Traditional Gaudiyas and Preaching.....

[Guest guest]

 

Lack of vidhi makes the so-called raganuga little more than the proverbial elephant's bath.

 

 

Elephants aren't stupid.

They do what they do for a scientific reason.

 

An elephant revels in a nice fresh bath in the river, yet when he comes out of the river he knows that a good covering of dirt will protect him from insects that might otherwise annoy him and cause disease.

 

If we really look deeply at the habits of the Elephant, we will find a rhyme

and a reason for his behaviour.

 

Of course, one who is not familiar with Elephant behaviour will be confused.

[stonehearted]

The elephant's bath is a poetic device, and most folks accustomed to vaishnava behavior would not be confused by that. In fact, so much of the literature we study is poetry, and not understanding what that means may confuse the readers. That's one reason we need a guru to help us progress.

 

Raga's point that many of those who call themselves raganugas could use a little vidhi is well made. In fact, when Srila Rupa Goswami discusses the practice of raganuga-bhakti in Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu, you'll find he does so in only three verses, one of which says that experienced practitioners of raganuga-bhakti recommend continuing to follow the angas of vaidhi-bhakti while cultivating raganuga-bhakti.

[Guest guest]

 

The elephant's bath is a poetic device, and most folks accustomed to vaishnava behavior would not be confused by that. In fact, so much of the literature we study is poetry, and not understanding what that means may confuse the readers. That's one reason we need a guru to help us progress.

 

Raga's point that many of those who call themselves raganugas could use a little vidhi is well made. In fact, when Srila Rupa Goswami discusses the practice of raganuga-bhakti in Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu, you'll find he does so in only three verses, one of which says that experienced practitioners of raganuga-bhakti recommend continuing to follow the angas of vaidhi-bhakti while cultivating raganuga-bhakti.

 

That's all good and well, but I don't know why the Elephants have to be ridiculed as stupid when they are simply following their God given instints.

 

Did Srila Rupa Goswami consider the Elephants as stupid?

I doubt it.

Srila Rupa Goswami probably understood Elephants better than we can understand.

 

Lord Krishna says there is no loss or diminution on his path.

 

Did Srila Rupa Goswami not understand that?

[Guest guest]

Raganuga Rupanuga My Oh My

 

Another Sky Pirate hovers in the sky

 

Picking off his prey, one by one

 

Vaidhi Bhakti is useless

 

but I'll show you what's fun

 

Come romp with me and Radhe

 

be spontaneous and free

 

Don't worry about your fortune

 

just offer it to me

 

I'll accept it as dasksina

 

and tuck it under my mat

 

just go on with your service

 

Raganuga's where its at

 

author unknown (circa 2006)

[Guest guest]

 

does he have devotees of all races?

 

to answer my own question (and for those who may view this question with interest):

 

adhikara.com/swamiji.htm

[madhavachari]

 

even though they are forbidden from certain practices, do these branches accept that a member of any race/caste can obtain moksha in this lifetime, IF they truly surrender to Sriman Narayana?

 

Yes they certainly do. Several of the Alwar saints were not brahmanas, but even shudras, for example. And they are adored by all Srivaishnavas.

[raga]

 

I see. That makes sense considering all. Different strokes for different folks as the saying goes.

I have now added some examples of themes Baba Bharati wrote on in his monthly magazine between 1906-1912, may be of interest.

 

http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/Baba_Premananda_Bharati#Light_of_India

[madhavachari]

 

I have now added some examples of themes Baba Bharati wrote on in his monthly magazine between 1906-1912, may be of interest.

 

http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/Baba_Premananda_Bharati#Light_of_India

 

Was Premananda Bharati initiated into any of the lineages from Sri Caitanya´s followers?

[theist]

Thanks raga.

[Vrindavan]

Sorry i am not quite understand the term Traditional GV, any definition and examples

 

and what are non-traditional GV, any definition and examples, thanks for clarify

[raga]

Vrindavan: http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/TGV

[Guest guest]

The orginal question:

 

Have "traditional" Gaudiya Acaryas preached in the West?

 

has not be properly answered.

 

It appears to me that the "traditional" Gaudiya are very much into intellectualism. As the process that they avocate is very technical and bars the majority of the world's population from understanding bhakti never mind the average devotee.

