Getting Beyond Narayana - Sahajiyaism

[Beggar]

Do Not Imitate Advanced Devotees

BY: PROMOD M. PATEL

 

 

June 29, USA (SUN) — Srila Narayana Maharaja gives classes warning followers to be careful not to imitate advanced devotees. The following discourse was given in Australia on December 3, 2002. The devotees had just sung the kirtana Sri Madhurastakam, and then Srila Narayana Maharaja began his class:

 

"Srila Vallabhacarya's bhajana, Sri Madhurastakam, tells us that everything is sweet (madhura) about Krsna, the original Lord of sweetness. His Yamuna is madhura, His nikunjas (groves wherein Radha and Krsna perform their confidential amorous pastimes) are madhura, and His flute-playing and sidelong glances are also very sweet.

 

"Who is actually speaking about the sweetness of Krsna here? Is it Kamsa Maharaja, Aghasura, Bakasura, or Putana? Radhika herself is telling this; She alone is qualified to speak in this way. The history behind Her words is this:

 

"A sakhi once told Her, 'Krsna has left Vrndavana. He now has 16,108 queens, and millions of others also want to marry Him. Why do You have so much love and affection for that crooked Krsna? He has no love for You and no love for Vrndavana. Give Him up and try to forget Him forever.' Srimati Radhika replied, 'O sakhi, what you are saying is true, but I cannot forget Him. Everything about Him is so sweet.'

 

"Demons like Kamsa, Jarasandha, Duryodhana, Putana, Bakasura, Aghasura, Kesi, Canura, and Mustika were seeing that very same Krsna, but they thought of Him as a very cruel, powerful and dangerous enemy. They did not see or experience His sweetness.

 

"Do you know why I am speaking in this way? These demons are against Krsna. Therefore, instead of experiencing His sweetness, they simply experience their own enmity. Similarly, if we imagine that we are meditating on Krsna's asta-kaliya-lila and we have not reached the stage of rati, we will also not experience His sweetness. Rather, we will experience our own lusty and other material desires. In this connection, Kamsa and other demons represent our material desires. Krsna and the realization of the sweetness of Krsna is our goal, but do not try to 'jump up to the top of the tree.' Begin from the root of the tree and climb up from there; then you can realize your goal.

 

"One must follow the proper process of his bhakti from the beginning: 'In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Krsna consciousness, which is matured in bhava, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life. In the prema stage there is constant engagement in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. So, by the gradual process of devotional service, under the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, one can attain the highest stage.' (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.4.15-16)

 

"You must also be able to follow these principles: 'When the seed of ecstatic emotion for Krsna fructifies, the following nine symptoms manifest in one’s behavior: forgiveness, concern that time should not be wasted, detachment, absence of false prestige, hope, eagerness, a taste for chanting the holy name of the Lord, attachment to descriptions of the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and affection for those places where the Lord resides-that is, a temple or a holy place like Vrndavana. These are all called anubhava, subordinate signs of ecstatic emotion. They are visible in a person in whose heart the seed of love of God has begun to fructify.' (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 23.18-19)

 

"If you can follow these above-mentioned two slokas, then you can realize something of the goal - otherwise not. I know, and I see, that in Western and Eastern countries, here and there, many of the devotees want to enter asta-kaliya-lila (Sri Sri Radha-Krsna's eight-fold daily pastimes, from morning to next morning), although they do not even know what it is.

 

"We must be very careful. Our Gosvamis have warned us not to delve very much into this subject matter. This topic is truly our goal, but we can only realize it by following the proper process for advancement in bhakti. If a person has many worldly desires and is attached to women, wine and wealth, how can he properly meditate on asta-kaliya-lila? If one misunderstands his own identity and considers himself to be his body, he will not be able to properly think about asta-kaliya-lila.

 

"Suppose a man or a woman tries to think about Radha-Krsna's pastimes at midnight, for example. Suppose they try to remember how all the gopis left their homes and met Krsna alone, and moreover how Krsna left all the gopis at night and took only Srimati Radhika in a kunja, where They played together. What will he or she think about it? Moreover, if such a man and woman meet together at night 'to discuss these topics', what will be the ultimate result of their 'love'? They are bound to feel lust, and thus they will not be able to control their minds. Their characters will be ruined and they will ruin their entire spiritual lives. Do you understand what I am saying? We should not even think about this topic.

