Liberation and Nirvikalpa Samadhi

June 22, 2006

Dear Advaitins,

Namaste,

I am hearing lectures of a very poplular vedantic acharya. He has

studied scriptures for a considerable lenght of time and infact in

many aspect he is very clear and expounds sastras beautifully. But i

recently heard his comment that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not a pre-

requisite for liberation. This state of his preplexed me a little. If

we see the lives of proponents of vedanta like Sri Shankaracharya,

Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Swami Vivekannada or Samartha

Ramadas we have to accept that they experiecned nirvikalpa samadhi

and after that only their teachings begun. Even though it is true

that even at this time we are none but atman strictly speaking it is

but pure faith only. It is not jnana or aparokshanobhuti as we have

not experienced that unitery existence. Whatever may be our faith in

the guru and sastras untill and unless we realise we are sadhakas and

not siddhas. In the scriptures also as far as my knowledge goes

untill the samadhi is experience the jiva cannot escape the

transmigratory existence. One of the chief disciples of Sri

Ramakrishna Swami Brahmananda says that true religious life begins

only after nirvikalpa samadhi.

I remember once hearing the lecture of senior diciple of Swami

Chinmayanadaji had told one reminiscence related to this topic. Once

somebody after the course of lecture asked maharaj whehter he is

realised soul or not. Chinmayanandaji gave a very bold and sincere

reply that he is not. But he told that he is trying to realise it

with his own methods.

I fear the statement of the acharya is a deviation from the

scriptural teachings? Coments of the learned members of the group are

welcome.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

June 23, 2006

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> Namaste,

>

> I am hearing lectures of a very poplular vedantic acharya. He has

> studied scriptures for a considerable lenght of time and infact in

> many aspect he is very clear and expounds sastras beautifully. But i

> recently heard his comment that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not a pre-

> requisite for liberation. This state of his preplexed me a little.

Dear sir,

I think it is rather the other way about. That is to

say mere nirvikalpa samadhi is not sufficient for the ushering in of

the permanent state of abidance in the self, the samdhi being merely

superior to sleep in that the individual is absorbed in the light in

samadhi, whereas it is not so in the case of sleep. It is possible to

enter into samadhi without having a true knowledge of the self. In the

same vein it is possible to have deep intellectual knowledge based on

sastric study, without the experience of samadhi. However, though the

nirvikalpa samadhi is not the touchstone to determine that one has

arrived, it is a sine qua non, a definite precursor, to the ensuing

experience of the self. Nirvikalpa samadhi is only the lower level of

understanding of the non-experience of the sensory objects, whereas

the exalted state is that of the sahaja. Sleep, nirvikalpa samadhi,

kevala kumbaka, and finally, the sahaja state-all these things have

been beautifully explained by Ramana Maharishi. Further, the works,

Tirupura Rahasya and yoga vasishta, contain a lot of information on

this topic. Nirvikalpa is the first stage of experience of the fact

that one's locus is not either the body or the anthakaranas, but

something beyond time and space. Without this experience, it is not

possible to realise the self. Sage Patanjali explains all this

beautifully in the yogasutras. But mere absorption is not self-

realization. Patanjali calls those who are merely absorbed in the void

of Prakrti as Prakrit lina purusas; whereas those who have realized

the self have understood the self to be a state in which even the

Prakrti is an illusion. Patanjali describes the experience of those

who are stuck up in the state of Prakriti as something like being

obstructed by a cloud in the vision of the beyond. To say that the

experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not necessary for the realization

of the Self, is tantamount to asserting that the mere thought process

is sufficint to knwow the truth, whereas self-knowledge is

annihilating the mind, existing as a seperate entity, and abiding in

the natural state of the self, and not knowing anything new. It will

be better if you could explain the context in which the gentleman made

the revelation that the experience of nirvikalpa is not needed for the

abidance in the natural state, so that we can try to understand the

further implication of that. What the gentleman says is relevant only

to the born siddhas like Ramana and not for ordinary individuals

parading mere intellectual knowledge and having prentensions of the

experience of the self.

yours ever in Bhaghavan

June 23, 2006

advaitin, "shnkaran" <shnkaran wrote:

> However, though the

> nirvikalpa samadhi is not the touchstone to determine that one has

> arrived, it is a sine qua non, a definite precursor, to the

ensuing

> experience of the self. Nirvikalpa samadhi is only the lower level

of

> understanding of the non-experience of the sensory objects,

whereas

> the exalted state is that of the sahaja. Sleep, nirvikalpa

samadhi,

> kevala kumbaka, and finally, the sahaja state-all these things

have

> been beautifully explained by Ramana Maharishi.

Dear Sir,

This is exactly which all the masters of advaita has told about.

Swami vivekananda was pestering Sri Ramakrishna to bless him so that

he can contineously dwell in the nirvikalpa samadhi Sri Ramakrishna

told him the same thing that there is a much heigher state than the

nirvikalpa state. One point to be noted here that he was able to

acheive heigher realisations only after experiencing nirvikalpa

state. But i think it is wrong on anybody's part to tell that one

can jump over to the exalted stage of sahaja without nirvikalpa

samadhi. As you quoted it is a definite precursor to the heigher

levels of realisation.

I will try to carefully go through the lecture and try to give you

in exact context what he opined about samadhi.But sir it will take

some time.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka.

June 23, 2006

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> Namaste,

>

> I am hearing lectures of a very poplular vedantic acharya. He has

> studied scriptures for a considerable lenght of time and infact in

> many aspect he is very clear and expounds sastras beautifully. But

i

> recently heard his comment that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not a pre-

> requisite for liberation. This state of his preplexed me a little.

If

> we see the lives of proponents of vedanta like Sri Shankaracharya,

> Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Swami Vivekannada or Samartha

> Ramadas we have to accept that they experiecned nirvikalpa samadhi

> and after that only their teachings begun. Even though it is true

> that even at this time we are none but atman strictly speaking it

is

> but pure faith only. It is not jnana or aparokshanobhuti as we have

> not experienced that unitery existence. Whatever may be our faith

in

> the guru and sastras untill and unless we realise we are sadhakas

and

> not siddhas. In the scriptures also as far as my knowledge goes

> untill the samadhi is experience the jiva cannot escape the

> transmigratory existence. One of the chief disciples of Sri

> Ramakrishna Swami Brahmananda says that true religious life begins

> only after nirvikalpa samadhi.

>

> I remember once hearing the lecture of senior diciple of Swami

> Chinmayanadaji had told one reminiscence related to this topic.

Once

> somebody after the course of lecture asked maharaj whehter he is

> realised soul or not. Chinmayanandaji gave a very bold and sincere

> reply that he is not. But he told that he is trying to realise it

> with his own methods.

>

> I fear the statement of the acharya is a deviation from the

> scriptural teachings? Coments of the learned members of the group

are

> welcome.

>

> JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

>

> Yours in the lord,

>

> Br. Vinayaka

>

Dear Advaitins,

Namaste Br. Vinayaka ji,

The question is of vital value and needs to be answered considering

various aspects. The Upanishadic teaching on this is quite clear:

Atma vaa arey drashtavyaH, shrotavyaH, mantavyaH, nididhyAsitavyaH

(Brihadaranyaka Upanishad ii.iv.5)

Dear Maitreyi, Atman has to be beheld (realized). It has to be

heard, ratiocinated and meditated upon.

The Acharya comments on this:

Atman is to be made the object of Realisation. (How is this to be

accomplished?) It has to be heard first, from the Acharya and the

Shastra. Then it has to be ratiocinated upon (using tarka, logic,

its nature has to be ascertained). Thereafter it has to be meditated

upon with the ascertainment had earlier as the basis. By this process

indeed does Atman become realized. When these three are undertaken

as a composite practice, then samyagdarshanam, the realization of the

unitary nature of Brahman comes about, not otherwise by shravanam

alone. (unquote)

Anandagiri clarifies: Since shravana is the enquiry upon the pramana

(the Upanishad), it is primary. As being the cause of the dispelling

the obstacles to knowledge, Mananam and nididhyasanam are

subsidiary. In this manner when sravana, manana and nididhyasana are

practiced repeatedly for long in a composite manner, then due to the

strengthening of the means, then tattvajnanam becomes endowed with

its fruit. In the absence of manana and nididhyasana, by shravana

alone it never comes about. When the obstacles remain undispelled by

manana and nididhyasana, the Vedanta vaakyam will be incapable of

generating the fruitful knowledge. (unquote).

It could be noted that nowhere is the third means, nididhyasanam,

ignored.

The following is a quote from a dialogue between Sri Abhinava

Vidyateertha SwaminaH, a great Yogi and Jivanmukta of the Sringeri

Sharada Peetham and His disciple, Sri R.M. Umesh, himself a Yogi and

jivanmukta. The quote is taken from the chapter 'Nirvikalpa Samadhi'

from the book Exalting Elucidations:

Disciple: Will a single experience of nirvikalpa Samadhi (NS) be

sufficient to attain brahma jnana?

