Why isn't there a Prabhupada Guru who comes to save me and gives me full shelter???

[Bhava dasa]

 

Doesn't this imply that the Person Bhagavata is present within the Book Bhagavata. Or perhaps that the Book Bhagavata is just an extension or an expresssion of the Person(s) Bhagavata?

It appears that you are saying the same in both questions. "Person Bhagavata is present within the Book Bhagavata" = "Book Bhagavata is...an expresssion of the Person(s) Bhagavata". Is that how you meant to phrase this?

[Kripamoya]

Don't forget that the person "bhagavat" must be as genuine and transcendental as the book Bhagavat.

 

Sadhaka devotees are not really "bhagavat".

 

They are simply aspiring to become Bhagavat.

 

A real Bhagavat devotee is a siddha-bhakta who has graduated the sadhana and attained svarupa-siddhi.

 

If we start referring to every sadhaka in the world as "bhagavat" then the mission of Mahaprabhu has fallen into an abyss.

 

Let's expect and demand the highest standard from those that would be diksha gurus.

[Guest guest]

Real faith?

 

It is wrong to paint the entire GBC of Iskcon with a broad brush. For there are certainly sincere souls among them.

 

I think in the case of those still weak of heart among them, faith = courage and conviction to do the right thing despite the consequences. Sraddha. No matter what I will lose. No matter what I will gain. No matter what my peers will think of me. No matter what happens to the brick and mortar that shelters my body today. I will follow and oppose deviation.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhava dasa]

 

Real faith?

 

It is wrong to paint the entire GBC of Iskcon with a broad brush. For there are certainly sincere souls among them.

 

I think in the case of those still weak of heart among them, faith = courage and conviction to do the right thing despite the consequences. Sraddha. No matter what I will lose. No matter what I will gain. No matter what my peers will think of me. No matter what happens to the brick and mortar that shelters my body today. I will follow and oppose deviation.

 

Hare Krsna

Very well put.

[theist]

 

Theist already pointed out very early in this thread that Srila Prabhupada's words neither support an ecclesiastical arrangement of rubber stamping Gurus nor the ritvik misconception - so don't twist his words in that regard.

 

Thank You Audarya-lila prabhu.

 

Someone accepting the association of Srila Prabhupada in his books does not mean that Krsna will not bring yet another bone fide guru into that persons life from the boldily side. That other person may even be the principle person that Krsna chooses to reveal Himself through to that aspirant.

 

If we really learn to recognize the Living Presence of Krsna's devotee in his books and commentaries then we will be able to recognize them also in bodily form when they appear.

 

We have no shortage of Guru. We have a shortage of sincerity and that is all.

 

It's my belief that new bhaktas should be told to always seek guidance from the Lord in the heart at every step through prayer. Not that we can hear Caitya-guru like we are talking face to face but He hears us loud and clear and will be merciful and help us.

[Guest guest]

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudeva

 

Bhagavad Gita 10:10 states.

 

To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

 

Purport:

 

In this verse the word buddhi-yogam is very significant. We may remember that in the Second Chapter the Lord, instructing Arjuna, said that He had spoken to him of many things and that He would instruct him in the way of buddhi-yoga. Now buddhi-yoga is explained. Buddhi-yoga itself is action in Kṛṣṇa consciousness; that is the highest intelligence. Buddhi means intelligence, and yoga means mystic activities or mystic elevation. When one tries to go back home, back to Godhead, and takes fully to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in devotional service, his action is called buddhi yoga. In other words, buddhi-yoga is the process by which one gets out of the entanglement of this material world. The ultimate goal of progress is Kṛṣṇa. People do not know this; therefore the association of devotees and a bona fide spiritual master are important. One should know that the goal is Kṛṣṇa, and when the goal is assigned, then the path is slowly but progressively traversed, and the ultimate goal is achieved.

 

When a person knows the goal of life but is addicted to the fruits of activities, he is acting in karma-yoga. When he knows that the goal is Kṛṣṇa but he takes pleasure in mental speculations to understand Kṛṣṇa, he is acting in jñāna-yoga. And when he knows the goal and seeks Kṛṣṇa completely in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service, he is acting in bhakti-yoga, or buddhi-yoga, which is the complete yoga. This complete yoga is the highest perfectional stage of life.

