Why isn't there a Prabhupada Guru who comes to save me and gives me full shelter???

[Guest guest]

Theist,

 

Hari bol.

 

Fake it til we make it?

 

"Basically while Paramatma realization is not our ultimate goal it is by the grace of Caitya-guru that we reach our goals even regardless. The spiritual master is to be seen as an external manifestation of the Lord in the heart afterall."

 

If we are talking about, as individuals, our one eternal Spiritual Master who initiates us by his Grace into the eternal parampara, he represents Krsna who is Visnu-tattva. Paramatma is Visnu-tattva. Having transmuted his Kama-Manas long ago, the Spiritual Master can no longer be influenced by Maha Maya, and is considered a ray of Visnu. In this sense the individual who is the Spiritual Master is by realization and activity simultaneously one and different with Lord Krsna, and Paramatma.

 

So the Spiritual Master is the external representation of Sri Krsna's Personal expansion of Balarama who is the Initiating Spiritual Master as exemplified in Sri Nityananda. He is also the external representative of Caitya Guru. In this representation of one another, they display oneness.

 

But they are separate manifestations providing for the difference.

 

And thus it is a team effort.

 

So at some point, the highest devotional activity must be practiced, in which a Bhakta's siddha-deha and swarupa are revealed, either by Paramatma or the Spiritual Master. At that point, the Bhakta seeks to engage in worship and service of some other servant beyond Paramatma in order to gain solidify their identity and service in Bhagavan's Vaikuntha Lila or beyond.

 

With this in mind, if you and I can go beyond speaking of these things and actualize the moods and symptoms of such realization within the world of the sleeping Jiva's, we are then in a position to share this knowledge in a meaningful and beneficial way.

 

Until then, it has been a pleasure accepting your Siksa in the process of coming to conceptual clarity regarding Guru Tattva, and I remain somewhat of a Fakir.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

 

With this in mind, if you and I can go beyond speaking of these things and actualize the moods and symptoms of such realization within the world of the sleeping Jiva's, we are then in a position to share this knowledge in a meaningful and beneficial way. -Fakir

 

So true. By speaking of these things we keep our mind focused on them and thus our consciousness is positively effected.

 

Paramamta, the Supreme Soul is involved in every action that we perform through our bodies. From the simple act of lifting our hand to the various hormones running through our bodies and neurotramsitters traversing neuronal pathways at lightning speeds, He is involved and it all happens under His supervision.

 

So to is He involved at every step of our spiritual grow. In our past lives we may have made a little progress. So we take up where we left off. Supersoul remembers even though we forget and reestablishes us in a setting for our continued growth. How is it Srila Prabhupada was in New York city and yet he met up with certain individuals that became his disciples? Obvious by Krsna's arrangement. I remember this one picture of Jayananda Prabhu the first time he saw Srila Prabhupada. In San Francisco Srila Prabhupada was walking with a disciple on the street and someone was in front of them snapping pictures. This one photo showed Srila Prabhupada and a few steps behind him was Jayananda looking back at Srila Prabhupada having just walked past him. Jayananda have a look of utter bewilderment on his face as he looked back at Srila Prabhupada. Bewildered and astonishment like he had just passed another man from another planet. Which of course he had. Their passing in that way on that day was surely Krsna's arrangment. There was no GBC authorization to seek, it is all happening under transcendental arrangement.

 

So this always comes up when someone says, "How can I find a guru?". Now we can say, "Ask the GBC for a guru?" or "Go to Radha-kunda and look for a guru there." I prefer to say look towards the Lord in your heart to arrange the meeting between you and your spiritual master. Ask Him to lead you to His genuine representative. Ask Him for the needed sincerity in your search. Ask Him to protect you from being cheated. Amazing how much flack I get everytime.

 

On being a faker don't feel like the Lone Ranger. We are all wearing masks covering our real identity while pretending to be that which we are not.

 

"Who was that masked man?"

" I dunno and neither does he."

 

Ah, you are all too young to get that one. And if you do get it that is a sign that death is approaching soon, so get busy.