Acharya: Normally, it is not sufficient. During NS the Atman is

experienced. After emergence from that state, the experience

gradually begins to fade. However, just after coming down from it,

everything is perceived as Atman. Nothing distinct from the Atman is

discerned. To cite an example, one feels, 'I am a big ocean. It is

in me that the bubbles constituted by the world are produced.' The

experience of NS must be had to be understood. Verbal descriptions

are woefully inadequate. If one gets the experience of NS repeatedly,

one's jnana becomes stable. After the realization becomes stable,

the mind is destroyed and one becomes a jivanmukta.

……….

Disciple: Can one attain jnana without experiencing Nirvikalpa

Samadhi?

Acharya: Jnana is nothing but the knowledge of one's True nature.

Technically, it can be obtained even through just vichara (enquiry).

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a wonderful means but it is improper to say

that it is the only means.

End of quote.

(Note: Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha SwaminaH had attained the highest

state of Yoga, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, before He was 20.)

>From the above dialogue it is clear that although technically

realization could be obtained even through just vichara, the

stability of jnana and jivanmukti depend chiefly on the practice of

Samadhi.

Here is another quote, from the book 'Crest Jewel of Yogis' written

by Sri R.M.Umesh. The quote is from the Chapter titled 'An Ideal

Disciple', page 92 of Vol. I:

There were even times when Paramacharyal's (Sri Chandrashekhara

Bharati SwaminaH) transition from the normal to the other state took

place rather abruptly as when He was on His way across the Tunga. He

would start casting off His clothes and like an Avadhuta saunter

unconcerned. Acharyal (Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha SwaminaH) would

rush spare clothing to Him to prevent a commotion. This apart, He

used to constantly look to Paramacharyal's needs when the latter was

absorbed in His moods of seclusion. Some authors have held that

Paramacharyal used to remain in Nirvikalpa Samadhi during such

periods. I have it on the authority of Acharyal that such was not

the case and He has even told me, 'I have never had the privilege of

seeing My Acharyal in Samadhi. HIS WAS THE PATH OF ENQUIRY.

(emphasis mine – Subbu)Unquote.

Here is a quotation from the Jivanmuktiviveka of Sage Vidyaranya.

The portion appears in the chapter on 'On the Dissolution of the

mind – manonaashaprakaranam':

It should not be understood that the interception-Concentration

(nirodha Samadhi) is the only means, whereby the pure substratum of

the ego could be realized. For, SUCH REALIZATION IS ALSO POSSIBLE BY

A PROCESS OF CAREFUL DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN AND SEPARATION OF SPIRIT

AND MATTER. Hence does Vasishtha say:

'O Raghava! yoga and Gnosis are the two paths leading to the

dissolution of the mind: yoga consists in intercepting

transformations of the mind, and Gnosis in the proper viewing of

things. To some yoga is unattainable, while to others is denied the

capacity to judge aright;-hence, the Supreme Lord prescribed these

two paths. (Laghuyogavaasishtha 27.72; 29.60)End quote.

We see Yoga/samadhi prescribed in the Upanishads:

In the Kathopanishad we have: Yacched vaangmanasii praajnaH ……

1-III-13. Let the wise man merge speech in his mind, merge that

(mind) into the intelligent self and the intelligent self into the

Mahat. (Let him then) merge the Mahat into the peaceful Self.

IN the Maitrayani Upanishad we have (AS QUOTED IN THE Panchadashi

chapter XI):

110. In the Maitrayani Upanishad of the Yajur Veda, sage Sakayanya

spoke of the great bliss experienced in Samadhi to the royal sage

Brihadratha while discoursing on Samadhi.

111. `As fire without fuel dies down and becomes latent in its

cause, so the mind, when its modifications have been silenced, merges

in its cause'.

112. `To the mind fixed on Reality, merged in its cause and

impervious to the sensations arising from the sense-objects, the joys

and sorrows (together with their occasions and materials) experienced

as a result of the fructifying Karma seem unreal'.

113. `The mind is indeed the world. It should be purified with

great effort. It is an ancient truth that the mind assumes the forms

of the objects to which it is applied.'

114. `Through the purification of his mind a man destroys the

impressions of his good and evil Karma and the purified mind abiding

in Atman enjoys undiminishing bliss'.

115. `If a man were to focus his mind on Brahman, as he commonly

does on the objects of senses, what bondage would he not be free

from ?'

116. `Mind has been described as of two types, pure and impure.

The impure is that which is tainted by desires, the pure is that

which is free from desires'.

117. `The mind alone is the cause of bondage and release.

Attachment to objects leads to bondage and freedom from attachment to

them leads to release'.

118. `The bliss arising from absorption in the contemplation of

the Self, when all sins and taints are washed off through the

practice of Samadhi, cannot be described in words. One must feel it

in one's own heart'.

The Gita Sixth Chapter gives a whole lot of message on the practice

and fruit of meditation.

All this point to the fact that what is crucially required is the

focusing of the mind on the Atman. And focusing occurs through

meditation alone, to the exclusion of engaging in other activities.

To the extent one has this, the abidance in Self is greatly

experienced by him.

The Avidya-destroying, liberating Akhandakaravritti takes place only

in a mind that is keenly focused, to the exclusion of all other

anatma vrittis.

The Brahmasutra bhashya (IV.1.1,2) does admit the occurrence of

sakshatkara by shravana alone; this being occasioned by an extremely

pure and prepared mind. A case in point is Janaka. He happened to

hear the Siddhagita sung by some Siddhas in a lonely place. Just

upon hearing song, he is said to have become realized. This is a

very rare happening. Here the inference is that what sadhana

required to quieten the mind was already done by him in a previous

life. But in all other cases the mind will have to be focused with

sustained effort.

The Vivekachudamani 361 says:

atIva sUkShmam paramArthatattvam

na sthUladRiShTyA pratipattumarhati|

samadhinA atyanta susUkShmavrittyaa

jnaatavyam aaryaiH atishuddhabuddhibhiH ||

The reality of the supreme self is extremely subtle and is not

capable of being experienced by those of coarse vision, but it can be

known by those worthy of it by reason of their very pure

understanding by means of a mind made extremely subtle by

meditation.

The commentary of Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati SwainaH, in part, for

the above is:

(samaadhinaa) = atyanta sUkshmaa prapancha-avishayakatayaa, (AryaiH)

= shrutismrityukta-maargagaiH, yaa vrittiH tayaa, jnaatavyam =

vishayiikartavyam. = That mental mode which is extremely subtle being

freed from any wordly objectification, by those treading the path as

instructed by the Vedas and Smritis, by such a subtle vritti the

Atman has to be known, made an object of apprehension.

All this shows the indispensability of an extremely subtle mind.

This is possible only through meditation. Whether we call it

nididhyasanam or Samadhi or dhyanam, the object is the same:

rendering the mind extremely pure and subtle so as to enable it to

grasp the Atman AND stabilize the realization and experience

Jivanmukti.

Some speakers on Vedanta have openly criticized NS as being

unnecessary for liberation, that it belongs to Yoga shastra and as

such un-Vedantic, etc. What is not perhaps noticed by them is that

the term Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not occurring in the Yoga Shastra.

Samadhi is spoken of in the Mahabharatha, the Agni and other

Puranas. Several Upanishads speak of Samadhi. It is wrong to deem

it as un-Vedantic.

What is of pivotal importance is the presence of supreme Vairagyam.

Without a high degree of vairagyam, deep meditation or intense

discrimination is impossible. The practice of deep meditation leaves

one with increased poise of mind and renders the mind to retain Atman-

contemplation. The Acharya, Shankara, in His Sadhana Panchakam fifth

verse says:

Ekaante sukhamaasyatAm paratarE chetassamAdhIyataam

PUrNAtmaa susamIkShyatAm jagadidam tad baadhitam dRiShyatAm

(Take to seclusion with ease and engage the mind in the deep

meditation of the Supreme…)

The person with supreme vairagyam, when not in Samadhi also is

unaffected by the world of duality. Let me conclude this post with a

quote from the book 'Crest Jewel of Yogis'(Vol.II)p.163 of the

chapter on 'Experiences of Devotees). This experience is that of

Sri.R.M.Umesh, narrated in His own words:

In May 1974, Acharyal's grace led me to a major milestone in my

spiritual discipline. Roughly ten days prior to my departure from

Sringeri, Acharyal called me to accompany Him for a walk up the

Kaalabhairava hill. The attendant had gone in front and so there was

no one with Acharyal at that time except myself. Addressing Acharyal

I said, 'By Acharyal's blessings I am repeatedly able to get the

meditative state which Acharyal has subsequently identified as

Nirvikalpa Samadhi. When I come down from that state, as I have told

Acharyal earlier, I feel as if there is nothing apart from me. This

experience, however, is not steady. It fades away after a while and

I would like Acharyal's benediction for that state to become

steady.' Acharyal looked upon me with compassionate eyes and then

said, 'After you complete your engineering studies that state shall

become steady.'