 

A person may have a bona fide spiritual master and may be attached to a spiritual organization, but still, if he is not intelligent enough to make progress, then Kṛṣṇa from within gives him instructions so that he may ultimately come to Him without difficulty. The qualification is that a person always engage himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and with love and devotion render all kinds of services. He should perform some sort of work for Kṛṣṇa, and that work should be with love. If a devotee is not intelligent enough to make progress on the path of self-realization but is sincere and devoted to the activities of devotional service, the Lord gives him a chance to make progress and ultimately attain to Him.

 

"a person may have both a Bona Fide Spiritual Master (pure acharya), AND may be attached to a spiritual organization." (Acharya's organization).

 

"BUT STILL" (despite having access to this)

 

"if he is not intelligent enough to make progress" (not yet inclined to take advantage of these resources due to lack of Buddhi or intelligence)

 

"Krsna from within gives him instructions so that he ULTIMATELY may come without difficulty."

 

The new person is already having difficulty. They lack the intelligence to take advantage of the Spiritual Master and the Spiritual institution (body of instructions for sadhana among sanga).

 

"The ultimate goal of progress is Kṛṣṇa. People do not know this; therefore the association of devotees and a bona fide spiritual master are important."

 

So without this intellegence, they cannot ultimately make the progress that comes from taking advantage of these things. They are stuck at a certain level. And will not reach the goal.

 

But they are sincere. And they are qualified as sincere by the following.

 

"The qualification is that a person always engage himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and with love and devotion render all kinds of services. He should perform some sort of work for Kṛṣṇa, and that work should be with love."

 

So to such a sincere and qualified but unintelligent person having difficulty, the Lord gives instructions from within. Chaitya Guru takes over. But to what end? Does Chaita Guru replace the Spiritual master and the institution?

 

No. Chaita Guru knows that a neophyte (sincere person of weak intelligence having difficulty) must be able to take advantage of the Spiritual Master and his Spiritual Institution in order to come to him ULTIMATELY.

 

So Chaitya Guru will work from within to subsidize that neophytes intelligence, and gradually remove whatever DIFFICULTY the neophyte is having in order to do what is necessary to advance and ULTIMATELY come to the Person that Chaitya Guru (an impersonal feature of the Lord) represents.

 

So when Theist says,

 

"It's my belief that new bhaktas should be told to always seek guidance from the Lord in the heart at every step through prayer. Not that we can hear Caitya-guru like we are talking face to face but He hears us loud and clear and will be merciful and help us."

 

According to BG 10:10 such advice would be situational. To advise to "always do that at every step of the way" would preclude the possibility that one may be intelligent enough to take advantage of as Theist puts it,

 

"Someone accepting the association of Srila Prabhupada in his books"

 

"The Living Presence of Krsna's devotee in his books and commentaries"

 

So if Srila Prabhhpada was a bonafide Spiritual Master when he wrote those books, this would now serve to fulfill the requirement of "having a bonafide spiritual master, and the association of such. If someone was intelligent enough to recognize this.

 

And if this spiritual master had any divine potency, then a spiritual institution would be present as well. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta inspired one of his disciples to create a blueprint for a spiritual institution "the whole world COULD (NOT MUST) live in. So those who continue this institution with purity, make it available to the intelligent as well.

 

So someone who is in the position of monitoring new bhaktas would need the understanding of Bhagavad Gita 10:10 in order to then discriminate, who needs what type of guidance.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

The simple answer is that the book is passive and the person is active. You cannot have a conversation with the book - that is common sense.

 

When Rupa Goswami delineated the various steps in sadhana bhakti one of the first points is taking shelter of Sri Guru and taking instructions from Sri Guru. He gave this instruction in the form of a book - yet when speaking about this very important devotional activity he never says that if one is intelligent enough to recognize the presence of Sri Guru in his writings then he/she doesn't need a personal guide. If you look at the Nectar of Devotion where Srila Prabhupada covers this section you will see that he very clearly says that the Guru comes before the aspiring sadhaka in visual form.

 

I agree that we have to discriminate and that it is wrong to refer to conditioned souls as Bhagavatas in the sense we are discussing it here, however it is wrong and shows a poor ability to discriminate to judge that there are no Bhagavatas worthy of taking shelter of presently. This type of analysis is really offensive and shows an inability to understand and discriminate properly.

 

Everywhere in all the books of our lineage you will find that association wlth advanced devotees is most important.

 

Back to the question - book Bhagavata and person Bhagavata - all of the books are given to us by the person Bhagavata and as such the person Bhagavata is obviously present within the book - still the book is pointing to the devotee who you can personally talk to, see his/her example, hear their Krsna katha, be inspired by their devotion etc.

 

These are common sense points that really don't take alot of intelligence to understand.