 

Is Mahaprabhu patita pavana or only the saviour of those with a high intellect?

 

There appears to be alot of snobbery on their side.

 

Just my humble opinion....

[raga]

 

The orginal question: Have "traditional" Gaudiya Acaryas preached in the West? has not be properly answered.

The opening question was, "Why haven't they preached in the West?" I answered that in my first post in this thread.

 

On your question above: Off the top of my head, at least the following have visited West in recent decades: Prema-gopala Gosvami, Purusottama Gosvami, Srivatsa Gosvami, Venu-gopala Gosvami, Madrasi Krishna Das Babaji, Sri Krishna Das Gosvami, Satya-narayana Das Babaji.

 

I'm not quite sure I follow your idea on intellectualism and snobbery. Could you please explain what you mean and what that's based on, and also give an idea on what's your exposure to TGV and what's your idea of "the process" that is very technical?

[Kripamoya]

Srila Prabhupada wrote:

 

Now, on the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has been started, and people are benefiting from this movement. Therefore it is now the duty of the leading men of India to consider the importance of this movement and train many Indians to go outside of India to preach this cult. People will accept it, there will be cooperation among the Indian people and among the other people of the world, and the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu will then be fulfilled.

 

so, that includes Narayana Maharaja and all other learned Vaishnavas.

 

ISKCON does not fear or hate other Indians who come to the west to preach.

But, if they come out and start claiming to be the next acharya of ISKCON, then that will not accomplish anything and simply create friction with those that are trying to keep ISKCON afloat, despite all odds and shortcomings.

[theist]

 

 

 

so, that includes Narayana Maharaja and all other learned Vaishnavas.

 

ISKCON does not fear or hate other Indians who come to the west to preach.

But, if they come out and start claiming to be the next acharya of ISKCON, then that will not accomplish anything and simply create friction with those that are trying to keep ISKCON afloat, despite all odds and shortcomings.

 

If I may speak freely without stepping on anyone's toes I must agree this is the source of much of the problem. And as long as there is animosity between followers of Lord Caitanya then there certainly is a problem.

 

Similar with so-called traditonalists. Overt and covert criticism of Srila Prabhupada and his mission is intolerable to anyone that can even glimpse a fragment of his contribution in the service of the Lord. Everyone can take note please and consider this. This also includes those that feign to be his closest and most advanced disciples but are destroying his work from within Iskcon.

 

There is no reason for any camp outside of Iskcon to even be concerned with Iskcon. Just be about your chosen path. If you have chosen a babji lifestyle then emmerse yourself in it. Chanting Hare Krsna all day and living at Radha Kunda is hardly a vice and those that criticize babajis for not preaching to meat eaters and living at Radha Kunda should rethink their position I believe. Likewise anyone who has taken to that babaji lifestyle who criticize great and merciful devotees for taking Krsna to the most fallen souls should rethink their's also. IMO they both should be avoided by anyone trying to cultivate bhakti.

 

In any case is it not hard enough to walk either path without wasting time? Preach or don't preach, we should just concentrate more on our own Krsna consciousness.

[raga]

 

Similar with so-called traditonalists. Overt and covert criticism of Srila Prabhupada and his mission is intolerable to anyone that can even glimpse a fragment of his contribution in the service of the Lord.

The critique sometimes heard is an unfortunate by-product of doctrinal differences. What's seen online in this regard is largely the outcome of people who once were associated with ISKCON and ended up having a bad experience. Sadly, many of them just can't let go of this past "trauma" and keep ruining both their own spiritual lives as well as those of the others by obsessing over critique of others.

 

I like to think I have largely grown over that. I sincerely hope that I have, anyway.

 

 

 

Likewise anyone who has taken to that babaji lifestyle who criticize great and merciful devotees for taking Krsna to the most fallen souls should rethink their's also. IMO they both should be avoided by anyone trying to cultivate bhakti.

I heartily agree with you here. Anyone who thinks that Swami Bhaktivedanta's contribution for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cause was anything short of wonderful surely has a circuit missing.

 

I cannot claim to know what each and every trad. Gaudiya in India, those who don't share a history with IGM, think, but what I know from my experiences with some of them is that while there is certainly awareness of differences, it has not stopped them from thinking fondly of what Swamiji accomplished.