So unlimited is His mercy that just a few days after making this

statement, He told me of His own accord, 'Your surrender to Me has

generated satisfaction. I bless you that that state become steady

from now on.' Can the blessings of the omnipotent One ever be in

vain? What He said came to pass and the steadiness of the experience

continues to this day. I regard that moment as the culmination of a

blessing He had given years ago when I had prayed to Him for pure

devotion. He had said, 'Abidance in the Self is indeed considered

the highest devotion. May you have that true devotion.'

End of quote.

Pranams,

subbu

June 24, 2006

advaitin,

"subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v wrote:

> In May 1974, Acharyal's grace led me to a major milestone in my

> spiritual discipline. Roughly ten days prior to my departure from

> Sringeri, Acharyal called me to accompany Him for a walk up the

> Kaalabhairava hill. The attendant had gone in front and so there

was

> no one with Acharyal at that time except myself. Addressing

Acharyal

> I said, 'By Acharyal's blessings I am repeatedly able to get the

> meditative state which Acharyal has subsequently identified as

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi. When I come down from that state, as I have

told

> Acharyal earlier, I feel as if there is nothing apart from me.

This

> experience, however, is not steady. It fades away after a while

and

> I would like Acharyal's benediction for that state to become

> steady.' Acharyal looked upon me with compassionate eyes and then

> said, 'After you complete your engineering studies that state shall

> become steady.'

>

> So unlimited is His mercy that just a few days after making this

> statement, He told me of His own accord, 'Your surrender to Me has

> generated satisfaction. I bless you that that state become steady

> from now on.' Can the blessings of the omnipotent One ever be in

> vain? What He said came to pass and the steadiness of the

experience

> continues to this day. I regard that moment as the culmination of

a

> blessing He had given years ago when I had prayed to Him for pure

> devotion. He had said, 'Abidance in the Self is indeed considered

> the highest devotion. May you have that true devotion.'

> End of quote.

>

> Pranams,

> subbu

Dear Subbuji,

Nimma arthapurna uttarakke Tumba dhanyavadagalu!!(Hope you understand

kannada):-))

Yes. It is true that one can realise the reality through shravana

alone. There was a saint called Sadguru Sridhara Swami Maharaj. He

was doing his sadhana in the sajjangad where the samadhi of Sri

Samrtha Ramdas is there. His chief sadhana was rama nama japa

thinking rama is none other than sachitdananda atma swarupa. After

some time he had the vision of his guru Samartha Ramadas and he

intiated into vedantic teaching by telling mahavakya Tat Twam Asi and

he blessed him by touching his head. Immediately the very next day

Swamiji Sat in meditation and he attained nirvikalpa samadhi and

dwelled in that state for 3 days.He did not practice any other kind

of meditation or ashtanga yoga.

What is my understanding is whehter an aspirant follows ashtanga yoga

or shravana, manana and nididyasana the culmination and key to

realisation is through Nirvikalpa samadhi alone. Even as you have

mentioned in the aboue discussion the steadfastness in the

realisation is possible only thourgh contineous dwelling in that

stage which leads to heigher state or sahaja after which there is no

fear of falling back. Chief Diciple of Sri Ramakrishna Swami

Brhamananda was practicing austirities in the banks of narmada. His

attendant once asked you have achieved the heighest state in the

precense of your guru but why are you doing sahana now. His reply was

i am trying to stabilise myself in the state which which i

experiecned by the grace of the guru.

Secondly as you have stated

Some speakers on Vedanta have openly criticized NS as being

unnecessary for liberation, that it belongs to Yoga shastra and as

such un-Vedantic, etc. What is not perhaps noticed by them is that

the term Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not occurring in the Yoga Shastra.

Samadhi is spoken of in the Mahabharatha, the Agni and other

Puranas. Several Upanishads speak of Samadhi. It is wrong to deem

it as un-Vedantic.

This is very sad part.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEERA SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka.

P.S.My native plcace is just 200 kms from Sringeri. Temple of divine

mother there is one of my most coveted place of pilgrimage. I always

feel her special blessings on me why me alone she is bestowing

knowledge and devotion to all sincere sadhakas wether they are aware

of it or not.

June 24, 2006

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

>

>>

> Dear Subbuji,

>

> Nimma arthapurna uttarakke Tumba dhanyavadagalu!!(Hope you

understand

> kannada):-))

>

Namaste Br.Vinayaka ji,

Kannada ballavane naanu.

Apart from the portions on Samadhi, it was my intention to convey the

message contained in this:

Disciple: Can one attain jnana without experiencing Nirvikalpa

Samadhi?

Acharya: Jnana is nothing but the knowledge of one's True nature.

Technically, it can be obtained even through just vichara (enquiry).

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a wonderful means but it is improper to say

that it is the only means.

Warm Regards,

subbu

June 24, 2006

advaitin,

"subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v wrote:

> Disciple: Can one attain jnana without experiencing Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi?

>

> Acharya: Jnana is nothing but the knowledge of one's True nature.

> Technically, it can be obtained even through just vichara (enquiry).

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a wonderful means but it is improper to say

> that it is the only means.

>

> Warm Regards,

> subbu

Dear Sir,

To be frank with you this point i am hearing for the first time. This

is one of the subtlest and profoundest question in the quest of the

atman. As it has been said by Acharya we should carefully study it

and arrive at conclusion with due reverence. I will try to find out

what Bhagavan Ramana/Sri Ramakrishna have told about this. If any

member can post what other masters of advaita vedanta has opined

about this with the reference to the source it would be of great help.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

YOurs in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

June 24, 2006

Namaste Advaitins,

Some passages from Sri Ramana below, on this subject.

Warm regards,

Peter

-----

M.: Divine sight means Self-luminosity. The world divya shows it. The full

word means the Self. Who is to bestow a divine eye? And who is to see?

Again, people read in the books, "hearing, reflection and one-pointedness

are necessary". They think that they must pass through savikalpa samadhi

and nirvikalpa samadhi before attaining Realisation. Hence all these

questions. Why should they wander in that maze? What do they gain at the

end? It is only cessation of the trouble of seeking. They find that the Self

is eternal and self-evident. Why should they not get that repose even this

moment? A simple man, not learned, is satisfied with japa or worship. A

Jnani is of course satisfied. The whole trouble is for the book-worms.

Well, well. They will also get on. (Talks 336)

-

Disciple: I maintain that the physical body of the man immersed in samadhi,

as a result of the unbroken 'contemplation' of the Self, may become

motionless for that reason. It may be active or inactive. The mind

established in such contemplation will not be affected by the movements of

the body or the senses; nor is there disturbance of the mind, the

forerunner of physical activity. Whereas another person asserts that

physical activity certainly prevents samadhi or unbroken contemplation. What

is Bhagavan's opinion? You are the abiding proof of my statement.

Maharshi: Both of you are right: you refer to sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi and

the other refers to kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. In the latter case the mind

lies immersed in the Light of the Self (whereas the mind lies in the

darkness of ignorance in deep sleep); and the subject makes a distinction

between samadhi and activity after waking up from samadhi. Moreover,

activity of the body, of the sight, of the vital forces, and of the mind and

the cognizance of objects, all these are obstructions for one who seeks to

realize kevala nirvikalpa samadhi.

In sahaja samadhi, however, the mind has resolved into the Self and has been

lost. The differences and obstructions mentioned above do not, therefore,

exist here. The activities of such a Being are like the feeding of a

somnolent boy, perceptible to the onlooker but not to the subject. The

traveller sleeping in the moving cart is not aware of the motion of the

cart, because his mind is sunk in darkness; whereas the sahaja jnani remains

unaware of his bodily activities because his mind is dead, having been

resolved into the ecstasy of chidananda (bliss of Self).

The two words contemplation and samadhi have been used loosely in the

question. Contemplation is a forced mental process, whereas samadhi lies

beyond effort.

(From Maharshi's Gospel, published by Sri Ramanasramam and available for

download from http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ )

-----------------------------

"... why change the environment? Your efforts can be made even now, in

whatever environment you may be. The environment never abandons you,

according to your desire. Look at me. I left home. Look at yourselves. You

have come here leaving the home environment. What do you find here? Is this

different from what you left? Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa samadhi

for years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the

environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the Acharya

emphasising sahaja samadhi in preference to nirvikalpa samadhi in his

excellent work Viveka Chudamani. One should be in spontaneous samadhi - that

is, in one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment." (From

"Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi", Talk 54)

----------------------------

A question was asked regarding the position of one whose jnana is weak in

the scheme of things. The doubt was if that manda Jnani had stopped short of

kevala nirvikalpa.

