Traditional Gaudiyas and Preaching.....

[raga]

Haven't had the time to compile yet - I'll start a new thread whenever I get around to that.

[Guest guest]

I think all the comments about pairing down Krishna-consciousness from all its "hindu rituals" are rather snobby and uncalled for personally. It's one thing to say that the ritual is not always needed in exceptional cases; it's another thing to actively dismiss it.

 

Ritual is an expression of inner spiritual meaning. It always has been for centuries. People who brag about not needing ritual because they understand the "essence" usually don't understand the "essence" and just end up replacing the ritual with other concrete forms of sense gratification.

 

I also know many iskcon devotees who talk like this, very proudly in fact. They act like they are quite enlightened because they don't need "all those rituals." Yet they all watch TV, go see movies, play video games, eat at restaraunts (not iskcon), etc. What is better for their spiritual life - pairing down rituals so they have time to watch TV, or sticking with the ritual so that their senses have a higher engagement?

 

There are exceptional people - paramahamsas, who can dispense with all formalities of religious processes and still remain quite equipoised. The Bhagavata speaks of many such people - Maharaja Yudhishthira (at the end of his life), Shukadeva, Shiva, etc etc. Many Vaishnava paramparas also seem to have a few individuals who do not always follow the ritual. Chaitanya never gave diksha to Rupa or Santana, but no one would deny that Rupa and Sanatana are his disciples.

 

On the other hand, I am less sure that many of these folks who brag about dispensing with their "Hinduness" are even remotely on the same level, for reasons I have already mentioned.

 

Please note that I am not an iskcon follower, nor a follower of some other traditional gaudiya guru. I'm just an outsider looking in and commenting on a certain attitude that comes across as pretty arrogant.

[theist]

Guest # 74. You seem to have missed the point of thread. This is about spreading the chanting of the holy name to world wide peoples and cultures in a way that is most easily acceptable to them. Just because something has been done a certain way for hundreds of years in India does not mean that is the only way it can be done.

 

How many people will take to wearing a dhoti and sporting a sikha and tilak in todays world and times? I felt strange in New Delhi when I noticed I was the only one around wearing a kurta while everyone else looked liked they just stepped out of Macy's.

 

The holy name is where the potency is. Indian culture is nice and attractive but do you think it is transplantable as is in the west.

 

Calling others here snobs for saying such things may just be you revealing your own snobbery.

 

Chill out bro.

[Guest guest]

Our process is to show Krishna Consciousness as it is, not as others want to see it. By showing KC in this way, you are making the thing less important. It is not that we should change to accommodate the public, but that we shoud change the public to accommodate us." His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Bombay 28 December, 1971

 

Brooklyn

 

My dear Yogesvara,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge your letter of 17 December, 1971, along with copies of your advertising work, slides, and Dutch BTG. I am very pleased to see that the foreign literature is being produced nicely under your enthusiastic supervision. Just try to increase more and more our output of such books and magazines in many languages-- otherwise how will preaching go on in these places? Though we have been settled in European countries for many years now, only now you are printing the first book in French language, and there is only one book done in German language. So the record has not been good, therefore our preaching work in these countries has not been going very well, and I think now things are not going too well in France and Germany centers. So if somehow or other you can produce profuse books for these places, spend your all time translating, organizing, printing and distributing such books in foreign languages, then I think you will be able to improve the situation there. If there are amply books, everything else will succeed. Practically our Society is built on books. One book is not very impressive. Still, a blind uncle is better than no uncle at all, so it is very nice that one book has appeared, and that BTG is appearing at least several issues in other languages. But now try to produce at least four or five new books per year in several languages, plus regularly BTG every month. That will be your success. You are very sincere and hard-working boy--now just take good direction from your senior godbrothers and apply yourself fully to this very great responsibility of producing numerous books in foreign languages.