[Guest guest]

Dear Fakir,

 

I think my post stands on its own without your extrapolation and interpretation. I made some very simle points which I will restate for clarities sake:

 

1) Questions will and do arise for which the answers are not found in Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

This fact must be reconciled with the statements from letters which you provided to try to prove that his presence in his books is the same as his personal presence since the books can answer all questions. Of course from a philosophical point of view they do answer all questions in that they answer the one important question that can solve all problems - but from a practical point of view it is would be foolish to tell someone with an inquiry that is not answered in any of Srila Prabhupada's publications to just read the books and they will find the answer. I offered a way to reconcile the quotes with the facts which you apprarently don't agree with. Can you offer another?

 

2) The book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata are simultaneously one and different. The book points to the person. All books are written by persons yet the book Bhagavata is clear in pointing out the necessity of coming in contact with the person Bhagavata.

 

It is simply word jugglery to try to say that the person Bhagavata is present in the book so the book is really just saying to read the books! That is nonsense. Again - you are not only allowed to use your common sense - you are expected to. Books are passive - everyone will readily agree to that. People are active - everyone will also readily agree with that. A person will immediately answer a question you put before them. If you seek to get answers from a book you will have to dig and research on your own. I'm sure you have studied in high school and college. It takes a lot of effort to research and find information in the course books and also, the course books don't have all information on any given subject in them. The professor can answer questions that you have that answers can be found in the books and he/she can also answer questions whose answers are not found in the course books. That is so because he/she is an expert in the field. He/she can also clarify things in the course books that may not be clear because he/she has vast knowledge of the subject. This isn't the perfect analogy but it will suffice. The person Bhagavata is a realized soul who has divine experience. They have Krsna in their hearts and they can share that divine experience with others.

 

 

I am talking about principles here, not specifics. I am not advocating that anyone leave a particular sanga or any other such thing. I am merely pointing out the siddhanta regarding the person Bhagavata. There is too much confusion going on around these simple points. Vanih and Vapuh - instruction is all important - yes, but do you understand the instructions? Who will help you to understand? Who will remove your doubts? That is the person Bhagavata in whose heart Krsna has invested his svarupa shakti. The books are very clear on this point.

 

I have never said that any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples must seek shelter elsewhere. However I will say that the Guru is a universal principle and if a sadhaka has not progressed sufficiently under the care of their Guru before he/she departs - then it would definitely be beneficial to seek help from sadhakas who are more advanced. Really this principle is always there regardless of our standing in bhakti - we should always be looking for good company and the association of advanced vaishnavas so that we can make progress ourselves.

[krsna]

 

Then again, I am always very suspicious of any shastra, including the works of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, that have been translated by sadhakas who are depending on their knowledge of Bengali or Sanskrit as opposed to a fully realized soul who genuinely understands the full inner meaning and import of these revealed scriptures.

 

Putting faith in literal translations that have been rendered by sadhakas is always risky.

 

Genuine, self-realized acharyas know more than just language and grammar.

They have realized knowledge that many times allows them to undertand the shastra from a spiritual platform as opposed to a linguistic approach.

 

Literal translations do not take into consideration all the factors of time, place and audience. The whole process of parampara is that the successor acharya presents the shastra in the proper framework for the specific audience. This requires an empowered acharya. Linguistics cannot qualify one for presenting shastra properly according to the proper circumstances.

 

Religion means proper adjustment.

 

This is the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

Linguistics do not afford anyone the ability to make the proper adjustment according to the time, place and circumstance.

 

Without proper adjustment, religions becomes irreligion

 

 

 

"The worldly people generally cherish doubleness of heart or duplicity, speaking out one thing abroad and concealing a different thing inside. And the funny part of it is that they are anxious to present this doubleness of their heart to the public as liberality or the virtue of conciliation. These double-tongued men give to the creeds of persons, who are candid and do not adopt duplicity themselves, the designations of sectarianism, bigotry, etc. but we should only associate with those who are candid, and not with the others."