M.: Kevala nirvikalpa happens even in the tanumanasi stage (of attenuated

mind).

D.: The middling and superior jnanis are said to be jivanmuktas. Kevala

nirvikalpa is in tanumanasa. Where does one whose jnana is weak fit in?

M.: He comes in sattvapatti (realisation) - whereas the middling and the

superior ones come in asamsakti and padarthabhavini respectively. This

division as dull, middling, and superior is according to the momentum of

prarabdha. If it is strong he is weak; if it is middling he is middling too;

if prarabdha is weak he is superior; if it is very weak he is in turyaga.

There is no difference in the samadhi state or the jnana of the jnanis. The

classification is only from the standpoint of the observer. (Talks 255)

---------------------------

June 24, 2006

advaitin, "Peter" <not_2 wrote:

>

> Namaste Advaitins,

>

> Some passages from Sri Ramana below, on this subject.

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Peter

>

> -----

>

> M.: Divine sight means Self-luminosity. The world divya shows it. The

full

> word means the Self. Who is to bestow a divine eye? And who is to see?

> Again, people read in the books, "hearing, reflection and one-

pointedness

> are necessary". They think that they must pass through savikalpa

samadhi

> and nirvikalpa samadhi before attaining Realisation. Hence all these

> questions. Why should they wander in that maze? What do they gain at

the

> end? It is only cessation of the trouble of seeking. They find that

the Self

> is eternal and self-evident. Why should they not get that repose even

this

> moment? A simple man, not learned, is satisfied with japa or worship. A

> Jnani is of course satisfied. The whole trouble is for the book-worms.

> Well, well. They will also get on. (Talks 336)

> -

> -----------------------------

>

> "... why change the environment? Your efforts can be made even now, in

> whatever environment you may be. The environment never abandons you,

> according to your desire. Look at me. I left home. Look at yourselves.

You

> have come here leaving the home environment. What do you find here? Is

this

> different from what you left? Even if one is immersed in nirvikalpa

samadhi

> for years together, when he emerges from it he will find himself in the

> environment which he is bound to have. That is the reason for the

Acharya

> emphasising sahaja samadhi in preference to nirvikalpa samadhi in his

> excellent work Viveka Chudamani. One should be in spontaneous samadhi

- that

> is, in one's pristine state - in the midst of every environment." (From

> "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi", Talk 54)

Dear Sir,

Sri Ramakrishna used to say if a watersnake catches a big frog and tries

to swollow there will be endless misery to both of them. The bull frog

will go on crocking in agony and the snake will desperately try in vain

to put the frog into its moth. Same is the case with unenlightened

teacher and student of his. But he says that if a cobra bites a frog it

will croak maximum for 3 times and dies. So is the case with the

competent guru who dispells the doubts of the diciple in no time.

Here king cobra has bitten us and therefore discussion stops :-))

Thanks for your quotes.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

June 25, 2006

subrahmanian_v <subrahmanian_v > wrote: Some speakers on Vedanta have openly criticized NS as being unnecessary for liberation, that it belongs to Yoga shastra and as such un-Vedantic, etc. What is not perhaps noticed by them is that the term Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not occurring in the Yoga Shastra. Samadhi is spoken of in the Mahabharatha, the Agni and other Puranas. Several Upanishads speak of Samadhi. It is wrong to deem it as un-Vedantic. What is of pivotal importance is the presence of supreme Vairagyam.

Dear sir,

The yogasutras of Patanjali deal with Nirvikalpa samadhi at various stages, all these known by the names of nirvitarka, nirvichara, asmita and ananda. These stages of samadhi of non-deliberation, non-reflective, the pure ego, and finally ananda, are deemed to contain a seed of individuality, and on that account are not capable of assuring the exalted state of isolation, which is possible only in the nirbija samadhi, after one discriminates on the distinction between satva and the purusa ( this being termed as viveka-kyati ). Finally, even this discriminatory knowledge is also found to be limited, and the yogi disgusted with all the vehicles of the prakriti, abandons even this meditation. This transition is termed as dharma-megha samadhi, which is very much found even in Mahayana sutras. It is only through samadhis that the hang-overs are destroyed, and not through mere intellectual vichara, unless it is a case of the yogi having seen

through these processes, and is in an exalted state of anthakarana-suddhi to be able to perceive the self through mere listening to the mahavakyas, in his case repetition not being needed. I think one of the schools of advaita, vivarna or bhamiti, holds the idea that repetition of the mahavakyas is not a prerequisite, as once you listen to the truth, there is a swift understanding of the true nature of the Self, which is beyond the pale of contemplation. There seems to be a very great truth in this. However, with the mental hang-overs being still there, it is not possible to have this non-verbal understanding. Hence the need for the yoga. This leap is given only to exalted souls like Bhaghavan Ramana. I think yoga is not inferior to jnana. Even though advaita constitutes the ultimate truth, having least inconsistencies, and holds a superior ontological position, in that it dismisses all props towards coming upon the ultimate as mind-born illusions, since it

is not possible for anyone to dislodge ignorance by the immediate action of listening to the mahavakyas- though this only must be true- yoga seems to be a true sadhana. Even all intellectual enquiries constitute a form of yoga. Hence scriptures like yogavasishta have recognized the importance of yoga. From the transcendental viewpoint there is some validity in the averment attributed to the particular swamy that nirvikalpa samadhi is not necessary for understanding the true nature of the self. According to even Bhaghavan Ramana, one merges only in the light in the nirvikalpa as against darkness in sleep, otherwise there being no differences between the two. However, the conception that the natural state is not come by through yogic sadhanas assuming duality as real, should not make us remain complacent since we see pain all round us, and our minds are inextricably implicated in the mechanism of seeking pleasures- all these things being pointers towards the

fact that yoga is a must. That is why even advaita is called as jnana yoga. There is a beautiful verse in yogavasishta to the following effect: " The mind by virtue of mere ideation thinks that there is some thing called prana, which it thinks should be controlled for the extinction of the mind.." The author of yogavasishta, while advocating control etc, does not swerve from its exalted position that the self is beyond the pale of all duality. Since the bondage, one suffers from, is the outcome of ideation, liberation is also, as it were, the outcome of similar ideation. It is like one coming out of the incubus of a dream-tiger to the waking state. As long as we see pleasant objects around us, being deluded into the false hope that we can sustain the pleasure principle of life permanently, we will not have the urge to come out of it. But the fact is, even pleasure is a form of pain since it makes us swerve from our natural felicity of the self. According to

Patanjali Mahafrishi, for the great seekers and yogis, in view of the continuous mutations involved in all experiences and the basic nature of the constant clash of gunas, no one object being capable of transmission of sustained pleasures, all is pain in life. Even a mere psycho-analyst, Sigmund Freud, the father of the concept of the dreams and the subconscious, in his work, " The Civilization and its discontents," says: "It is only the pleasure principle that draws up the pro gramme of life. But what we enjoy in life in the form of pleasures are only contrasts, and not something intrinsic. The way things are constituted indicate that that man should be happy is not in the very scheme of life." With only yoga as the rafter we should go along this uncharted voyage of samsara.

yours ever in Bhaghavan Ramana

Sankarraman

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June 25, 2006

>"subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v >

Subbu - PraNAms. Thanks for the exhaustive analysis.

The simple fact is if ignorance is the root cause for the samsAra, the

knowledge of ones own nature is the solution to the apparent problem, which

has become real.

To see the problem as apparent, one needs a mind free from preconceived

notions and that chitta suddhi is a prerequisite for jnaana.

Since mind is the problem and mind is the solution to the problem, it is not

the absence of the mind but absence of notional mind that is required. A

mind that is vigilant and active but not burdened with the preconceived

notions about oneself is the mind that is capable of seeing the fact as a

fact without any contamination.

Nirvikalapaka involves absence of the mind then that is only laya of the

mind. If nirivikalpaka involves absence of notional mind, then yes, that is

the mind that is required. That is not the absence of total mind that

occurs in the deep sleep state.

Samadhi - is the sama dhi - where equanimity of the mind, which can

transgress the changing thoughts in the inquiry to the substantive Brahman,

is the mind that is in the state of clear understanding. Because of the

pressures of vAsanas, the mind keeps drifting back and firm abidance in that

understanding will not be established. Hence, nidhidhyAsana is essential

for the mind that is not adequately tuned to establish firmly in that clear

understanding due to the pressure of vAsanas.

Nirvikalpaka samAdhi is not an experiential state but state of firm abidance

in the clear understanding that I am is pure existence consciousness without

any qualifications.

Hence, the instruction nidhidhyAsitavyaH - one has to do constant

continuous meditative inquiry (ananya chinta) into the nature of the truth

for the mind to drop fully and completely all the notions. That happens as

the pressure of the vAsanas slowly die down.