 

I don't think there is need to divert your attention by producing advertising. I have seen your advertisements as shown to me by Syamasundara., and I think you have made the thing less important. This kind of ad is not good, it is not grave. Our process is to show Krishna Consciousness as it is, not as others want to see it. By showing KC in this way, you are making the thing less important. It is not that we should change to accommodate the public, but that we shoud change the public to accommodate us. Better you devote your full time to one thing only, not many things. That way your enthusiasm and talents will have big effect by being concentrated. Therefore, kindly concentrate for producing books and magazines in European languages, as many as possible, and make this your life work. These books are the best advertising, they are better than advertising. If we simply present Krishna Consciousness in a serious and attractive way, without need to resort to fashionable slogans or tricks, that is sufficient. Our unique asset is our purity. No one any where can match it. That will be noticed eventually and appreciated, as long as we do not diminish or neglect the highest standard of purity in performing our routine work, not that we require to display or announce ourselves in very clever ways to get attention. No, our pure standard is enough. Let us stand on that basis.

 

I hope this will meet you in good health and lively mood.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

ACBS.sda

 

[71-12-28]

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[theist]

I wonder what the ad that was been talked about by Srila Prabhupada was? I guess we will never know.

 

It is interesting to note that just the act of translating a book from Sanskrit to English, French , German etc is itself a culture adaptation and not really a change in siddhanta at all. So we must be careful that we don't extrapolate too much on this talk concerning an ad. It would be helpful if we had the ad itself perhaps but we don't.

 

 

These books are the best advertising, they are better than advertising. If we simply present Krishna Consciousness in a serious and attractive way, without need to resort to fashionable slogans or tricks, that is sufficient. Our unique asset is our purity. No one any where can match it. That will be noticed eventually and appreciated, as long as we do not diminish or neglect the highest standard of purity in performing our routine work, not that we require to display or announce ourselves in very clever ways to get attention. No, our pure standard is enough. Let us stand on that basis.

[Guest guest]

 

Guest # 74. You seem to have missed the point of thread. This is about spreading the chanting of the holy name to world wide peoples and cultures in a way that is most easily acceptable to them. Just because something has been done a certain way for hundreds of years in India does not mean that is the only way it can be done.

 

How many people will take to wearing a dhoti and sporting a sikha and tilak in todays world and times? I felt strange in New Delhi when I noticed I was the only one around wearing a kurta while everyone else looked liked they just stepped out of Macy's.

 

The holy name is where the potency is. Indian culture is nice and attractive but do you think it is transplantable as is in the west.

 

Calling others here snobs for saying such things may just be you revealing your own snobbery.

 

Chill out bro.

 

And this is precisely the sort of attitude that I am referring to - the attempt to label such things as wearing of dhoti as "Indian culture" when in fact they are Vedic culture. No discussion on facts or evidence. Just hand-waving and white-washing of truth in true ISKCON style. And that too from someone who isn't an ISKCON devotee. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

 

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly translated many Sanskrit terms as referring to dhoti and sari. It is not hard to find references in the Prabhupada translations to Krishna's yellow dhoti, Draupadi's sari, etc, what to speak of the many paintings ("Windows into the spiritual world") comissioned by him in which these things are depicted. These are the facts. It is also a fact that, in his personal presence, his veteran devotees observed these customs. He even chastised senior devotees who did not do so. It was only for neophytes whom he was trying to encourage to take up the process that he did not lay down a strict dress code. Nevertheless, a true disciple must understand his spiritual master's wishes behind the literal words.

 

Now a cultural movement is underway within ISKCON to replace these expressions of Vedic culture with some sterile, watered-down concept of "Vedic culture" in which abstract and often ill-conceived principles replace concrete regulation and certainty. The logic is something like this: As a neophyte, you don't have to dress in dhoti or sari, therefore no one needs to wear these things.

 

We speak of such abstract, high-sounding principles like "surrendering unto the Lord" but time and again we place conditions. "Yes, I want to surrender my very Self to the Lord, but I don't want to give up my girlfriend, my television, or my blue jeans. Don't you know, prabhu, these are only required for Hindus. We are more enlightened than that."

