding of their intent.

[vijay]

 

Our dearest Srila Prabhupad requested that SNM fix his Samadhi arrangement, right? So there must be a little shred of understanding between the two, OK?

 

It would be fine if SNM only claimed to have little shred of understanding of prabhupada, but instead he claims to be his successor and on many occassions has claimed to know him better than anyone, for for prabhupadas disciple to advance they should come to him etc etc, even though he says alot of differing things to prabhupada. Im sure most people wouldnt scrutinize him if he didnt make such claims and admitted he differs in some points like other god brothers have done.

[Guest guest]

Well put Vijay,

 

The best defense is a good offense. And a good offense is a lack of it.

 

If Narayana Maharaja has inspired someone to investigate Bhakti Yoga that is a good thing.

 

But anyone so inspired who then decides to put Narayana Maharaja on an absolute platform as someone to rule over their spiritual life has taken a stance that they now find has consequences.

 

As all which is pointed out regarding him is true according to his very words.

 

And as has been pointed out will continue to be commented on and brought to light in a pointed way as these words have the potential to confuse others and detract from the Glories of another Great Devotee.

 

Then a disciple of Narayana Maharaja who is surrendered so much to be put into great anxiety when TRUTH is spoken about their Guru is in an unfortunate but real postion.

 

Would someone worthy of entrusting your entire prospect of Spiritual advancement to the highest levels still be makiing such mistakes?

 

Is it possible that this Guru can just be a devotee more advanced then them, but not who they are claiming to be.

 

This would be terrible if not for the FACT that a specially empowered Shakta - Avesha Avatar and Jagat Guru can still be taken shelter of. Who is available through the compilation of his Books and Life teachings, and through his mature disciples wherever they may be found.

 

And by accepting Srila Prabhupada as their next step for higher shelter, they will not have to worry about having to defend against other people's criticism of him, because all such criticism is easily proved to be made in error, for he was a pure, kind, and fautless representative of the Sweet Lord, the well wisher of all, and even his chastisements were always proven to be RIGHT ON THE MONEY and well justified.

 

So why spend one's life needing to defend the indefensible when one can take shelter of one who's defense is made easy due to his perfect lack of offense?

 

Please consider this Myrna and others, and protect yourselves from offense. You are an innocent eternal individual and deserve the best.

 

Jaya Prabhupada Hare Krsna

[raga]

 

"First of all they don't accept that the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is one of the sakhas, branches, of the Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya, although this fact has been clearly explained by Sri Kavi Karnipura, Srila Jiva Gosvami, and then by Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu. It has also been explained by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, by my Gurudeva, that is, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and also by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

 

Secondly, they think that Sri Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati are the same person, although there is so much difference between them. This cannot be so. Will a person of the Ramanuja Sampradaya go down to become a Mayavadi like Prakasananda Sarasvati, and then again become Prabhodananda Sarasvati, who was so exalted that he became the guru of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami? This idea is absurd. Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati were contemporaries. Will the same person go back and forth, being a Vaisnava in South India, then becoming a Mayavadi, again becoming a Vaisnava in Vrndavana, and again becoming a Mayavadi? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has vividly written about this, and great historians and research scholars have also rejected the idea that they are the same person.

 

Thirdly, they don’t give proper honor to Sri Jiva Gosvami, and this is a very big blunder. This is a vital point. They say that Jiva Gosvami is of svakiya-bhava, that he never supported parakiya-bhava, and that he is against parakiya-bhava. They say that in his explanations of Srimad Bhagavatam and Brahma-samhita, in his own books like Gopala Campu, and especially in his Sri Ujjvala-nilamani tika, he has written against parakiya-bhava. This is their greatest blunder. We don’t accept their statements at all."

 

an excerpt from the beginning of the article

Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis

Read the entire thing and then your question is answered.

Puru and I exchanged some PMs over this, and he didn't feel inclined to discuss this much further in a public forum. While I am also not too inclined to enter into extended debates over these three points, I do feel that it is in the best interest of everyone if the object of this boycott is identified.