--Sri Caitanya's teachings, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada chapter 5, p 211

[Guest guest]

I have never met Audarya-lila but from reading his posts I consider that he is a very sincere devotee, and I don't aim to argue with his perspective. But I just wanted to comment on a couple of points, from my own experience of having (several) diksa gurus who themselves were western followers of Srila Prabhupada. The following points that jumped out at me from some of A-l's recent posts. He said:

 

"You cannot cheat Krsna. You may be able to fool other people and you may be very good at acting, but Krsna knows your true heart and intentions". [post #43]

 

"...our ability to understand and put those words into practice in our own lives is still hampered by our own low position. That is why Krsna agrees to be present before us as Sri Guru so that he can challenge us, correct us, encourage us, enlighten us, clarify things so that our fuzzy understandings become clear, etc. Without that we are left with our own minds and our own interpretations which are clouded by our conditioning." [post #48]

 

These points seem to me to be one-sided as they address the weaknesses of the aspiring disciple, but they neglect the fact that a person presenting themselves as a guru, in this day and age, may also "be able to fool other people" and "be very good at acting", and may also have their own "interpretations which are clouded by [their] conditioning". I think it is reasonable to assert that there are much stronger material motivations and incentives for someone to want to be a guru than for someone to want to find and serve a guru, so we should not be at all surprised in Kali yuga if there are very many people seeking to take a guru position for which they are unqualified, particularly if they can do so on the coat-tails of a respected Vaisnava of the previous generation or by dint of personal charisma, high intellect or other material resources.

 

If you accept that there are such things in the world as "conmen who pretend to be gurus" then obviously the strength of such a conman guru is that he is effective and plausible at conning people. And if one is being conned by a master in that skill, by definition one will not know that he is being conned. Indeed, arguably one's own sincerity may lead one to overlook and justify what other, less sincere people, have judged to be bogus behaviour. So the aspiring sadhaka is in a very precarious position.

 

I myself am not sincere - but I think I was once, a little, in the past, like others on this forum who have been fried by their "gurus". Now I personally have given up the quest for a living guru as I do not know how to avoid being conned. Yet I still believe the philosophy that a living guru is essential and reading a book by itself is insufficient.

 

Such is the catch-22 situation of people like me who give up the search and hope for better luck next lifetime, perhaps through some efforts as serving non-guru Vaisnavas and meagre efforts at sadhana.

[Guest guest]

The chances of finding a bona fide guru, considering the qualifications are so slim

and the consequences of receiving diksa from a cheater are so great

and the requirement for formal diksa is so questionable

 

 

why bother?

[muralidhar_das]

If you seriously search for a real Guru you will find one.

[krsna]

 

I have never met Audarya-lila but from reading his posts I consider that he is a very sincere devotee, and I don't aim to argue with his perspective. But I just wanted to comment on a couple of points, from my own experience of having (several) diksa gurus who themselves were western followers of Srila Prabhupada. The following points that jumped out at me from some of A-l's recent posts. He said:

 

"You cannot cheat Krsna. You may be able to fool other people and you may be very good at acting, but Krsna knows your true heart and intentions". [post #43]

 

"...our ability to understand and put those words into practice in our own lives is still hampered by our own low position. That is why Krsna agrees to be present before us as Sri Guru so that he can challenge us, correct us, encourage us, enlighten us, clarify things so that our fuzzy understandings become clear, etc. Without that we are left with our own minds and our own interpretations which are clouded by our conditioning." [post #48]

 

These points seem to me to be one-sided as they address the weaknesses of the aspiring disciple, but they neglect the fact that a person presenting themselves as a guru, in this day and age, may also "be able to fool other people" and "be very good at acting", and may also have their own "interpretations which are clouded by [their] conditioning". I think it is reasonable to assert that there are much stronger material motivations and incentives for someone to want to be a guru than for someone to want to find and serve a guru, so we should not be at all surprised in Kali yuga if there are very many people seeking to take a guru position for which they are unqualified, particularly if they can do so on the coat-tails of a respected Vaisnava of the previous generation or by dint of personal charisma, high intellect or other material resources.