 

There seems to be no logic to any of it. We are repeatedly taught that wearing of dhoti is only an "Indian" custom, not a "Vedic" one. So, why did Srila Prabhupada wear dhoti when he came to preach in USA? Let us remember that it was the Ramakrishna Mission (mayavadis) who persuaded Prabhupada to give up his "Indian" clothes and customs and to take up the customs of Americans. But Prabhupada refused - his words were "I have not come to learn their ways, but to teach them Krishna's ways."

 

Those are powerful words coming as they were from a 70+ year old Indian gentleman preaching in a foreign country with failing health, and against all odds. He wouldn't compromise, as the Vivekananda people had. Before you flame me with your holier-than-thou responses, those of you who claim to follow Prabhupada think about that.

 

No, I don't think a dhoti is required for liberation. But it is the Vedic custom, and it should be followed, especially by people who have been around and understand that devotional service isn't just about going to temple on Sundays and eating the free prasadam. Acceptance of varnashrama-dharma means accepting the entire culture, which is spiritual and beyond considerations of nation and race. And yes, it includes a dhoti. :-)

 

Guest #74

[Kripamoya]

 

And this is precisely the sort of attitude that I am referring to - the attempt to label such things as wearing of dhoti as "Indian culture" when in fact they are Vedic culture. No discussion on facts or evidence. Just hand-waving and white-washing of truth in true ISKCON style. And that too from someone who isn't an ISKCON devotee. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

 

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly translated many Sanskrit terms as referring to dhoti and sari. It is not hard to find references in the Prabhupada translations to Krishna's yellow dhoti, Draupadi's sari, etc, what to speak of the many paintings ("Windows into the spiritual world") comissioned by him in which these things are depicted. These are the facts. It is also a fact that, in his personal presence, his veteran devotees observed these customs. He even chastised senior devotees who did not do so. It was only for neophytes whom he was trying to encourage to take up the process that he did not lay down a strict dress code. Nevertheless, a true disciple must understand his spiritual master's wishes behind the literal words.

 

Now a cultural movement is underway within ISKCON to replace these expressions of Vedic culture with some sterile, watered-down concept of "Vedic culture" in which abstract and often ill-conceived principles replace concrete regulation and certainty. The logic is something like this: As a neophyte, you don't have to dress in dhoti or sari, therefore no one needs to wear these things.

 

We speak of such abstract, high-sounding principles like "surrendering unto the Lord" but time and again we place conditions. "Yes, I want to surrender my very Self to the Lord, but I don't want to give up my girlfriend, my television, or my blue jeans. Don't you know, prabhu, these are only required for Hindus. We are more enlightened than that."

 

There seems to be no logic to any of it. We are repeatedly taught that wearing of dhoti is only an "Indian" custom, not a "Vedic" one. So, why did Srila Prabhupada wear dhoti when he came to preach in USA? Let us remember that it was the Ramakrishna Mission (mayavadis) who persuaded Prabhupada to give up his "Indian" clothes and customs and to take up the customs of Americans. But Prabhupada refused - his words were "I have not come to learn their ways, but to teach them Krishna's ways."

 

Those are powerful words coming as they were from a 70+ year old Indian gentleman preaching in a foreign country with failing health, and against all odds. He wouldn't compromise, as the Vivekananda people had. Before you flame me with your holier-than-thou responses, those of you who claim to follow Prabhupada think about that.

 

No, I don't think a dhoti is required for liberation. But it is the Vedic custom, and it should be followed, especially by people who have been around and understand that devotional service isn't just about going to temple on Sundays and eating the free prasadam. Acceptance of varnashrama-dharma means accepting the entire culture, which is spiritual and beyond considerations of nation and race. And yes, it includes a dhoti. :-)

 

Guest #74

 

Funny, but I have read the entire Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, Caitanya Caritamrita and Nectar of Devotion (plus other books) and I never read anywhere in any of those books anything about the necessity of changing one's style of clothes or shaving his head bald.