 

Puru did not have names at hand, though he said he'd get back to me if he got around to clarifying this with Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

In the meantime, I'll want to at least clear the innocent and note that those whom I know do not to two of those three points, and the one is not their own view, but a view centuries old. I am adapting from what I wrote to him in a private message.

 

--

 

As you know, I am rather familiar with the scenario at Radha-kunda and the ideas people have. You may also know that there is no unified school called "Radha-kunda babajis" as such, and that there is a good diversity of views among the people there.

The three points you have presented are:

1. Gaudiya Vaisnavas are not connected with the Madhva-sampradaya.

2. Prabodhananda and Prakasananda are the same person.

3. Jiva Gosvami is a svakiya-vadi.

Commenting on those:

1. Many guru-pranali documents, including mine, feature the verses from Baladeva's Prameya-ratnavali that delineate the succession from Madhva downwards.

2. This is presented in Sri Ananta Das Babaji's preface to his edition of Radha-rasa-sudha-nidhi. The idea itself is not exclusive to Radha-kunda babajis -- it dates to at least as early as the early 1700's and Anandi's commentary on Prabodhananda's Caitanya-candramrita.

3. I doubt that you will find a single pandit at Radha-kunda who will agree on this.

As for the idea being specific to Radha-kunda and not Govardhana, I am also somewhat familiar with the tradition of babajis at Govardhana, and I can assure you that the differences between the views of the two are rather minimal, and indeed the "prominent" disagreements over the last half a century or so seem to have been over the specifics of calendar calculations.

 

--

 

I hope this clears the situation at least as far as Ananta Das Babaji, who is the only author from Radha-kunda whose works have been published in English in any substantial scale, is concerned.

[Kripamoya]

In the writings of Narayana Maharaja he says:

 

What is that siddha-deha? In this fifth stage, the devotee may

not see it vividly, but he can realise it to some extent by the

grace of his Gurudeva. “This is my original spiritual form,

this is my name, this is my eternal service,“ and so on. Some

people deny that we should follow this process: “Oh, my Guru

Maharaja told me that we should stay as we are, and continue

doing book distribution and our other services. We

shouldn’t bother ourselves about siddha-svarupa, and bhava

and prema.“ This denial is completely against Gaudiya

Vaisnava siddhanta. if someone thinks in this way, and does

not try to attain the perfectional stage, then he is not following

the process of bhakti as Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has

presented it.

did Srila Prabhupada really preach to his disciples in the way the devotee in this incident supposedly expressed to Narayan Maharaja?

[Guest guest]

“Oh, my Guru

Maharaja told me that we should stay as we are, and continue

doing book distribution and our other services. We

shouldn’t bother ourselves about siddha-svarupa, and bhava

and prema.“

 

Naryana Maharaja was probably just repeating what one of Srila Prabhupada's told him.

 

This disciple was probably ambitious and disgruntled.

 

The statement from Srila Prabhupada in reality was probably something like this, at least in its essential implication.

 

Hippy disciple who has been chanting for 6 months and used get drunk and stoned and eat meat every day for 21 years asks

 

"Srila Prabhupada what is my eternal swarupa, when are you going to reveal my siddha deha?" Am I exhibiting symptoms of my bhava yet?

 

Srila Prabhupada replys: "Just concentrate on your service, reading and distributing the books. Do not bother YOURSELF with such questions at this time. All these things will be revealed in time."

 

Srila Prabhupada, on the authority of Jiva Goswami flatly condemns the "siddha pranali process" as he states below.

 

He lalso states below, "That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master."

 

And that siddha swarupa "BECOMES MANIFEST" and we realize these things AUTOMATICALLY when we are perfect in our spiritual life.

