a counter example / Beware of Kali's agents

[Guest guest]

> Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

>

> I have been observing this discussion off in one and this morning I had

> some concerns which I would like to share (and a few spare minutes to

> write them).

>

> I'm concerned about how to determine what is useful for progress in

> Krishna consciousness.

 

Something that is inherently against Krishna conscious principles cannot be

utilized in Krishna's service. Psychology, being an empirical tool, does not

descend from the Supreme, and unless it's epistemology and methods do so,

such a tool is antagonistic to Vaisnava pramana and thus useless in Krishna

consciousness. Srila Prabhupada explains: "There are two processes by which

we can acquire knowledge: one is the ascending process (äroha-panthä), and

the other is the descending process (avaroha-panthä). By the ascending

process, one attempts to understand God by his own efforts-by

philosophizing, meditating, or speculating. According to the descending

process, one acquires knowledge simply by hearing from an authority, from

the bona fide spiritual master and the scriptures."(Path of Perfection 9) So

far, no psychological practices have made it into the "bona fide" or

"authoritative" league.

[Guest guest]

> But sir! Then you must not have yet seen all there is to see, because

> counselors who work from a spiritual grounding can do better than that.

>

> As for evidence, just ask the devotees trained in counseling or meet

> devotees successfully counseled (even by a nondevotee with a spiritual

> grounding). Or you can find evidence by reading more on this topic.

 

Actually, I am not interested in studying this topic as I have something far

superior to study. If someone is not intelligent enough or too mentally

disturbed to just engage i bhakti-yoga, then so be it. It's not my problem.

And if they can get help from devotee therapists then all well and good. I

am all for it. My problem is with the those like DG and the Atma yoga guy

who use ISKCON as their business field for their half witted new age

programs.

 

But I take exception to your term 'nondevotees with a spiritual grounding.'

 

There is no such thing as a non-devotee with a spiritual grounding, so

that's a misleading statement. I just thought I'd mention it for the record.

 

ys, jdd

[Guest guest]

> But I take exception to your term 'nondevotees with a spiritual

> grounding.'

>

> There is no such thing as a non-devotee with a spiritual grounding, so

> that's a misleading statement. I just thought I'd mention it for the

> record.

 

I meant someone not in ISKCON, with faith in God and a philosophy to match.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > People who suffer also take shelter of Buddhism and Mayavada to relieve

> > their suffering, and they often enough get the bliss they were after.

> > Can adding some Buddhism or Mayavada to a spiritual program help a

> > devotee, even if it helps her "deal with deep emotional issues" and

> > creates "more stability" in her life? Who is better off: the bhakta

> > with emotional issues or the Mayavadi who has achieved brahman

> > realization?

>

> Sadhu...

 

Yes, I'd like to second that.

 

ys, jdd

[Guest guest]

> > But I take exception to your term 'nondevotees with a spiritual

> > grounding.'

> >

> > There is no such thing as a non-devotee with a spiritual grounding, so

> > that's a misleading statement. I just thought I'd mention it for the

> > record.

>

> I meant someone not in ISKCON, with faith in God and a philosophy to

> match.

 

To have faith in God or to have a philosophy to match is not spirituality

according to Vaishnava siddhanta. It's an oxymoron to to say that a

non-Vaishnava can be grounded in spirituality. The Vaishnavas are the only

ones on the planet who knows what is spirituality and who can tell you what

the difference is between material and spiritual. No one knows this besides

the Vaishnavas, and we wouldn't know it if Prabhupada hadn't told us.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/26/2006 6:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

 

Who is better off: the bhakta

> > with emotional issues or the Mayavadi who has achieved brahman

> > realization?

 

 

 

 

But have you known any devotee who became a mayavadi after getting therapy

or taking a seminar on self development?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/26/2006 6:50:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

 

To have faith in God or to have a philosophy to match is not spirituality

according to Vaishnava siddhanta.

 

 

If this is the case, why did Prabhupada say to the Christian priests he met

that we should cooperate toghether to spead God consciousness?

[Guest guest]

>

> In a message dated 6/26/2006 6:50:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

>

> To have faith in God or to have a philosophy to match is not spirituality

> according to Vaishnava siddhanta.

>

>

> If this is the case, why did Prabhupada say to the Christian priests he

> met that we should cooperate toghether to spead God consciousness?

 

In the hope of giving them real religion, real spirituality...in the hope of

giving them Krishna. Why else?

[Guest guest]

>

> In a message dated 6/26/2006 6:50:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> Jahnu (AT) pamho (DOT) net writes:

>

> To have faith in God or to have a philosophy to match is not spirituality

> according to Vaishnava siddhanta.

>

>

> If this is the case, why did Prabhupada say to the Christian priests he

> met that we should cooperate toghether to spead God consciousness?

 

He must have said that just to encourage them. I can't accept that

Prabhupada was so much in illusion that he thought there was anything

spiritual about Christianity. In fact, he said that both the Bible and the

Koran were scriptures for the mlecchas. Rupa Goswami says in NOD that

anything done for Krishna is spiritual and anything done for any other

reason is material.

 

ys, jdd

[Guest guest]

The transcendentalists are the empiric philosophers, the mystics and the

devotees of the Lord. Empiric philosophers aim at the perfection of merging

into the being of the Absolute, mystics aim at perceiving the all-pervading

Supersoul, and the devotees of the Lord are engaged in the transcendental

loving service of the Personality of Godhead. Since Brahman, Paramatma and

Bhagavan are different phases of the same Transcendence, all these

transcendentalists are beyond the three modes of material nature. Material

distresses and happinesses are products of the three modes, and therefore

the causes of such material distress and happiness have nothing to do with

the transcendentalists. The King was a devotee, and the rsi was a mystic.

Therefore both of them were unattached to the accidental incident created by

the supreme will. The playful child was an instrument in fulfilling the

Lord's will. --- Srila Prabhupada SB 1.18.50

[Guest guest]

Mahatmaji ki Jai PAMHO AGT Srila Prabhupada

 

<catur vidha bhajate mam>

 

4 kinds of prashad or eatables and worswhip me, but I could not find in

Vedabase; please explain

 

Ys,

Jayo das

PS great service and realization on the Mismanagement doc. I sent it off to

a number of GBCs who may find it VERY edifying.