[Guest guest]

Audarya Lila says "however it is wrong and shows a poor ability to discriminate to judge that there are no Bhagavatas worthy of taking shelter of presently. This type of analysis is really offensive and shows an inability to understand and discriminate properly."

 

I personally never said that there are no Bhagavatas in Personal Form on the planet. Any such would be worthy of association. There was no analysis leading to that.

 

However, here is what Srila Prabhupada himself had to say about this so called passive and active analysis, and whether or not one could have an active interaction through his books. Interaction = Have question, ask it, have it answered.

 

“Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and AUTOMATICALLY ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED.”

(Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)

 

“If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A temple is a place whereby one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED and you will have a firm basis of Krishna Consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect.” (Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22/11/74)

 

“In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU and by this process your spiritual life will develop.” (Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

 

“So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED.” (Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

 

"So there is NOTHING TO BE SAID NEW. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present it doesn't matter."

(SP Arrival conversation, 17/5/77, Vrindavan)

 

 

And here is what he had to say, if a person, after reading his books, was not able to identify a "Bhagavata" from the symptoms one is required to identify such a person with.

 

CC madhya 19.157 - (Original Version): "If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or non-devotees in the Krsna Consciousness Society, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master."

 

And we now see how one can consult him through his books.

 

And even if technically, it is Chaitya Guru transcendentally giving the correct answer to a disciple when inquiring through the books, this is possible because of the MahaBhagavata Guru's merciful instruction in that regard being followed by the sincere disciple.

 

To limit the team of a MahaBhagavata and Chaitya Guru in light of such explicit instructions is a mistake. If there is another MahaBhagavata who one may take association from that is all the sweeter. They have Srila Prabhupada's instructions on how to identify such a person, and as long as it is not someone Srila Prabhupada specifically prohibited that person from associating with (how could it be?) then the devotee gets another beautiful form of association. But until then?

 

 

Reporter: What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?

 

Srila Prabhupada: I will never die Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! (laughter)

I will live from my books and you will utilise.

(SP Press Conference, 16/7/75, San Francisco)

 

Reporter: Are you training a successor?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, my Guru Maharaja is there.

(SP Press conference, 16/7/75, San Francisco)

 

"Only Lord Caitanya can take my place. He will take care of the Movement."

(SP Room conversation, 2/11/77)

 

 

I personally will be pleased when Lord Caitanya comes to take his place. And if he sends someone I can recognize as his servant in this regard, I will be just as ecstatic.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Hari Nitya Hari Nitya

Nitya Nitya Hari Hari

Hari Satya Hari Satya

Satya Satya Hari Hari

 

Hari Bhakthi Hari Shakthi

Hari Radha Hari Hari

Hari Shanti Hari Mukthi

Hari Bhakthi Hari Hari

 

Hari Mata Hari Pita

Hari Bhrata Hari Hari

Hari Prema Hari Dharma

Hari Bhrmya Hari Hari

 

Jai Sri Hari

[Guest guest]

Jaya Nitae Gaura Hari Bol!

 

Gaura Nityananda Bol

 

Hari Bol

 

Hari Bol!

[theist]

 

to the Person that Chaitya Guru (an impersonal feature of the Lord) represents.-guest post #56

 

IMpersonal feature???

 

"Although the Paramatma enters the heart of the jivatma, who is influenced and designated by a material body, the Paramatma has nothing to do with the jivatma's body. Because the Paramatma has no material connections, He is described here as anama-rupam niraham. The Paramatma has no material identity, whereas the jivatma does. The jivatma may introduce himself as an Indian, American, German and so on, but the Paramatma has no such material designations, and therefore He has no material name. The jivatma is different from his name, but the Paramatma is not; His name and He Himself are one and the same. This is the meaning of niraham, which means "without material designations." This word cannot possibly be twisted to mean that the Paramatma has no ahankara, no "I-ness" or identity. He has His transcendental identity as the Supreme. This is the explanation given by Srila Jiva Gosvami. According to another interpretation, given by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, niraham means nirniscayena aham. Niraham does not mean that the Supreme Lord has no identity. Rather, the stress given by the word aham proves strongly that He does have His personal identity because nir not only means "negative" but also means "strong ascertainment."--From purport SB 5.19.4

[Guest guest]

Explicit instructions universally applicable to devotees following A.C. Bhaktivedanta are found in his books. Taking quotes from letters that address questions from invidual sadhakas and are meant for encouragement and trying to apply them universally without understanding the context is a mistake. Will you ignore all that is written in his books where he very explicitly points out the need for personal association? That advancement on the path is very difficult without such association. That Sri Guru comes visually before the sadhaka? etc.? Again, common sense must prevail. Sri Guru will give personal instructions just suited to a particular disciple based on their particular psycho/social make up and what will best help them to advance.