 

And I would also like to see the same fondness extended to Baba Premananda Bharati, who by all counts probably has just as many differences with the mainstream Gaudiya lineages of Vraja that I follow as Swami Bhaktivedanta does.

[Guest guest]

It is unlikely ISKCON would even exist in 60 yrs.

[SishirSaha]

Raga asked if I have any knowledge or familiarity with the philosophy of Jagabandhu. Yes I do. Through my relatives I know what his ideas are. They say he is Mahaprabhu reborn and that you do not have to get diksa initiation from a authentic Guru in parampara. So for us they are like Swaminarayana or Sathya Sai Baba who are also supposed to be an incarnations and teach the Nirakara Brahma has been born as an incarnation. They are mayavadis.

 

This talk about so called traditional gaudiya vaisnavas leaves me a bit puzzled. I am wondering what constitutes a traditional gaudiya vaisnava in your view. My family are from Chittagong in Bangladesh. In Sri Caitanya Caritamrta (Madhya Lila Chapter 7) Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami describes Sri Caitanya's tour of south india. It clearly says there that when Mahaprabhu was in south india he empowered many acaryas who became mahabhagavatas and who later accepted disciples themselves and that those disciples had their second and subsequent generations of their guru parampara. Their guru parampara came from Mahaprabhu directly. In their guru parampara they received the Harinama mantra and then they gave the Harinama mantra and Krsna Consciousness -- worship of Krsna and not Narayana - to their followers and disciples. They did not get given the diksa mantras which old devotees in Bengal have given to their disciples. In East Bengal there are also many devotees who receive the Hare Krsna mantra when they become initiated into the sampraday. From Caitanya Caritamrta we can see that receiving Harinama mahamantra was practiced in the time of Mahaprabhu but we find in Bengal some high caste individuals make many claims about how we need to get the diksa mantras from some high caste guru who is in the family of Nityananda. But in our ISKCON we also think of Harinama as initiatino and that idea is supported in Caitanya Caritamrta. So what do you have to say to that?

[theist]

 

The critique sometimes heard is an unfortunate by-product of doctrinal differences. What's seen online in this regard is largely the outcome of people who once were associated with ISKCON and ended up having a bad experience. Sadly, many of them just can't let go of this past "trauma" and keep ruining both their own spiritual lives as well as those of the others by obsessing over critique of others.

 

I like to think I have largely grown over that. I sincerely hope that I have, anyway.

 

Raga, I have never gotten that from you. I only know you from these forums of course. I have thought that the fact that you haven't engaged in criticism of Srila Prabhupada and obsessed on any unfortunate experiences in Iskcon that perhaps you never were a member of that organization.

 

One thing I appreciate about Krsna consciousness is how there is room for such a variety of approachs with Krsna seemingly blessing them all. I am not the one to understand the finer points of doctrinal differences between these approachs. In that my lack of intelligence may be a asset. I can however appreciate that all are chanting the Lord's name. And as that is THE process for this age I figure Krsna will take care of any remaining details without me butting in.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Sanatana Dharma is the heritage of all mankind. And Lord Krishna spoke the Bhagavad Gita to all incarnated jivas. This was not a private dialogue for people in India.

 

It is the mission of enlightened beings, to act as Bodhisattvas, and help those suffering in Samsara, no matter where in the world they are born.

 

A KC Bodhisattva should go out and spread the knowledge of Self-Realization and God consciousness, to all races and lands, where jivas need this message. To hide in India, and only worry about your tribal community, is not helping the billions of non-indians in the world, who know little to nothing about Sanatana Dharma, and have never even had the pleasure of reading the Bhagavad Gita, where God has spoken directly to them.

[raga]

 

Raga asked if I have any knowledge or familiarity with the philosophy of Jagabandhu. Yes I do. Through my relatives I know what his ideas are. They say he is Mahaprabhu reborn and that you do not have to get diksa initiation from a authentic Guru in parampara. So for us they are like Swaminarayana or Sathya Sai Baba who are also supposed to be an incarnations and teach the Nirakara Brahma has been born as an incarnation. They are mayavadis.

Thank you for responding to this.