 

"A young - or old - person may remember the following verse: 'O Govardhana! Please grant me a dwelling near your side so that I can easily witness and serve the youthful lovers Sri Radha-Krsna as They perform newer and newer secret, amorous lilas within your many caves where They become completely maddened from drinking prema. You are present and making everything possible.' (Srimad Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Sri Govardhana-Vasa-Prarthana-Dasakam, verse 2)

 

In this verse it is suggested that Radha and Krsna are meeting together and embracing. If a devotee who is not very advanced tries to meditate on this, a worldly conception is bound to come. Therefore, always be careful. Sri Sukadeva Gosvami, who is a maha-mahabhagavata, is so detached from material consideration and possessions that he does not even wear a dor-kaupin (loincloth), nor does he even have a bhajana kutira. He is totally renounced. For him, there is no difference between the most beautiful naked lady and a dry wooden tree. He has no interest at all in the affairs of men and women. Yet, that Sukadeva Gosvami offers reverential pranama to Rasa-lila and asta-kaliya-lila. Although service to that madhura Krsna like that of the gopis is our goal, we cannot pretend to be close to it at our stage.

 

"Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written: 'Bhagavan Vrajendra-nandana Sri Krsna and His transcendental abode Sri Vrndavana-dhama are my worshipable objects. The most excellent method of worshipping Krsna is that adopted by the gopa-ramanis, the young wives of Vraja. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the flawless and most authoritative scripture, and Krsna-prema is the fifth and highest achievement of human life beyond dharma, artha, kama and moksa. It is thus known as pancama-purusartha or parama-purusartha. This is the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We have supreme regard for this conclusion. We have no inclination or respect for any other, cheating opinions.'

 

"The highest examples of love and affection in service to Krsna are the gopis - but this does not apply to all the gopis. This highest service cannot even be performed by Srimati Lalita or Srimati Visakha or by others like them. Such service can only be executed by gopis like Sri Rupa-manjari and Sri Rati-manjari. Lalita and Visakha cannot enter a kunja in which Radha and Krsna are alone and engaged in Their most intimate amorous pastimes, but the manjaris can enter without hesitation and they can serve both Radha and Krsna there.

 

"We must be very careful. We should not discuss the confidential matters of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna before the general public. Be careful. Otherwise, ladies, especially, will be charmed by hearing from you - they will weep, they will run after you, and your character will be lost.

 

Always try to follow the teachings of the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and try to follow Srila Rupa Gosvami's Upadesamrta and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Sri Manah-Siksa. Then try to gradually come to the stage of rati, at which time all of Krsna's pastimes will automatically manifest in a very pure form. Try to follow my instructions. Follow the proper procedures delineated by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, by our guru-varga, and especially by Sri Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.

 

"Sri Krsna-dvaipayana Vyasa and Srila Sukadeva Gosvami have somewhat explained about the goal of our life in the descriptions of the incarnations Matsya, and Kurma, and in descriptions of Varaha, Narasimha, Rama, Parasurama, Vamana, and Kalki. They have kept all the madhura-lila in the Tenth Canto, and there they have explained our aim and object fully.

 

"Krsna Himself became each of the incarnations, like Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Narasimha, Vamana, Balarama and Kalki. They are all Him; but He is playing the role of being Them. Sri Jayadeva Gosvami sings in his Sri Dasavatara-Stotram:

sri-jayadeva-kaver idam uditam udaramsrnu sukha-dam subha-dam bhava-saram

kesava dhrta-dasa-vidha-rupa! jaya jagadisa! Hare

 

["O Kesava! O You who assume these ten forms! O Jagadisa! O You who remove Your devotees' material desires! All glories to You! My humble supplication at Your lotus feet is that You please hear this Dasavatara-Stotra composed by the poet Jayadeva, because it describes the essence of Your incarnations and is most excellent, bestowing happiness and auspiciousness." (Sri Dasavatara-Stotram, verse 11)]

 

"In this connection, Kesava means Vrajendranandana Sri Krsna. That same Krsna is our goal. To serve Him like the gopis is certainly our goal; but be very careful, otherwise you will follow the path of Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura and Kamsa. You will be bound to be like them. Sri Sukadeva Gosvami began speaking about the topics of bhakti from its beginning stages, as well as the processes to achieve the various stages of bhakti.