 

Just think a little bit about it - so much has changed in 30 years - do you really think that questions related to the times in which we are presently living will not arise? Do you think that all those questions can be adequately addressed by telling a person with such inquiries to 'read the books' because all your questions can be answered therein? That is a misunderstanding of what Srila Prabhupada is talking about. He is talking in a very general way, not in a specific way. If you look at the historical record you will also find that devotees weren't reading his books and many of the questions they raised could certainly be answered by reading.

 

I have had, and will continue to have, all kinds of questions that aren't answered in any of Srila Prabhupada's books. You have to think deeply about what is said and written and balance all of the comments from sastra and from letters and lectures. If everything is in his books then why does he say (in his books) that every devotee should read Brhad Bhagavatamrita which is clearly not included in any of his publications? Again, just a little common sense should prevail here rather than picking quotes from letters and such to try to support an untenable idea.

 

Clearly what is talked about in terms of the two Bhagavatas are the book and the person. Trying to juggle that into - well the person is present in the book so it really means just the book - is really nonsense. Krsna consciousness is not that complicated - it is straight forward and honest. You don't need to manufacture a new concept especially when the meaning is clear.

[Guest guest]

Jaya Paramatma.

 

Thanks for the correction Theist.

 

SB 3:2:28

 

These incidents are enjoyable only by the residents of Vraja

like Nanda Maharaja, and not by the impersonalist worshipers of Brahman

or Paramatma.

 

I am looking for the quote where Bhaktivinode Thakur confirms that BOTH the Brahmajyoti and Paramatma are not eternal features of the Lord, due to the fact that they only manifest in the material world. That is what I meant to say. This is why the yogi's who worship the Paramatma are still considered impersonalists.

 

I'll report back.

 

Hari Bol

[Guest guest]

The symptoms of the rainy season may be compared to the symptoms of the living entities who are covered by the three modes of material nature. The unlimited sky is like the Supreme Brahman, and the tiny living entities are like the covered sky, or Brahman covered by the three modes of material nature. Originally, everyone is part and parcel of Brahman. The Supreme Brahman, or the unlimited sky, can never be covered by a cloud, but a portion of it can be covered. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But they are only an insignificant portion of the Supreme Lord. This portion is covered by the modes of material nature, and therefore the living entities are residing within this material world. The brahmajyoti--spiritual effulgence--is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free.

[Guest guest]

In Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that those who seek and worship the Paramatma are engaged in an activity which is not eternal.

 

"Religions that strive to attain the Paramatma and the impersonal Brahman are all temporary religions. A material motive pushes one to seek the impersonal Brahman. Therefore the religion of the impersonal Brahman is materially motivated and temporary. It is not eternal. The individual soul trapped in the material world is eager to escape his material bondage. To escape this material bondage the soul searches for the impersonal Brahman. In this way he takes shelter of a religion that is both temporary and materially motivated. Therefore the religion of seeking the impersonal Brahman is not eternal. Seeking the happiness of rapt meditation (samadhi), a soul may take shelter of the religion of seeking the Paramatma. Thus, seeking a more subtle kind of material pleasure, he follows a temporary religion based on a material motive. Therefore the religion of seeking the Paramatma is not eternal. The religion of serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead is alone eternal." CH. 4

 

The worshippers of the Paramatma (Supersoul) wish to meet the Supersoul. Desiring to enter a mystic trance and there meet the Supersoul, they engage in kriya-yoga, karma-yoga, or astanga-yoga. According to these people, initiation into chanting Vishnu mantras, worship of Lord Vishnu, meditating on Lord Vishnu, and other kinds of devotional service, are all various aspects of karma-yoga. Among these people, Vaishnava religion contaminated by fruitive work is manifested. Ch.4

 

"Impersonal Brahman is incomplete realization of the absolute whole, and so also is the conception of Paramatma in the Twelfth Chapter. There it shall be seen that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Purusottama, is above both impersonal Brahman and the partial realization of Paramatma." Srila Prabhupada Intro to BG.

 

But the Supersoul is an expansion of Lord Visnu. A plenary and complete portion of the Transcendental Lord.

 

"They who follow the path of astanga-yoga search after the Supersoul, who is His plenary portion." Ch. 14

 

In particular Parmatma is considered to be an expansion of an expansion.