In addition, a correction to Swami Chinmayanandaji's statement. When

someone asked if Swamiji realized or not his answer was - that is not his

business - and then he explained that if he says yes or no how is the person

going to prove or disprove that. Hence, the question is invalid. One has

to examine oneself if he has realized or not and others will never know.

Second, the knowledge that makes one realize itself is mithya that includes

even Vedas. Hence, Jnaani just keeps quite from responding to such

questions. A disciple has to recognize that his teacher is realized.

Otherwise, the student will not have a faith for his own realization. It is

immeterial if someone has realiazed or not since that can never be proved or

disproved by any litmus test. The sthitaprajna laxanas that Krishna

enumerates is for ones owns litmus test. One has to have faith in his

Teacher for his shraddha. shraddhaavan labhate jnaanam.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

_______________

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June 25, 2006

Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Since mind is the problem and mind is the solution to the problem, it is not

the absence of the mind but absence of notional mind that is required. A

mind that is vigilant and active but not burdened with the preconceived

notions about oneself is the mind that is capable of seeing the fact as a

fact without any contamination.

Nirvikalapaka involves absence of the mind then that is only laya of the

mind. If nirivikalpaka involves absence of notional mind, then yes, that is

the mind that is required. That is not the absence of total mind that

occurs in the deep sleep state.

From

Sankarraman

Dear sir,

Nirvikalpa, as you have beautifully put it, does not mean the absence of mind, which is an inconscient state like deep-sleep, but has to be understood to be one of the absence of conceptualization involving judgement. The mind in Nirvikalpa state should be able to see things clearly without any choice-making mechanism of the psychological individuality. Such a mind does not have anything to seek, but is in a state of constant search, not for something projected by the goal-oriented mind, but it is an objectless search left with only the basic question, "Who am I, what am I." That alert mind does not wait for an answer, as all questions demanding an answer belong to the realm of duality, trying to be other than what is. That mind abides in the position: " I don't know." This is not an emprical, " I don't know," waiting for an answer, but involves the very basic listening to the mischieves of the dualistic mind without any

condemnation or judgement. In the very act of attention, the choice-making, psychological, individuality, is burnt to ashes, with only the flame of attention, which cannot be smothered by any trick of the dualistic mind, remaining. Nirvikalpa, as you say, involves an alert, and,watchful mind, and does not mean mere indolence.

yours ever in Bhaghavan Ramana

Sankarraman

..

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June 25, 2006

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran

wrote:

>

> From the transcendental viewpoint there is some validity in the

averment attributed to the particular swamy that nirvikalpa samadhi

is not necessary for understanding the true nature of the self.

According to even Bhaghavan Ramana, one merges only in the light in

the nirvikalpa as against darkness in sleep, otherwise there being

no differences between the two.

Namaste Shankarraman ji,

Your above post makes very interesting reading. The utility of yoga

is not denigrated or denied by anyone. Regarding the above remark of

yours about the transcendental point, that would be true of even

jnana arising out of vichara. For, has not Gaudapadacharya said in

the Karikas that from the transcendental viewpoint there is no

bondage and therefore no one who is even bound? The point made by

Acharyal in the dialogue that i had quoted was not from the

transcendental viewpoint. It was made from the relative standpoint

alone. For, there is the distinction in the paths as to some taking

the vichara marga and some others being guided in the path of yoga.

As the Acharyal Himself said, His Guru Sri Chandrashekhara Bharathi

Swamigal's was the vichara marga. Such a distinction is recognised

even by the Yogavasishtha, quotes of which i had given in this

context. It is the 'type' of an individual. That is what is

mentioned in the Yogavasishta quote.

The utility of Yoga, that is Samadhi, in retaining the Knowledge once

secured, enjoyment of Jivanmukti, etc. is undeniable. When one reads

the Jivanmukti viveka one gets a clear picture of these. Let me quote

a small portion in continuation of the above quotes from the

Jivanmuktiviveka:

Quote:

If it is thought, that this 'careful differentiation and

separation'(the path of vichara, in our words) after all leads only

to yoga, for the reason that the one-pointed transformation, directed

towards the Self alone, which the mind undergoes at the moment of

realization (of the Self), is a kind of momentary Concentration of

the conscious variety (kshanika-savikalpa-samadhi), we grant that

this is so; still the distinction between the conscious and the

unconscious varieties of Concentration is indeed very great, both in

the nature and the means adopted in practicing them.....(unquote)

Ultimately, what could be concluded about the matter is, while the

practices involved in the two paths are somewhat different, the

content, that is the focusing of the mind on the Atman alone to the

exclusion of everything else, is not widely different. The common

factor, in my understanding, is the extent of vairagyam that is

present in the person irrespective of the seemingly different paths.

For, progress in samadhi yoga is chiefly dependent on this ingredient

so also the progress and the later abidance in the Self constituting

jivanmukti for the one who has gained realization through vichara

depends on the degree of vairagyam he has cultivated.

It could be appreciated that Acharyal who made that statement was

Himself a fully accomplished Yogi and for Him to say that Nirvikalpa

samadhi is not the only path for Self-realization, is not something

without meaning.

To aver that NS is the only path available, would discourage someone

who is not cut out for it from taking to sadhana. An alternative

path is available for someone who is naturally suited for vichara.

Only because of this variation in nature that the shastra lays down

the different paths. There did appear a post, by Peter ji, concurring

with this view as put forth by Bhagavan Ramana.

Hope this clarifies the position (of the scriptures, and the

Acharyas as based on experience) i had tried to put forth in my

original post.

Thanks and with warm regards,

subbu

June 26, 2006

Honorable subbuji and sankararaman-ji :

PRranama ! Please , allow me to share a very important passage from

the great treatise 'Tripura Rahasya' on this subject of 'nirvikalpa '

samadhi .

here it goes :

"114-115. "Every one is experiencing the Nirvikalpa state, though

unknowingly. But what is the use of such unrecognised samadhis? A

similar state becomes possible to the hatha yogis also. This

experience alone does not confer any lasting benefit. But one may

apply the experience to the practical affairs of life. Samadhi can

only be such and such alone. (Sahaja samadhi is meant here.)

[Commentary. - Samadhi: Aspirants may be jnana yogis or hatha yogis.

The former learn the truth from the scriptures and a Guru: cogitate

and understand it clearly. Later they contemplate the truth and gain

samadhi.

The wise say that samadhi is the control resulting from the

application of the experienced truth (i.e., the awareness of the

Self) to the practical affairs of life. This samadhi is possible only

for jnana yogis.

The hatha yogis are of two kinds: the one intent on eliminating all

perturbations of the mind, starts with the elimination of the non-

self and gradually of all mental vacillations. This requires very

long and determined practice which becomes his second nature and the

yogi remains perfectly unagitated. The other practises the six

preliminary exercises and then controls the breath (Pranayama) until

he can make the air enter the Sushumna nadi. Since the earlier effort

is considerable owing to control of breath, there is a heavy strain

which is suddenly relieved by the entry of air in Sushumna. The

resulting happiness is comparable to that of a man suddenly relieved

of a pressing load on his back. His mind is similar to that of man in

a swoon or a state of intoxication. Both classes of hatha yogis

experience a happiness similar to that of deep slumber.

A jnana yogi, on the other hand, has theoretical knowledge of the

Self, for he has heard it from the Guru and learnt it from the

Sastras, and has further cogitated upon the teachings. Therefore, the

veil of ignorance is drawn off from him even before the consummation

of samadhi. The substratum of consciousness free from thoughts of

external phenomena is distinguished by him like a mirror reflecting

images. Furthermore in the earlier stage of samadhi, he is capable of

remaining aware as absolute consciousness quite free from all

blemishes of thought.]

"Whereas a hatha yogi cannot remain in such a state. In the jnani's

samadhi, both the veil of ignorance and perturbation of thoughts are

removed. In the hatha yogi's samadhi, though the Self is naturally

free from the two obstacles, yet it remains hidden by the veil of

ignorance. The same is torn off by the jnani in the process of his

contemplation.

"If asked what difference there is between the samadhi of a hatha

yogi and sleep, it must be said that the mind overpowered by deep

ignorance is covered by dense darkness in sleep whereas the mind

being associated with satva (quality of brightness) acts in samadhi

as a thin veil for the self-effulgent principle. The Self may be

compared to the Sun obstructed by dark and dense clouds in sleep, and

by light mist in samadhi. For a jnani, the Self shines in its full

effulgence like the Sun unobstructed in the heavens.

"This is how the sages describe samadhi."

116-117. (Having spoken of the jnani's samadhi as approved by the

sages, Dattatreya proceeds to prove its unbroken nature). What is

samadhi? Samadhi is absolute knowledge uncontaminated by objects.

Such is the state of the best jnanis even when they take part in the

affairs of the world.