 

"Then, in the Eleventh Canto, they discussed Sri Narada Muni's explaining to Vasudeva about the topics instructed by the Navayogendras to Maharaja Nimi. For example, the Navayogendras explained about the 24 gurus, including the air and the Earth. From the air one can learn detachment and from the Earth one can learn tolerance. In those texts, the processes to achieve the highest goal given in the Tenth Canto have also been explained.

 

"The same goal of life has been expressed in a still better way in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. In the very beginning of that sastra, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami explained our ultimate aim and object as follows:

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum

unnatojjvala-rasam-bhakti-sriyam harih

purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah sada hrdaya-kandare

sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

 

["May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.4)]

radha krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini saktir asmad ekatmanav api bhuvi pura

deha-bhedam gatau tau caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam

radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalitam naumi krsna-svarupam

 

["The loving affairs of Sri Radha and Krsna are transcendental manifestations of the Lord’s internal pleasure-giving potency. Although Radha and Krsna are one in Their identity, They separated Themselves eternally. Now these two transcendental identities have again united, in the form of Sri Krsna Caitanya. I bow down to Him, who has manifested Himself with the sentiment and complexion of Srimati Radharani although He is Krsna Himself." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.5)]

sri-radhayah pranaya-mahima kidrso vanayaiva- svadyo yenadbhuta-madhurima

kidrso va Madhya saukhyam casya mad-anubhavatah kidrsam veti lobhat

tad-bhavadhyah samajani saci-garbha-sindhau harinduh

 

["Desiring to understand the glory of Radharani’s love, the wonderful qualities in Him that She alone relishes through Her love, and the happiness She feels when She realizes the sweetness of His love, the Supreme Lord Hari, richly endowed with Her emotions, appeared from the womb of Srimati Sacidevi, as the moon appeared from the ocean." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.6)]

 

"Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami especially explained the goal and process to achieve it in the fourth chapter of Adi-lila and in Sri Raya Ramananda Samvada. Also, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed the process to Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami, in chapters 19 and 20-23, respectively.

 

"Be careful about being at the bottom of the tree and, from there, jumping to the top. Do not go in the direction of fire; otherwise you will be burned.

 

"It is not sufficient merely to speak about the proper established philosophical truths (siddhanta) and processes of bhakti. Try to be actually realized in this. If you do not follow, you cannot advance in actual Krsna consciousness.

 

"Suppose a disciple is always glorifying Krsna and His sweet pastimes. That disciple is always chanting, but he does not have very much faith in his guru. Suppose he is chanting a hundred-thousand names daily and is always reading about the pastimes of Krsna and glorifying Him, but he is not following his Gurudeva's orders. He sometimes follows his Guru's orders and sometimes does not. Sometimes he follows his uncontrolled mind and not the process and teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and Srila Prabhupada, and he does not behave as his Guru desires. What will be the result? He will not get perfection.

yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakasante mahatmanah

["Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23).]

[SishirSaha]

Take a look at the way Srila Prabhupada translated this word gaurava and how it is used in CC.

http://www.caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/gaurava

 

The primary meaning of the word gaurava is pride, no matter what Madhava Maharaja or that other bengali speaking person writing on this thread may want you to believe.

[Kripamoya]

 

All Gaudiya Vaishnava's agree with your point. Can you respond to Shakti-fan's post?

 

Sure, let's go there.