 

Please show me anywhere in Prabhupada's books where he mentions the necessity of changing one's style of clothes, or mentions it as being helpful to developing Krishna consciousness.

 

Playing Hindu or "Vedic" dress-up has NOTHING to do with Krishna consciousness.

[theist]

 

How many people will take to wearing a dhoti and sporting a sikha and tilak in todays world and times?

 

You neglected my main point which is in the quotes above. If people think to chant the Lord's names they have to shave their head, wear a dhoti and tilak they may also choose to not chant or wear the garb. Perhaps you live in India and have never gone to the west... I don't know. But the way I learned it is that, "There are not any hard and fast rules for chanting the Lord's Holy names."

 

I am not against any style of dress. I am not anti shaved head and dhoti. In fact during my senior year of high school I moved out of my parents house and into the Radha Krsna Temple on the condition that I make arrangements to graduate which I did to pacify my parents. That meant going to school in a shaved head with shika. The year was 1971 and no one had ever seen or heard of a Hare Krsna in my area. I've paid my shaved head dues prabhu believe me. -:v)

 

How about you though. Is your head shaved right now? Not that it matters to me but I guess it does to you.

[Kripamoya]

But, don't get me wrong. I am just speaking on principle.

My dream is to get away from the modern culture and retire in a village life in a tropical country and life very simply.

Actually, I hate American style, culture, dress and materialism.

 

 

I love the Hindu dress, style and culture.

 

Asia is much more attractive to me.

[Guest guest]

 

Funny, but I have read the entire Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, Caitanya Caritamrita and Nectar of Devotion (plus other books) and I never read anywhere in any of those books anything about the necessity of changing one's style of clothes or shaving his head bald.

 

Please show me anywhere in Prabhupada's books where he mentions the necessity of changing one's style of clothes, or mentions it as being helpful to developing Krishna consciousness.

 

Playing Hindu or "Vedic" dress-up has NOTHING to do with Krishna consciousness.

 

 

Acharya means one who teaches by example. Did Prabhupada go out of his way to wear Vedic clothing, or did he compromise (like the Vivekananda people) and wear pants instead? Did he let his hair grow out so that he would be accepted by the hippies, or did he stand up for his own customs and preach the philosophy on its own merits?

 

Nothing has changed about early 21st century compared to 1960's that makes Vedic clothing suddenly unacceptable. Vedic clothing is just as non-mainstream today as it was back in the sixties.

 

Now, as far as the claim that wearing Vedic clothes has "NOTHING to do with Krishna consciousness." Let us look at what Prabhupada says was worn by Vedic personalities:

 

 

CC Madhya 20.78: When Tapana Misra gave Sanatana Gosvami a used dhoti, Sanatana immediately tore it into pieces to make two sets of outer cloth and underwear.

SB 4.21.17: The black, slick hair on his head was very fine and curly, and his neck, like a conchshell, was decorated with auspicious lines. He wore a very valuable dhoti, and there was a nice wrapper on the upper part of his body.

SB 2.8.20 purport: Similarly, at the time of Draupadi's precarious position, when she was attacked by the Kurus who wanted to see her naked in the open assembly of the royal order, the Lord saved her from being stripped by supplying an unlimited length of sari to cover her.

SB 8.8.41-46: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu, who can counteract any unfavorable situation, then assumed the form of an extremely beautiful woman. This incarnation as a woman, Mohini-murti, was most pleasing to the mind. Her complexion resembled in color a newly grown blackish lotus, and every part of Her body was beautifully situated. Her ears were equally decorated with earrings, Her cheeks were very beautiful, Her nose was raised and Her face full of youthful luster. Her large breasts made Her waist seem very thin. Attracted by the aroma of Her face and body, bumblebees hummed around Her, and thus Her eyes were restless. Her hair, which was extremely beautiful, was garlanded with mallika flowers. Her attractively constructed neck was decorated with a necklace and other ornaments, Her arms were decorated with bangles, Her body was covered with a clean sari, and Her breasts seemed like islands in an ocean of beauty. Her legs were decorated with ankle bells. Because of the movements of Her eyebrows as She smiled with shyness and glanced over the demons, all the demons were saturated with lusty desires, and every one of them desired to possess Her.