"The blue colour of the sky is known to be an unreal phenomenon and

yet it appears the same to both the knowing and the unknowing, but

with this difference that the one is misled by the appearance and the

other is not.

118. "Just as the false perception does not mislead the man who

knows, so also all that is perceived which is known to the wise to be

false will never mislead them.

119. "Since the middle class of jnanis have already destroyed their

minds, there are no objects for them. Their state is known as the

supramental one.

120. "The mind is agitated when it assumes the shape of those objects

which it mistakes for real; and unagitated otherwise. Therefore the

latter state alone is supramental.

Note. - The mind of the highest order of jnanis though associated

with objects, knows them to be unreal and therefore is not agitated

as is the case with the ignorant.

121. "Since a jnani of the highest order can engage in several

actions at the same time and yet remain unaffected, he is always many-

minded and yet remains in unbroken samadhi. His is absolute knowledge

free from objects.

"I have now told you all that you want to know."

Thus ends the Chapter XIX on the different states of jnanis in

Tripura Rahasya.

http://www.astrojyoti.com/tripurarahasya5.htm

i thought this made interesting reading so i added this passage to

this interesting thread!

ENJOY !

June 26, 2006

advaitin, "dhyanasaraswati"

<dhyanasaraswati wrote:

>

> Honorable subbuji and sankararaman-ji :

>

> PRranama ! Please , allow me to share a very important passage

from

> the great treatise 'Tripura Rahasya' on this subject

of 'nirvikalpa '

> samadhi .

>

> here it goes :

>

Namaste D-Ji,

Thank you for that. However in the various samadhis there is only

one real one and that is supramental, for anything that can be

experienced or known cannot be real. Samadhi with pure knowledge is

also mental, samadhi cannot be described anymore than Brahman can.

It all depends on the levels of savikalpa nirvikalpa, kevala sahaja

etc.

It all gels with Ramana's 'Who am I?' and the concepts of ajativada.

Of which I have some notes..

http://www.geocities.com/aoclery

....ONS...Tony.

June 27, 2006

>

> It could be appreciated that Acharyal who made that statement was

> Himself a fully accomplished Yogi and for Him to say that

Nirvikalpa

> samadhi is not the only path for Self-realization, is not

something

> without meaning.

>

> To aver that NS is the only path available, would discourage

someone

> who is not cut out for it from taking to sadhana. An alternative

> path is available for someone who is naturally suited for

vichara.

> Only because of this variation in nature that the shastra lays

down

> the different paths. There did appear a post, by Peter ji,

concurring

> with this view as put forth by Bhagavan Ramana.

Dear Subbuji,

There is a reference to our topic in the TAlks with Sri Ramama

It runs thus,

Visitor: Can the study of sacred books will reveal the truth:

M: That will not suffice.

V: Why not?

M: Samadhi alone can reveal it. Thoughts cast a veil over reality

and so it cannot be clear in the states other than the samadhi.

V: Is there thought in Samadhi? Or is there not?

M: There will only be the feeling i am and no other thoughts.

V:Is not I am thought?

M: The egoless i am is not a thought. It is realisation. The meaning

or significance of I is god. The experience of i am is so be still.

Talk 225 page no.194

In fact the acharya whoose statement i was referring to holds that

savikalpa samadhi is the voluntarily repeating certain mantras and

the nirvikalpa samadhi is involuntary thought without any effort

from the meditator. Here Maharshi clearly refutes that it is not a

thought.

Sri Ramakrishna used to tell that Samadhi will be attained by all

the aspirants whether they follow jnana marga or bhakti marga. He

says that even an aspirant in the bhakti marga will experience

automatic kumbhaka and attains samadhi at the peak of his sadhana.

There is another answer given by the mahashi on this topic

Talk 230

Visitor: Can one realise truth by learning the scriptures and study

of books?

M: No. So long as predispostions remain latent in the mind ,

realisation cannot be achieved. Sastra learning itself a vasana.

Realisation is only in Samadhi.

Ofcourse Maharshi is not underminining the study of the sastras. But

he clearly says that that alone is not sufficient. Going to sahaja

state without different levels of consciousness is a far cry for an

ordinary sadhakas. It is possible only in the case of exceptional

souls like Sri Ramana Or Sri Ramakrishna. Even if somebody goes

directly to sahaja state we have to take that he has completed the

preceeding steps in his previous bith itself.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

June 27, 2006

Sri Vinayaka-ji,

Here is another excerpt from Sri Ramana's talks with a disciple on

this subject of Nirvikalpa samadhi :

In yoga the term samadhi refers to

some kind of trance and there are various kinds of samadhi.

But the samadhi I speak of is different. It is SAHAJ SAMADHI.

>From here you have samadhan (steadiness) and you remain

calm and composed even while you are active. You realise that you are

moved by the deeper real Self within. You have no worries, no

anxieties, no cares, for you come to realise that there is nothing

belonging to you. You know that everything is done by something with

which you are in conscious union.

Question: "If this sahaj samadhi is the most desirable condition, is

there no need for nirvikalpa samadhi?"

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "The nirvikalpa samadhi of raja yoga may have

its use. But in Jnana yoga this sahaj sthiti (natural state) or sahaj

nishtha (abidance in the natural state) itself is the nirvikalpa

state. In this natural state, the mind is free from doubts. It has no

need to swing between alternatives of possibilities and

probabilities.It sees no vikalpas (differences) of any kind. It is

sure of the truth because it feels the presence of the real. Even

when it is active, it knows it is active in the reality, the Self,

the

Supreme Being."

Question: "How can one function in the world in such a state?"

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "One who accustoms himself naturally to

meditation and enjoys the bliss of meditation will not lose his

samadhi state whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts may

come to him. That is Sahaja Nirvikalpa. Sahaj Nirvikalpa is Nasa

Manas (total destruction of the mind). Those who are in the laya

samadhi state (a trance like state in which the mind is temporarily

in abeyance) will have to bring the mind back under control from time

to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it is in sahaj samadhi, it will

never slide down from their high state.

http://www.hinduism.co.za/newpage6.htm

The state of 'nirvikalpa 'samadhi experienced by Sri Ramakrishna

involved 'kundalini' awakening ! please read what the sage of

Arunachala , sri Ramana bhagwan says on 'kundalini' awakening :

" Sri Ramana Maharshi: Though the Yogi may have his methods of breath

control for his object, the Jnani's method is only that of enquiry.

When by this method the mind is merged in the Self, the Sakti or

Kundalini, which is not apart from the Self, rises automatically.

The Yogis attach the highest importance to sending the Kundalini up

to the Sahasrara, the brain centre or the thousand petalled lotus.

They point out the scriptural statement that the life current enters

the body through the fontanelle and argue that, Viyoga (separation)

having come about that way, yoga (union) must also be effected in the

reverse way. Therefore, they say, we must, by yoga practice, gather

up the Pranas (vital force) and enter the fontanelle for the

consummation of yoga. The Jnanis on the other hand point out that the

yogi assumes the existence of the body and its separateness from the

Self. Only if this standpoint of separateness is adopted can the yogi

advise effort for reunion by the practice of yoga.

In fact the body is in the mind which has the brain for its seat.

That the brain functions by light borrowed from another source is

admitted by the yogis themselves in their fontanelle theory. The

Jnani further argues: if the light is borrowed it must come from its

native source. Go to the source direct and do not depend on borrowed

sources. That source is the Heart, the Self.

The Self does not come from anywhere else and enter the body through

the crown of the head. It is as it is, ever sparkling, ever steady,

unmoving and unchanging. The individual confines himself to the

limits of the changeful body or of the mind which derives its

existence from the unchanging Self. All that is necessary is to give

up this mistaken identity, and that done, the ever shining Self will

be seen to be the single non-dual reality.

If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the

ecstasy of Samadhi ensues. The Vasanas, that is the latent mental

tendencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to

wake up from the Samadhi because release from bondage has not yet

been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the Vasanas

inherent in him so that they cease to disturb the peace of his

Samadhi. So he passes down from the Sahasrara to the Heart through

what is called the Jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the

Sushumna. The Sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the lowest

Chakra, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there

bends down and ends in the Heart. When the yogi has reached the

Heart, the Samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the Heart is

the final centre.

[Note: Commentary by David Godman: Sri Ramana Maharshi never advised

his devotees to parctise Kundalini Yoga since he regarded it as being

both potentially dangerous and unnecessary. He accepted the existence

of the Kundalini power and the Chakras but he said that even if the

Kundalini reached the Sahsrara it would not result in realisation.