 

Shakti-fan says:

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that, "as denotation increases connotation decreases and as connotation increases denotation increases". I've noticed that Srila Sridhar Maharaja often gives the secondary or connotative meaning of a shloka. This certainly doesn't mean that he's in error but rather the connotation of the shloka is either deeper and more congruous with the higher siddhanta than the denotative meaning. Generally Srila Sridhar Maharaja seems to using a connotative meaning of "pujala raga patha" verse as a warning to keep the neophytes from jumping artificially to a higher position. Srila Sridhar Maharaja assumes that the hearer of the connotative meaning is experienced enough to know the literal or denotative meaning. It seems to me that this is where all the confusion comes about. The "pujala raga patha" verse has different meanings on different levels so how could Jagat be entirely wrong despite his renegade pedigree? But despite Sripad B. Sudhir Goswami's proper Saraswat credentials he and his fellow travelers are convinced that the secondary meaning of "pujala raga patha" is the only way, the truth and the light. In some ways the present day Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math is similiar to present day ISKCON in that both of their prominent acaraya's has entered their nitya lila. It seems to me that B. Sudhir Goswami and his like minded compatriots are bitter that the other Gaudiya Maths and ISKCON do not accept Sridhar Maharaja as the most prominent disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur. They may also view Srila Sridhar Maharaja as the only real Rupanuga of his generation but by expousing these disassembling concepts and by making aparadhic propaganda campaigns against others they are merely ushering in a dark age and causing Srila Sridhar Maharaja's good name to be draged through the mud.

 

First, let's examine the meanings of "connotation" and "denotation".

 

Let's make it simple for us less intelligent folks.

Denotation is simply the literal meaning of a term.

 

Connotation is the associated concept that has really nothing to do with the literal meaning.

 

A connotative meaning of a term can most often neglect the associated literal, academic meaning of a term.

 

For example, we could use the term 4th of July.

A literal understanding simply denotes the 4th day of the month of July.

A connotative understanding of the term invokes thoughts of Fireworks, celebration and American Independence from the British and the birth of democracy.

 

So, do you see the difference between what a term denotes and what it connotes?

 

In the same way, the entire canon of the Gaudiya's has a denotation and connotative meaning.

 

A scholarly approach to the Gaudiya canon produces a denotative interpretation of the Gaudiya philosophy. A realized approach by an advanced devotee offers a connotative explanation that goes beyond anything an academic approach can produce.

 

As such, what the verse of Srila Saraswati Goswami denotes and what it connotes to one who had extensive association and personal guidance by Srila Saraswati Goswami can be very much different.

 

There has always been a very secret connotative meaning to the Gaudiya siddhanta that scholarship of Sanskrit or Bengali simply cannot comprehend.

 

In order to understand the connotative meaning of the teachings of great self-realized souls, one must himself be of that order - or receiving guidance from one who is.

 

Therefore, only an intimate associate of Srila Saraswati Thakur can truly understand the connotative meaning of his verses, which have been securely conceiled from those who would try to enter there from the academic platform.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

A connotative meaning of a term can most often neglect the associated literal, academic meaning of a term.

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja was not referring to necessarily a "academic meaning of a term", by the use of the word, "denotation". Look at Bhagavad Gita in the tenth chapter, tesam satatam yuktanam... Srila Sridhar Maharaja considered Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation denotative and his translation connotative and they are quite different. I have to get off now, but take the time to compare these translations and you will get an idea of what he meant by denotative and connotative.

[Kripamoya]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja was not referring to necessarily a "academic meaning of a term", by the use of the word, "denotation". Look at Bhagavad Gita in the tenth chapter, tesam satatam yuktanam... Srila Sridhar Maharaja considered Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation denotative and his translation connotative and they are quite different. I have to get off now, but take the time to compare these translations and you will get an idea of what he meant by denotative and connotative.

 

I understand.

But, it is all subjective and relative to the status and nature of the person.

 

The connotative meaning to one person might be very different from the connotative meaning to another person, because it is subjective based upon one's particular status and particular objectives.

 

Srila Prabhupada's translations were FAR from academic and solely founded on connotative understanding and his position as a nitya-siddha who came from Goloka to do his service to Mahaprabhu.

 

Srila Prabhupada's explanations and Sridhar Maharaja's explanations might carry different connotative meanings, due to their subjective positions and the objective they were seeking to acheive.

 

On the other hand, there are upstart neophytes who are not siddha, yet are trying to translate shastra from an academic approach.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja was not referring to necessarily a "academic meaning of a term", by the use of the word, "denotation". Look at Bhagavad Gita in the tenth chapter, tesam satatam yuktanam... Srila Sridhar Maharaja considered Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation denotative and his translation connotative and they are quite different. I have to get off now, but take the time to compare these translations and you will get an idea of what he meant by denotative and connotative.