 

If you accept that there are such things in the world as "conmen who pretend to be gurus" then obviously the strength of such a conman guru is that he is effective and plausible at conning people. And if one is being conned by a master in that skill, by definition one will not know that he is being conned. Indeed, arguably one's own sincerity may lead one to overlook and justify what other, less sincere people, have judged to be bogus behaviour. So the aspiring sadhaka is in a very precarious position.

 

I myself am not sincere - but I think I was once, a little, in the past, like others on this forum who have been fried by their "gurus". Now I personally have given up the quest for a living guru as I do not know how to avoid being conned. Yet I still believe the philosophy that a living guru is essential and reading a book by itself is insufficient.

 

Such is the catch-22 situation of people like me who give up the search and hope for better luck next lifetime, perhaps through some efforts as serving non-guru Vaisnavas and meagre efforts at sadhana.

 

 

 

ART OF SADHANA - Ch XV

by Srila B. P. Puri Goswami Maharaja

 

<HR align=center width=200 SIZE=1>

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE DISCIPLES MENTALITY

The word diksa refers to the process of surrendering to a spiritual master. The genuine spiritual master is one who is most dear to the Supreme Lord, one who is His intimate associate. A person who takes shelter of such a spiritual master is recognized by Krishna as one of His own. The Lord immediately bestows a transcendental body on such a surrendered soul and, in this body, the disciple has the good fortune to serve the divine form of the Lord. The primary characteristic of a disciple who has received initiation and direction in the practice of worship from his spiritual master is visrambha, an honest desire for faithful and loving service to the spiritual master, the Vaishnavas and the Supreme Lord. The secondary characteristic is that he seeks to destroy all his sinful activities.

The divya-jnana, the transcendental knowledge of sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana, is received by the disciple as part of initiation. The self-revealed scriptures, the Vedas, are the supreme authority (pramana) on spiritual subject matters. The scripture and the nine prameya (teachings) based on scripture are collectively called dasa-mula, the ten basic elements of spiritual knowledge. The nine prameya consist of the seven aspects of relationships (sambandha) -- Krishna Himself, Krishna's energies, Krishna's divine mood (rasa), the soul, its bondage and its liberation, and the inconceivable oneness and difference of the Lord and the individual soul. To these seven are added abhidheya, bhakti, and prayojana, love of God.

Along with all of this knowledge comes an important side effect: the destruction of one's sinful reactions. Thus the direct result of initiation is love for Krishna. Mahaprabhu confirms this in the following statement to His own spiritual master:

 

 

 

 

kiba mantra dile gosani kiba tara bala

japite japite mantra karila pagala

 

 

 

 

"What mantra have you given me, O gurudeva! What powers does it possess? As I chant this mantra, I feel that it is turning me into a madman."

(Chaitanya Charitamrta 1.7.81)

If one does not develop love for Krishna nor feels any attachment to the chanting of the Holy Names after being initiated, but remains inclined to sinful activities, falling down from time to time, it is then clear that either knowingly or unknowingly, that person has committed terrible offenses to the Lord, the guru or the Vaishnavas. One should then think: "I have only made a pretense of surrendering myself. I have used my initiation simply as an excuse to engage in sense gratificatory activities.":pray:

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"If one does not develop love for Krishna nor feels any attachment to the chanting of the Holy Names after being initiated, but remains inclined to sinful activities, falling down from time to time, it is then clear that either knowingly or unknowingly, that person has committed terrible offenses to the Lord, the guru or the Vaishnavas. One should then think: "I have only made a pretense of surrendering myself. I have used my initiation simply as an excuse to engage in sense gratificatory activities."

 

This is a philosophy that perfectly facilitates not only devotion to pure gurus but also to conmen gurus, as everything is "the disciple's fault". If a guru steals, murders, rackateers, fornicates, intoxicates, speculates - or more often nowadays simply fails to do sadhana, watches TV, canvasses for loans and reinterprets them as gifts, surrounds himself with attractive young "gurupies" (like rock star "groupies"), builds up a big bank balance, reads and writes for sense pleasure, and generally builds a comfortable life for himself and those close to him by PR and spin adverting to his superior inner bhakti - is all that is the disciple's fault too? Should the disciple look the other way, see it as lila, see it as inconceivable, see it as the result of their own bad karma being transferred to the guru?