For final realisation, he said, the Kundalini must go beyond the

Sahasrara, down another Nadi (psychic nerve) he called Amritanadi

(also called the Paranadi or or Jivanadi) and into the Heart-centre

on the right hand side of the chest. Since he maintained that self-

enquiry would automatically send the Kundalini to the Heart-centre,

he taught that separate yoga exercises were unnecessary.)

http://www.hinduism.co.za/kundalin.htm - 36k

Whenver anyone mentioned the word 'samadhi' to sri Ramakrishna

paramahamsa Thakore , he went into 'samadhi'! it is said that those

who experience ''nirvikalpa' samadhi quit their body in 21 days but

our beloved paramahamsa retained his existence in this mudane world

to impart valuable teachings to other devotees for 'lokasangraham' !

best regards

June 27, 2006

praNAmams to Advaitin gurus,

advaitin <advaitin> ,

"Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

> >

> Visitor: Can the study of sacred books will reveal the truth:

> M: That will not suffice.

> V: Why not?

> M: Samadhi alone can reveal it. Thoughts cast a veil over reality

> and so it cannot be clear in the states other than the samadhi.

> Visitor: Can one realise truth by learning the scriptures and study

> of books?

> M: No. So long as predispostions remain latent in the mind ,

> realisation cannot be achieved. Sastra learning itself a vasana.

> Realisation is only in Samadhi.

>

There is a verse in Kathopanishad I.2.23 (Translation from Swami

Chnimayananda's work)

Na ayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na nahuna srutena

Yam eva esa vrnute labhyas, tasya esa atma virnute tanum svam I.2.23

"This Atman cannot be attained by study of Veda nor by intelligence, nor

by much hearing. It is gained by him who chooses it alone. To him this

Atman reveals Its true nature"

Though Swami Chnimayananda uses the word "Mere Vedas", is "Mere" implied

in above sloka? Or is it saying that study of Vedas is not a necessary

condition for Realization? Or is it necessary but not a sufficient

condition as Sri Ramana said above?

What does the statement "Chooses Alone" really mean in the above sloka?

There is the continuation of explanation in the next verse of Katha

Na avirato duscaritan, na asanto na asamahitah;

Na asanta manaso va pi, prajnanena enam apnuyat I.2.24

"But he who has not turned away from bad conduct, whose senses are not

subdued, whose mind is not concentrated, whose mind is not pacified, can

never obtain this Atman by knowledge"

My question is what is "Bad conduct". I believe Good and Bad are

relative. I can guess what this statement in this sloka may mean, but

would want a correct interpretation from the gurus.

Thank you

Sudesh

June 27, 2006

advaitin,

"dhyanasaraswati" <dhyanasaraswati wrote:

> The state of 'nirvikalpa 'samadhi experienced by Sri Ramakrishna

> involved 'kundalini' awakening ! please read what the sage of

> Arunachala , sri Ramana bhagwan says on 'kundalini' awakening :

Dear Sister,

Sri Ramakrishna did experience nirvikalpa samadhi by pure vichara

marga also. He was initiated in the vedanta sadhana and sanyasa by

Tota puri a monk of Puri order. He did practice 64 main types of

tantra which involved with kundalini and shankti worship.

But the nature of great master was to follow completely on the chosen

path of sadhana which he was pursuing for a particular period of

time. So when he did advaita sadhana he resorted only to pure vichara

marga and he did not try to awaken kundalini consciously.

Sri Ramakrishna like Ramana Maharshi never advocated Hata Yoga. only

to select people he taught raja yoga. For all other diciples he

taught bhakti tempered with knowledge. Ramana Maharshi also says that

pranayama should be used to calm the mind and once it is calm one

should start following vichara marga.

He tols Swami Vivekananda that there is a much heigher state than the

nirvikalpa samadhi and this refers to sahaja or natural state of

abiding in the self.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka.

June 28, 2006

Namaste

"Sri Ramakrishna like Ramana Maharshi never advocated Hata Yoga. only

to select people he taught raja yoga. For all other diciples he

taught bhakti tempered with knowledge."

This reminds me of an AkhyAyikA a connected story:

There was a popular saint who had visited the village. people were

moving in flocks to get his blessings from the other side of the river by

boat.

There was a hatha yogi who came to meet the saint him walking on water.

The yogi said anticipating appreciation" Babaji I came to see you

walking on water. I have spent 16 years of my life pracytising this.

The saint answered with a smile, "ko visheshah? What is so great about

this feat. If you had paid 10 paise to the boat man he would have

brought you here. You have wasted 16 years of your life!"

"Ramana Maharshi also says that pranayama should be used to calm the mind and once it is calm one

should start following vichara marga."

There is a ratio prescribed according to the age for the practice of Asana pranayam and DhyAna.

In the beginning upto the thiries one focuses more on Asana jayam and very little time spent on Pranayama.

As one reaches the middle age ion life the focus is shifted to Paranatama and less on Asana and some time spent on Dhyanam.

As one advances in age more focus is on dhyanam and some time spent on pranayama as a purificatory process and very little

time spent on asana to keep the muscles and nerves toned

and relaxed and the joints flexible so that they dont make

the creaky noise and to help the person sit in a comfortable posture for a length of time.

Nothing possibly can be achieved without the cooperation and support of this body.

So a certain amount of time has to be spent by us in the upkeep

of the system to enable us to to continue the sAdhana - vicara marga.

Even the body become an obstacle in the pursuit of the vicara marga.

That does not mean that the entire focus in life has

to be sitting holding ones nose all the time practising prAnayAma.

This also does not mean that one sits in dhAYana keeping the eyes closed

for hours seeking an experience. blue light white light etc.

Swami Dayanandji of Arsha Vidya Gurukulam very emphatically

says in his talks that no such experiences can happen.

ati yoga and mita yoga is not recommended. The practice has to be

hita, according to ones body comfort, capability, the time that

one can spend, physical,emotional and mental capacities and the sustained interest in

sAdhana.

I do not think great saints like Sri Raman and Sri Ramakrishna

would have recommended and said not to practice prAnayama.

I suppose we should not be taking this comment literally.

There is much more to be read behind these comments by the

great saints.

But prAnayAma is only a beginning stage to open up ones mind

and interest in spirituality. It is a step by step process

and progress.

I would also like to mention Swami Dayanandaji's` comment

which he very often jocularly does in class. One lands up

in vedanta not because his father or mother has asked him to do so

but only after he has gone on a tour and trip to all the other

ashrams in India that they land up here finally.

This seems to be true because I have done this myself.

Every westerner who lands up in India for the first time begins

with Benares, mathura, Brindaban, then the Yoga Ashrams -Mogyr, Mysore

kerala, Rishikesh and after exploring many others finally at

Krishnamacharya Yoga Mandiram. by then they Have discovered the best

place to learn Yoga.

Then comes the Ayurveda and Jyothisham. So by then they have equipped

with a few certificates.In the practice of Asana and pranayama\

the reults are seen visibly. The certificates helps them to earn a

few coppers back at home.

Then the Meditations - mental trip on white light, blue light, kundalini,

chakra meditation, laya yoga, svara yoga mantra yoga and what not trip

begins and tantra begins. Mantra Initiation trips with a few GURUJIS.

This is applicable to the Indians also. I know of a Brahmchari who had

visited and stayed at 17 different ashrams in India in five years time.

So very few land up with the right kind of teachers for the vicAra mArga.

For this one has to have the Atma krupa, guru krupa,pitr krupa,

Isvara krupa and sAstra krupa.

om namo narayanaya

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

June 29, 2006

advaitin, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu

wrote:

> I do not think great saints like Sri Raman and Sri Ramakrishna

> would have recommended and said not to practice prAnayama.

> I suppose we should not be taking this comment literally.

> There is much more to be read behind these comments by the

> great saints.

Dear Sri Lakshmiji,

Sri Ramakrishna and Ramana maharshi never said that one should not

practice pranayama. They said if it helps certain aspirants to calm

the mind they can practice. But that should be means to an end and

not an end in itself. Sri Ramana says that the moment an aspirant

comes out of the meditaiton he will loose the calmness gained

through pranayama and all the vasanas will be there in the latent

form. Instead once he is able to proceed in the vichara marga after

calming the mind with the help of pranayama then the real journey

begins. Mind and breath are interrelated. Pranayama is not

absolutely necessary for everyone. If the mind is made calm through

vichara or atmavalokana breath will taken care also even though

involunterily.

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

Yours in the lord,

Br. Vinayaka

June 29, 2006

Re: Liberation and Nirvikalpa Samadhi

praNAmams to Advaitin gurus,

advaitin <advaitin> ,

"Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns wrote:

> >

> Visitor: Can the study of sacred books will reveal the truth:

> M: That will not suffice.

> V: Why not?

> M: Samadhi alone can reveal it. Thoughts cast a veil over reality

> and so it cannot be clear in the states other than the samadhi.

> Visitor: Can one realise truth by learning the scriptures and study

> of books?

> M: No. So long as predispostions remain latent in the mind ,

> realisation cannot be achieved. Sastra learning itself a vasana.