I just did a search on the words "connotative" and "denotative" in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's gita and those words are not used in the book anywhere. He uses the words "mundane connotation" once, but not the words you are putting in his mouth.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja, B.gita, Chapter 6 - 20-23

 

The state of perfect samadhi, or trance, is that in which the disciplined mind of the yogi gains detachment from even the slightest thought of mundane connotation. The yogi remains satisfied in the Lord alone, having directly seen the Supersoul by dint of his purified heart, and he experiences that happiness which is eternal, perceptible by the divine intelligence of the soul, and devoid of contact with the senses or sense objects; he never deviates from the intrinsic nature of the soul. By attaining to this state, he never considers any mundane acquisition as superior, and in the face of unbearable tribulation his heart never wavers. Therefore, by the very contact of distress, its absence is accomplished. Know certainly that such a state of perfect trance is defined as yoga. Such yoga should be practiced with perseverance and an untiring heart.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting on forums.

[Kripamoya]

 

Does having the now mercy-filled Ksamabuddhi on Sridhara's and Sudhir's side even it out at all?

 

 

 

Today 02:56 PM

Guest: Ouch! raga scores a point. (Yes, Virginia, Sparky has found time for us again.)

 

Really?

I think Raga just lost about a hundred points with his childish, envious nonsense.

 

When all else fails...........................

just show troll images and ride out on your high horse.

[Kripamoya]

 

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting on forums.

 

You just posted on the forum.

so, I guess you just made a liar out of yourself.

[Kripamoya]

Shakti-fan said:

 

I've noticed that Srila Sridhar Maharaja often gives the secondary or connotative meaning of a shloka.

 

 

I hate to spoil the party, but the connotative meaning IS NOT the secondary meaning amongst those who are really savvy with the term in it's practical usage in context.

 

The connotative meaning is the genuine meaning based upon actual knowledge and experience.

 

The denotation of a term is an empty shell when the connotation is neglected.

[Guest guest]

 

Take a look at the way Srila Prabhupada translated this word gaurava and how it is used in CC. The primary meaning of the word gaurava is pride, no matter what Madhava Maharaja or that other bengali speaking person writing on this thread may want you to believe.

 

gaurava — soberly; SB 10.36.29 (I don't understand this translation. It should be "importance" here.

gaurava-varjita — devoid of pride; CC Adi 4.129

gaurava-caryayā vihīnaḥ — without proud behavior; CC Adi 4.131

gaurava kariyā — giving much honor; CC Madhya 11.77

sa-gaurava-prīti — <b>affection with awe and reverence</b>; CC Madhya 11.146

gaurava — and honor; CC Madhya 19.123

sambhrama-gaurava — <b>awe and veneration</b>; CC Madhya 19.220

sambhrama-gaurava — <b>with awe and veneration</b>; CC Madhya 19.222

gaurava-sambhrama — <b>awe and veneration</b>; CC Madhya 19.224

gaurava — honor; CC Antya 4.112

gaurava-stuti — honorable prayers; CC Antya 4.163

guru-gaurava — <b>reverence</b>; Bs 5.55

 

Sorry, but this seems to confirm my translation, does it not?

[Kripamoya]

Here is a text book academic attempt at translating a verse of Srila Saraswati Goswami:

 

 

Harijana (The devotees) mAtalo (past tense. became intoxicated) kIrtana-raGge (in the joys of Harinam sankirtan.). gaurava-bhaGge (locative absolute construction; When the attitude of awe and reverence was broken), pUjala (they worshiped, i.e. followed) rAga-patha (the path of raganuga bhakti.)

 

Notice the academic notes and the intention to translate this verse of Saraswati Goswami without ever having known him, served him or taken direct personal siksha from him on this very verse.

 

This is exactly the disease that has infected a number of upstart devotees who have rejected Saraswati Thakur to accept some official initiation from the siddha-pranali school, though devoid of genuine humility and service, while endeavoring with some academic skills to penetrate the esoteric realm of the Gaudiya acharyas.

[SishirSaha]

sambrahma-gaurava is not plain gaurava, it is something else. Another valid meaning of gaurava is pratistha, by the way. In other words, ego.