 

NoD 16

THE SIDDHA-PRANALI PROCESS IS FOLLOWED BY A CLASS OF MEN WHO ARE NOT VERY AUTHORIZED AND WHO HAVE MANUFACTURED THEIR OWN WAY OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. THEY IMAGINE THAT THEY HAVE BECOME ASSOCIATES OF THE LORD SIMPLY BY THINKING OF THEMSELVES LIKE THAT. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranali process is followed by the prakrta-sahajiya, a pseudosect of so-called Vaisnavas. In the opinion of Rupa Gosvami, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service. SRI RUPA GOSVAMI SAYS THAT LEARNED ACARYAS RECOMMEND THAT WE FOLLOW THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES EVEN AFTER THE DEVELOPMENT OF SPONTANEOUS LOVE FOR KRSNA.

 

Raga-marga is not artificial. It becomes, svayam eva sphuratyadhah. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau... Everything, devotional relationship with Krishna, you cannot establish artificially. Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. So svarupa-siddhi is attained at a certain stage. Just like svarupa-siddhi... The desire for sex life is there in every human being, but when the boy and girl come to the mature stage, it becomes manifest. It is... is not learned artificially. Similarly, the raga-marga, svarupa-siddhi, becomes revealed or manifest.

 

"Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi. You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a... Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--...That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi. So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Hare Krsna

[Kripamoya]

I have heard a quote that is said to come from Gaura Kishor Babaji:

 

"Nowadays we see that in the name of being a rasika Vaishnava, one climbs a tower (devotional fame) to the amazement of all, but then, in full view of everyone, to their dismay and disgust, passes stool from that lofty height."

 

Sounds like Gaura Kishor babaji was not very impressed with some of the rasika vaishnavas around Vrindavan at that time.

[Guest guest]

Here is what Srila Bhakitrakshak Sridhar Maharaj had to say about "Siddha Pranali"

 

It will come in individual case and it will awaken in an irresistible way. When the program of the sadhana stage is finished, it will come automatically, spontaneously. We are believers in that. Not to know the form already and then we will reach there; that is not the policy accepted by Guru Maharaja, Prabhupada [bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur] pujala raga patha gaurava bhange [raga marga, higher rasa, should always be kept over our head as worshipable; we are to serve the higher plane, not to try and enter there or to bring it down to this plane; we should always stay one step lower; if we try to look direct, it will vanish. Bhaktivinode Thakur also said, stick to the rulings of the class you are fit for, then you will see automatically:

 

yatha yatha gaura-padaravinde

vindeta bhaktim krta-punya-rasih

tatha tathotsarpati hrdy akasmad

radha-padambhoja-sudhambu-rasih

 

Strictly stick to gaura-lila, Mahaprabhu, and you will find automatically within your heart that radha rasa sudha nidhi is flowing. Don't attempt to have it direct: ihan mali sece nitya sravanadi jala; it will come automatically, spontaneously; it should not be approached intellectually. That will create a bad prejudice. Not only that but, such a harmful prejudice, you will have to spend more energy to do away with that layer of misunderstanding.

 

So our Prabhupada did not allow these things. Do your duty in your plane what you deserve will come naturally. That is his instruction, all through, not only temporarily, but throughout, don't be a disbeliever, very eager to see the final result. Don't do like that. You will get maya instead of yogamaya. He knows it fully well. She knows it fully well; when you are to be taken in to confidence, taken in to the confidential area and that cannot be acquired by any thing other than His sweet will or the flow of Her sweet will. Try to have the natural thing, not any thing of imitation or any reflection.

[raga]

 

Srila Prabhupada, on the authority of Jiva Goswami flatly condemns the "siddha pranali process" as he states below.

Can you please quote what Jiva Gosvami says on siddha-pranali? I didn't notice him mentioned anywhere.

 

Sridhar Maharaja doesn't seem to say anything about siddha-pranali there.

 

The basic concept of siddha-pranali is discussed for example in Bhaktivinoda Thakur's Harinama-cintamani, chapter 15 entitled "bhajan-pranali", dealing with the guru's describing the disciple's svarupa among other themes.

[Kripamoya]

I found another curious statement by Narayana Maharaja in one of his books:

 

 

If someone who is not free from anarthas comes to me, it would

be absurd to reveal his siddha-svarupa, or siddha-deha (spiritual

body). That is sahajiya.