SB 8.9.16-17: O King, as the demigods and demons sat facing east in an arena fully decorated with flower garlands and lamps and fragrant with the smoke of incense, that woman, dressed in a most beautiful sari, Her ankle bells tinkling, entered the arena, walking very slowly because of Her big, low hips. Her eyes were restless due to youthful pride, Her breasts were like water jugs, Her thighs resembled the trunks of elephants, and She carried a waterpot in Her hand.

SB 8.12.18: Thereafter, in a nice forest nearby, full of trees with reddish-pink leaves and varieties of flowers, Lord Siva saw a beautiful woman playing with a ball. Her hips were covered with a shining sari and ornamented with a belt.

SB 8.12.21: As She played with the ball, the sari covering Her body became loose, and Her hair scattered. She tried to bind Her hair with Her beautiful left hand, and at the same time She played with the ball by striking it with Her right hand. This was so attractive that the Supreme Lord, by His internal potency, in this way captivated everyone.

CC Madhya 14.195: "When Krishna comes forward and greedily snatches at the border of Her sari, Srimati Radharani is actually very pleased within, but still She tries to stop Him."

SB 10.9.3: Dressed in a saffron-yellow sari, with a belt tied about her full hips, mother Yaśodā pulled on the churning rope, laboring considerably, her bangles and earrings moving and vibrating and her whole body shaking. Because of her intense love for her child, her breasts were wet with milk. Her face, with its very beautiful eyebrows, was wet with perspiration, and mālatī flowers were falling from her hair.

SB 4.25.24: With the end of her sari the woman was trying to cover her breasts, which were equally round and well placed side by side. She again and again tried to cover them out of shyness while she walked exactly like a great elephant.

 

All of the above make it abundantly clear that Prabhupada felt that sari and dhoti were in fact Vedic customs, not merely Indian customs. Otherwise, there would be no need for him to translate terms in this way. If Maharaja Prithu wore a dhoti, if Mohini-murti wore a sari, if Chaitanya's associates wore dhoti, etc etc, then where is the logic in saying these are merely "Indian" customs instead of "Vedic" ones???

 

The real reason ISKCON people say this is that they are tired of standing out. They want the admiration and respect of karmi society, and to that end they are willing to put forward pseudo-philosophical positions to rationalize avoiding the so-called "Indian" clothing.

 

You have to wonder what it is you really stand for if one on hand you preach all sorts of high-sounding principles like "Pure Love for Krishna" while on the other hand you avoid subscribing to the same culture centered on that very principle.

 

Actually, these days even dhoti and sari aren't really "Indian." Nowadays, mini-skirts, blue jeans, etc are the new "Indian" fashions. Wearing of dhoti and sari is what makes you stand out as spiritualists amongst people who are merely Hindu in name only. A person who preaches Krishna-consciousness but refuses to dress the part says to me that he's just all talk. If he doesn't have the courage to practice what he preaches, then as far as I'm concerned he can just walk away.

[theist]

 

 

 

You have to wonder what it is you really stand for if one on hand you preach all sorts of high-sounding principles like "Pure Love for Krishna" while on the other hand you avoid subscribing to the same culture centered on that very principle.

 

Actually, these days even dhoti and sari aren't really "Indian." Nowadays, mini-skirts, blue jeans, etc are the new "Indian" fashions. Wearing of dhoti and sari is what makes you stand out as spiritualists amongst people who are merely Hindu in name only. A person who preaches Krishna-consciousness but refuses to dress the part says to me that he's just all talk. If he doesn't have the courage to practice what he preaches, then as far as I'm concerned he can just walk away.