[Guest guest]

 

I can't work out what all this mumbo jumbo about denotation and connotation is supposed to mean. I guess that is because I'm just a dumb boy from a sudra family. I never managed to get a PhD in what Prabhupada calls word jugglery. One thing I do know though is that Madhava Maharaja is the one who is picking up on secondary meanings when he translates that "pujala raga patha" verse his way. I would have thought even a neophyte ISKCON devotee who reads Prabhupada's books carefully could see that the words "pujala raga patha" mean "worship the path of raganuga bhakti". If you do puja or worship of the Deities this doing puja means you are doing vaidhi bhakti. You are putting yourself in a position where you are following strict rules and you are acting in a reverential way. Even a sudra like me can understand that.

 

 

Exactly

[Guest guest]

 

sambrahma-gaurava is not plain gaurava, it is something else. Another valid meaning of gaurava is pratistha, by the way. In other words, ego.

 

jadi boli, "eta amar gaurava" tahale uddeshya holo "e vastu amar garver vishay." kintu ami jadi apanake gauraver sahit seva kori, eta ki amar ahankar pramanita korche? Sambhrama evam gaurava paryaya shabda. Ek sathe bola hoy jemon banglay "seva-paricarya" ity adi pray suna jay.

 

tikakar "gaurava-caryadakshinya-seva" bole vyakhya kore. dakhinyer artha to bujhen nischay.

 

Jai hok, apni bheve dekhun. Ek din bujhben je amar vyakhya thik. Jai Radhe! Jak ekhane rakhlam, baba.

[SishirSaha]

 

jadi boli, "eta amar gaurava" tahale uddeshya holo "e vastu amar garver vishay." kintu ami jadi apanake gauraver sahit seva kori, eta ki amar ahankar pramanita korche? Sambhrama evam gaurava paryaya shabda. Ek sathe bola hoy jemon banglay "seva-paricarya" ity adi pray suna jay.

 

tikakar "gaurava-caryadakshinya-seva" bole vyakhya kore. dakhinyer artha to bujhen nischay.

 

Jai hok, apni bheve dekhun. Ek din bujhben je amar vyakhya thik. Jai Radhe! Jak ekhane rakhlam, baba.

You may imagine that one day I will think your translation is right but baba you will be waiting a long time for that day to come.

[Kripamoya]

In the real world, only a person who writes something or says something can really explain what he meant to say in his words or writings.

 

For example, I could say "I love that Jagat".

 

But, a close associate of mine could know that I was being sarcastic and was actually saying "I have some serious difference with Jagat".

 

What a statement denotes and what it connotes can be quite different.

 

So, literal, denotative, academic understandings of anything in life can be very deceptive.

 

Ultimately, only the person who says something really knows what he was actually trying to convey.

 

If he reveals the true meaning of his words to somone else, then that person can know also.

 

Anyone that thinks that the Gaudiya shastra can be understood from an academic approach is suffering from massive misconception.

 

Jagat is my favorite scholar.

(only I know what I was really saying here)

 

If I tell someone else, then they can know also.

 

trying to understand without consulting me can be very misleading.

[Guest guest]

 

gaurava — soberly; SB 10.36.29 (I don't understand this translation. It should be "importance" here.

gaurava-varjita — devoid of pride; CC Adi 4.129

gaurava-caryayā vihīnaḥ — without proud behavior; CC Adi 4.131

gaurava kariyā — giving much honor; CC Madhya 11.77

sa-gaurava-prīti — <b>affection with awe and reverence</b>; CC Madhya 11.146

gaurava — and honor; CC Madhya 19.123

sambhrama-gaurava — <b>awe and veneration</b>; CC Madhya 19.220

sambhrama-gaurava — <b>with awe and veneration</b>; CC Madhya 19.222

gaurava-sambhrama — <b>awe and veneration</b>; CC Madhya 19.224

gaurava — honor; CC Antya 4.112

gaurava-stuti — honorable prayers; CC Antya 4.163

guru-gaurava — <b>reverence</b>; Bs 5.55

 

Sorry, but this seems to confirm my translation, does it not?