> Realisation is only in Samadhi.

>

There is a verse in Kathopanishad I.2.23 (Translation from Swami

Chnimayananda's work)

Na ayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na nahuna srutena

Yam eva esa vrnute labhyas, tasya esa atma virnute tanum svam I.2.23

"This Atman cannot be attained by study of Veda nor by intelligence,

nor

by much hearing. It is gained by him who chooses it alone. To him this

Atman reveals Its true nature"

Though Swami Chnimayananda uses the word "Mere Vedas", is "Mere"

implied

in above sloka? Or is it saying that study of Vedas is not a necessary

condition for Realization? Or is it necessary but not a sufficient

condition as Sri Ramana said above?

Reply:

Here is an excerpt from the book 'Exalting Elucidations'. It is from

the chapter 'Study of the Shastras' wherein the Acharya, Jagadguru

Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha SwaminaH of Sringeri, is replying to

questions posed by a disciple:

D: Is it necessary for one seeking moksha to study the shastras?

A: Study of the shastras is needed to understand the Truth, clear

doubts and secure realization of the Absolute.

D: Why has the study of shastras been advocated?

A: To clarify the Truth to an aspirant. Doubts may arise if we do

not correctly understand the view of the Shastras. The study of the

shastras clears such doubts. Firm faith in Vedanta is established.

Scriptural studies enable one to realise as a fact what is taught by

the Guru and is the final purport of the shastras.

D: Is the study of scriptures necessary for one having absolute faith

in the teaching of one's Guru?

A: If a disciple has so firm a faith, it is not necessary for him to

study the shastras formally in order to know the Truth.

D: How long should one study the shastras?

A: As long as one is not convinced of the Truth. Thereafter one can

stop. It is said: PalAlamiva dhaanyaarthI tyajedgranthAnasheShataH

(Just as one desirous of grains discards the chaff, so also (after a

certain stage) one should totally give up study of the shastras –

Amritabindu Upanishad).

Sudeshji further asks:

What does the statement "Chooses Alone" really mean in the above

sloka?

("This Atman cannot be attained by study of Veda nor by intelligence,

nor

by much hearing. It is gained by him who chooses it alone. To him this

Atman reveals Its true nature")

Reply:

As per the Bhashya of Shankara, the meaning is this:

To such an aspirant who chooses the Self alone (in exclusion of

everything else), the Truth reveals Itself. (This mantra appears in

the Mundaka Upanishad also III.2.3 wherein the bhashyam says: To him

alone who chooses to know the Self, It reveals Itself, and not by any

other means. The idea is, 'choosing to know the Self' should be

one's sole longing. Only such a singular longing results in

realization and not any other means. In the Braihadarnyaka Vartika

4.4.692, this Sruti is referred and the tika thereon gives this idea:

It is that seeker on whom the Supreme confers Its grace as 'May he

realize Me as his very Self', that is enabled to realize so.)

Sudeshji concludes:

There is the continuation of explanation in the next verse of Katha

Na avirato duscaritan, na asanto na asamahitah;

Na asanta manaso va pi, prajnanena enam apnuyat I.2.24

"But he who has not turned away from bad conduct, whose senses are not

subdued, whose mind is not concentrated, whose mind is not pacified,

can

never obtain this Atman by knowledge"

My question is what is "Bad conduct". I believe Good and Bad are

relative. I can guess what this statement in this sloka may mean, but

would want a correct interpretation from the gurus.

Reply:

The Bhashyam for this is: such conduct that is prohibited by the

Vedas and the Smritis and that which is not enjoined by the Veda and

Smriti.

Thank you

Sudesh

Pranams,

Subbu

June 29, 2006

Thank you Subbu Garu,

Your post provides guidance for me to reflect further.

Thanks

Sudesh

> Sudesh

> Pranams,

> Subbu

>

June 29, 2006

Thank you Subbuji for a lucid explanation to Sudeshji's query on the

Kathopanishad verse.

SudeshJi, may i also add a few lines to subbuji's excellent response-

btw, i am no means a Guru BUT A SADHAKA STRUGGLING ON THE PATH !

in any spiritual practice, there is what is called a 'preperatory'

stage.

In the very first verse of Sadhana Panchakam , Sri sri Adi Shankara

*bhagvadapada states :

vedo nityama dhIyatAM *tad uditaM karma svanuSThitAM

tenezasya vidhIyatAm apacitiH kAmye matis tyajyatAm,

pApaughaH pari dhUyatAM bhava sukhe doSo 'nusaMdhIyatAM

AtmecchA vyavasIyatAM nijagRhAt tUrNaM vinirgamyatAm

*Study the Vedas (Holy Scriptures) daily.*

Perform diligently the duties (karmas) ordained by them.

DEDICATE ALL those actions (karmas) as WORSHIP unto the Lord.

Renounce ALL DESIRES in the heart and mind.

Why would the acharya recommend the reading of Vedas if it not is

necessary for Sadhana ?

here , i like to recall the words of Sri Kanchi Maha swamigal on

Study of the vedas :

"In fact the Vedas are never intended to be written down and read.

Veda Adhyayana implied hearing from the lips of the teacher and

repeating after him. That is why in ancient Tamil classics, the Vedas

are referred to as Ezhutaakkilavi , unwritten book. Veda Paatakaas,

who learn from books, are included among the six classes of inferior

scholars. The other five classes are those who recite the Vedas

musically, those who recite very fast, those who shake their heads

while reciting, those who do not know the meaning, and those who have

a poor voice. This is made clear in the following verse :

Geetee seeghree sirahkampee tatha likhita paatakah

anarthajnah alpakanthascha shadete paatakaadhamaah. "

Mahaperiyavaal adds :

"Veda adhyayana, without knowing the meaning thereof is like

preserving the body without the soul.

Veda Mantraas uttered with a knowledge of their meaning will lead to

Paapa-parihara(expiation of sins), and Arishtasaanti(liquidation of

evil), and pave the way to Brahma-saakshaathkaara(God realisation)."

Yes indeed! There are three sections - first, the karma kanda teaches

you the importance of rituals and sacrifices . The upasana kanda

teaches you the importance of worship and the jnana kanda instructs

you on Nirguna brahman.

It is not only important to study the great scriptural texts like the

vedas and the upanishads but it is even more important to *live* the

Truth contained in these great scriptures. If such a study is

undertaken merely for intellectual curiosity, it is of no use. If

vedas and upanishads teach you to differentiate between what is real

and what is unreal, half the battle is won ! then of course , one

needs the kripa of Guru and GOD FOR REALIZATION TO OCCUR !

verse 59 of viveka chudamani states

When the supreme reality is not understood, the study of the

scriptures is useless, and study of the scriptures is useless when

the supreme reality has been understood.

verse 61 states

Except for the medicine of the knowledge of God, what use are Vedas,

scriptures, mantras and such medicines when you have been bitten by

the snake of ignorance?

This is why we need the guidance of a realized Sadguru and that too

is possible only by the grace of God.

that is why verse 526 of viveka chudamani states

"The ultimate tranquillity is the return to silence of the intellect,

since the intellect is the cause of false assumptions, and in this

peace the great souled man who knows God and who has become God

experiences the infinite joy of non-dual bliss. "

On this day dedicated to GURU, JOIN ME IN OFFERING prayers to the

guru of all Gurus, Sri DAKSHINAMURTHY , THE SILENT GURU . to give us

the 'divya' chaksu to realize the vedantic truth of non-dual bliss !

subbuji, btw, that was an excellent post on Sri Dakshinamurthy! Btw ,

when sri vishnu bhagwan or sri Anantasayanam is in a reclining

position on a ksheera sagara , His eyes may be closed but in reality

He is not 'sleeping' He is in *yoga nidra* and his right hand is

offering puja to the Shiva-linga! On anoter note, there is a Vina

vadini icon of sri Dakshinamurthy ! Subbuji, could you please explain

the significance of this icon of sri dakshinamurthy? there is a

beautiful dikshitir kriti on this icon !

here is my favorite verse from adi shankara bhagvadapada's

guruvashtakam

shadangAdi vedo mukhe shAstra vidya,kavitvAdi gadyam supadyam karo ti

manaschennalagnam gurOrangripadme tataHkim tataHkim tataHkim tataH

kim?

The Vedas with their six auxiliaries and knowledge of sciences may be

on the one's lips; one may have the gift of poesy; and may compose

good prose and poetry;but if one's mind be not attached to the lotus

feet of the Guru what thence, what thence, what thence, what thence?

Jaya Jaya Shankara

Hara Hara Shankara

Aum Sri Dakshinamurtaye namaha!

June 29, 2006

advaitin

dhyanasaraswati <dhyanasaraswati >

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:33 am

Re: Liberation and Nirvikalpa Samadhi

Thank you Subbuji for a lucid explanation to Sudeshji's query on