 

"This Garbhodakasayi Visnu is glorified in the Vedas in the hymns of Garbha-stuti, which begin with the description of the Lord as having thousands of heads, etc. The Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Lord of the universe, and although He appears to be lying within the universe, He is always transcendental. This also has already been explained. The Visnu who is the plenary portion of the Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of the universal life, and He is known as the maintainer of the universe or Ksirodakasayi Visnu. So the three features of the original purusa are thus understood. And all the incarnations within the universe are emanations from this Ksirodakasayi Visnu." Srimad-Bhagavatam 1:3:5 Purport

 

 

"Therefore the Supersoul (paramatma), is Lord Visnu, who is perfect and complete, who has entered the material world, and who protects the material world. Lord Visnu thus manifests in three forms, as: 1. Karanodakasayi Visnu, Ksirodakasayi Visnu, and Garbhodakasayi Visnu. The Karana Ocean, which is also known as the Viraja River,, lies on the boundary that separates the spiritual and material worlds. To that place Lord Maha-Visnu goes and reclines on the Karana Ocean. Thus He is Karanodakasayi Visnu. Glancing at her from far away, the Lord employs Maya-devi to create the material world....

 

The Supreme Lord, whose glance is so powerful, expands Himself as Garbhodakasayi Visnu and enters the material world. The particles of light that constitute Lord Maha-Visnu's glance are the conditioned spirit souls. Into the heart of each conditioned soul, the Lord enters in a form the size of a thumb. That form is called Ksirodakasayi Visnu or Hiranyagarbha. Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual spirit soul both reside in the heart." Jaiva Dharma Chap. 14

 

Now below, we see why the Paramatma feature of the Lord is not meant for worship or direct service, If one wants to attain Vaikuntha service or greater, from which one will never fall.

 

"Vrajanatha: The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-shakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit?

 

Babaji: No. The cit-shakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krishna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-shakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krishna's jiva-shakti. The cit-shakti is Lord Krishna's complete potency (purna-shakti). The individual souls (jiva-shakti) are counted among Lord Krishna's incomplete potencies (apurna-shakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krishna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-shakti, He appears as Krishna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-shakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krishna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-shakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya.

 

"As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's spiritual hladini-shakti, they are defeated by Maya." Jaiva Dharma Ch. 15

 

"Thus the Lord's internal potency manifests three features: 1. hladini, 2. sandhini and 3. samvit. The hladini-shakti which in its complete form is Sri Radha, the daughter of Vrsabhanu, brings transcendental bliss to Lord Krishna." Jaiva Dharma ch. 14

 

So one must serve the servant of Srimati Radharani, Sri Guru, the Person Bhagavata to get the shelter of the hladini-shakti.

 

And if one worships the impersonal brahman, or the expansion of Visnu who is Paramatma?

 

"Therefore at the end of life the transcendentalists either think of the brahmajyoti, the Paramatma or the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. In all cases they enter into the spiritual sky, but only the devotee, or he who is in personal touch with the Supreme Lord, enters into the Vaikuntha planets. The Lord further adds that of this "there is no doubt." This must be believed firmly. We should not reject that which does not tally with our imagination; our attitude should be that of Arjuna: "I believe everything that You have said." Therefore when the Lord says that at the time of death whoever thinks of Him as Brahman or Paramatma or as the Personality of Godhead certainly enters into the spiritual sky, there is no doubt about it. There is no question of disbelieving it." Srila Prabhupada : Intro to Bhagavad Gita.

 

Chaitya Guru being the Parmatma, has an action limited to the material realms

 

Remember, the Paramatma expansion of the Lord is ONLY manifested in the maya shakti. "When He is manifested in the maya-shakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu." Jaiva Dharma ch 15

 

So in the life of one who wishes to attain pure devotional service and never fall down again, they must attain an active form of worship and thus service to the Lord. Thus they must contact the hladini shakti or internal potency as mentioned above.

 

"Similarly, a pure devotee, who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead only, achieves the planets of Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka without a doubt. It is very easy to understand through this important verse that if by simply worshiping the demigods one can achieve the heavenly planets, or by worshiping the Pitas achieve the Pita planets, or by practicing the black arts achieve the ghostly planets, why can the pure devotee not achieve the planet of Krsna or Visnu? Unfortunately many people have no information of these sublime planets where Krsna and Visnu live, and because they do not know of them they fall down. Even the impersonalists fall down from the brahmajyoti." Bhagavad Gita chapter 9 text 25

 

Reaching the spiritual Sky is just not enough.