 

I asked you previously if your head is now shaved. Please answer the question. Are You wearing tilak also. IOW's are you consistent with your obviously intense feelings on the subject. Personally I don't care one way or the other. If you think the potency of Krsna's name is incresed somehow when you put a dhoti or sari over your physical body then that is your right no doubt.

 

This is a snippet from a conversation Sila Prabhupada had with Allen Ginsberg

 

Allen Ginsberg: Is the Caitanya-Krsna ritual, as you have it here in this house and in the other äshramas, is that something that a large mass of people can enter into?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Why not?

 

Allen Ginsberg: In America?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Because we have seen. All my students are Americans. So it has to be... And it is spreading.

 

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but what it requires is an adaptation of Indian dress and an adaptation...

 

Prabhupäda: That is not very important.

 

Allen Ginsberg: And an adaptation to Indian food.

Prabhupäda: No, no. Indian food... It is not Indian food. Are you not eating fruits?

 

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, yes.

 

Prabhupäda: Then that is Indian food? Do you mean to say it is Indian food?

 

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the curries.

 

Prabhupäda: Curries you may boil only. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you have to take our taste. No. That is not the program, that to become Krsna conscious you have to change your taste. No. We say from the Bhagavad-gétä... Krsna says, patraà puñpaà phalaà toyaà yo me bhaktyä prayacchati [bg. 9.26]. "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion these vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, I accept that." But we are going to satisfy Krsna. Therefore we are selecting foodstuff from this group. That you are all already accepting. Don't you take vegetables? Don't you take fruits? Don't you take grains? So where is the new item? Now, so far cooking, you can cook in your own taste. But the group must be this. Not meat. Because Krsna does not say. That is our program. So you are already taking grains, you are eating fruits, you are drinking milk. So where is the difference? I don't find any difference.

 

Allen Ginsberg: Well, I suppose not. You could say there is no difference because the food is basically the same materially. It's just a question of the style.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Now you take... Style may be different. That's all right....

[Kripamoya]

By the way, this claim to being "traditional gaudiya" by the followers of the siddha-pranali group is still very much a contentious issue by the Saraswata group.

 

The "siddha-pranali" system is also a very favorite concept with the genuine sahajiyas as well as the so-called traditionalists.

[Guest guest]

That is really stupid. Then the whole Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, since the associates of Caitanya are sahajiyas according to you. Siddha pranali has existed since day one. If you wanna be a Gaudiya, better stop offending your own sampradaya and starting learning what it is...!

[Kripamoya]

 

That is really stupid. Then the whole Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, since the associates of Caitanya are sahajiyas according to you. Siddha pranali has existed since day one. If you wanna be a Gaudiya, better stop offending your own sampradaya and starting learning what it is...!

 

really?

please show me in the writings of Srila Rupa Goswami where he uses the term "siddha-pranali" and explains it the way it is practiced today.

 

I would like to learn about that.

[Guest guest]

 

really?

please show me in the writings of Srila Rupa Goswami where he uses the term "siddha-pranali" and explains it the way it is practiced today.

 

I would like to learn about that.

 

First thing to learn: "siddha-pranali" is not "practiced."

 

Who is your grandfather? Do you "practice" him? No, you don't. But his identity made your identity possible.

 

Who is your guru's guru? Do you "practice" him? No, you don't. But his identity made your guru's identity possible, and in turn made possible your identity as a disciple.

 

You may love your uncle, and may feel closer to him than you feel to your father. But your physical lineage comes through your father, no matter how much you might wish otherwise.

 

Similarly, every bona-fide disciple has one, and only one, "spiritual father" who in turn has one, and only one "spiritual father", and so on, back to the start of the lineage.

 

That lineage is called the guru-pranali. Each of those gurus has a spiritual identity; the "siddha-pranali" is simply the siddha-identities of the members of one's guru-pranali.

[Kripamoya]

 

First thing to learn: "siddha-pranali" is not "practiced."

 

Who is your grandfather? Do you "practice" him? No, you don't. But his identity made your identity possible.

