Traditional Gaudiyas and Preaching.....

[Kripamoya]

 

Oh wow, and how does the guru show his form to the disciple do you mean?

And how does the disciple realize his?

 

 

How?

The disciple looks the spiritual master in the eyes.

The spiritual master goes into samadhi trance and though the mystic power of maha-vidya takes the disciple into trance with him and shows him the vision.

 

That is the way that true siddha gurus do it.

 

That is the power of a genuine guru.

 

I know my guru has this power.

[Guest guest]

 

It's interesting to note that, in the version of Bhaktivinode Thakur, he mentions that the form of the guru is shown to be a SAKHI and NOT a manjari.

 

He doesn't mention that a guru in the form of a manjari reveals these things, but the guru of the SAKHI group performs this function.

 

The leaders of the manjaris are of the sakhi groups.

 

The guru of the manjari is a sakhi.

 

Each sakhi has her own camp of manjaris.

 

These camps of manjaris following different sakhis have some uniqueness to each group and they all prefer to serve in support of the sakhi leader they follow.

 

My sakhi is the favorite sakhi of Radharani.

I want to assist her in her way of service.

 

Lalita and Visakha are the two principle sakhis of the Rupanuga camp.

 

The guru is supposed to be a manifestation of one of these two gopis.

 

Ultimately, the guru will reveal to be one of these two sakhis and instruct the disciple to serve in a particlur form.

 

Dear Ksamabuddhi,

 

Your misconceptions are laughable, but they should remind us that there is a scriptural injunction against sharing certain matters with the faithless.

 

In this case, the Internet principle "do not feed the troll" is in full accord with shastra.

[Kripamoya]

 

Dear Ksamabuddhi,

 

Your misconceptions are laughable, but they should remind us that there is a scriptural injunction against sharing certain matters with the faithless.

 

In this case, the Internet principle "do not feed the troll" is in full accord with shastra.

Really, the difference is that I quoted from the writings of Bhaktivinode and you are just making groundless accusations.

 

Bhaktivinode says that the guru shows his form as a sakhi.

Can't you read?

Or, is it against your principles to read the writings of Bhaktivinode?

 

I didn't make it up.

 

Bhaktivinode's example in Jaiva Dharma is that the guru shows himself as a sakhi.

[Kripamoya]

 

We've been over this a dozen times with Kripabuddhi over at Gaudiya Discussions - in all his different avatars. Much of the time he has no consistent philosophy, but rather just makes it up as he goes. Consider, then, how much energy you want to spend addressing the issue with him. There are more worthy ways of spending one's time.

 

Do I smell a smokescreen?

Do I detect some fear of being exposed?

 

Madhava, if you don't see the guru as the functional representation of Lalita or Visakha, then maybe you should go back to Gaudiya kindergarten and learn the basics of siddhanta.

[Guest guest]

 

There are plenty of reasons why they are concernced, the main one being that they all leech disciples from Prabhupada. You happen to be one example of that, and the few that you have gathered and taken for initiation are another example.

 

"The chanting Hare Krishna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there."

 

Then I guess Srila Sanatana and Rupa Goswamis leached disciples from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Nityananda Prabhus. Taking Siksa from an advanced Vaisnava should instill deeper faith in one's diksa guru. Yes, "chanting Hare Krsna is our main business", but if you were to have made a campaign in Prabhupada's time an discouraged those who received Hare Nama from him from pursuing diksa, thin he would have severely chastised your nonsense. Now you and others like yourself are loose cannons shooting Vaisnava aparadha's across the internet.

[Kripamoya]

 

We've been over this a dozen times with Kripabuddhi over at Gaudiya Discussions - in all his different avatars. Much of the time he has no consistent philosophy, but rather just makes it up as he goes. Consider, then, how much energy you want to spend addressing the issue with him. There are more worthy ways of spending one's time.

Dear Madhavaji,

I was a Hare Krishna gopi-wanna-be before you were even born.

 

So, for you to say that I make it up as I go along is quite funny.

 

I have held these conceptions for longer than you have been in your recent incarnation, so I would have to say that you are quite confused.

 

 

Madhavananda das - born 11 June 1980 (1994 - Came in touch with ISKCON, started chanting.)