 

Otherwise, even after attaining knowledge of one's spiritual identity, if one does not come to the point of knowing that the living entities are eternal parts and parcels of the whole and can never become the whole, one has to fall down again into the material atmosphere. Indeed, one must fall down even if he has become one with the brahmajyoti. Sri Isopanishad. 17

 

 

Hare Krsna

[Kripamoya]

Then again, I am always very suspicious of any shastra, including the works of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, that have been translated by sadhakas who are depending on their knowledge of Bengali or Sanskrit as opposed to a fully realized soul who genuinely understands the full inner meaning and import of these revealed scriptures.

 

Putting faith in literal translations that have been rendered by sadhakas is always risky.

 

Genuine, self-realized acharyas know more than just language and grammar.

They have realized knowledge that many times allows them to undertand the shastra from a spiritual platform as opposed to a linguistic approach.

 

Literal translations do not take into consideration all the factors of time, place and audience. The whole process of parampara is that the successor acharya presents the shastra in the proper framework for the specific audience. This requires an empowered acharya. Linguistics cannot qualify one for presenting shastra properly according to the proper circumstances.

 

Religion means proper adjustment.

 

This is the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

Linguistics do not afford anyone the ability to make the proper adjustment according to the time, place and circumstance.

 

Without proper adjustment, religions becomes irreligion

[rishibrahma]

the problem with the GBC guru system is that the success rate is very bad and the failure rate of gurus is very high.

 

I don't accept for a minute that Srila Prabhupada would accept or appreciate what they are doing now.

 

I am confident he would tell the GBC to "stop all initiatons immediatly".

 

He would have said that after about the second or third guru went down for the count.

 

There is no way that Srila Prabhupada approves of the GBC guru system and all this falling down of gurus.

 

ISKCON has gone off the deep end.

 

They are making a mockery out of the parampara system.

[Guest guest]

I read somewhere that Srila Prabhupada requested some of his senior disciples to translate Jaiva Dharma. His authorization means something, no?

 

Anyway, take away the Jaiva Dharma excerpts and we can see from the Gita excerpts and from other places in Srila Prabhupada's books mostly the same basic info about Paramatma. I can't believe I said he was impersonal though.

 

Yes I can. I am truly a fool.

[Guest guest]

"keep planting the seeds, then put water , be patient , krishna takes the fruits"

 

When someone gets a seed and does not hear, but pretends to hear, only taking what will suit their personal agenda for power over others, Sravana never actually takes place.

 

People like this may have "read' all of the Books from a MahaBhagavat for this purpose and never sincerely practiced any of the instructions with the intent to grow spiritually, just made a show of it. All of it. They are not even kanistha yet.

 

Such a being is indeed has a role to play. They got their mercy. They are not interested in sravana, so they do not actually engage in Kirtan. Thus no water hits their seed. A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's personal Vapuh association could not influence them to truly hear. I don't see how anyone of us thinks that by "discussing" thing with them, we might change their mind.

 

No, it is going to take more than that for certain people to truly gain the desire to take instruction from another person besides their self.

 

Alot more.

[theist]

 

Jaya Paramatma.

 

Thanks for the correction Theist.

 

SB 3:2:28

 

These incidents are enjoyable only by the residents of Vraja

like Nanda Maharaja, and not by the impersonalist worshipers of Brahman

or Paramatma.

 

I am looking for the quote where Bhaktivinode Thakur confirms that BOTH the Brahmajyoti and Paramatma are not eternal features of the Lord, due to the fact that they only manifest in the material world. That is what I meant to say. This is why the yogi's who worship the Paramatma are still considered impersonalists.

 

I'll report back.

 

Hari Bol

 

Most of us do not have the developed rasa of Nanda Maharaja. Trying to imitate such pastimes will not help us.

 

I just posted a quote from Srila Prabhupada saying Paramatma is not impersonal. Now you want to post other quotes that say He is impersonal. So which is it? Are you willing to say which one is wrong?

 

Paramatma is not an eternal form because the material world is manifested then it lies dormant within Maha-vishnu and then it's manifest again and again the Lord enters as Supersoul. That has nothing to do with being impersonal.

 

The brahmajyoti is now a temporary glow given off by matter?? That's a new one. I thought matter originated from the Brahman effulgence. If it is not an eternal feature of Krsna are you then suggesting the spiritual world is dark? That Krsna has no eternal radiance. Sounds like trying to conceive of the sun without sunshine.