 

Who is your guru's guru? Do you "practice" him? No, you don't. But his identity made your guru's identity possible, and in turn made possible your identity as a disciple.

 

You may love your uncle, and may feel closer to him than you feel to your father. But your physical lineage comes through your father, no matter how much you might wish otherwise.

 

Similarly, every bona-fide disciple has one, and only one, "spiritual father" who in turn has one, and only one "spiritual father", and so on, back to the start of the lineage.

 

That lineage is called the guru-pranali. Each of those gurus has a spiritual identity; the "siddha-pranali" is simply the siddha-identities of the members of one's guru-pranali.

 

By siddha-pranali as a "practice" we refer to the occasion when "siddha-pranali" is given to the disciple.

 

The giving of siddha-pranali IS a practice.

 

The giving of siddha-pranali is when the guru confidentially reveals to a disciple the svarupa of both the guru and the disciple.

 

This is THE PRACTICE of giving siddha-pranali.

 

The actual term "siddha-pranali" is found nowhere in any of the writings of the Six Goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

If it is then please show us where.

[Kripamoya]

In Jaiva Dharma ch. 40, Bhaktivinode writes:

 

Goswami: The eagerness of the mind is given order by the eleven aspects of the spiritual identity and fixed in the divine pastimes. Weeping, the disciple falls before his spiritual master’s feet. The spiritual master’s original form as a sakhi manifests to the disciple, as well as the disciple’s form as her maidservant. The cowherd girls are all anxious to serve Krishna, and the spiritual master is one of these beautiful ladies of Vraja who has attained her highest aspiration in that service. The disciple then speaks words that follow Srila Raghunath Das Goswami’s mood in the PremAmbhoja-marandAkhya-stava-rAja (11-12):

 

tvAM natvA yAcate dhRtvA tRNaM dantair ayaM janaH

sva-dAsyAmRta-sekena jIvayAmuM suduHkhitam

na muJcec charaNAyAtam api duSTaM dayAmayaH

ato gAndharvike hA hA muJcainaM naiva tAdRzam

 

“Please bring back to life this very unhappy person, who is bowing down before you with straw in her mouth, by sprinkling her with the nectar of your servitorship.

 

“O Gandharvika! A truly compassionate person will not reject even a rascal if he surrenders to him. Please, therefore, never abandon this person, who is likewise surrendered to you.

 

In other words, “O beloved friend of Radharani! I am a most miserable creature, yet I have fallen down before you with straw between my teeth to beg you to sprinkle me with the ambrosia of your service and bring me back to life. A merciful person does not abandon one who has taken shelter of him. Since I am surrendered to you, please do not abandon me, for I wish to serve the Divine Couple of Vraja under your direction.”

 

This stage of acceptance takes exactly this form. Then, in his form as a sakhi, the spiritual master bestows residence in Vraja on his disciple and orders him to take shelter of Krishna’s holy name and meditate on His pastimes. The spiritual master then encourages the disciple, saying, “Soon you will attain what your heart desires.”

 

so, here we have an example of what REAL "siddha-pranali" is.

 

The spiritual form of the spiritual master is actually shown to the disciple and the disciple actually gets realization of his own spiritual form.

 

This is quite a bit different than some official giving of ekadasa-bhava by some guru who cannot manifest his spiritual form or actually reveal to the disciple his own form substantially.

 

This miraculous version of "siddha-pranali" has become substituted with a cheap version that is found in the sahajiya group.

 

The Saraswata parivar has nothing to do with the cheap, bogus version of "siddha pranali".

[Guest guest]

The problem with some of us is that we are double-agents caught behind Manjari lines. What can the generals do then but send us back to boot camp? If we don't get the point of the supremacy of Srimati Radharani we are of not much use in the pallyadasi battlefield. Indeed, Srila Sridhara Maharaja said we would be in fact a disturbance in the lila.

 

Radhe! Radhe!

get your grip.

Pallyadasis at

Her feet.