 

There are two passages in Caitanya-bhagavata that speak of Mahaprabhu's descending again to this world, or that may be read to mean that. (hena-mate Ara Ache dui avatAra - 2.26.11 / Aro dui janma ei saGkIrtanArambhe - 2.26.46). Of that, there are diverging interpretations.

 

There is also precedent for this. Prema-vilasa of Nityananda Das, Jahnava's disciple, notes that Srinivasa, Narottama and Syamananda were the new comings of Caitanya, Nityananda and Advaita respectively. Advaita-prakasa speaks of Raghunandana Gosvami, grand-son of Advaita Prabhu, as a new descent of Caitanya's - this is said to be Mahaprabhu's own benediction to Advaita.

 

Then, regardless of how much we may disagree on the view of Jagadbandhu's followers over his being an avatara of Gauranga, it is not justified to call them mayavadis on account of that. They do not, to the best of my understanding, present any monistic conclusions or present Jagadbandhu as an avatar of nirakara-brahma.

 

 

 

 

This talk about so called traditional gaudiya vaisnavas leaves me a bit puzzled. I am wondering what constitutes a traditional gaudiya vaisnava in your view. My family are from Chittagong in Bangladesh.

Did you read the page I referred everyone to?

 

 

 

In Sri Caitanya Caritamrta (Madhya Lila Chapter 7) Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami describes Sri Caitanya's tour of south india. It clearly says there that when Mahaprabhu was in south india he empowered many acaryas who became mahabhagavatas and who later accepted disciples themselves and that those disciples had their second and subsequent generations of their guru parampara. Their guru parampara came from Mahaprabhu directly. In their guru parampara they received the Harinama mantra and then they gave the Harinama mantra and Krsna Consciousness -- worship of Krsna and not Narayana - to their followers and disciples.

I would be interested to hear something specific on those traditions, how did they evolve and where they are today.

 

 

They did not get given the diksa mantras which old devotees in Bengal have given to their disciples. In East Bengal there are also many devotees who receive the Hare Krsna mantra when they become initiated into the sampraday. From Caitanya Caritamrta we can see that receiving Harinama mahamantra was practiced in the time of Mahaprabhu but we find in Bengal some high caste individuals make many claims about how we need to get the diksa mantras from some high caste guru who is in the family of Nityananda. But in our ISKCON we also think of Harinama as initiatino and that idea is supported in Caitanya Caritamrta. So what do you have to say to that?

I am not that familiar with rural traditions in Bangladesh. There are a great many traditions out there, and not all of them are necessarily very orthodox in their praxis.

 

Regardless of from whom diksa is to be received, the undisputable conclusion of Hari-bhakti-vilasa and Bhakti-sandarbha is that diksa-mantras must be received, and as much is said (and quoted) in Swami Bhaktivedanta's works. Harinama is certainly also an initiation, but let us be clear over the fact that the term "diksa" indicates the reception of an actual diksa-mantra, characterized by mantra-bija, a name of god in the dative case and the end-incantation. If you wish, I'll be happy to present to you the actual passages from the writings of the Gosvamis where all of this is explained.

[Guest guest]

raga do you think Mahaprabhu gave diksa to the people who he met in south india who became mahabhagavatas?

[raga]

 

raga do you think Mahaprabhu gave diksa to the people who he met in south india who became mahabhagavatas?

I'm quite sure he didn't, but he told the Gosvamis to write books that would describe how the tradition would go on after him -- you can read about that in Caitanya-caritamrita towards the end of Madhya-lila.

[Guest guest]

So are those paramparas of the mahabhagavatas in south india who were empowered by Mahaprabhu not part of "the tradition"?

[raga]

 

So are those paramparas of the mahabhagavatas in south india who were empowered by Mahaprabhu not part of "the tradition"?

 

To quote myself from the previous post:

 

 

I would be interested to hear something specific on those traditions, how did they evolve and where they are today.

I would need to know that before I can say anything educated on this.

 

"The tradition" as I use it largely means "tradition that follows the Gosvamis". The famous Kheturi meeting, attended by the prominent Gaudiya branches in Navadvipa, was pivotal in establishing the doctrines established in the writings of the Gosvamis as the theological back-bone of the tradition. I don't know if there were any followers of Mahaprabhu from South India attending, it isn't mentioned in any narrations describing the event.