 

Translation of the Verse

 

D. An interview with Sripad Madhava Maharaja

 

Sripad Bhaktivedanta Madhava Maharaja is a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Gosvami Maharaja. He is a siksa disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, and has been his personal servant and secretary since 1979. In the following interview of May 4, 2006, he was asked to share his understanding regarding statement 3 of the video/documentary:

 

[Question:] "The narrator of the documentary 'The Universal Teacher' quoted Srila Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada's verse, 'matala hari-jane visaya range, pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange.' Then he gave the translation, 'Always worship the path of raga-marga, spontaneous devotion. Do not rush ahead. Keep yourself a little distant and below. One who transgresses these instructions will be cast down. That was the motto of Gaudiya Matha.'

 

"Can you explain the verse further?"

 

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] "The English you quoted is not the translation. It is a statement by Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja. He did not mean for his statement to be the translation."

 

[Question:] "Then what is the translation?"

 

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] "'Pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange.' Raga-patha means spontaneous devotion. What is spontaneous devotion?

 

iste svarasiki ragah

paramavistata bhavet

tan-mayi ya bhaved bhaktih

satra ragatmikodita

 

["When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called ragatmika, or spontaneous devotional service." (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.272, and Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.150)]

 

 

 

"Raga-bhakti is the devotion situated in the hearts of the eternal associates of Krsna in Vraja. Here, the word gaurava-bhange refers to the breaking (bhange means break) of the awe and reverence mood (gaurava) by raga-bhakti. The word matala means complete absorption. Such liberated devotees have only one visaya (object of love), and that is Sri Krsna. The word range refers to Sri Krsna's many pastimes. Hari-jana means those who are the kith and kin or intimate associates of Sri Hari or Krsna. They are absorbed in visaya-range. Sri Krsna is the only visaya (the supreme Enjoyer of His devotees' devotion), and all others are asraya (the repository or container of devotion to Him). These devotees are absorbed in His pastimes.

 

"Because of the raga in their hearts, they have no awe and reverence mood. In this world they worship raga-patha; that is, the path of complete absorption in and attachment to Sri Krsna. By this they also teach us how to enter and then practice raganuga-bhakti.

 

"Why do we want to worship this path? We are now aspiring sadhaka-jivas, and our ultimate object is to attain raga-bhakti. For that we have to go step by step. By following the correct process we will gradually enter raganuga-bhakti, and then we will attain raga-bhakti."

[Guest guest]

Question: So, what is the acual meaning of gaurava-bhange?

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj: Gaurava means viddhi. Narayana is the gaurava Deity. But gaurava-bhange means the honourable guideline of the scriptures, and from that position we are always to give honour from afar to that raga-patha. Raga-marga is a very high plane. Why? Because in that plane there is only affectionate attachment with Krishna. That is the plane of affectionate service.

 

Question: In this verse what is the reference to gaurava-bhange? In what way is that verse referring to viddhi?

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj: Matala harijana kirtana range, and, pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange: this is our life's goal. Kirtan is the first stage and also the last stage. Kirtan can take us from the lowest level to the highest level, raga-marga. We start our practicing life through kirtan.

 

Mahaprabhu said: yajanti sankirttana prayair, yajanti hi sumedhasah

 

Yajanti means bhajanti: worshipping Mahaprabhu by the process of chanting the Hare Krishna Mahamantra and following the sankirtan movement.

 

Question: I have always understood that the verse, matala harijana kirtana range, pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange, means that our higest ideal is raga-marga, and, keeping it above us, we worship it from afar.

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj: The correct idea is that we must always think it to be above us, otherwise we shall go down to the sahajiya line.

[Guest guest]

Vaishnavism has many branches. Thank God for that. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu taught by example that worshiping in the mood of the gopis, most prominent amongst whom is Srimati Radharani, is the most delightful method of worshiping Krishna. (ramyA kAcid upAsanA vraja-vadhU-vargeNa yA kalpitA).

 

Now there is some difference of opinion about how that should be done. But let us just say that bhakti begins with hearing, chanting and remembering. This is pujala raga patha. There are other bhakti angas, but these are the main ones. So, we sahajiyas say,

 

vande nanda-vraja-strinam pada-renum abhikshnashah

yasam hari-kathodgirnam punati bhuvana-trayam

 

Hear and chant about the Vraja gopis. Their activities purify the three worlds. Remember the Vraja gopis.