 

Up in arms

we have no fear,

from Abhay,

Watchadogs

and yes Sudhir.

 

Radhe!

Radhe!

Dasi!

Dasi!

 

Sir reporting for duty SIR!!

 

Radhe! Radhe!

[theist]

 

The problem with some of us is that we are double-agents caught behind Manjari lines. What can the generals do then but send us back to boot camp? If we don't get the point of the supremacy of Srimati Radharani we are of not much use in the pallyadasi battlefield. Indeed, Srila Sridhara Maharaja said we would be in fact a disturbance in the lila.

 

Radhe! Radhe!

get your grip.

Pallyadasis at

Her feet.

 

Up in arms

we have no fear,

from Abhay,

Watchadogs

and yes Sudhir.

 

Radhe!

Radhe!

Dasi!

Dasi!

 

Sir reporting for duty SIR!!

 

Radhe! Radhe!

 

[Guest guest]

 

really?

please show me in the writings of Srila Rupa Goswami where he uses the term "siddha-pranali" and explains it the way it is practiced today.

 

I would like to learn about that.

 

As if Rupa Goswami is the only GV acharya.

 

Have you ever heard about Caitanya´s associate Gopala Guru Goswami and his sisya Dhyanachandra?

[Guest guest]

If you have ever read jaiva dharma by thakur bhaktivinode, you would know that he accepted the teachings of dhyanacandra goswami on ekadasa bhava. if you accept him as guru in parampara, you should accept his teachings and practice. but you obviously don´t.

[Guest guest]

 

In Jaiva Dharma ch. 40, Bhaktivinode writes:

 

 

so, here we have an example of what REAL "siddha-pranali" is.

 

The spiritual form of the spiritual master is actually shown to the disciple and the disciple actually gets realization of his own spiritual form.

 

This is quite a bit different than some official giving of ekadasa-bhava by some guru who cannot manifest his spiritual form or actually reveal to the disciple his own form substantially.

 

This miraculous version of "siddha-pranali" has become substituted with a cheap version that is found in the sahajiya group.

 

The Saraswata parivar has nothing to do with the cheap, bogus version of "siddha pranali".

 

Oh wow, and how does the guru show his form to the disciple do you mean?

And how does the disciple realize his?

If you read the paddhati of Dhyanacandra and Jaiva dharma you will know.

And who are those sahajiyas that you see everywhere? Can you provide some names please?

Or are you too afraid to commit an aparadha. I think your aggressive style is very much opposed to trinad api sunicena taror iva sahisnuna, amanina manadena kirtaniya sada harih...

[Kripamoya]

It's interesting to note that, in the version of Bhaktivinode Thakur, he mentions that the form of the guru is shown to be a SAKHI and NOT a manjari.

 

He doesn't mention that a guru in the form of a manjari reveals these things, but the guru of the SAKHI group performs this function.

 

The leaders of the manjaris are of the sakhi groups.

 

The guru of the manjari is a sakhi.

 

Each sakhi has her own camp of manjaris.

 

These camps of manjaris following different sakhis have some uniqueness to each group and they all prefer to serve in support of the sakhi leader they follow.

 

My sakhi is the favorite sakhi of Radharani.

I want to assist her in her way of service.

 

Lalita and Visakha are the two principle sakhis of the Rupanuga camp.

 

The guru is supposed to be a manifestation of one of these two gopis.

 

Ultimately, the guru will reveal to be one of these two sakhis and instruct the disciple to serve in a particlur form.

[Guest guest]

I don´t find this presentation of the jaiva dharma quote particularly honest. In the same book Bhaktivinod explains the details. But, you say that giving siddha-pranali/ekadasa-bhava (as it is done in the book) is "sahajiyaism".

[raga]

We've been over this a dozen times with Kripabuddhi over at Gaudiya Discussions - in all his different avatars. Much of the time he has no consistent philosophy, but rather just makes it up as he goes. Consider, then, how much energy you want to spend addressing the issue with him. There are more worthy ways of spending one's time.