 

Kripamoya - joined ISKCON March 1975.

[raga]

I do have a very vivid memory of the fourteen assertions on raga-bhakti you made at Gaudiya Discussions, assertions that you miserably failed to prove.

 

I am not interested in entertaining you, please save yourself the trouble. I have more important things to do than unraveling wannabe-siddhanta with wannabe-gopis.

[Kripamoya]

 

I do have a very vivid memory of the fourteen assertions on raga-bhakti you made at Gaudiya Discussions, assertions that you miserably failed to prove.

 

I am not interested in entertaining you, please save yourself the trouble. I have more important things to do than unraveling wannabe-siddhanta with wannabe-gopis.

 

If remember correctly, you surrendered in that debate and offered a confession that you had been defeated.

Would you please show us that statement of confession?

[Guest guest]

It is true that Kshamabuddhi argues in an ad hoc manner. His main purpose is to excite a response from those he doesn't like that will make it possible for him to point a finger and say, "Look, he is a fake!" Or something like that. This is, I believe, a characteristic of the "troll." It is bad faith discussion and often makes Vaishnava sanga an unpleasant experience. I am sad to see that after all these years he has not changed his attitude.

[Kripamoya]

 

It is true that Kshamabuddhi argues in an ad hoc manner. His main purpose is to excite a response from those he doesn't like that will make it possible for him to point a finger and say, "Look, he is a fake!" Or something like that. This is, I believe, a characteristic of the "troll." It is bad faith discussion and often makes Vaishnava sanga an unpleasant experience. I am sad to see that after all these years he has not changed his attitude.

Or is it that you are just frustrated that you can't defeat me with your puny academic knowledge bolstered by some bogus official initiation from some siddha-pranali guru whom you never really surrended to or performed any meaningful service to?

 

These guys go to India and find some siddha-pranali guru who will give them some eka-dasa bhava for a few rupees donation to the cause and then they come back the western countries and pretend to be some "disciple" even though they have never done more than a day's worth of service to their "guru".

 

The problem is that they are trying to pass off this crazy concept upon devotees who gave years and years of hard work and service to their spiritual master.

 

We don't believe in this foolish system of getting "siddha-pranali" after a couple of days with the "guru", while sincere devotees devote their lives unto hard work and service to their spiritual master.

 

The problem is; Srila Prabhupada didn't produce a movement of idiots who buy into this siddha pranali hoax.

so, Jagat spend a few days with Lalita Prasad and got his gopi name.

 

Then he left that to come back to Canada, get married and become a college professor, though he had no service and no association with his "guru".

 

Please excuse the Krishna consciousness movement if they don't quite buy into that version of Krishna-prema.

[Guest guest]

Where is the question of victory and defeat? Why do you have to "win" something? This is the problem.

 

People will read and listen. They will decide whether they care or not. They will follow the most attractive concept of spiritual life. I suppose you think you are saving people from us...

 

Radhe Radhe. Signing out, Jagat

[Guest guest]

If one pronounces to know a fact of truth. That one is subject to examination. If when challenged, that person cannot back up their statement with an authority greater than their own say so, their statement has less potency to sway the minds of reasonable people who are searching for the truth in a scientific way.

 

Anyone who claims to make statements proferred as truism without care to whether they are accepted by anyone is either a simpleton or in a state of self-deception.

 

For what reason shall one make a statement in company of others?

 

That person is either looking to propagate their view, whether they admit it or not, or they are, in a fit likened to a spasm, babbling as a madman with no control over his faculties.

 

Each imperative statement is subject to debate in the material world. Those not making such with casual whimsy carry the courage of their conviction, and will do what they can to defend their position for the good of those they had hoped to influence in a positive fashion.

 

Those of the casual nature who speak only to relieve their brain's cramp and for the pleasure of hearing their own voice normally back away from any challenge to their veracity, citing righteous indifference to competition, and seek to characterise the challenger as overbearing, impolite, and trivial.

 

And so it goes.

[Guest guest]

Oh Boff!

[Guest guest]

"The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the absolute heralds the advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion." (The Harmonist, January 1932)

[Guest guest]

 

Siddha pranali has existed since day one.