 

Why can't we call a spade a spade? There are such things as conmen gurus and they are effective at conning people. It is an impossible situation for an aspiring disciple. After 25+ years of trying, how sensible is it to carry on in this hopeless quest for a Gaudiya Vaisnava guru in the western world?

[Vedesu]

 

This is a philosophy that perfectly facilitates not only devotion to pure gurus but also to conmen gurus, as everything is "the disciple's fault".

I do understand your healthy skepticism based on your personal experiences. However, the quote you were referring to made by Srila B.P. Puri Maharaja appears to be indicating something else; that of not developing a taste for the holy name due to offenses to either the Lord, the Guru, or the Vaishnavas. Ultimately, it is our fault if we fail to develop a taste for the holy name. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur said to "Look within." No doubt there are cheaters out there in the guise of gurus. But Krsna states in the Bhagavad Gita that he reciprocates in proportion to our surrender. Perhaps we cheated others in a previous life and we have to experience some temporary reactions to our misdeeds. But if we are truly sincere, then Krsna will ultimately send us a pure devotee to guide us. If we're merely looking for a mode of goodness lifestyle or a nice community support system, then we may encounter some detours along the path. Still, there is no loss or dimunition. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja used to preach that we should learn the art of crying; weeping for the Lord as we chant, with utter humility, urgency, and desparation. The Lord will be attracted by this appeal and will send one of His bona fide representatives to you. If you've been burned by ecclesiastical "gurus", then perhaps it is time to look elsewhere. Lord Chaitanya's Sankirtana Movement is well underway for those who have the eyes to see, and pure devotees are present on this planet.

[Guest guest]

 

If you seriously search for a real Guru you will find one.

Who wants 'a' guru. I want 'the' guru that will lead me all the way. In other words, one who is bona fide. Know any?

[Guest guest]

There are many bonafide gurus- within ISKCON, outside ISKCON (Sri Caitanya Saraswath Math & other maths) and many more. Are you really desperate to find one though? If you are, Krishna will arrange it.

 

 

Who wants 'a' guru. I want 'the' guru that will lead me all the way. In other words, one who is bona fide. Know any?

[Guest guest]

 

There are many bonafide gurus- within ISKCON

I'm not desperate. Why do I have to be?

Name a few. Of course I'll have to know that your anonymous post is bona fide... and round and round it goes.

[Guest guest]

Because if you're not desperate enough, there's a possibility that you may find a cheater guru.

 

 

I'm not desperate. Why do I have to be?

Name a few. Of course I'll have to know that your anonymous post is bona fide... and round and round it goes.

[Guruvani]

even if you take diksha from a guru that your are pleased with, it will not do any magic. it will not do some miracle that the other gurus haven't done.

 

the magic is in following the process, not in formal diksha.

 

you are going to be very disappointed if you think that taking diksha again from some so-called higher Vaishnava is going to do any magic.

It won't.

 

Just follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and you will experience the bliss of Krishna consciousness and then you will know what it is all about.

 

You don't need diksha again.

 

It's not going to change anything.

[krsna]

 

even if you take diksha from a guru that your are pleased with, it will not do any magic. it will not do some miracle that the other gurus haven't done.

 

the magic is in following the process, not in formal diksha.

 

you are going to be very disappointed if you think that taking diksha again from some so-called higher Vaishnava is going to do any magic.

It won't.

 

Just follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and you will experience the bliss of Krishna consciousness and then you will know what it is all about.

 

You don't need diksha again.

 

It's not going to change anything.