 

Does that mean that if someone who is freed from anarthas comes to him that he would reveal his siddha-deha?

[Kripamoya]

In a lecture to a large gathering of devotees in Murwillumbah, Australia (2005), older and newer, Narayana Maharaja said:

 

 

By constitution, a jiva who has a relationship with Krsna in madhurya rasa has the eligibility only for this manjari-bhava.

 

You should think that practically all those in this audience, those of you who are hearing of manjari-bhava, have that bhava in your constitution. You should think that those who are attracted to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are very fortunate. Those who have come to His line have done so because of Srila Rupa Gosvami, and Rupa Gosvami is internally Rupa Manjari.

 

So, Narayana Maharaja is telling everyone, even the outsiders who came to hear him that they have manjari-bhava in their constitution and should think of themselves in that way.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, that is RUPA GOSWAMI

 

From "Nectar of Devotion" chapter 16 Eligibility for Spontaneous Devotional Service:

 

n this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranali. The siddha-pranali process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranali process is followed by the prakrta-sahajiya, a pseudosect of so-called Vaisnavas. In the opinion of Rupa Gosvami, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service. Sri Rupa Gosvami says that learned acaryas recommend that we follow the regulative principles even after the development of spontaneous love for Krsna.

[Guest guest]

"Sridhar Maharaja doesn't seem to say anything about siddha-pranali there."

 

I must admit that he doesn't directly.

 

He is obviously implying the same thing that Srila Prabhupada does when he speaks of the "SO CALLED" Siddha Pranali process.

 

There are extremely important and detailed prerequisites for entering the real process of siddha Pranali, as it is THE highest practice, including the prerequisite that one find someone who actually knows these things about one's heretofore unrealized identity in conjugal rasa.

 

Thus the prudent use of qualifying terms such as "so called" to steer us all from the gazillion prakrita sahajya charlatans out there.

 

So anyone touting this process as viable and actionable, and not just arguing that Srila Bhaktivinode explains it, which he did, best make sure they can guide someone to the real deal, because otherwise, and you can quote me on this, Yamaraja has a special place reserved for such person's pennance.

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda's Harinam Cintamani (Ch. 15):

Sadhana of the Rasa

The sadhana (practice) of rasa and the siddhi (perfection) lie very close together. Very soon, by sadhana of the rasa, one will attain ones spiritual body. By the mercy of Radha one receives the mercy of Krsna, and thus quickly ones material body will dissolve and one will attain pure spiritual body in Vraja.

There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna. Cultivating the loving relation in conjugal rasa (srngara rasa), called the ujjvala rasa, is the highest practice, by which one will experience full Krsna prema.

In order to perfect the experience in conjugal rasa one must accept a body of a gopi. A jiva thinking himself a male cannot enter the srngara rasa. To receive a spiritual body in conjugal rasa one must internally cultivate eleven specific items of ones identity: ones relationship, ones age, name, form membership in a particular group (yutha), dress, ones order, service, highest aspiration and palya dasa bhava.

These items are perfected through practice in five stages: sravana dasa, varana dasa, smarana dasa, apana dasa and sampati dasa.

Sravana Dasa, the stage of hearing

Hearing the pastimes of Krsna, one develops an attraction for them. One then approaches a guru who has realized Krsna’s eternal pastimes and the eleven items in eternal service. From the guru, the devotee hears (sravana) the intricacies of the rasas (bhava tattva), which consists of the pastimes and the eleven elements of identity. On hearing the eight fold pastimes, the person will develop eagerness and inquire from the guru how to enter into those pastimes.

Varana Dasa, the stage of accepting

The guru, after perceiving the nature of the person, will then describe to him the eleven elements of his identity. He will give him his name, form, qualities and service, and his part in the pastimes, and tell him to enter into the pastimes.

If the disciple finds that his natural taste coincides with this identity, he should approach the guru and inform him that it suits him. He will then vow to cultivate that identity as his life and soul.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

:So, Narayana Maharaja is telling everyone, even the outsiders who came to hear him that they have manjari-bhava in their constitution and should think of themselves in that way.