 

Yes yogis worship the Supersoul in an impersonal fashion. What's new? They worship the form of Krsna in Vraja while holding an impersonal conception also.

 

Paramatma is personal. As your rasa is revealed or develops, however you see that, your view of Godhead will become fuller and more intimate. You may come to see Krsna in your heart in His Shyamsundar form if that is how you love Him. The residents of Vrndavan were not so enchanted by seeing Krsna in His four armed form either. That doesn't mean Vaikuntha Vishnu is impersonal.

 

Well people are on different levels. I am still trying to realized that the Lord is one of the five factors in every action. So we have to progress from where we really are. Pretending to be on the top rung of the ladder when really we have only reached the second rung is of no use.

 

"Act in times that are with thee

And progress ye shall call."

 

ps Do you think you could show some courtesy to the members here by including a fake name with the title guest so that we can distinquish you from the other guests please.

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist,

 

My ability to say what I was vaguely conceiving was lacking, and I offended the very essence of Supersoul which is all the things that Bhaktivinode Thakura and my Srila Prabhupada have to say about Paramatma in that last post which I painstakingly produced. He is a transcendental person. His engagement with the Jiva soul is limited by his appearance only within the Material realm, and this has commensurate characteristics.

 

If you read those excerpts, which for Audarya-lila's sake were not from personal letters, and take into account all else on the subject, there in it shows that we as Bhakta's have special grace because we do not seek the company of Paramatma as the end goal. For his function does not extend beyond the bounds of the Karuna. My inability to articulate that is my flaw, yet the point is the point.

 

I got on this tangent when you stated your opinion that "It's my belief that new bhaktas should be told to always seek guidance from the Lord in the heart at every step through prayer. "

 

We are all prone to exaggeration. Broad blanket terms like always, and every step. But this is a symptom. And we cannot deny symptoms lest they compound to disease.

 

Honestly, I prefer spending my time building understandings by sharing realizations with those of my level, and witnessing how we grow in our understanding of my Spiritual Master's glory, the glory of disciples who provide natural Siksa for one another, and thus the glory of Sri Krsna.

 

By keeping our Acharya in the center, especially by his instructions, there are no impediments to this, and away we go.

 

But sometimes I find myself amidst mixed company, where some are as I just described, but some are subtly and not so subtly hinting that there is more we are missing, that we are misinterpreting our Spiritual master's teachings.

 

Not one of us outside of India would have heard the essential Gaudiya Siddhanta if it were not for Sri Nityananda Prabhu utterly overshadowing his dear and willing servant A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada with his Shakta-avesha potency. He traveled the whole world at advanced age, through incredible austerities due to poor health, the company of difficult ambitious students, extreme cultural differences, and utter flat out refusal of his godbrothers to assist him in the ways he repeatedly requested. This is a fact. All for love and arranged to meet us wherever we were at. And though this Heroic and unique singular acheivement is repeated over and over, there are many who cannot quite grasp it's import.

 

And probably will not for a hundred more years.

 

And it makes me sad inside actually to hear peoples rationalizations as to why things have changed so much since he dissappeared. And to see the lack of gratitude manifest as the lack of chastity to his instructions. We were nothing but a bunch of indolent western punks, yavanas and mlecchas, some sudra/vaisyas under Christ to some degree maybe. Reveling in our tiny false ego's and the liberties granted to us by our Imperial Tyrants of the Banker funded Corporate military industrial complex who pretended at Kingship, while we settled for their sloppy seconds.

 

So we are given the highest gift in the Three Worlds. The Bhakti Lata Bija. And it is so dormant, that we must hear with great submission, or our speaking will be dry, and the seed will never be watered. And if it sprouts, the most simple journey begins with our sukriti (minute if any) and our sincerity the only defense against instant attack by the forces of the Lord's most worthy opponent, Maha Maya.

 

And some of us by grace make a little advancement as neophytes and feel pretty good. And the next thing you know.

 

Now we can criticize the instructions of a divinely empowered being? Analyze and interpret them and offer that they mean the opposite of what they say?

 

Now we can interject into the conversations of those of his disciples who are still learning under his guidance, and poach them into some other circle just adding to their confusion?

 

Now we are Diksa Guru's with the potency to eradicate the sins of others?

 

 

The lack of care displayed around these issues is staggering in its depth and implication.

 

And what is plainly evident to me, is that when I painstakingly point out that what he said is what he said, and was what he meant, and does not actually confilct with essential siddhanta, and that his disciples can live a long spiritual life on his endless instructions to his spiritual family such as.