 

The Real Meaning of Diksa-Initiation

 

 

<XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt">"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge <XXX xxx="font-size: 10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt">by which he becomes freed from all material contamination. <XXXSPAN lang=FR xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;">" {Caitanya-<XXXSPAN lang=FR xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt;">caritamrta Madya-lila, <XXXSPAN lang=FR xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt;">4.111)

 

<XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt">"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species. " (Hari-bhakti-vilasa <XXX xxx="font-size: 10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt">2.6, cited in Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila, 15.108)

 

"The spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt">initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt">consciousness. <XXXSPAN lang=FR xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt;">" (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila <XXXSPAN lang=FR xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt;">9.61)

 

<XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black; letter-spacing:.1pt">"Unless one is initiated by the right person who always carries within his <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt">heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.2pt">carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one's own heart. " (Srimad-<XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt">Bhagavatam <XXX xxx="font-size: 10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt">10.2.18)

 

<XXX xxx="font-size: 10.0pt">

<XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt; color:black;letter-spacing:.1pt">The real diksa (initiation) is much more than a formal ceremony, it destroys the sins of the initiate (divya-jnana), and officially connects him to the disciplic <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black; letter-spacing:.2pt">succession. How can those who manufactured an elected guru system, connect <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing: .05pt">anyone to the sacred disciplic succession (parampara) — to Lord Krsna, or destroy <XXX xxx="font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing: .1pt">the sins of the initiate?

[Guest guest]

 

Because if you're not desperate enough, there's a possibility that you may find a cheater guru.

Where is it in sastra that one has to be desperate?

In any case where's the list of bona fide gurus? You need to back up your claim to be convincing.

[Guest guest]

Please read about Srila BhaktiSidhanta Saraswati Thakur's attempts to get initiation where he succeeds after overcoming many difficulties. You'll understand the point about being desperate.

 

Hopefully, someone can post a link.

 

 

Where is it in sastra that one has to be desperate?

In any case where's the list of bona fide gurus? You need to back up your claim to be convincing.

[Guest guest]

 

Please read about Srila BhaktiSidhanta Saraswati Thakur's attempts to get initiation where he succeeds after overcoming many difficulties. You'll understand the point about being desperate.

 

Hopefully, someone can post a link.

That doesn't prove that one has to be desperate. That is one anecdote. Not sastra.

[Guruvani]

 

Please read about Srila BhaktiSidhanta Saraswati Thakur's attempts to get initiation where he succeeds after overcoming many difficulties. You'll understand the point about being desperate.

 

Hopefully, someone can post a link.

 

duh,

Srila Saraswati Thakur was working on a plan to in fact create what we call the "Saraswata" branch of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

Of course he needed some formal diksha to satisfy critics and future generations of disciples.

 

He didn't need formal diksha to perfect his spiritual life which was already perfected as the son of Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Why little people today think that we all have to live up to some standard that founders of sampradayas set for themselves is quite amuzing.

 

The always say "well Ragunatha das Goswami did this or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did that".

 

the fact is that Mahaprabhu came to deliver the whole world.

 

It is impossible to think that he required formal diksha from every soul in the world that he wanted to deliver.

 

The descriptions of Mahaprabhu is that wherever he went there was a flood of love of Krishna.

That was not some mass formal initiation that he was giving millions of souls who were drowned in the tidal wave of love of God that followed Mahaprabhu around.

 

Mahaprabhu is still here leading the Sankirtan movement all over the world.

 

Many souls will be delivered and attain love of Krishna without some formal diksha by some so-called guru who needs disciples to maintain a livelyhood.

 

Just follow Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement and if the right time and the place to get formal diksha comes up then that is just fine.

 

If it doesn't you can still attain love of Krishna without formal diksha.

 

Following the process is most important.

If you do that, then maybe Mahaprabhu will send you a formal diksha guru - maybe he won't.

 

Just chant Hare Krishna and don't worry about the formalities for now.

[krsna]

 

duh,

Srila Saraswati Thakur was working on a plan to in fact create what we call the "Saraswata" branch of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

Of course he needed some formal diksha to satisfy critics and future generations of disciples.

 

He didn't need formal diksha to perfect his spiritual life which was already perfected as the son of Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Why little people today think that we all have to live up to some standard that founders of sampradayas set for themselves is quite amuzing.

 

The always say "well Ragunatha das Goswami did this or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did that".