 

The current situation is that the conceptions of madhurya rasa, gopi bhava and manjari bhava are being ignored, covered and obscured by those who unconciously hate these concepts. It is almost like they are overtly and covertly on a campaign to attempt to "hurl down to Vaikuntha" the entire Gaudiya Sampradaya. The technique is to often quote Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja out of context. If someone is going too fast they may be advised to use they're brakes, but this does not mean the object of the automobile trip is to stop forward progress. Sometimes in an emergency situation, extreme and revolutionary measures may be taken and this is up to the discretion and inspiration of an acarya. Srila Narayana Maharaja always tempers this by admonishing us beginnners by often saying, "don't jump". He is saying that we must know the goal but not to artificially "jump" to a level that is light years away. I'm including the following exerpt from a lecture because manjari bhava or sva-bhakti sriyam is the "aim and object" of the devotional life of most followers of Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Goswami. The question as to what stage to hear Tenth Canto is basically dealing with the same issue.

 

<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P>The following is an excerpt from a lecture given by Srila Narayana Maharaja in <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST2 /><ST2:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"><ST2:PLACE u1:st="on">Wales</ST2:PLACE></ST2:COUNTRY-REGION>, in July of 2000:<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

"There are four ways to tell others not to read Tenth Canto. The first is in ignorance. Elevated and high-class devotees know all the reasons why <ST2:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:GIVENNAME u1:st="on">Caitanya</ST1:GIVENNAME> <ST1:SN u1:st="on">Mahaprabhu</ST1:SN></ST2:PERSONNAME> descended to this world. Do you know why He came? If you are not reading and hearing the Tenth Canto Srimad-Bhagavatam you cannot know. You will be cheated of this knowledge. So you should try to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from elevated Vaisnavas. Do not think, as some devotees may tell you, that we should not read the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

"Good devotees know everything, and they may tell you in the second way: 'You should begin from the First Canto, then the Second, the Third, Fourth, Fifth, and thus you can go there.'

"The third way is to cleverly create curiosity. How will they do so? They will say: 'What is in my hands? Can you tell me what I have in my hands?' Others then become curious to know. If anyone tells you: 'Do not read the Tenth Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam!' this curiosity may come automatically: 'What is there? I should know that!' In order to increase others' curiosity to hear and read Srimad-Bhagavatam, devotees speak like this.

"In the fourth way the speaker is speaking exactly the opposite of what he means. When Srila Rupa Gosvami writes, 'Don't go to the banks of the Jamuna where Govinda is sweetly playing on His flute, because then you'll forget all about your society, friendship and love,' he means, 'Do go.' For all these reasons, devotees tell these things.<O:P></O:P>

"There was a devotee in my village who used to go to the <ST2:PLACE u1:st="on">Ganges</ST2:PLACE> river to take bath daily. Whenever someone came and called out to him, 'Rama! Rama!' he acted like he was furious. Taking his stick, he looked like he wanted to beat that person. Why did he do so? And why did all the boys from all the villages call out to him in this way? Whenever they said, 'Rama! Rama!' he would pretend to beat them. Why did he do so? In order to make them chant, 'Rama! Rama!' It was a kind of fun for them. <O:P></O:P>

"If anyone is telling that you should not read the Srimad-Bhagavatam, there should be a curiosity to know what is inside: 'There must be some jewel there.' <O:P></O:P>

"Without hearing and reading, especially without hearing the Tenth Canto Srimad-Bhagavatam, you cannot decide the aim and object of your devotional life. On the other hand, by hearing the Tenth Canto, greed may come to attain that object."

[Guest guest]

Dear Shakti fan.

 

That was a very nice excerpt from Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

Where most devotees objections arise is when some unscrupulous person, (not Narayana Prabhu as far as I know in this regard), gives the 11 fold items of Siddha Pranali identity and the instructions for the practise of that highest rasa to devtoees of any level like it is candy.

 

Letting them have a glimpse of the goal is one thing.

 

Giving them instructions beyond their adhikari is spiritually devastating.

 

Hare Krsna