 

""Whatever is to be learned can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for outside instruction."

(Letter, December 25, 1973)

 

Someone steps up, not understanding that a family shares the inimate explicit instructions from their Savior and labels it faulty on some account, spinning that I am attempting to imply universality when it was really just a limited statement where an Acharya was nursing along an rank neophyte. Relegating anything not spoken in his books as automatically incongruous with such.

 

But why, when all I seek to do is state the obvious. Why when all I do is defend to maintain sanctity. Why, if someone who was just a meatsack of desires 20 years ago put themselves up as a Goswami and try to correct that which can actually be valid in certain intermediate situations?

 

Sheer lack of maturity and consolation in one's own practice is one answer. A head trip induced by a spiritual bypass to consider oneself, or one's Guru better than Srila Prabhupada while acting under the illusion that those trying to stick with Srila Prabhupada's program are actually the one's changing the "Essential Siddhanta" in order to explain their bogus ways.

 

If Srila Prabhupada said encouraging things, and gave slight indulgences in sadhana, is it not appropriate for his disciples to act upon them and grow from there. It is very easy to read the scriptures and conceptually see where this may be the case. But to speak it risks breaking the faith of the listener. And if one is not prepared to pick up the pieces by their own merit, this is a grave mistake. Even one at that stage would fear to tread upon the dynamics of a Spiritual families growth. Perhaps taking a lesson from Srila Prabhupada that one would with compassion meet us where we are at, with not a fraction of a motive to attempt to yank us to some higher plane prematurely.

 

Fakirs need not apply their wares for the wary are aware and not easily faked.

[renuka]

Try reading Srila Prabhupada'a books sincererly...

[rishibrahma]

 

the problem with the GBC guru system is that the success rate is very bad and the failure rate of gurus is very high.

 

I don't accept for a minute that Srila Prabhupada would accept or appreciate what they are doing now.

 

I am confident he would tell the GBC to "stop all initiatons immediatly".

 

He would have said that after about the second or third guru went down for the count.

 

There is no way that Srila Prabhupada approves of the GBC guru system and all this falling down of gurus.

 

ISKCON has gone off the deep end.

 

They are making a mockery out of the parampara system.

 

 

answer: Dearest Devotee

 

(plant the seed..then..) Rishibrahma

 

What you say is true..that mind is not qualified..because he has no aproach yet to the trascendence... and to the brahminic quallifications. Part of the mercy of the spiritual master is to take that soul to that atmosphere..and then when satisfaccion comes one becomes a eternal servant..of all the beautifull process of Krishna conciousness.

Vancha Kalpha...

sincerely Rishi brahma

[rishibrahma]

 

"keep planting the seeds, then put water , be patient , krishna takes the fruits"

 

When someone gets a seed and does not hear, but pretends to hear, only taking what will suit their personal agenda for power over others, Sravana never actually takes place.

 

People like this may have "read' all of the Books from a MahaBhagavat for this purpose and never sincerely practiced any of the instructions with the intent to grow spiritually, just made a show of it. All of it. They are not even kanistha yet.

 

Such a being is indeed has a role to play. They got their mercy. They are not interested in sravana, so they do not actually engage in Kirtan. Thus no water hits their seed. A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's personal Vapuh association could not influence them to truly hear. I don't see how anyone of us thinks that by "discussing" thing with them, we might change their mind.

 

No, it is going to take more than that for certain people to truly gain the desire to take instruction from another person besides their self.

 

Alot more.

 

thank you for the answer

signed rishi brahma

[theist]

Fakir,

 

I feel the same as you in many respects and in my own way. I know the talk you speak of and it really irritates the hell out me. Some people envision themselves as on a divine mission to replace Prabhupada with someone else as the central figure in the lives of Prabhupada's own disciples and general followers.

 

Now people are free to choose to hear from whoever they want. That is none of my business but when they keeping pushing their guru in my face and into the face of Prabhupada's disciples ,even I as a lay follower get pissed off. It is simply harrassment. We are very much on the same page here.

 

I didn't see the last post where you admitted your mistake on Paramatma being a person or I would not have addressed it in my later post. I often skip posts signed by "Guest".

 

In a previous post I shared my views on ultimate goals. You missed it or I need to elaborate on it. Basically while Paramatma realization is not our ultimate goal it is by the grace of Caitya-guru that we reach our goals even regardless. The spiritual master is to be seen as an external manifestation of the Lord in the heart afterall.

 

Haribol Fakir.

 

(Are you going to remain Fakir or change everytime?)