 

the fact is that Mahaprabhu came to deliver the whole world.

 

It is impossible to think that he required formal diksha from every soul in the world that he wanted to deliver.

 

The descriptions of Mahaprabhu is that wherever he went there was a flood of love of Krishna.

That was not some mass formal initiation that he was giving millions of souls who were drowned in the tidal wave of love of God that followed Mahaprabhu around.

 

Mahaprabhu is still here leading the Sankirtan movement all over the world.

 

Many souls will be delivered and attain love of Krishna without some formal diksha by some so-called guru who needs disciples to maintain a livelyhood.

 

Just follow Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement and if the right time and the place to get formal diksha comes up then that is just fine.

 

If it doesn't you can still attain love of Krishna without formal diksha.

 

Following the process is most important.

If you do that, then maybe Mahaprabhu will send you a formal diksha guru - maybe he won't.

 

Just chant Hare Krishna and don't worry about the formalities for now.

 

I want to know what happened to Sri KRSNA Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement that I can't find any 'living' representatives who can give me spiritual shelter?

 

Prabhupada means SHELTER -where all PRABHUs can take and FIND shelter at his PADA -lotus feet. Is it not?

 

 

"The idea of an organised church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of a living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dykes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bonafide spiritual teacher.":pray:

 

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, The Harmonist, January 1929)

[Guest guest]

Thank you thank you thank you for that wonderful conclusive quote by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada. It has removed a terrible weight from my heart.

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

"The idea of an organised church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of a living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dykes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bonafide spiritual teacher.":pray:

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, The Harmonist, January 1929)

 

 

This is one of the most abused and misunderstood statements I have ever seen.

 

When Srila Saraswati Thakur said "CHURCH" he was obviously talking about the Christian church.

 

SINCE WHEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA HAS A MATHA OR VAISHNAVA INSTITUTION BEEN CALLED A CHURCH?

 

CHURCH refers to the Christian bigots not to ISKCON or some Vaishnava institution.

 

There is not and never was any CHURCH of Vaishnavas and I wish people would quit abusing this quote to try and demean the institutions established by Vaishnava acharyas.

[Guest guest]

 

This is one of the most abused and misunderstood statements I have ever seen.

 

When Srila Saraswati Thakur said "CHURCH" he was obviously talking about the Christian church.

 

SINCE WHEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA HAS A MATHA OR VAISHNAVA INSTITUTION BEEN CALLED A CHURCH?

 

CHURCH refers to the Christian bigots not to ISKCON or some Vaishnava institution.

 

There is not and never was any CHURCH of Vaishnavas and I wish people would quit abusing this quote to try and demean the institutions established by Vaishnava acharyas.

 

ISKCON refers to itself as a church and its member (brahmanas) as priests.

Furthermore it has created a division between clergy (devotees) and laity (congregation) and schedules weddings, funerals etc for money... just like a Christian church. It has fully embraced the rites of clericism and all the self-appointed authority and corruption that it implies.

[Guruvani]

 

ISKCON refers to itself as a church and its member (brahmanas) as priests.

Furthermore it has created a division between clergy (devotees) and laity (congregation) and schedules weddings, funerals etc for money... just like a Christian church. It has fully embraced the rites of clericism and all the self-appointed authority and corruption that it implies.

 

Srila Prabhupada never referred to ISKCON as a church and ISKCON didn't even exist when Srila Saraswati Thakur wrote his statements.

 

ISKCON is NOT A CHURCH.

 

Show me one time that Srila Prabhupada ever referred to ISKCON as a church.

 

I don't care what these insane GBC people have said about ISKCON.

Their words are worse than useless.

 

ISKCON is an association of devotees.

 

It is not a church.

 

Church is a Christian term and there are no deities in a Church.

 

ISKCON is temples and ashrams.

 

If Srila Saraswati Thakur was talking about an ashram or a temple he would have used the proper terms.

 

He said "church" and he was talking about churches and not about ashrams and temples.

 

only a fool would say that Saraswati Thakur was criticizing the Vaishnava ashrams and temples.