 

What is the meaning of Pujala raga patha if you don't hear and chant about it? If you say, "Ignore the raga path, it is too elevated for us," is that puja? It is like the biblical story of the loans a rich man made to his servants. One servant took the money and buried it, while the others turned it into profit. When the first man came and showed his patron that he still had the same amount of money, unchanged, the patron was not pleased but found fault with him.

 

So this is your pujala raga path. Mahaprabhu came to give Vraja prema, but we will put Radharani on a pedestal and not hear about her, We won't chant about her, except in the most deferential way. We won't try to remember her, or serve her. We will simply keep her at a distance. And every time the subject comes up, we will criticize those who have become enchanted by her and who have felt the touch of her love and have responded to it. Who have fallen in love with Rupa Goswami's vision of bhakti and want to follow it.

 

Sure, learn the basics. There are many books besides Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and Ujjvala-nilamani. But don't be like Sridhar Maharaj and never read them, and then say arrogantly "I never read them, because I am a beginning student. (But I am better than everyone else, so my example is the one to follow.)" How can this be a point of pride? Where is the lobha, where is the eagerness to go on?

 

In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu 3.5.2, Rupa Prabhu says "nivrittanupayogitvat," that one of the reasons he is not developing the subject of madhura rasa in BRS is because it is "unsuitable for those in the renounced order of life." This is a very significant statement. It indicates that those who place a higher value on renunciation than on bhakti are disqualified from hearing about madhura rasa topics. This description to me fits the Gaudya Math attitude. The fear of "mundane sex" is greater than the desire to hear and chant about Radha and Krishna's divine love. Could there be any greater sushka vairagya than this?

 

I say to you followers of Sridhar, why not follow the path of Origen and chop your genitals off if being a eunuch for the kingdom of God is the only way to make progress?

 

My final word is this: Trust in your desire to follow in the footsteps of the gopis. Don't let the denigrators of the "gopi bhava club" distract you from the goal. This is the real thing.

[Guest guest]

That one felt the touch of Srimati Radharani's love is a fantastic claim. Obviously there is no arguing with such, if indeed its a fact. Srila Sridhara maharaja, or the Gaudiya Math for that matter, warns about shadow following of the raga path. Its not a Gaudiya Math creation - renunciation is recommended all over the 11th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, right after the liberal 10th canto. In the same way, in Bhagavad-gita, after the suggestion to abandon all types of religion, Krishna says this abadoning is not for everyone, but for those who have completed their experience in renounciation.

[Guest guest]

The whole point of bhakti is that it is a going away from one thing to accept another. It is the moving away from kama to prema. The Vaishnava argument against Mayavada is that moving <b>away from</b> is not enough, you have to go <b>to</b> something or the whole process is futile. Aruhya kricchrena param padam tatah patanty adho'nadritya yusmad-anghrayah. That is why Sri Rupa makes a distinction between phalgu and yukta vairagyas. And that is why the rasa lila ends by saying (the only place in the Bhagavatam that it does) that the only cure for the disease of kama is right there, in the Rasa lila.

[Guest guest]

Why should it be a "fantastic claim" to say that one has felt the touch of Radharani's love. What is the Chaitanya Charitamrita all about? Who is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu anyway and what did he come to give? Are you telling me that your guru parampara is not giving what Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came to give, namely the "touch of Radharani's love"?

[Guest guest]

Of course there is "shadow following." And who will argue with that? What is the point of discussing if you don't accept the sincerity of the other person? We are talking about the real thing here, not about the shadow. But it is better to follow the shadow than not follow at all. Would you not agree that Namabhasa is better than Namaparadha or no Nama at all?

[Guest guest]

Sincerity means action. Like Michael Jordan, one must just do it. Arjuna was sincere all over but practically Krishna had to do it for him. Who can speak for the "real" thing but those who have taken all the risks, no hesitation? The gopis did it. And that is precisely why the wise recommend that such high action remains above our heads. As for following the shadow as second best, I would say, no! Some prefer never a shadow. Better safe than sorry.