Chaitanya never gave siddha pranali to anyone, even though he spread Krishna consciousness throughout India. Chaitanya also never received siddha pranali. Siddha pranali isn't orthodox, it is just popular in modern day Bengal.

[Kripamoya]

The problem with the siddha-pranali concept is that it causes one to think that he has now become an associate of the divine couple.

 

Srila Rupa Goswamis warns against that.

 

He teaches that we should think of an associate of the Lord and desire to serve in that way.

However, we are supposed to think of one of the parshada associates of the Lord and always think about how that associate is serving the Lord.

 

That's the difference between the teachings of the Saraswata acharyas and the siddha-pranali types.

 

The MOOD of service is the siddha-deha.

Cultivating the mood of the gopis is the process of siddha-deha.

 

thinking than one has now become a gopi is a great blunder.

[Guest guest]

Not necessarily, actually sidha-pranali is meant to cause one to think of the self as an associate of gopis/gurus. And gopi and service are basically synonyms. You Kshamabuddhi don't think of yoiurself as gopi and yet you have grasped the concept. So its a no brainer anyone understand this principle - gopi means the highest form of service. Sidha-pranali does NOT mean one skips service. Do you think those who have received sidha-pranali go around immagining themselves being served by Radha-Krishna? What a silly idea! Sidha-pranali means precisely the opposite, it makes a strong impression in the heart of the aspirant that "I am Krsna das". But notice the "das" in case one is not yet ready for "dasi". Actually, when one think of service to Radha-Krishna (understanding, by the grace of the parampara, the position of Radha) one is ready for "dasi". So there is nothing wrong in preaching the mood of service to Krishna as yoiu do. But you should know that the goal is Radha dasi. If indeed as you say we are to serve, then we must get into the very complex but wonderful dynamics of divine service. Try to think of service as something creative that springs from your heart out of love, beyond duty and obligation. Radha-Krishna do not need soldiers at Govardhana. That woiuld be rasabhas. They want your loving service as a transcendental girl under the guidance of your line of gurus. There are so many causes to serve in the world in our temporary identity. This kind of service may be purifying, but its not the final goal. We must know the goal, we must make a beeline for that goal as prayed by Srila Sridhara Maharaja at Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati's time of departure: "sri-rupa-manjari-pada, sei mora sampada..."

[Guest guest]

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave/

viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave//

"The intelligence of one who thinks of his siddha-deha without first acheiving elegibiltiy becomes bewildered."

 

Who is ELIGIBLE? Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaja says...

 

"It will come in individual case and it will awaken in an irresistible way. When the program of the sadhana stage is finished, it will come automatically, spontaneously. We are believers in that. Not to know the form already and then we will reach there; that is not the policy accepted by Guru Maharaja, Prabhupada [bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur] pujala raga patha gaurava bhange [raga marga, higher rasa, should always be kept over our head as worshipable; we are to serve the higher plane, not to try and enter there or to bring it down to this plane; we should always stay one step lower; if we try to look direct, it will vanish. Bhaktivinode Thakur also said, stick to the rulings of the class you are fit for, then you will see automatically:"

 

 

So AFTER one is ELIGIBLE, what is the next step?

 

PRACTICE. ONE MUST CULTIVATE THE ITEMS GIVEN BY THE GURU FROM THE CONCEPT STAGE TO THE REALIZATION STAGE THROUGH "practice in five stages". Here are the details given by Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda's Harinam Cintamani (Ch. 15):

Sadhana of the Rasa

"The sadhana (practice) of rasa and the siddhi (perfection) lie very close together. Very soon, by sadhana of the rasa, one will attain ones spiritual body. By the mercy of Radha one receives the mercy of Krsna, and thus quickly ones material body will dissolve and one will attain pure spiritual body in Vraja.

 

There are even higher stages than this, but these are not possible to describe by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna. Cultivating the loving relation in conjugal rasa (srngara rasa), called the ujjvala rasa, is the highest practice, by which one will experience full Krsna prema.

 

In order to perfect the experience in conjugal rasa one must accept a body of a gopi. A jiva thinking himself a male cannot enter the srngara rasa. To receive a spiritual body in conjugal rasa one must internally cultivate eleven specific items of ones identity: ones relationship, ones age, name, form membership in a particular group (yutha), dress, ones order, service, highest aspiration and palya dasa bhava.

 

These items are perfected through practice in five stages: sravana dasa, varana dasa, smarana dasa, apana dasa and sampati dasa.

Sravana Dasa, the stage of hearing.

 

Hearing the pastimes of Krsna, one develops an attraction for them. One then approaches a guru who has realized Krsna’s eternal pastimes and the eleven items in eternal service. From the guru, the devotee hears (sravana) the intricacies of the rasas (bhava tattva), which consists of the pastimes and the eleven elements of identity. On hearing the eight fold pastimes, the person will develop eagerness and inquire from the guru how to enter into those pastimes.

 

Varana Dasa, the stage of accepting

The guru, after perceiving the nature of the person, will then describe to him the eleven elements of his identity. He will give him his name, form, qualities and service, and his part in the pastimes, and tell him to enter into the pastimes.

 

If the disciple finds that his natural taste coincides with this identity, he should approach the guru and inform him that it suits him. He will then vow to cultivate that identity as his life and soul."

 

Let's get real or pay a very high price.

[Guest guest]

High or low, whatever the cost, we pay. We wants it.

[theist]

 

simply irresistible <HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

High or low, whatever the cost, we pay. We wants it.

 

If that is really your mood then more power to you. No one can hold you back. That is between you and Their Lordships.

 

If that is really your mood. I wonder though why you would be spending time following and engaging in a philosophical debate over the issue.

 

Does a man with a ravenous thirst spend time discussing the qualities of water while holding onto a glass of water? No! He drinks it down.

 

This is something that always comes to mind when this topic comes around. I wouldn't think it to be a debatable subject (over the internet especially) by someone on the "inside" of the subject.

 

May Krsna kindly grant us all progress towards His service.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, without humble beginnings, you do not even know what you want.

 

So you simply can't afford the high price yet without the build up of humble currency in your account.

 

Once your account is filled nicely with the currency of humble service to the

Spiritual Master through Vaidhi Bhakti Sadhana, which becomes raganuga naturally, then you can cash that in and pay the price necessary to receive a functional glimpse of your transcendental identity and the practices with which to cultivate it.

 

Before one is humbled through basic sadhana, one may be tempted by offerings of a "short cut", but the price is to go into debt, and this debt only payable through spiritual suicide.

 

That is the high price I referred to in my last post.

 

And if anyone believes they are beyond such vulnerabilities, that is a sure sign that they are not only vulnerable but probably already suckered into a bad deal.

 

Buyer Beware.

[Guest guest]

ah whats humble? To hold on to our present identity? Do expect your customers to buy into that? According to Srila Sridhara Maharaja we are students forever, we are beginners forever, therefore we are humble forever. We are the suicide squad, too, he said, not afraid of sacrifice. Humble are those who know their eternal identity. "Die to live". Learn something today. Free online courses.

[raga]

 

Does a man with a ravenous thirst spend time discussing the qualities of water while holding onto a glass of water? No! He drinks it down.

 

This is something that always comes to mind when this topic comes around. I wouldn't think it to be a debatable subject (over the internet especially) by someone on the "inside" of the subject.

Some may be suffering from the bodhisattva syndrome. Others have more on their lips than in their hearts.

 

We do have the precedent of Haridas Thakur, for example, who was most certainly filled with the ambrosial tastes of the Name, but regardless reached out to the world and also participated in assemblies where nama-tattva was discussed, voicing his objections over the views of those who failed to understand the Name's glory and might.

[Guest guest]

Might. I like that.

[Guest guest]

Humble is to be honest about one's actual position, and to have faith that anartha's will be removed over time with diligent sadhana process.

 

Humble is not imagining one's plethora of anartha's which appear each day somehow are irrelevant because some sloka says that Vaisnava's are transcendental to the gunas and hey I'm a Vaisnava so I'm safe.

 

Realize your proper identity. Conceptualizing it is the first step, but the map is not the territory.

 

Best wishes.